Talk:Pasta

History confusion

From the History section: The first concrete information on pasta products in Italy dates to the 13th or 14th centuries. In the 1st-century writings of Horace, lagana (sg.: laganum) were fine sheets of fried dough and were an everyday foodstuff. Writing in the 2nd century, Athenaeus of Naucratis provides a recipe for lagana which he attributes to the 1st-century Chrysippus of Tyana: sheets of dough made of wheat flour and the juice of crushed lettuce, then flavored with spices and deep-fried in oil. An early 5th-century cookbook describes a dish called lagana that consisted of layers of dough with meat stuffing, an ancestor of modern-day lasagna. However, the method of cooking these sheets of dough does not correspond to the modern definition of either a fresh or dry pasta product, which only had similar basic ingredients and perhaps the shape.

The first sentence states that the first concrete information on pasta products dates to the 13th or 14th centuries. The text then goes on to tell us of concrete information about pasta dating to earlier centuries, contradicting the first sentence. Finally, the last sentence says "Haha, fooled you, nobody would consider those to be pasta anyway." OK, I exaggerate, but this all needs to be fixed, along with the following paragraph going back in time one more time to discuss precursors to pasta. What of this isn't actually about pasta or its predecessors, and if there is any such thing, can we remove it? And can we push the remainder of it into chronological order? Largoplazo (talk) 03:32, 19 February 2026 (UTC)

Montanari has a good treatment that is unused here but is partially used in spaghetti. The idea is that there is a European tradition of fresh pasta and a Middle Eastern/African tradition of dried pasta. Around (before) the 12th century, dried pasta entered Italy via Sicily and became conceptually associated with the European tradition creating the broader concept of "pasta" even as foods themselves preceded the concepts. Not sure how much Serventi and Sabban have been superseded, there seemed some conflict as to the transport of pasta or pasta-like foods to Sicily. Would be really good if we had more Italian language sources. I have thought for a little while that a History of pasta page is needed; I lack the energy nor inclination to edit in this topic area for a time so it's all yours if you want it. It's important to recognise that the distinction between pasta and proto-pasta is subjective and should be attributed. Rollinginhisgrave (talk | edits) 04:01, 19 February 2026 (UTC)

I see no issue with the information at all, and I am baffled as to why you're confused. It's true that the info might not be organized ideally, but that's about it. I think this can be fixed easily by modifying the opening of the section to read as follows: "The first concrete information on pasta products in Italy dates to the 13th or 14th centuries, however there is evidence dating as far back as 400 BCE of people making pasta or precursor food items that may have evolved into what we now consider to be pasta."

Edit request

Evidence of Etruscans making pasta dates back to 400 BCE.^{[better source needed]} The first concrete information on pasta products in Italy dates to the 13th or 14th centuries.

Add source after prior source before . It has a source already, don't remove the tag.

(User:Wikipedian12512 helped User:Linux Luvver make this request) Linux Luvver (talk) 17:09, 22 May 2026 (UTC)

I'm not at all sure what you want here, as you have not followed the instruction in the request above, viz "please change X to Y"

No change to article made, and the "source" you suggest doesn't look reliable to me. - Walter Still not in the Epstein Files Ego 17:40, 22 May 2026 (UTC)

References

History of pasta in Italy

The article asserts in the lead paragraph, "evidence of Etruscans making pasta as early as 400 BCE in Italy." However, what looks like more reliable sources in the article refute this. The National Geographic article cited in the article asserts:

Many Italian writers have argued that a tomb from the fourth century B.C. bears a relief of pasta-making equipment, suggesting the dish was being enjoyed in pre-Roman Italy. Many food historians, however, dispute this interpretation of the relief. They point out that Roman-era references to anything resembling pasta are scarce, and that the dish probably took hold in Italy as a result of extensive Mediterranean trading in the Middle Ages. From the 13th century, references to pasta dishes—macaroni, ravioli, gnocchi, vermicelli—crop up with increasing frequency across the Italian Peninsula.

Serventi and Sabban's Pasta: the Story of a Universal Food, frequently cited throughout the article to establish the history of pasta in Europe, seems like a very scholarly work. It makes no mention of evidence of Etruscan manufacture of pasta. In fact, as mentioned in the article, Serventi and Sabban assert:

The first concrete information concerning pasta products in Italy dates from the thirteenth or fourteenth century.

Their work notes:

Europeans invented pasta late, even though conditions favored them. The Chinese, in contrast, found themselves in a totally opposite situation. Despite an agricultural environment that was anything but favorable to the manufacture of wheat-based pasta, they were familiar with wheat-based pasta long before the Europeans.

They provide cultural and religious explanations for why pasta took so long to develop in Europe. For a long time, wheat flour products remained either baked or fried bread-like foods, or were water-cooked mush and gruel.

If I read Serventi and Sabban correctly, there's little evidence of pre-Roman pasta making. There are various foods that bear some resemblance to pasta, such as fried flatbreads used to make lasagne. However, descriptions of what we would call pasta don't appear until the 12th century, with concrete information on pasta making in Europe appearing in the 13th or 14th centuries.

I would propose that this article removes the assertion of Etruscan pasta making, or at least point out the dubiousness of the claim, and point out how what Europeans know as pasta doesn't appear to have been made for about a thousand years after that claim. Davidwbaker (talk) 07:04, 27 May 2026 (UTC)

You done your fair share of research. Kudos! And yes, I strongly agree it's sloppy work. It's a fringe idea with little consensus. Someone took the casually made phrase - "some believe" to be supporting evidence when a dubious artefact overall doesn't prove it. If National Geographics, a respectable source, had wrote that passionate Italian writers' assertions were not backed by the experts and the evidence is weak - then if this is to be a good article again, it cannot have such fringe beliefs being shown in the lede. Food historians like Gil Marks wrote extensively that pasta wasn't really a thing in Italy until after at least 10th century. It is also accurate according to Marks that tho Europeans did cook with dough; it was mostly dry baked or fried to make bread, lasagna and dry bars etc before medieval era. Even by the medieval period, it wasn't at first pasta but just balls of dough cooked in stew or soup. Marks agreed with the others that what is meaningfully considered as pasta dishes came to Italy from Mediterranean trade with Sicily after tenth century. Not 4th century bc. That scholarly backed research should be what's in the lede.JaredMcKenzie (talk) 01:48, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

Can we reorder the sentences here?

This is the current state of a paragraph on this page: There is a legend that Marco Polo imported pasta from China. Rustichello da Pisa writes in his Travels that Marco Polo described a food similar to lagana. The way pasta reached Europe is unknown, however there are many theories, Jeffrey Steingarten asserts that Moors introduced pasta in the Emirate of Sicily in the 9th century, mentioning also that traces of pasta have been found in ancient Greece and that Jane Grigson believed the Marco Polo story to have originated in the 1920s or 1930s in an advertisement for a Canadian spaghetti company. Corections: The way pasta reached Europe is unknown, however there are many theories. There is a legend that Marco Polo imported pasta from China. Rustichello da Pisa writes in his Travels that Marco Polo described a food similar to lagana. Jeffrey Steingarten asserts that Moors introduced pasta in the Emirate of Sicily in the 9th century, mentioning also that traces of pasta have been found in ancient Greece and that Jane Grigson believed the Marco Polo story to have originated in the 1920s or 1930s in an advertisement for a Canadian spaghetti company. ~2026-35332-55 (talk) 14:30, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

Is pasta a type of noodle? (redux)

I know this has been discussed before. Some previous discussions: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]

There's a discrepancy — Most places on Wikipedia say that noodle is the more general term and pasta is a specific type of noodle, but this article doesn't mention it. Places on Wikipedia that mention it are: Pasta ("Italian noodles are generally referred to as pasta."), Template:Noodle, and the way that Category:Pasta is a member of Category:Noodles, and that Category:Pasta dishes is a member of Category:Noodle dishes.

(I would like to only discuss whether pasta is a type of noodle here; hopefully we can address the history questions in a different section, such as "Which came first?" or "Did one influence the other?")

I know there's some nuance here, such as regional differences in how the two words are used, that some things are considered pasta but not noodles (e.g. gnocchi, stuffed pasta). But I think that most places on Wikipedia acknowledge that one is usually a subset of the other.

--Hirsutism (talk) 21:40, 29 June 2026 (UTC)

They should be remain as different categories for easier navigation. I know there is no meaningful difference in the underlying strips of dough being boiled. I have eaten Spaghetti Bolognese. I have eaten Dandan noodles. If you take away the sauce and toppings, there is only very subtle differences like Asian noodles tend to be alkaline and more spring/chewier especially with hand pulled types, while Italian pasta values that firm al dente texture. But the overall dish is served very differently. Asian noodle recipes are noticably different to Western pasta dishes if you consider the sauce/toppings. For that reason, it's probably best to keep them separate imo since there is a stark difference in west pasta sauce recipes vs Asian noodle sauce recipes overall. JaredMcKenzie (talk) 02:11, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

The word "noodle" was never just for Asian varieties, though. It originally came into English from German language to describe German boiled dough-based foods like spätzle, schupfnudeln, bandnudeln, etc. The former two were independently developed, seperately from Italian pasta traditions, but bandnudeln is a convergence of German egg dough and Italian pasta-making traditions like tagliatelle. Also, the German word "nudel" is also used for Italian pasta.

Trying to seperate "pasta" from the category "noodle" doesn't really make sense. Noodle, much like the word dumpling, is a broad category that encompasses a lot of different traditions from different parts of the world - Some of which have clearly independent origins, some of which have common origins, and some of which blur the lines due to traditions that were originally seperate later crossing paths and exchanging influences. There are German noodles, Polish noodles, Russian noodles, Chinese noodles, Thai noodles, and more. Pasta is just another subcategory, and this is how it is identified in another languages like German and Chinese (where pasta is called 意大利面 or 意面 for short - "Italian noodles"). ~2026-43812-27 (talk) 16:14, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

You are not wrong. They are very close to being synonymous and this is English Wikipedia. We do indeed mention noodles for Western dishes too, albeit the word is more frequently used for Asian cuisine. I never once heard the word "pasta" used to describe any Asian dish and "pasta" does seem to be used more restrictively/exlusively for Western dishes. So maybe not a bad idea to make noodles the broad category and pasta as its subcategory.

We could organize it as; Noodles - and then subcategories can be Asian Noodles and European Noodles. And then a subcategory in European noodles can be Italian pasta, etc JaredMcKenzie (talk) 19:39, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

I would strongly resist European noodles. - Walter Ego 22:24, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

European noodles do exist tho - Czech nudle are explicitly called noodles and Lokshen are Ashkenazi Jewish egg noodles from Eastern Europe etc .My original point is that the two words aren't perfectly synonymous even though they overlap enormously. Pasta is a more culturally/geographically specific term, strongly associated with Italian cuisine. "Pasta" is an Italian loanword in Italian language. Other countries don't speak Italian so why some Western nations tend to call their local dough strings as noodles. But what would you suggest then if not "European noodles"? JaredMcKenzie (talk) 04:51, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

In my own experience, the Chinese word [意面/Italian noodles] refers to (almost exclusively), Spaghetti, and is seldom (if ever) used to describe other types of pasta.

For example, Macaroni gets a separate word, [通心粉/"hollow noodles"], and Fettuccine is [意大利扁面/"Italian flat noodles"]. 海盐沙冰 _{/ aka irisChronomia / Talk / Uploads} 13:10, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

They're orthogonal. In my opinion (just for perspective; reliable sources should be followed):

Pasta versus noodles

Product	Is a noodle	Is pasta	Is a dumpling
Spaghetti	Yes	Yes	No
Penne	Yes	Yes	No
Rigatoni	Yes	Yes	No
Ziti	Yes	Yes	No
Ravioli	No	Yes	Yes
Agnolotti	No	Yes	Yes
Lasagne (noodle)	Yes	Yes	No
Lasagne (dish)	No	Yes	No
Czech egg noodles	Yes	No	No
Lokshen	Yes	No	No
Kreplach	No	No	Yes
Matzah balls	No	No	Yes
Kadayif noodles	Yes	No	No
Ramen	Yes	No	No
Soba	Yes	No	No
Wontons	No	No	Yes
Shumai	No	No	Yes

Largoplazo (talk) 12:50, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

Nepal statement not supported by source

The statement "In Nepal, macaroni has been adopted and cooked in a Nepalese way. Boiled macaroni is sautéed along with cumin, turmeric, finely chopped green chillies, onions and cabbage." is not supported by its given source, a blog by someone whose family is from Dehli mentioning that they used to eat macaroni for brunch. I see that it was added here by User:KEmel49, so I guess the edit wasn't AI. It'd probably be better to put the citation needed statement back instead of having an unreliable source that doesn't mention Nepal. ~2026-35686-53 (talk) 22:37, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

The issue with food articles is that it's tricky to find quality sources even when the information is decent. I did a quick search and the info does appear to be substantiated and made in good faith with several South Asian vloggers talking about Nepali style Macaroni on YouTube. But you are correct that the other editor did not provide a source that minimally supports the information. As I could not find a reliable source from a reputable outlet to support the statement, I added a "citation needed" tag. JaredMcKenzie (talk) 11:26, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for looking for a citation!

However, the content is about cooking macaroni with spices. Do we believe the content is likely to be challenged? @~2026-35686-53 -- are you challenging the content? WP:MINREF. If the answer is no to both, could the solution be the simple removal of a citation that incorrectly equates "Desi" to "Nepalese"? Davidwbaker (talk) 16:47, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

I do not want to have a dismissive attitude towards South Asian pasta traditions and it does seem interesting that this country had a liking towards Western macaroni shapes for their home cooked meals - so I am not moving towards deleting it and am fine with that info staying as long as others are okay with it too. The issue is that if you Google "Nepali style macaroni", tho it does appear to be a legit thing at least among the south Asian vloggers, all the sources are YouTube or social media vlogs which is not a RS. Hence the tag has to remain. JaredMcKenzie (talk) 17:58, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

Sorry, I was unclear. I'm not proposing removing the content. I think it should remain. What I'm suggesting is that the article might read better without the "citation needed" tag and the content doesn't require an inline citation, per WP:MINREF. Davidwbaker (talk) 08:59, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

So you prefer I remove the citation tag? I do think it's fairly safe to say - given the widespread videos - that the recipe is def a thing in their culture. The odds of a large number of Nepali vloggers saying this is what they cooked at home with comments agreeing - it's very likely to be an actual thing.

I found somewhat more professional/popular Nepali chefs and cited their Nepali style pasta recipe videos and now removed the tag. JaredMcKenzie (talk) 22:58, 27 August 2026 (UTC)